I’m interested in learning some ITM tunes coming out of Irish communities outside Ireland. Being in the states, I know a little bit about Cape Breton and Appalachian traditions pulling from ITM, but I don’t know much at all about communities in Europe, South America, or Australia. I’m curious also about how ITM influenced the music of other countries. I was astonished to read that Argentina had the 5th largest settlement of displaced Irish people and I know next to nothing about them or their music. When I search for tunes with place names in them, I get limited results.
Does anyone have some tunes to point me to?
Before the mud starts flying:
This isn’t an exclusive interest.
I love ITM from Ireland as well.
I don’t play Bodhran.
You refer to 'ITM' tunes coming from Irish communities outside Ireland. To my mind, the Cape Breton and Apallachian traditions are a separate issue - whilst some tunes in these traditions are undoubtedly of Irish origin (although Cape Breton is predominanly Scottish - and the Apallachian tradition, perhaps English, Scots and Irish in equal measure), these tunes can no longer be considered 'ITM'.
There are, of course, Irish communities around the world, comprising Irish-born, 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation immigrants, which still have a lot of contact with Ireland - most notably in the USA, Canada, UK and Australia, but no doubt elsewhere in the world as well.
There are many non-Irish born musicians in these communities who have composed tunes, to a greater or lesser degree, 'in the tradition'. Here are a few that spring to mind:
Liz Carroll (USA)
Jimmy Keane (USA)
Tony Sullivan (Macclesfield, UK)
Tom McElvogue (Newcastle, UK)
Michael McGoldrick (Manchester, UK)
Colin Farrell (Manchester, UK)
Mick O'Connor (London, UK)
Some of their tunes have been absorbed into the tradition and are now as likely to be heard in sessions in Ireland as anywhere else.
There are many, many more that I can't think of at the moment.
There were also a number of notable Irish-born composer/musicians who emigrated to the US in early C20th and spent most of their lives there; Ed Reavy, Paddy Killoran and Larry Redican are two that spring to mind, although I don't know whether it is known which of their tunes were composed before their emigration and which after'. (I don't know much about the output of Michael Coleman or James Morrison as composers).
I believe there's an O'Higgins Province in Argentina or Chile. Also that there's a plant from down there called O'Higginsia, and others that have "o'higginsii" as the second part of their Latin name.
Bernado O'Higgins was the first supreme ruler of Chile after he and others had won a war of independence from Spain in the early c19. His father was Irish, in the employ (as far as I can see) of the Spanish in that part of the world.
Michael Coleman James Morrison, Paddy Killoran, Ed Reavy (in particular), Andy McGann, Brian Conway, Kathleen Collins, Liz Carrol (again, a very prolific composer of tunes). A few famous fiddlers, members of the Irish diaspora, on the east coast of the USA alone. Lots of tunes associated with these players, many of them probably composed, or as good as composed, by them. What's the difference between an Irish tune composed in Birmingham by a fiddler from Ireland, than a tune composed in Cavan by a fiddler from Philadelphia?
Many Irishmen evidently left for the Catholic countries generally, in the c16, 17, 18, often to serve as soldiers there. I get the impression that on the whole (if they survived / married) they integrated with the host society and didn't generate Irish communities apart, except by replacement in army units or religious orders, e.g.
But who knows. Anything can happen out there on the back of the map. There could have been legions of Irish Jesuits, e.g., playing diddly 24/7 in secret valleys and jungles 1000000000 miles from the nearest Pope.
There's no real distinction to be made between tunes within the Irish tradition composed outside of Ireland, and those within the Irish tradition composed within Ireland, especially considering the centrality of irish emigration to the culture and economy of Ireland in the last several hundred years. If you're asking about cultural cross-over, that's a different thing altogether
I don't think Irish music influenced other cultures particularly. Where it's been successful it has tended towards dominance and replacement. Like a virus. Muhahahaha!
Newfoundland of course. There are collections of fiddle tunes made by Kelly Russell and Christina Smith and many recordings of traditional players on both fiddle and accordion. And also the many variations on the Irish tradition in Quebecois music. I don't think that could be called "dominance and replacement."
