If you play your D whistle, and the 'home' note of the tune (usually, but not necessarily the last note of the tune) is A (XXO OOO) you are playing a tune in Amixolydian. It's like A major, only with a G natural instead of a G sharp.
Ger The Rigger and the Red-haired Boy are examples of Amix tunes. I'm addled tonight and can't think of any more. Yeah, Willie Walsh's hornpipe. And loads of polkas that are "in A." If Mad Piper knows a bunch of tunes it would possiby be useful to give more examples.
The High Reel and The High Road To Linton are A Myxolydian tunes. So are Tom Billy's Jig (one of them, anyway) and Langstrom's Pony.
There are very many tunes in A Mix in the Highland bagpipe repertoire. These are confined to a range of eight notes. This restriction does not *have* to apply to tunes in A Mix, but it does seem to apply to those I've encountered more often than not.
Generally, if someone says a tune is in "A", they'll mean A mix. If they say A major, they mean A major, if the say A minor they mean A dorian, and they never mean A minor. Simple, no?
To be a bit more hepful than my last post, "mixolydian" is the name of the mode with the major seventh flattened. If you get out your circle of fifths and follow along, you'll see that it's the same set of notes as the key one step back on that circle - in this case, A mix has the same notes as D major. So your ordinary D whistle is well suited to A mixolydian. An A whistle will have access to the same notes, but if the tune uses the full range of the instrument, you'll probably have to rearrange things to fit on that whistle.
Generally speaking, though, you won't need anything by a D whistle to play proper trad tunes, unless you go to an E-flat session. If you can't play it on a D whistle, it's probably Scottish or something, and you can't play it on anything but a fiddle or a piano box anyway.
A little more on modes: the other mode commonly used in this music is dorian, that's like mixolydian but with the third flattened as well as the seventh. It's the same as the key two places back on the old circle of fifths, or as the key a whole step down. "A dorian" has the same notes as G major.
Dorian what people usually mean when they say a tune is in "minor", because the root chord is minor - if it's in A dorian, your guitarist will lead off with an A minor chord before getting hopelessly lost, whereas in A mixolydian the chord before the hopeless confusion will be an A or an A7.
"if someone said a tune is minor, wouldn't you assume they meant aeolian (natural minor)?"
I would take it to mean 'either Aeolian or Dorian'. The mode of a tune isn't always that clear cut - Cs, Fs and Gs can often drift between sharp and natural within one tune. But shouting "E minor" at least lets the backer know what chord to hit on th first note (usually ). Similarly, shouting "D" lets the backer know that the first chord is D major - they should be able to work out within a bar or two whether it's major *proper* or the Mixolydian mode. (There are, however, always some tunes that set out deliberately to make things difficult for tune player/backer communication by calling for an opening chord other than the home chord: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2268 http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/616 http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4290 ...)
Which tunes do you have in mind? IMO it's the other way round - Dorian is far more common in Irish music than Aeolian.
Frequently a tune wouldn't contain the 6th (c/c# in EMin/Dor, e.g.), in that case you could tell the difference by the harmonic structure. EDor has D major as a "leading harmony", while EMin has B major or minor. You could also try and invent variations containing the 6th and see if a major or minor 6th makes more sense.
I tend to hear more tunes in Emin than Edorian I reckon but I certainly hear a lot more in Adorian than Aminor. It is the F natural in A minor that makes the key less popular.
"if someone said a tune is minor, wouldn't you assume they meant aeolian (natural minor)?"
No, harmonically speaking, dorian is generally your safest bet, particularly in Am and Dm. Of course, if you're relying on this rule, you should expect to throw in some clams, because you're relying on a rule you got off the internet, but it's a better place to start than assuming that there's an F chord in that A minor tune, which always a bad idea. It's true that every once it a while there's a place where an F chord is the right one in an Am tune, but it's usually a really bad idea, and a bothersome common one.
