After many years of bashing at a fiddle I have found that the more I play with other people, the more I improve. (Compared to playing alone).
This is a maybe 'hidden' aspect of a good session. It might appear that everyone knows every tune in the universe, but in reality there is plenty of learning and experimentation going on.
I am lucky enough to attend a session where patience is shown to those who wish to try a new tune. I dont always get it right first time out, but I find that the tunes I remember are those that I have tried to bring to the session.
It is another important part of the tradition - the learning while sharing!
. . . you've just visualised the very 'Welcome . . . ' mission statement Jeremy's flagged up for anyone venturing onto this site
the secret of the 'good session' is out to play _ the 'mixture', the 'passing on' and 'exchange' of both old and new, equals to 'sharing' (as you said) this living tradition with everyone
I have certainly learnt most of my music through going to sessions. Certainly my guitar style owes a lot to watching and learning from guitarists and other musicians in some of the very excellent sessions I had the privilege to join early on. Unfortunately these were not always the sessions where beginners should turn up and join in and despite most of them being very patient and nice about it I have no doubt looking back now that I was a pain in the butt and a curse on them whenever I turned up. If any of you look at this site (and I am fairly sure you don't) I am really sorry for all of that!
I would now recommend folk treading more carefully than I did but if you can find the right session for you where you get a warm welcome and are given the opportunity to learn then it is a great thing.
This is exactly what I was getting at in the thread further below.
It's pointless playing on your own unless you are practising tunes and bits you already know. And playing along with recordings is no good. It's an aural tradition, you learn by listening and INTERACTING with others. You can't interact with ABC, dots or records.
I was gonna say "oral" and try and tie it in with my thread below but thought better of it.
Why isn't playing along to recordings useful?
I work from home listening to Clare FM as often as I can, with whistle and box at the ready. As soon as a good tune comes along, I am playing along.
Isn't that as good as a session?
If you listen to a couple of hours of music you haven't heard before, don't you get steeped in the tradition?
It will certainly benefit you, once you are actually at the session.
Too many people come along to sessions who can't accompany an unknown tune on a recording.
I learned through playing along with tapes I made of our local session. Sort of like playing along with records, but a step nearer the real thing. Then when I started sessioning I found I got lots of helpful advice from other sessioneers. I play the bodhrán and the regular sessioneers told and showed me what they wanted from a decent session player. Invaluable. Then I started listening to recordings of other bodhrán players (some recommended by folk at the session)
So yes, I've found the same as you. The more I play with others the more I improve. Also played in ceilidh bands and in a semi-pro world-music band for some years. I'm just looking for a Prog Death Metal Band who need a bodhrán player now! Playing in different groups and contexts for different sorts of music just helps the learning and the enjoyment. And adds something to my session playing, even if it's realising I need to keep it simple and follow the tune. Or if some spontaneous arrangement begins to emerge, to be able to flow with it.
geoffwright - I don't think anyone is implying that playing along with recorded tunes isn't useful. However, I think it was SWFL who once pointed out that some folks can become mentally reliant upon a recorded version, and when they hear variations in a live session - it throws them off. Nothing, (in my worthless opinion), advances a person's session playing ability like playing with other live, and unpredictable, musicians. You simply have to listen, blend and adjust.
geoffwright said re. playing along with the wireless "isn't that just as good as a seesion?"
Well, NO IT ISN'T!
Playing along with recordings (or even broadcasts oflive "performances") is one way traffic. You don't ever just "play along" because you influence, no matter how slightly, the other people diddleying and therefore it is a two way communication.
One can pick up broad ideas from listening passively but it is not as good as a session!
Get down that pub!
The live part is probably the best. In between sets you can talk, the more experienced guys ask you what the h**l you playing somewhere and run through how they do it.
Playing along with cds etc can help get you to speed, but you go so fast, you don't listen or have someone listening to you. Only goal is to keep up.
