This is a new organization in UK formed to combat the move by the British National Party (far right) to annexe traditional and folk music, song and dance and performance. e.g. St George's Day celebrations, mumming plays where eastern princes get killed.
The BNP advice to activists and organizers is to get into this sort of activity to stress 'Britishness'
Can or should Folk be non political? The 1950s revival was much influenced by the Left and many songs in sessions are songs of resistance and nationalism.
Are we safer just playing tunes and not giving them names or places of origin!
Have you got a link to this new organisation ? I know a few prospective members up here in Newcastle
For those who play Irish music in the UK, the BNP consider this Foreign music ( lets not do the where does the music come from thread again ) such simplistic mumberlings from the BNP should come as no surprize to anyone .
Its not that long ago in the UK that people could advertise no blacks or Irish need apply without illegality and sadly many did .
Lets not go back there.
I remember "Folk Against Fascism" being used as a slogan immediately after the "Rock Against Racism" movement back in 1976. Can't find anything on the net now though ... just this new stuff taking on the name. Ah well, the thought's still the same.
Wimps? too mild a word I fear.
One of the things I like about the session scene is how many people who are none Irish who play it. The futility and short sightedness of those who propergate the division of anything based on such an outdated consept of the purity of an indeviduals blood is self evident.
I find tune names with historical significance or inuendo interesting and part of the charm. If the tune name has its origin in something I disagree with, though, I won't get in a pub fight over it.
Our tunes are probably considered foriegn music or "world Music" here in the US.
Is the BNP really fascist, or do we try to stick them with that label because we disagree with them. I know nothing about them. What tune names would they find either offensive or supportive to thier political agenda?
Are they really fascist..........er...Yes!
They promote books that deny the Nazi war crimes, call for repatriation of none whites, make Mosques illegal, homosexuality should be made a crime, invite the leader of the kkk to meetings ...... Anything else?
Oh yes I forgot spread deliberate lies about ethnic minorities to start riots.
Seems like a Fascist organisation to me. Unless anyone has another definition.
They are white supremacists despite efforts to seem reasonable. They recently won two MEP seats in the European elections in England, hence a lot of the recent furore.
"By definition, folk not only can be but must be non-political. It is the music of the people who are playing it, and can't be usurped."
This is quite clearly nonsense. The folk tradition has always been highly political whether that be songs and tunes about war and death or emigration. In Ireland a lot of the folk traditions have revolved around the political struggles of freedom and independence. In Scotland the focus, historically has been on Socialism, Jacobitism and Independence. In England Socialism appears too as well as lots of Napoleonic songs and songs of class division. In America the tradition focusses on the Revolutionary War and the Civil War and then Equal Rights and the Black struggle. Immigration naturally features strongly.
My point is that you can not divorce folk and traditional music from politics (although this website tries). It is precisely because folk music is the music of the people that makes it so highly political. The folk tradition is the tradition of people's experiences and struggles. If it is not political then it is nothing.
As far as the Folk Against Fascism group is concerned it has a Facebook page, of which I am a member. I believe the organisation itself was started by Kit Bailey, the daughter of Folk legend Roy Bailey and wife of Martin Simpson.
One of the things I like about the session scene is how many people who are none Irish who play it. The futility and short sightedness of those who propergate the division of anything based on such an outdated consept of the purity of an indeviduals blood is self evident.
Dave, I didn't really understand what you said, but by God I defend your right to say it.!
For Transatlantic friends - yes, the BNP is a fascist organisation in the recognisable 1930s sense of the word. It is a follow-on from the National Front, active in the 60s and 70s (in assaulting coloured people, that is), which foundered, no doubt in ignominious and squalid circumstances, thereafter. The NF in turn would have got off on Oswald Mosley, the pre-war leader of The British Union Of Fascists who had another go at this stuff in the 50s, I think.
All have been preoccupied with attacking immigrants. In the 1930s, it was the Jews; since 1950, it has been the coloured immigrants and their descendants.