There was a strong session scene in England from the 50s when working people from various paerts of Ireland met in 'Irish' pubs. There was a lot of work after the war but still a certain amount of segregation.
Paddy in the Smoke and music from the Favourite are good records.
This music injected a lively instrumental element into the British folk scene and , incidentally, sparked a renewed interest in our own instrumental traditions.
It also fed back to Ireland via the folk club influence
In the original post you mentioned your interest in tune names which would indicate that an Irish tune had been composed in another country. The one that immediately pops to mind is the Paddy Killoran composition "The Maid of Mount Kisco."
"In the original post you mentioned your interest in tune names which would indicate that an Irish tune had been composed in another country. "
I missed that bit. Here are a few more:
The New York (several jigs and reels by this name)
The Flowers of Brooklyn (Billy McComiskey)
The Charleston (Reel by Jimmy Keane - not the popular dance/song of the same name)
The Butlers of Glen Avenue (Tony Sullivan - named after a family in the street where he grew up)
The Belles of St. Louis (variant of The Belles of Tipperary?)
The Chicago (reel and jig)
The Green Fields of America
The London Lasses
(All of the above are in the database)
Some of these were undoubtedly composed outside Ireland. Others (e.g. The Chicago, The London Lasses, The Belles of St. Louis) were probably old tunes from Ireland that emigrated with their players and took on the names of the places where they settled.
The Green Fields of America - I'm not sure whether this one is of Irish origin at all. There is at least one variant of it in the Apallachian fiddle repertoire. But the title suggests emigration, or contemplation of it.
The Belles Of St. Louis (as recorded by De Dannan) is the same as The Hawk, a tune attributed to the Scottish-born Tyneside fiddler James Hill. I don't know whether the attribution is certain or not. Hill died in or around 1853.
Here's a bit of influence on Greek music: Brendan Behan's play "The Hostage" was adapted for performance there in Greek some 50-odd years ago, and songs in this version - I assume originally Behan's - were translated and then set to music by Mikis Theodorakis. One, The Laughing Boy, is very well known in Greece (the Greek for its title is To Yelasto Pethi). It is heard to good advantage in the 1969 film "Z", a film about a political murder that was an intentional comment on the military junta running Greece at the time the film was made.
I haven't got round to reading or seeing The Hostage, so don't know anything about (any) songs in it or how their tunes go in the original. I don't know if Theodorakis's tune for TYP wasn't actually lifted - I imagine it could carry English lyrics as well or almost as well as it does Greek ones.
Greeks have readily identified with Ireland because of comparable histories.
The great Greek writer Nikos Kazantzakis ("Zorba The Greek", etc.) lost his virginity to an Irish girl in a church. It says so in his autobiography. I think it was in a church, anyway.
I haven't got the book and can't remember. Probably a Greek Orthodox one. That would make it less of a sin for her, or maybe not a sin at all, as traditionally Catholicism regarded the Orthodox as low-life heretics although they've worked hard to repair relations of late. Anyway, she was obviously out on a long leash.
Kazantzakis's origins were in Crete, which is one of the bits of Greece that spent some time under Venetian control (others were Rhodes and co. near the Turkish coast, and Corfu and co. off the Greek West coast). These places did / do retain sizeable Catholic populations. But Kazantzakis despised the (Orthodox) Church in at least some of its aspects, and was more into blood and soil and stuff, though not implicated in fascism or Nazism as far as I know (he lived through that period). He's comparable to D.H. Lawrence - splendid at best, but curdly and obsessive a lot of the time.
Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
I’m interested in learning some ITM tunes coming out of Irish communities outside Ireland. Being in the states, I know a little bit about Cape Breton and Appalachian traditions pulling from ITM, but I don’t know much at all about communities in Europe, South America, or Australia. I’m curious also about how ITM influenced the music of other countries. I was astonished to read that Argentina had the 5th largest settlement of displaced Irish people and I know next to nothing about them or their music. When I search for tunes with place names in them, I get limited results.
Does anyone have some tunes to point me to?
Before the mud starts flying:
This isn’t an exclusive interest.
I love ITM from Ireland as well.
I don’t play Bodhran.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by abuteague
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Here's a good place to start!