As several others have advised, it is better to go to an actual session and try to play music with other musicians no matter how badly you mess up or make mistakes. However, first I would recommend listening and observing carefully at the local session before you try to participate. This method(?) has worked very well for me no matter what type or genre of music I have been playing.
Oh no Jusa, remembering things I've said? Nothing but trouble.
I can't tell you how many times I've learned a tune from a recording which promptly went out the window as soon as I played it along with other folks. Right out the window. It's a rough outline. The 'actual' version of the tune is the ones your friends are playing at the session.
Even worse, the session in the next area over also has their own 'actual' version of the tune.
Then, horrors! You come across another recording of the tune, and it's different again! It's neither the one you learned from the first recording, nor the one your friends play, and it's not the one the folks in that session in the next County play! AAA!!!
So yes, the only way possible to develop the skill of adjusting your playing while listening to what others are playing is...
To play with others! Nicely, hopefully, or we'll put you in time out.
…and really, that’s the fun. Then your skill at variation and ornaments will increase, because you’re able to play along with any version of tune X you come across, and then you’ll be able to do that with just about any tune, and with anyone, anywhere, with any luck.
This is the improvisation, not improvising tunes, but literally inventing the tune every time you play it because you are being such a good listening musician, and you are adjusting your playing on the fly to what you hear the other musicians playing. Holy cow, you are playing music ‘together’, not simply ‘at the same time’. Ha ha.
You are being a good musician who listens closely to all the other musicians you are playing with, aren’t you?
Yes, SWFL Fiddler, we remember everything you have said and we will send it all to you in the middle of the night so it can haunt you like a ghost while it moans in your ears.
"As several others have advised, it is better to go to an actual session and try to play music with other musicians no matter how badly you mess up or make mistakes"
I seriously wouldn't advise this. If you're messing up and making mistakes, stop playing! You're supposed to be contributing, not putting people off! If things go wobbly, at least get back into the groove.and key. You'll be forgiven and encouraged. But don't plough on regardless of the effect it's having.
It is. Perhaps more so than playing along to a metronome, as it enables you to pick up the nuances of rhythm as well as 'tightening up' your playing and getting up to speed. But it doesn't allow the communicative element, that is such an essential part of session playing. It's like trying to have a conversation with someone on the radio.
"it is better to go to an actual session and try to play music with other musicians no matter how badly you mess up or make mistakes"
I'm not sure I subscribe to greenman's 'zero tolerance' approach. But there is certainly a limit to what you can get away with. By my reckoning, there is nothing wrong with using more accomplished musicians as a support for your playing - I consider that a normal part of playing in sessions. But when a session is way faster than the speed you are comfortable with, or you're playing more wrong notes than right ones, it's time to sit back and listen.
...although, on reading greenman's response more thoroughly, I realise that he's not really advocating 'zero tolerance' at all - he's saying more or less the same thing as me.
If you are at a session and you make so many mistakes that you almost wreck the session (as in making things go wobbly and off the groove, as greenman said), that is when you should stop participating and listen some more. You might also try taking lessons with a more experienced musician and I seem to remember that at some Irish Music Weeks, they offer classes on Session Playing. That might be useful to an inexperienced player if they are willing to learn. Wherever you are messing up or making mistakes is the place where there is room for improvement.
As for people who are messing up and making mistakes and they either don't realize it or don't care and won't listen to friendly suggestions and/or advice to improve their playing.....that has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere on this web site.
playing with others
playing with others
After many years of bashing at a fiddle I have found that the more I play with other people, the more I improve. (Compared to playing alone).
This is a maybe 'hidden' aspect of a good session. It might appear that everyone knows every tune in the universe, but in reality there is plenty of learning and experimentation going on.
I am lucky enough to attend a session where patience is shown to those who wish to try a new tune. I dont always get it right first time out, but I find that the tunes I remember are those that I have tried to bring to the session.
It is another important part of the tradition - the learning while sharing!
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by richrua
Re: playing with others
It's all a confidence thing, should be more of it.