From Billy Bragg's forum. I was slightly inaccurate above. Joannie Crump deserves the credit for starting the group although Kit Bailey is involved as well.
I didn't realize the BNP was getting that strong. I'm not worried about folk being "political" - of course it is. Why not adapt a mummer's play and make St. George fight the racists?
The BNP are doing quite well in certain areas of England and over the years have won a number of local Councillors. They have no MPs but this was the first time for them to win MEPs. They have achieved this through PR where even a relatively small percentage of votes can gain a seat. They still have very weak support in Scotland though where they have no elected representatives at all and are nowhere near to getting any.
Could this be because in scotland there are other ways too be nationalistic with out beng fascist Same as in Ireland maybe ?
In England it sometimes seems to be that to be very nationalistic is seen to be fascist politically . What is nationalism in English terms .?
I dont know to be honest .I feel nationalistic and proud to be English yet I play diddly music and hate Fascists.And am thinking of going to live in France
The BNP is not a big phenomenon - it's a marginal one. So far, that is. But we are living through very strange times in the UK. The two-and-a-half big parties (Labour, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats) have all forfeited credibility to an unprecedented extent, in my lifetime at any rate. They are also seen as having become to a large extent the same. Again, this is new. Up till the Nineties, Labour and the Conservatives were based on substantial and different political philosophies. The Liberal Democrats specialised in being bizarre. You took your choice.
In the short term, this actually helps them; the less interest people take in voting and party politics, the more the "political class" will actually entrench themselves and their friends and their interests, and the harder it will be to hold them to account. And those outside the circle will get angry; and they will go looking for alternative political organisations, and alternative political organisations will come looking for them. The BNP is one of these.
Nationalism is a horrid nasty thing. What makes you think that it's more acceptable in Scotland and Ireland than in England? Anyone who takes pride in any form of nationalism needs to go to the very splendid Ann Frank Museum in Amsterdam. They will be instantly cured.
b/dave - I think the difference is that, perceived rightly or wrongly, Scotland, Ireland and Wales were dragged into the British Empire against their will by the English. Yes, yes, I know this is a blatant oversimplification. For example, Wales was conquered by the English a long time even before Calais was lost back to the French. Scotland reluctantly joined the Union shortly after its disaster in attempting to colonise the Darien region of Panama, a folly which plunged its economy into a depression which makes the present Credit Crunch look like a tea party. And Ireland...where to begin? the Synod of Whitby? The Anglo Normans? Cromwell? 1798?
Modern Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism consequently appear to be kind of "politically correct"...if not PC, then at least understandable as a stand against the "imperial tyrant" England. Conversely, English nationalism looks like it has been hijacked by the far right, the BNP etc. Also England has over the longer term experienced much higher levels of immigration because it is mostly wealthier thus a more attractive destination to emigrees. So it's easier for the fascists to move in and spread their vile hateful message. And it makes the task of genuine and honest English people proud and interested in preserving and sustaining their vibrant, varied and rich folk traditions, that much harder to ensure these traditions remain pure traditions untainted by right wing nationalist ideas. I believe also that he fascists have adopted the characters and ideas from JRR Tolkien books, since he yearned for a mythical England. He wasn't exactly a liberal leftie but I'm sure he'd be turning in his grave if he knew how his idyll has been raped.
Anyway. I'm all for this Folk against Fascism.
To an extent recent votes for the BNP probably came as a backlash to the expenses scandal and out of frustration at the economy. Now I think about it I believe the BNP vote actually went down a little bit but because so may folk stayed away from the polling stations their vote increased in percentage terms.
Bazouki Dave - I think it is true to say that Nationalism in England is a relatively new and awkward concept that folk struggle with. In Scotland, Wales and Ireland there has always been a strong sense of National social and cultural identity. In England much of this has been tied in to the Union Flag and Britishness. For many it has been hard to separate England and Britain and identify what is special about an English identity. This is a real shame and is something that people like Billy Bragg have been fighting to foster, a sense of Englishness.