We could run down the theory on this, but that's really boring for most people. Let's just say I meant what I said, and I'm happy to let others disagree, as long as you don't put an F under Star of Munster when I'm around.
just a personal preference but I prefer learning tunes from a single line of melody (& the rhythm within the melody)
No strong objection to others playing chords. Certainly I have learned plenty of tunes while listening to melody & accompaniment simultaneously. But there are those times when a chord player shapes the rhythm (& melody) differently than a group of melody players might.
Before anyone assumes I am bashing guitarists ~ I am not.
I have heard some brilliant backers. If you are one of those ~ thank you! If you have the slightest doubt (about your backing) you may get some insight from simply listening to a good melody player (particularly the rhythm) . But we already know that.
cheers!
Jon made a reference to considering the modes harmonically & just thought it might be worth mentioning something a wee bit more basic. It helps in learning (& playing) a tune to start with the melody & going from there.
RN - I think I've got no argument with you there. The language of modes, and the harmonic structures they suggest, is a useful tool, expecially if you're trying to understand what else can happen with the tunes, but if you're not learning tunes, all the chinstroking about aeolian this and dorian that is pretty useless.
Is that a 'yes' then NCA ?
I was wondering if the ancient greeks or medieval church would have agreed with last part of Jon K's statement, but thought that the first part of it was cleverly worded.
You have to be clever to discuss music theory in MustardLand. ;)
david_h, how's this for existential modal theory 101 ~
which came 1st the modal language or the suggested harmonic structures? Jeez, that sounded better in my head. 1st cup of coffee here.
Cheers & apologies to all who have had their full dose of java.
Thing is Random, every now an again I hear someone say something something about tunes that (on the surface) is straightforward yet does not involve chords or direct reference to harmonic structures. Recently, on the radio, I heard someone make an observation along the lines of 'many Scottish folk tunes are mixolydian and they typically do not use the flat seventh until the second part of the tune which gives it a stronger effect than if it was heard earlier'. Not to say that the people saying these these things are not clever of course.
Click on my user name, and look at my profile for some basic info on the chords and modes most common in The Music. It is intended to get people started in their efforts to understand the harmonic structures that provide an underpinning for the tunes. I used to retype the info whenever someone asked a question relating to the subject but have either gotten lazy, or more efficient, in my old age.
When I play "Old Joe Clark" with the old time folk music group, in the first half of the tune we use the chords A Major and E Major. In the second half of the tune, we use A major and G major. I am not quite sure what mode this is but that is how we play it.
Amixolydian
Amixolydian
What does Amixolydian mean? What Whistle key would play this tune?
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Mad Piper
Re: Amixolydian
If you play your D whistle, and the 'home' note of the tune (usually, but not necessarily the last note of the tune) is A (XXO OOO) you are playing a tune in Amixolydian. It's like A major, only with a G natural instead of a G sharp.
Hope that helps ...
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Amixolydian
I always thought it was a disease that helped to wipe out the rabbit population.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Amixolydian
http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS/modes.htm
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Amixolydian
Close. That was D myxomatosis. A completely different key. Normally used for songs concerning Bunny Prince Charlie.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Amixolydian
Ger The Rigger and the Red-haired Boy are examples of Amix tunes. I'm addled tonight and can't think of any more. Yeah, Willie Walsh's hornpipe. And loads of polkas that are "in A." If Mad Piper knows a bunch of tunes it would possiby be useful to give more examples.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Amixolydian
The High Reel and The High Road To Linton are A Myxolydian tunes. So are Tom Billy's Jig (one of them, anyway) and Langstrom's Pony.
There are very many tunes in A Mix in the Highland bagpipe repertoire. These are confined to a range of eight notes. This restriction does not *have* to apply to tunes in A Mix, but it does seem to apply to those I've encountered more often than not.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Amixolydian
Generally, if someone says a tune is in "A", they'll mean A mix. If they say A major, they mean A major, if the say A minor they mean A dorian, and they never mean A minor. Simple, no?