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: playing with others
. . . you've just visualised the very 'Welcome . . . ' mission statement Jeremy's flagged up for anyone venturing onto this site
the secret of the 'good session' is out to play _ the 'mixture', the 'passing on' and 'exchange' of both old and new, equals to 'sharing' (as you said) this living tradition with everyone
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by lisaniska
Re: playing with others
I have certainly learnt most of my music through going to sessions. Certainly my guitar style owes a lot to watching and learning from guitarists and other musicians in some of the very excellent sessions I had the privilege to join early on. Unfortunately these were not always the sessions where beginners should turn up and join in and despite most of them being very patient and nice about it I have no doubt looking back now that I was a pain in the butt and a curse on them whenever I turned up. If any of you look at this site (and I am fairly sure you don't) I am really sorry for all of that!
I would now recommend folk treading more carefully than I did but if you can find the right session for you where you get a warm welcome and are given the opportunity to learn then it is a great thing.
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: playing with others
More than anything, playing with others teaches you how to listen to others. Being a good listener is part of being a good session player -
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: playing with others
This is exactly what I was getting at in the thread further below.
It's pointless playing on your own unless you are practising tunes and bits you already know. And playing along with recordings is no good. It's an aural tradition, you learn by listening and INTERACTING with others. You can't interact with ABC, dots or records.
I was gonna say "oral" and try and tie it in with my thread below but thought better of it.
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: playing with others
Why isn't playing along to recordings useful?
I work from home listening to Clare FM as often as I can, with whistle and box at the ready. As soon as a good tune comes along, I am playing along.
Isn't that as good as a session?
If you listen to a couple of hours of music you haven't heard before, don't you get steeped in the tradition?
It will certainly benefit you, once you are actually at the session.
Too many people come along to sessions who can't accompany an unknown tune on a recording.
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by geoffwright
Re: playing with others
I learned through playing along with tapes I made of our local session. Sort of like playing along with records, but a step nearer the real thing. Then when I started sessioning I found I got lots of helpful advice from other sessioneers. I play the bodhrán and the regular sessioneers told and showed me what they wanted from a decent session player. Invaluable. Then I started listening to recordings of other bodhrán players (some recommended by folk at the session)
So yes, I've found the same as you. The more I play with others the more I improve. Also played in ceilidh bands and in a semi-pro world-music band for some years. I'm just looking for a Prog Death Metal Band who need a bodhrán player now! Playing in different groups and contexts for different sorts of music just helps the learning and the enjoyment. And adds something to my session playing, even if it's realising I need to keep it simple and follow the tune. Or if some spontaneous arrangement begins to emerge, to be able to flow with it.
\())
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by greenman
Re: playing with others
geoffwright - I don't think anyone is implying that playing along with recorded tunes isn't useful. However, I think it was SWFL who once pointed out that some folks can become mentally reliant upon a recorded version, and when they hear variations in a live session - it throws them off. Nothing, (in my worthless opinion), advances a person's session playing ability like playing with other live, and unpredictable, musicians. You simply have to listen, blend and adjust.
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: playing with others
In All Traditional Music's - '' playing with others'',
*Is the only way to learn it Right!
jim,,
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by FIDDLE4
Re: playing with others
I am so pleased everyone agrees!
Perhaps those of us who go to sessions should make that little bit of effort to remember that Rome wasn't built in a day!
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by richrua
Re: playing with others
geoffwright said re. playing along with the wireless "isn't that just as good as a seesion?"
Well, NO IT ISN'T!
Playing along with recordings (or even broadcasts oflive "performances") is one way traffic. You don't ever just "play along" because you influence, no matter how slightly, the other people diddleying and therefore it is a two way communication.
One can pick up broad ideas from listening passively but it is not as good as a session!
Get down that pub!
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: playing with others
The live part is probably the best. In between sets you can talk, the more experienced guys ask you what the h**l you playing somewhere and run through how they do it.