That's more or less what I just said, ncfa
Llig, I don't hate all nationalism, not if it can lead to emancipation. But I have to admit the worst nationalism I've seen is by certain Scots against English people resident in Scotland. Swearing and verbally abusing and spitting at them on the Underground in Glasgow. That made me ashamed that we couldn't welcome people into our country. As a Scot now resident in England, I have never suffered anything like that from English people - only from drunken Irishmen!
Nationalism is a horrid nasty thing. What makes you think that it's more acceptable in Scotland and Ireland than in England? Anyone who takes pride in any form of nationalism needs to go to the very splendid Ann Frank Museum in Amsterdam. They will be instantly cured.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Wonderful post. Nationalists tend to think their nation is better than anyone else, whether it be Germany, Ireland, Scotland, what ever.
I do not mind a bit of patriotism, shout for the Irish at sports events, but Nationalism is dangerous.
No, I can't say I'm happy with any of the above definitions/distinctions. A nationalist or even a Nazi could "give" to his cause, his Fatherland, his Patrio...so, I'm sorry, I think people are just playing with semantics here.
My Webster's dictionary has almost the same primary definition ("loyalty and devotion to one's country/a nation") but adds the following for nationalism: "exalting one nation above all others and placing a primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations."
So, many self-styled patriots are actually nationalists. And they consider real patriots (who are dedicated to lofty principles, as nicholas pointed out) to be traitors. An interesting distinction that is often overlooked, lately.
Should we defend their right to speak their mind? Absoutely.
The more they speak, the more opportunities they have to confirm their stupidity, and the more evidence we have of their vile and hateful views.
"The more they speak, the more opportunities they have to confirm their stupidity"
I have always believed insistance on politically correct speech is dangerous and counterproductive. In the day, we all knew who the racists, sexists, and other creeps were because they never kept their mouth shut. Now we don't know who they are. Those whose tender feelings were hurt by words are still getting shafted but now they don't know by whom.
Free Speech. Source of a multitude of blessings. Yet on the wane.
In the news today
it seems the BBC are considering having the BNP on question time (flagship political discussion program) I wonder if they will come in uniform.?
If people would leave at expressing their opinions verbally I'd agree with 'free speech for everyone'. But the Nazis don't leave it at that. They threaten, injure and kill.
As you may know we have serious problems with right-wing violence in East Germany (in parts of the west, too.) Then again you might not know because it's being swept under the carpet officialy.
A young member of my own family, singer in a leftist rock band, was beaten up by a Nazi after a gig. He suffered serious head injuries. And this was not an isolated case.
So be aware. Nazis use the freedom they enjoy in a democracy to fight it. Not just with words.
Well said kuec it's difficult to have free speech for those who do not believe in it but if we limit it do we become like those we seek to challenge.
I wonder what ever happened to the Blue Shirts?
Blue shirts were worn by members of the youth organization in the GDR. You mean black or brown ones?
I have strong feelings about this matter because it is not just theoretical to me. There was a violent attack by organized Nazis on the trade union meeting in Dortmund on May 1st, just down the road from here. Yesterday there was a Nazi march in the same city because a court had ruled it was to be allowed. If you leave the streets to these people it will have consequences for those they don't like.
I'm not afraid of becoming intolerant when I stand up against racism. Looking back at history I wouldn't want to be told (again) that we didn't stand in for human rights for non-whites or homosexuals. I see those rights seriously threatened.
Try rephrasing that to: "... It is the music of the proletariat ..."
Now how do you feel?
Puzzled. In my mind 'folk' means 'people', not 'the lowest classes only capable of bearing children'.
gam, I think the definition of Proletariat has moved on a little since the original Latin. Folk music can be considered the music of all or at least most of the people but when you live in a Capitalist industrialised Nation then most of the people in that Nation would probably be of the working class - the ones who produce the capital for those at the top.