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Amixolydian
Mad Piper, there was a recent posting at Mudcat explaining modes which I found helpful.
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123593&messages=95#2724630
Look for a post by "Lox" dated 15 Sep 09 - 01:05 PM
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by All Moldy
Re: Amixolydian
Lots of good advice above. As ethical blend said it is a tune with a root note of A and 2 sharps - C and F.
BTW the Highland pipes have 9 notes not 8.
G A B C# D E F# G A
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Amixolydian
To be a bit more hepful than my last post, "mixolydian" is the name of the mode with the major seventh flattened. If you get out your circle of fifths and follow along, you'll see that it's the same set of notes as the key one step back on that circle - in this case, A mix has the same notes as D major. So your ordinary D whistle is well suited to A mixolydian. An A whistle will have access to the same notes, but if the tune uses the full range of the instrument, you'll probably have to rearrange things to fit on that whistle.
Generally speaking, though, you won't need anything by a D whistle to play proper trad tunes, unless you go to an E-flat session. If you can't play it on a D whistle, it's probably Scottish or something, and you can't play it on anything but a fiddle or a piano box anyway.
A little more on modes: the other mode commonly used in this music is dorian, that's like mixolydian but with the third flattened as well as the seventh. It's the same as the key two places back on the old circle of fifths, or as the key a whole step down. "A dorian" has the same notes as G major.
Dorian what people usually mean when they say a tune is in "minor", because the root chord is minor - if it's in A dorian, your guitarist will lead off with an A minor chord before getting hopelessly lost, whereas in A mixolydian the chord before the hopeless confusion will be an A or an A7.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Amixolydian
"Langstrom's Pony"
May 25th 2001 by Jeremy
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/61
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
nicholas already had it.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Amixolydian
Jon - if someone said a tune is minor, wouldn't you assume they meant aeolian (natural minor)? i can think of more tunes in Emin than Edor...
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by rtarnell
Re: Amixolydian
"if someone said a tune is minor, wouldn't you assume they meant aeolian (natural minor)?"
). Similarly, shouting "D" lets the backer know that the first chord is D major - they should be able to work out within a bar or two whether it's major *proper* or the Mixolydian mode. (There are, however, always some tunes that set out deliberately to make things difficult for tune player/backer communication by calling for an opening chord other than the home chord:
I would take it to mean 'either Aeolian or Dorian'. The mode of a tune isn't always that clear cut - Cs, Fs and Gs can often drift between sharp and natural within one tune. But shouting "E minor" at least lets the backer know what chord to hit on th first note (usually
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2268
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/616
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4290 ...)
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Amixolydian
"i can think of more tunes in Emin than Edor..."
Which tunes do you have in mind? IMO it's the other way round - Dorian is far more common in Irish music than Aeolian.
Frequently a tune wouldn't contain the 6th (c/c# in EMin/Dor, e.g.), in that case you could tell the difference by the harmonic structure. EDor has D major as a "leading harmony", while EMin has B major or minor. You could also try and invent variations containing the 6th and see if a major or minor 6th makes more sense.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Jürgen
Re: Amixolydian
I tend to hear more tunes in Emin than Edorian I reckon but I certainly hear a lot more in Adorian than Aminor. It is the F natural in A minor that makes the key less popular.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Amixolydian
"if someone said a tune is minor, wouldn't you assume they meant aeolian (natural minor)?"
No, harmonically speaking, dorian is generally your safest bet, particularly in Am and Dm. Of course, if you're relying on this rule, you should expect to throw in some clams, because you're relying on a rule you got off the internet, but it's a better place to start than assuming that there's an F chord in that A minor tune, which always a bad idea. It's true that every once it a while there's a place where an F chord is the right one in an Am tune, but it's usually a really bad idea, and a bothersome common one.