"Bemvindo, bienvenido, fáilte romhat and welcome to the website of the Society for Irish Latin American Studies (SILAS)..."
http://www.irlandeses.org/
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Extremely interesting website. Thanks.
It has many stories and compelling history. Good reading.
It lacks tunes though.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by abuteague
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
You refer to 'ITM' tunes coming from Irish communities outside Ireland. To my mind, the Cape Breton and Apallachian traditions are a separate issue - whilst some tunes in these traditions are undoubtedly of Irish origin (although Cape Breton is predominanly Scottish - and the Apallachian tradition, perhaps English, Scots and Irish in equal measure), these tunes can no longer be considered 'ITM'.
There are, of course, Irish communities around the world, comprising Irish-born, 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation immigrants, which still have a lot of contact with Ireland - most notably in the USA, Canada, UK and Australia, but no doubt elsewhere in the world as well.
There are many non-Irish born musicians in these communities who have composed tunes, to a greater or lesser degree, 'in the tradition'. Here are a few that spring to mind:
Liz Carroll (USA)
Jimmy Keane (USA)
Tony Sullivan (Macclesfield, UK)
Tom McElvogue (Newcastle, UK)
Michael McGoldrick (Manchester, UK)
Colin Farrell (Manchester, UK)
Mick O'Connor (London, UK)
Some of their tunes have been absorbed into the tradition and are now as likely to be heard in sessions in Ireland as anywhere else.
There are many, many more that I can't think of at the moment.
There were also a number of notable Irish-born composer/musicians who emigrated to the US in early C20th and spent most of their lives there; Ed Reavy, Paddy Killoran and Larry Redican are two that spring to mind, although I don't know whether it is known which of their tunes were composed before their emigration and which after'. (I don't know much about the output of Michael Coleman or James Morrison as composers).
So, that might give you somewhere to start from.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
I believe there's an O'Higgins Province in Argentina or Chile. Also that there's a plant from down there called O'Higginsia, and others that have "o'higginsii" as the second part of their Latin name.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Yes, if you're looking for country of origin on tunes you're going to have to do some grinding.
Incidentally, the Mexican surname of Obregon is the Spanish version of O'Brien.
For study of Irish music in Boston I reccomend this:
http://www.upne.com/1-55553-610-7.html
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Bernado O'Higgins was the first supreme ruler of Chile after he and others had won a war of independence from Spain in the early c19. His father was Irish, in the employ (as far as I can see) of the Spanish in that part of the world.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
("Bernardo", I meant.)
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Here is a link from a past discussion: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/argentinians-come-to-dance-at-the-crossroads-705118.html
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by abuteague
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Michael Coleman James Morrison, Paddy Killoran, Ed Reavy (in particular), Andy McGann, Brian Conway, Kathleen Collins, Liz Carrol (again, a very prolific composer of tunes). A few famous fiddlers, members of the Irish diaspora, on the east coast of the USA alone. Lots of tunes associated with these players, many of them probably composed, or as good as composed, by them. What's the difference between an Irish tune composed in Birmingham by a fiddler from Ireland, than a tune composed in Cavan by a fiddler from Philadelphia?
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Many Irishmen evidently left for the Catholic countries generally, in the c16, 17, 18, often to serve as soldiers there. I get the impression that on the whole (if they survived / married) they integrated with the host society and didn't generate Irish communities apart, except by replacement in army units or religious orders, e.g.
But who knows. Anything can happen out there on the back of the map. There could have been legions of Irish Jesuits, e.g., playing diddly 24/7 in secret valleys and jungles 1000000000 miles from the nearest Pope.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
There's no real distinction to be made between tunes within the Irish tradition composed outside of Ireland, and those within the Irish tradition composed within Ireland, especially considering the centrality of irish emigration to the culture and economy of Ireland in the last several hundred years. If you're asking about cultural cross-over, that's a different thing altogether
I don't think Irish music influenced other cultures particularly. Where it's been successful it has tended towards dominance and replacement. Like a virus. Muhahahaha!
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Newfoundland of course. There are collections of fiddle tunes made by Kelly Russell and Christina Smith and many recordings of traditional players on both fiddle and accordion. And also the many variations on the Irish tradition in Quebecois music. I don't think that could be called "dominance and replacement."
