Well, it would make it easy to play a D tune in C. I did see Randal Bays use a second fiddle tuned down, for some tunes, in a house concert once. He said something about getting a different tone ouf of the fiddle. Daithi Sproule was playing with him, and didn't seem to mind.
And that is all I know about the subject--so unless somebody has something else to offer, I guess you'll have to decide for yourself.
No Forrest, to play a D tune using ' familiar D fingering' in C, you tune Down a tone, not up.
To play a D tune in Eb you tune up a semi tone. To play a D tune in B you tune down 3 half steps.
To play in Eb its easiest to tune up a semitone.
To play in C I personally prefer to simply change fingering. This gives a lovely tone.
To tune up a tone would mean D tunes being played in E, A tunes in B, G tunes in A etc. Hope that helps.
Reminds me of a story. A helicopter pilot was lost in the fog near Seattle. He spotted an office building in a small clear spot, so he hovered nearby and held up a handwritten sign reading, "Where am I?" An office worker quickly held up his own sign that said, "You are in a helicopter."
So the pilot deduced he must be at Microsoft headquarters--because the answer was prompt, concise, technically correct... and no help at all.
(My, but I'm in an allegorical mood lately... sleep deprivation, I think.)
You were right first time Ionnas. To play a D tune in B you tune down 3 steps as there is only one semitone between B and C. If you tune down 4 steps you will be in B flat.
Generally, it's not a good idea to tune a fiddle up a whole tone - which I think would be the same as tuning up from A440 to A494 - because it would put a very undesirable strain on the fiddle, not to mention the strings, unless some serious work is done on it first by a luthier (but see the last para of this post).
Tuning up half a tone is done occasionally (Frankie Gavin, for example), and the idea seems to give a brighter tone or to match the tuning of a free reed instrument that's tuned sharp on concert pitch. If it's something you want to do regularly alongside your normal tuning then it would be a good idea to get a luthier to set up a second fiddle specifically at that higher pitch - with strings that can cope, and a low action because pressing down those higher tension strings will be just that bit tougher to do.
There's no harm whatsoever in going the other way and tuning down - half a tone will take you down to the region of the Baroque pitch, for example. The fiddle will be more resonant, probably with a darker tone, and may feel easier to play because of the lower tension, but be careful not to overplay the lower strings because doing so will send the note sharp.
Mahler, in one of his symphonies, has a section where the leader is requied to play a violin that's a whole tone sharp - apparently Mahler's intention was to imitate the sound of a folk fiddle (!). When we performed that symphony some years ago the leader borrowed a cheap'n'nasty fiddle from a school, fitted it with the cheapest unwound steel strings he could find, tuned it up to A494 and swapped between it and his £30K violin during the performance when required. The cheap fiddle didn't break and the bright harsh sound may have been exactly what Mahler wanted.
I'm confused because if you're good enough to play along with Martin Hayes it seems to me, anyway,that it shouldn't be hard for you to to tune a fiddle down a step.
I agree Shanty, it's not hard to tune down a step, regardless of whether you can play with Martin Hayes (although, that's not usually all that hard, either--Martin tends to favor fairly simple settings of tunes).
And richrua may be using software to slow down the tracks, so he can play along.
Fiddle is one of the easier instruments to tune. And dropping in pitch, as lazyhound has suggested, usually results in a darker, richer tone because the instrument's design reflects the lower pitches played at back in the day. A=440 is *at least* a half step higher than most fiddles would've been tuned back in the 1700s.
Sure. Us fiddlers do that a fair amount. Or we just play in F and Bb. Either way is common place.
Martin Hayes seems to have a thing for those lower tones. Down tuning for nine tracks on a cd, for instance, and playing viola with Kevin Crawford's Bb flute on "In Good Company."
Standard tuning: G D A E
1 step up: A E B F#
1 step down: F C G D
Assuming you want to do what Martin Hayes does on Welcome Here Again, it's the 3rd option you want. Tune your E string down until it is exactly an octave above your D string. Tune your A string down to an octave above your G string.
Then tune your G and D strings to the other strings, as you would normally.
"To play in C I personally prefer to simply change fingering. This gives a lovely tone."