Folk music is about the Human experience. It is therefore about the difficulties faced by Man as much as the successes. Folk music is innately political. I am surprised you can not see that.
"Nationalism is a horrid nasty thing. What makes you think that it's more acceptable in Scotland and Ireland than in England? Anyone who takes pride in any form of nationalism needs to go to the very splendid Ann Frank Museum in Amsterdam. They will be instantly cured."
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
The big difference between the Scotish and Welsh Nationalists and the BNP is that Scottish and Welsh Notionalism is concerned only with government. No one in Scoltland or Wales is suggesting that they should close their borders, or evict 'foreigners'. The Scottish and Welsh Nationalist parties welcome menbers from other ethnic groups, and happliy accept that the 'nation' embraces ALL the people living in the country.
The argument as to what 'folk' is goes back to dear old J.G. Herder's term Volkslied, coined in 1773. Every generation has had it's own view since then.
The trouble started when 'folk' was being equalled with 'nation'. I'd like to quote A.L. Lloyd once more: 'The mother of folklore is poverty' even if this seems inappropriate today. Exchange 'poverty' for 'the struggle to survive' or even 'The Pursuit of Happiness'.
No Cause For Alarm has expressed it very nicely. The Human experience, yes.
Llig in kind of depends on the specifics of the nationalism in question. The triumphalist nationalism of powerful countries intent on imperial asperations is to my mind rather different from the wish of smaller, or less powerfull, nations to run their own affairs.
Contrast the old school British form of nationalism that celebrated the empire with the nationalisms of India, Ireland, and numerous former African colonies opposing that rule and struggling for independence.
I'm not going to ouch the Scottish issue here as it isn't entirely one nor t'other to my mind and more fraught with amibiguity
Skreech:
>The big difference between the Scotish and Welsh >Nationalists and the BNP is that Scottish and Welsh >Notionalism is concerned only with government. No one in >Scoltland or Wales is suggesting that they should close their >borders, or evict 'foreigners'. The Scottish and Welsh >Nationalist parties welcome menbers from other ethnic >groups, and happliy accept that the 'nation' embraces ALL >the people living in the country.
>Unlike the BNP
Yes. I'd agree with that. Whether or not you support the Scottish or Welsh Nationalists, they are clearly of a different stripe to the BNP and various European "nationalist" parties that are primarily concerned with obtaining an ethnically pure homeland.
That isn't to say that the phenomenon of anti-English rascism doesn't exist in Scotland (can't speak for Wales). But it doesn't form the basis of the SNP's political platform.
I don't recall Britain presenting itsfl as an underdog in realtion to its former colonies
The Russian minorities in those states are being subjected to the ethnic version on "nationalism".
I do agree that nationalism as an end in itself is not a particularly worthy cause, and frequently more than dubious. (For waht it matters I've never voted for a Nationalist party in any election, although I have voted for parties that have been pro-independence) but there is nothing inherently wrong with wishing to be independent of foreign control.
Ahem! I see from http://www.folkagainstfascism.com/ that the emblem of this group is a guitar - we don't be playing guitars, do we?
But to comment on the matter in hand ... sure groups of all hues have always taken music and bent it to suit their message. And not just facists or racists, everybody's at it and if it's good enough for organisations and groups that we 'approve of' to do this, then it has to be good enough for those we oppose too. That's the basis of freedom of expression etc., is it not? So let the BNP at it, for all I care - it doesn't mean that you need to agree with them.
Once again it looks different from this side of the channel. We lost what was left of our musical tradition almost completely because of claims the Nazis made.
If the BNP is big enough for some musicians thinking it necessary to get organized against them its probably not lack of tolerance that guides 'folk against fascism'.
There are nasty people everywhere who will seek to marginalize any minority to serve as a focus to further their nasty aims/unstated agenda, either socially or politically. Muslims seem to be bearing the brunt of BNP hate mongering at the moment, just as Asylum Seekers did in the days before 9/11. The war on terror as produced a handy ready made form of Orwellian style hate for the digestion of masses which is easy for the hate mongers to manipulate for their wider aims. The media has much to answer for in this regard.