We could run down the theory on this, but that's really boring for most people. Let's just say I meant what I said, and I'm happy to let others disagree, as long as you don't put an F under Star of Munster when I'm around.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Amixolydian
just a personal preference but I prefer learning tunes from a single line of melody (& the rhythm within the melody)
No strong objection to others playing chords. Certainly I have learned plenty of tunes while listening to melody & accompaniment simultaneously. But there are those times when a chord player shapes the rhythm (& melody) differently than a group of melody players might.
Before anyone assumes I am bashing guitarists ~ I am not.
I have heard some brilliant backers. If you are one of those ~ thank you! If you have the slightest doubt (about your backing) you may get some insight from simply listening to a good melody player (particularly the rhythm) . But we already know that.
cheers!
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Amixolydian
That is all well and good Random but unless I am missing something I am not sure what it has to do with this thread. Maybe I need more sleep.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Amixolydian
Jon made a reference to considering the modes harmonically & just thought it might be worth mentioning something a wee bit more basic. It helps in learning (& playing) a tune to start with the melody & going from there.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
~
. . . It helps *me* in learning . . . a tune . . .
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Amixolydian
RN - I think I've got no argument with you there. The language of modes, and the harmonic structures they suggest, is a useful tool, expecially if you're trying to understand what else can happen with the tunes, but if you're not learning tunes, all the chinstroking about aeolian this and dorian that is pretty useless.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Amixolydian
I a melody is played without accompaniment are there are any chords ?
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by David50
Re: Amixolydian
If a ...
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by David50
Re: Amixolydian
If a tree falls down and hits the logger and there is no one else around to hear it does he still cry out in pain?
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Amixolydian
Not if he's knocked unconscious.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Amixolydian
Is that a 'yes' then NCA ?
I was wondering if the ancient greeks or medieval church would have agreed with last part of Jon K's statement, but thought that the first part of it was cleverly worded.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by David50
Re: Amixolydian
You have to be clever to discuss music theory in MustardLand. ;)
david_h, how's this for existential modal theory 101 ~
which came 1st the modal language or the suggested harmonic structures? Jeez, that sounded better in my head. 1st cup of coffee here.
Cheers & apologies to all who have had their full dose of java.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Amixolydian
"You have to be clever to discuss music theory in MustardLand. ;)"
...or a kamikaze pilot!
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Amixolydian
Perhaps Jeremy could change the background color to flames for controversial threads. ;)
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Amixolydian
as in shot down in flames?
nah, y'can do it youself cant cha?
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Amixolydian
DD ~ you're breaking up. have another hit . . .
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Amixolydian
No problem dude! Feels pretty much altogether if you ask me.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Amixolydian
Mate, we're a long way west of california, in Asia, got me? Whatz that tell ya. We a bit like independent Amercans. LOL.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Amixolydian
Thing is Random, every now an again I hear someone say something something about tunes that (on the surface) is straightforward yet does not involve chords or direct reference to harmonic structures. Recently, on the radio, I heard someone make an observation along the lines of 'many Scottish folk tunes are mixolydian and they typically do not use the flat seventh until the second part of the tune which gives it a stronger effect than if it was heard earlier'. Not to say that the people saying these these things are not clever of course.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by David50
Re: Amixolydian
Click on my user name, and look at my profile for some basic info on the chords and modes most common in The Music. It is intended to get people started in their efforts to understand the harmonic structures that provide an underpinning for the tunes. I used to retype the info whenever someone asked a question relating to the subject but have either gotten lazy, or more efficient, in my old age.
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Amixolydian
That's a very nice explanation on your profile there. Good stuff.
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Amixolydian
When I play "Old Joe Clark" with the old time folk music group, in the first half of the tune we use the chords A Major and E Major. In the second half of the tune, we use A major and G major. I am not quite sure what mode this is but that is how we play it.
# Posted on October 5th 2009 by fauxcelt