I agree - the same can be said for playing in F or Bb. But fiddles tuned up or down can also sound good - and very different in character from standard tuning.
When I say C, I really mean playing standard tunes a tone low, with a C whistle, or C pipes.etc . So yes lots of tunes in F, Gmix G min C, Cmix.. etc. I have never tuned down a tone, I have a spare fiddle, Im going to try it right now!
In American old-time music they often tune just the two lowest strings up a full tone to play tunes in the key of A. I wish I could tune my whistle up a full tone.
A bit off topic, but timely and just too funny. The following post appeared today in the Musicians section of the local Craigslist site:
My band is considering tuning down a half step to accomodate vocals (we are not getting any younger). We are also considering adding a keyboard player, but we don't know how that will affect their ability to play. I realize the music can be transposed, but is it a big hassle? Can modern keyboards simply be tuned down a half step also?
(I'm trying to imagine what this band must be like, but imagination fails me.)
"When I say C, I really mean playing standard tunes a tone low, with a C whistle, or C pipes.etc . So yes lots of tunes in F, Gmix G min C, Cmix.. etc. I have never tuned down a tone, I have a spare fiddle, Im going to try it right now!"
Last time I was at the Willie Clancy Week, there was a session one night in Malone's pub in Bb - with, among others, Mick O'Brien and Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh. I stood and listened as long as I could, but finally gave in and had to join - which involved tuning my mandolin down a long long way. I don't think it would have sounded too hot on its own, at such low tension - a plucked string is a bit different from a bowed one. But it seemed to blend in well with the rest of instruments, and was surprisingly easy play.
One poor whistle player, realising the session was in flat pitch but unable to resist the magnetism, rushed off to the music shop to buy a C whistle, only realising on his return that they were in Bb, not C. He had had a Bb whistle in his bag all along.
The fiddle is nice down low, means I can play all my 'C' tunes in Bb! nice rich sound and like someone said, easier to play, though the E is a bit scratchy... but I have a trick I learnt from my Cello teacher to solve that I think. ~Im going to try it right now!
<<<He had had a Bb whistle in his bag all along. >>>
poor fecker! bet he was gutted to realise he'd missed all those tunes all for nuttin!
I had to do that once to a 16/16 hammered dulcimer because the choir director wanted both Eb and Gb tunes in the services. I thought I was going to fold that thing in half. When I went to the organist later tocomplain he grinned and started playing while turning a knob that moved the tone down one note. He said he'd work the transition in choir practice and by the next Sunday I was back in my favorite tune, the choir singing in my favorite keys and nobody in the choir the wiser.
tuning up a full step
tuning up a full step
Martin hayes' and denis Cahill's new album says the first few tracks has the fiddle tuned up a full step.
I have a vague notion about it but not sure... any comments on this?
(I am not sure if I would want to retune the fiddle as it can be a tricky instrument to tune from being way out.)
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by richrua
Re: tuning up a full step
It's hard to know what you are looking for, since you don't say what your "vague notion" is.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by GaryAMartin
Re: tuning up a full step
Actually, the liner notes for "Welcome Here Again" say:
"The fiddle is tuned down a full step on tracks 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11, 18"
Down, not up.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by John Galt
Re: tuning up a full step
just want to know exactly how to. but i am not sure if it is worth doing.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by richrua
Re: tuning up a full step
Try turning the peggy-type things at the end of the handley bit. Rightey tightey, leftey loosey.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by EnDaC
Re: tuning up a full step
Well, it would make it easy to play a D tune in C. I did see Randal Bays use a second fiddle tuned down, for some tunes, in a house concert once. He said something about getting a different tone ouf of the fiddle. Daithi Sproule was playing with him, and didn't seem to mind.
And that is all I know about the subject--so unless somebody has something else to offer, I guess you'll have to decide for yourself.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by John Galt
Re: tuning up a full step
No Forrest, to play a D tune using ' familiar D fingering' in C, you tune Down a tone, not up.
To play a D tune in Eb you tune up a semi tone. To play a D tune in B you tune down 3 half steps.
To play in Eb its easiest to tune up a semitone.
To play in C I personally prefer to simply change fingering. This gives a lovely tone.