Playing along with cds etc can help get you to speed, but you go so fast, you don't listen or have someone listening to you. Only goal is to keep up.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by zippydw
Re: playing with others
As several others have advised, it is better to go to an actual session and try to play music with other musicians no matter how badly you mess up or make mistakes. However, first I would recommend listening and observing carefully at the local session before you try to participate. This method(?) has worked very well for me no matter what type or genre of music I have been playing.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: playing with others
Oh no Jusa, remembering things I've said? Nothing but trouble.
I can't tell you how many times I've learned a tune from a recording which promptly went out the window as soon as I played it along with other folks. Right out the window. It's a rough outline. The 'actual' version of the tune is the ones your friends are playing at the session.
Even worse, the session in the next area over also has their own 'actual' version of the tune.
Then, horrors! You come across another recording of the tune, and it's different again! It's neither the one you learned from the first recording, nor the one your friends play, and it's not the one the folks in that session in the next County play! AAA!!!
So yes, the only way possible to develop the skill of adjusting your playing while listening to what others are playing is...
To play with others! Nicely, hopefully, or we'll put you in time out.
…and really, that’s the fun. Then your skill at variation and ornaments will increase, because you’re able to play along with any version of tune X you come across, and then you’ll be able to do that with just about any tune, and with anyone, anywhere, with any luck.
This is the improvisation, not improvising tunes, but literally inventing the tune every time you play it because you are being such a good listening musician, and you are adjusting your playing on the fly to what you hear the other musicians playing. Holy cow, you are playing music ‘together’, not simply ‘at the same time’. Ha ha.
You are being a good musician who listens closely to all the other musicians you are playing with, aren’t you?
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: playing with others
Yes, SWFL Fiddler, we remember everything you have said and we will send it all to you in the middle of the night so it can haunt you like a ghost while it moans in your ears.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: playing with others
Is that what that is, fauxcelt? I could have sworn it was a banshee. Oh well.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: playing with others
"As several others have advised, it is better to go to an actual session and try to play music with other musicians no matter how badly you mess up or make mistakes"
I seriously wouldn't advise this. If you're messing up and making mistakes, stop playing! You're supposed to be contributing, not putting people off! If things go wobbly, at least get back into the groove.and key. You'll be forgiven and encouraged. But don't plough on regardless of the effect it's having.
\())
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by greenman
Re: playing with others
"Why isn't playing along to recordings useful?"
It is. Perhaps more so than playing along to a metronome, as it enables you to pick up the nuances of rhythm as well as 'tightening up' your playing and getting up to speed. But it doesn't allow the communicative element, that is such an essential part of session playing. It's like trying to have a conversation with someone on the radio.
"it is better to go to an actual session and try to play music with other musicians no matter how badly you mess up or make mistakes"
I'm not sure I subscribe to greenman's 'zero tolerance' approach. But there is certainly a limit to what you can get away with. By my reckoning, there is nothing wrong with using more accomplished musicians as a support for your playing - I consider that a normal part of playing in sessions. But when a session is way faster than the speed you are comfortable with, or you're playing more wrong notes than right ones, it's time to sit back and listen.
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: playing with others
...although, on reading greenman's response more thoroughly, I realise that he's not really advocating 'zero tolerance' at all - he's saying more or less the same thing as me.
# Posted on September 24th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: playing with others
If you are at a session and you make so many mistakes that you almost wreck the session (as in making things go wobbly and off the groove, as greenman said), that is when you should stop participating and listen some more. You might also try taking lessons with a more experienced musician and I seem to remember that at some Irish Music Weeks, they offer classes on Session Playing. That might be useful to an inexperienced player if they are willing to learn. Wherever you are messing up or making mistakes is the place where there is room for improvement.
As for people who are messing up and making mistakes and they either don't realize it or don't care and won't listen to friendly suggestions and/or advice to improve their playing.....that has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere on this web site.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by fauxcelt