I take people as I find them and accept anyone into my company provided their personal conduct is not offensive toward others enjoying the craic. It's that simple.
The best thing we can do IMO is to engage people and show by example that craic is not dependent on belonging to any ethno political group but rather non partisan inclusiveness with a glad heart being where it's at (we'r awe jock tamsans bairns, an awe that). Most people are looking for craic in life and as people like us are often the focus for such, on occasion; lead by example I say. Confrontation seldom benefits the cause one seeks to further as it's all to easily misconstrued or twisted around. The BNP have learned this, it's about time non fascists did also.
"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."
Pastor Niemöller
the BNP are the National Front, are Moseley's Blackshirts,
Folk Against Fascism simply opposes their attempts to twist the "music of the people" to racist ends
selston steve, my point is influence those around you to the positive, tell the guy next to you in the pub or the folks at the bus stop. Any anti pressure group gets lumped with the radical left by the fascist spin machine and the mainstream media. The positive propaganda these BNP cunewts make from that gets them sympathy from the right of center Joe who dislikes the radical left, they then turn against you thus countering your well intentioned action. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating silence, rather, influencing those you can where you find it lurking under the surface. Going out your way to find it is counter productive giving succor to their cause. It was easy to dislike skinhead's with swastika and NF tattoos but these guys project themselves as mainstream and in my opinion this can only be countered by mainstream opposition that the normal sun reading Joe can identify with.
Given the derision in which English folk musicians and, especially dancers, are held by the majority of the population, perhaps we should be *encouraging* the BNP to take up folk music.
Britain has of course been imperialist, but has not (on the UK mainland) had a strongly militaristic tradition embedded in its domestic politics. That has put a brake on home-grown fascism, which tends to make its appeal to this. As far as I'm aware the same applies in the USA, for all that patriotism is determinedly inculcated there.
But the "discourse" on fascism in the UK has been muddied by the tendency of a load of people since early postwar to (a) label as a fascist practically anyone who wore a suit, had short hair, lived a conventional life and/or voted Conservative, (b) assume that they themselves were entirely above the temptations and fears that induced people to promote / go along with fascism elsewhere, and (c) fantasise about it happening here, so that they could shine as heroes and resisters. Hence, lots of broken glass and hurt policemen.
(a) was antagonism to the people probably least likely to generate fascism anywhere. (b) was part of a general national superiority complex. (c) shows a gross divorce from reality, born of being protected from actual experience of fascism and of watching too many war films.
The BNP heirarchy includes several people who have been, or are being investigated and occasionally charged and convicted of various offences, e.g, incitement to racial hatred, violence. They masquerade as a political party and have attempted to rebrand themselves as suits not boots, but they are essentially an ill-assorted collection of racists who are trying to manipulate the instruments of a reasonably democratic and tolerant country to their own foul ends.
One thing I have done is to engage in a conversation with the General Teaching Council(GTC) (England), a quango which regulates teaching in the UK to interrogate them on their policy of not banning BNP members from teaching in English schools (the Metropolitan Police force in London already operates such a ban). Anyone can write/email the GTC
(http://www.gtce.org.uk/media_parliament/news_comment/party_members211108/), you don't have to be a teacher. Anyone who teaches in a maintained school in the UK always has to sign an equal opps policy statement, or they won't employ you. So how could a BNP member agree to such a policy?, etc. Would you want your kids taught by one of these guys?
Doing nothing about these people is not an option, in my view.
Max
If anyone's interested I can give you more info on this issue.
Given the derision in which English folk musicians and, especially dancers, are held by the majority of the population, perhaps we should be *encouraging* the BNP to take up folk music.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ethical
They need no encouragement. Not only have the BNP set themselves up as self-appointed 'defenders of the tradition', They are also selling folk music compilation CDs on their website. This was the main spur for the creation of Folk Against Fascism. Not only is the BNP profiting on the backs of the artists concerned, but also gives the impression that these musicians are supporters of the party, when nothing could be further from the truth. The Albion Band and various others have been trying desparately to prevent the BNP using their material, but it seems they are legally powerless.