To tune up a tone would mean D tunes being played in E, A tunes in B, G tunes in A etc. Hope that helps.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: tuning up a full step
Yeah, but we've already established that we're really talking about down, not up, so Forrest is quite correct.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by DaveL35
Re: tuning up a full step
Correction; To play a D tune in B you tune down 4 half steps.
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: tuning up a full step
oops yes Dave35, that was a cross post. My earlier page was still open Apologies..
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: tuning up a full step
Or maybe I just didn't see/read that post? whatever, my mistake
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: tuning up a full step
Reminds me of a story. A helicopter pilot was lost in the fog near Seattle. He spotted an office building in a small clear spot, so he hovered nearby and held up a handwritten sign reading, "Where am I?" An office worker quickly held up his own sign that said, "You are in a helicopter."
So the pilot deduced he must be at Microsoft headquarters--because the answer was prompt, concise, technically correct... and no help at all.
(My, but I'm in an allegorical mood lately... sleep deprivation, I think.)
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by John Galt
Re: tuning up a full step
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: tuning up a full step
I think a step is equivalent to a whole tone.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: tuning up a full step
You were right first time Ionnas. To play a D tune in B you tune down 3 steps as there is only one semitone between B and C. If you tune down 4 steps you will be in B flat.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Bredna
Re: tuning up a full step
Half-steps
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Bredna
Re: tuning up a full step
Generally, it's not a good idea to tune a fiddle up a whole tone - which I think would be the same as tuning up from A440 to A494 - because it would put a very undesirable strain on the fiddle, not to mention the strings, unless some serious work is done on it first by a luthier (but see the last para of this post).
Tuning up half a tone is done occasionally (Frankie Gavin, for example), and the idea seems to give a brighter tone or to match the tuning of a free reed instrument that's tuned sharp on concert pitch. If it's something you want to do regularly alongside your normal tuning then it would be a good idea to get a luthier to set up a second fiddle specifically at that higher pitch - with strings that can cope, and a low action because pressing down those higher tension strings will be just that bit tougher to do.
There's no harm whatsoever in going the other way and tuning down - half a tone will take you down to the region of the Baroque pitch, for example. The fiddle will be more resonant, probably with a darker tone, and may feel easier to play because of the lower tension, but be careful not to overplay the lower strings because doing so will send the note sharp.
Mahler, in one of his symphonies, has a section where the leader is requied to play a violin that's a whole tone sharp - apparently Mahler's intention was to imitate the sound of a folk fiddle (!). When we performed that symphony some years ago the leader borrowed a cheap'n'nasty fiddle from a school, fitted it with the cheapest unwound steel strings he could find, tuned it up to A494 and swapped between it and his £30K violin during the performance when required. The cheap fiddle didn't break and the bright harsh sound may have been exactly what Mahler wanted.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: tuning up a full step
Doesn't it just mean that the strings are tuned FCGD as opposed to GDAE.
richrua--- this isn't hard to do and you won't knock your fiddle 'way out' if you're only lowering the strings by one step.
Can I ask why you would want to do this?
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by shanty
Re: tuning up a full step
It's in the OP: to play along with Martin Hayes (or at least learn the tunes) on many of the track of Hayes' latest cd.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: tuning up a full step
I don't see that in the original post. He says Hayes does it but he doesn't say why he wants to do it. I didn't want to assume.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by shanty
Re: tuning up a full step
I'm confused because if you're good enough to play along with Martin Hayes it seems to me, anyway,that it shouldn't be hard for you to to tune a fiddle down a step.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by shanty
Re: tuning up a full step
I agree Shanty, it's not hard to tune down a step, regardless of whether you can play with Martin Hayes (although, that's not usually all that hard, either--Martin tends to favor fairly simple settings of tunes).
And richrua may be using software to slow down the tracks, so he can play along.
Fiddle is one of the easier instruments to tune. And dropping in pitch, as lazyhound has suggested, usually results in a darker, richer tone because the instrument's design reflects the lower pitches played at back in the day. A=440 is *at least* a half step higher than most fiddles would've been tuned back in the 1700s.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: tuning up a full step
A fiddle might tune down to facilitate playing with, say, a Bb/F concertina or C pipes.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by boxist
Re: tuning up a full step
Sure. Us fiddlers do that a fair amount. Or we just play in F and Bb. Either way is common place.