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by nfldbox
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
There was a strong session scene in England from the 50s when working people from various paerts of Ireland met in 'Irish' pubs. There was a lot of work after the war but still a certain amount of segregation.
Paddy in the Smoke and music from the Favourite are good records.
This music injected a lively instrumental element into the British folk scene and , incidentally, sparked a renewed interest in our own instrumental traditions.
It also fed back to Ireland via the folk club influence
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
In the original post you mentioned your interest in tune names which would indicate that an Irish tune had been composed in another country. The one that immediately pops to mind is the Paddy Killoran composition "The Maid of Mount Kisco."
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by alec b
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
"In the original post you mentioned your interest in tune names which would indicate that an Irish tune had been composed in another country. "
I missed that bit. Here are a few more:
The New York (several jigs and reels by this name)
The Flowers of Brooklyn (Billy McComiskey)
The Charleston (Reel by Jimmy Keane - not the popular dance/song of the same name)
The Butlers of Glen Avenue (Tony Sullivan - named after a family in the street where he grew up)
The Belles of St. Louis (variant of The Belles of Tipperary?)
The Chicago (reel and jig)
The Green Fields of America
The London Lasses
(All of the above are in the database)
Some of these were undoubtedly composed outside Ireland. Others (e.g. The Chicago, The London Lasses, The Belles of St. Louis) were probably old tunes from Ireland that emigrated with their players and took on the names of the places where they settled.
The Green Fields of America - I'm not sure whether this one is of Irish origin at all. There is at least one variant of it in the Apallachian fiddle repertoire. But the title suggests emigration, or contemplation of it.
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Lest we forget 'off to California'. Story goes that the Chief found it there.
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
"Story goes that the Chief found it there."
I thought the same might be true of The Chicago Reel, that being where he collected most of his tunes.
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Don't forget the Providence - more details in the tune section.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
O P C
Us Chicago Kids show up everywhere.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
The Belles Of St. Louis (as recorded by De Dannan) is the same as The Hawk, a tune attributed to the Scottish-born Tyneside fiddler James Hill. I don't know whether the attribution is certain or not. Hill died in or around 1853.
Here's a bit of influence on Greek music: Brendan Behan's play "The Hostage" was adapted for performance there in Greek some 50-odd years ago, and songs in this version - I assume originally Behan's - were translated and then set to music by Mikis Theodorakis. One, The Laughing Boy, is very well known in Greece (the Greek for its title is To Yelasto Pethi). It is heard to good advantage in the 1969 film "Z", a film about a political murder that was an intentional comment on the military junta running Greece at the time the film was made.
I haven't got round to reading or seeing The Hostage, so don't know anything about (any) songs in it or how their tunes go in the original. I don't know if Theodorakis's tune for TYP wasn't actually lifted - I imagine it could carry English lyrics as well or almost as well as it does Greek ones.
Greeks have readily identified with Ireland because of comparable histories.
The great Greek writer Nikos Kazantzakis ("Zorba The Greek", etc.) lost his virginity to an Irish girl in a church. It says so in his autobiography. I think it was in a church, anyway.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Thanks everyone. This is great.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by abuteague
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
Were Kazantzakis and his girl in a Catholic church or a Greek Orthodox one ?
I think we need to know.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Tunes of the Irish Diaspora
I haven't got the book and can't remember. Probably a Greek Orthodox one. That would make it less of a sin for her, or maybe not a sin at all, as traditionally Catholicism regarded the Orthodox as low-life heretics although they've worked hard to repair relations of late. Anyway, she was obviously out on a long leash.
Kazantzakis's origins were in Crete, which is one of the bits of Greece that spent some time under Venetian control (others were Rhodes and co. near the Turkish coast, and Corfu and co. off the Greek West coast). These places did / do retain sizeable Catholic populations. But Kazantzakis despised the (Orthodox) Church in at least some of its aspects, and was more into blood and soil and stuff, though not implicated in fascism or Nazism as far as I know (he lived through that period). He's comparable to D.H. Lawrence - splendid at best, but curdly and obsessive a lot of the time.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by nicholas