Martin Hayes seems to have a thing for those lower tones. Down tuning for nine tracks on a cd, for instance, and playing viola with Kevin Crawford's Bb flute on "In Good Company."
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: tuning up a full step
tuning down for me generaly means reaching for a different whistle....
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by shanty
Re: tuning up a full step
"Try turning the peggy-type things at the end of the handley bit. Rightey tightey, leftey loosey."
In the interests of strict accuracy, this is only correct half of the time...
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: tuning up a full step
...and here I thought Lefty Lucy was a southpaw down in the red light district....
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: tuning up a full step
I don't want to know about Righty Tighty. I really don't want to know.
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: tuning up a full step
Um, wasn't he vp for the last administration?
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: tuning up a full step
Lalala I can't hear you....
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: tuning up a full step
LOL
# Posted on September 17th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: tuning up a full step
"just want to know exactly how to"
Standard tuning: G D A E
1 step up: A E B F#
1 step down: F C G D
Assuming you want to do what Martin Hayes does on Welcome Here Again, it's the 3rd option you want. Tune your E string down until it is exactly an octave above your D string. Tune your A string down to an octave above your G string.
Then tune your G and D strings to the other strings, as you would normally.
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: tuning up a full step
"To play in C I personally prefer to simply change fingering. This gives a lovely tone."
I agree - the same can be said for playing in F or Bb. But fiddles tuned up or down can also sound good - and very different in character from standard tuning.
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: tuning up a full step
When I say C, I really mean playing standard tunes a tone low, with a C whistle, or C pipes.etc . So yes lots of tunes in F, Gmix G min C, Cmix.. etc. I have never tuned down a tone, I have a spare fiddle, Im going to try it right now!
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: tuning up a full step
In American old-time music they often tune just the two lowest strings up a full tone to play tunes in the key of A. I wish I could tune my whistle up a full tone.
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by sbhikes
Re: tuning up a full step
A bit off topic, but timely and just too funny. The following post appeared today in the Musicians section of the local Craigslist site:
My band is considering tuning down a half step to accomodate vocals (we are not getting any younger). We are also considering adding a keyboard player, but we don't know how that will affect their ability to play. I realize the music can be transposed, but is it a big hassle? Can modern keyboards simply be tuned down a half step also?
(I'm trying to imagine what this band must be like, but imagination fails me.)
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by John Galt
!
"When I say C, I really mean playing standard tunes a tone low, with a C whistle, or C pipes.etc . So yes lots of tunes in F, Gmix G min C, Cmix.. etc. I have never tuned down a tone, I have a spare fiddle, Im going to try it right now!"
Last time I was at the Willie Clancy Week, there was a session one night in Malone's pub in Bb - with, among others, Mick O'Brien and Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh. I stood and listened as long as I could, but finally gave in and had to join - which involved tuning my mandolin down a long long way. I don't think it would have sounded too hot on its own, at such low tension - a plucked string is a bit different from a bowed one. But it seemed to blend in well with the rest of instruments, and was surprisingly easy play.
One poor whistle player, realising the session was in flat pitch but unable to resist the magnetism, rushed off to the music shop to buy a C whistle, only realising on his return that they were in Bb, not C. He had had a Bb whistle in his bag all along.
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: tuning up a full step
The fiddle is nice down low, means I can play all my 'C' tunes in Bb! nice rich sound and like someone said, easier to play, though the E is a bit scratchy... but I have a trick I learnt from my Cello teacher to solve that I think. ~Im going to try it right now!
<<<He had had a Bb whistle in his bag all along.
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: tuning up a full step
I had to do that once to a 16/16 hammered dulcimer because the choir director wanted both Eb and Gb tunes in the services. I thought I was going to fold that thing in half. When I went to the organist later tocomplain he grinned and started playing while turning a knob that moved the tone down one note. He said he'd work the transition in choir practice and by the next Sunday I was back in my favorite tune, the choir singing in my favorite keys and nobody in the choir the wiser.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by jrathbun