Well, no, the BNP are a bad thing and their pirating the Albion Band is a bad thing and I'm sure the band have no sympathy with the BNP and would hate their music to be used by them.
It's just that their sledgehammer take on EngTrad seems (to me) to be mystically at one with a mosh-pit of bumbling British Nazis wallowing about in a muddy field in the middle of no-where surrounded by preposterous insignia and burger vans.
Worry when the "Old Right" -- and that would be the old wealth, old military, old power -- decides that, however preposterous national socialists may seem, these clowns enjoy a certain popularity, and could be put to other uses.
I may be wrong, but I get the impression the Fascists and the Nazis took the initiative and ran rings round the old guard, annexing them to their purposes, rather than the other way round.
Mussolini, back in the early days, defined fascism as corporatism. Was he thinking of our U.S. model, where government is subservient to the purposes big business? (i'm reluctant to quote Mussolini on anything; but fascism was his baby.)
Are the record labels selling on tracks of artists on their books to the BNP for, or as, compilations? Or are the BNP pirating these?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
It appears that bands are duped into agreeing to their work being included in compilations for distribution through gift shops. Once they have agreed they thenhave no control over how or where the disks are sold. And it's not just The Albion Band - Steve Knightley, Jon Spiers, Billy Bragg, Pink Floyd, Bluur and even Ulster band Brier have fallen foul.
Atahualpa, Mussolini was a master of persuasive rhetoric.
What he was thinking was exactly that (persuasion), pure & simple.
IMHO a bit of skepticism is always healthy when listening to a speech filled with symbolism or emotion or persuasion. Is it too good to be true?
What's fascism?,
Is that like saying there's only one way of playing Irish music?
Or NO BODHRANS!
Or "you're playing that too fast/too slow , too loud / too soft"
Out of tune? hahahahah
It's a bl@@dy disgrace to see the far right using folk music like this!
Come to think of it though, it's just as distasteful, having to put up with see all those far left singer/songwriters, who use folk music to ram their politics down our throats, at concerts & festivals!
At the final concert at Towersey, last weekend, both Martin Carthy and one of his nieces from the Watersons were wearing "Folk against Fascism" t-shirts.
You have to give it to the man, he's always been consistent. And a great concert too.
There was a tv broadcast in the US of A a while ago, that was repeated in the UK. Whoever it was, the John Birch Society or whoever, insisted that they had the right to free speech, and to help they enlisted the assistance of the National Council for Civil Liberties, who sent along a lawyer, a black lawyer, who sat on the platform with them and was plainly embarassed at being there. However, they showed themselves to be such dunderheads that it was an absolute own goal.
Let them speak, they will show themselves up.
To take the No Bodhrans example - just to illustrate how fascists think:
'Importing goat skins from Pakistan is giving support to our muslim enemies. We are not willing to make a distinction between European or Asian goat skins. Hence all frame drum playing will be forbidden.
Any person will be persecuted who
- has ever played a bodhran
- has ever owned a bodhran
- is a member of a family who is known to have had connections with bodhrans
- has been reported because of un-European musical connections.'
The bodhran is surely untainted by association with fascism.
If some historians of the music are to be believed, it came along too late for that particular gig.
If the BNP get a public airing and questioning on BBC TV, maybe The English Defence League could come along too. Then they could have a fight. I wonder how long it will be before they are having turf wars in Birmingham.
I'm not hinting at any fascist connection of the bodhran, I only meant to demonstrate the absurdity. So please - don't go and call any slightly intolerant person a Nazi.
" Schools in England will be encouraged to celebrate May Day and other ancient festivals, whilst the other folk nations of the British Isles will be encouraged to resurrect their ancestral folk traditions.
We will introduce the requirement that all children will be taught English as their first language in Britain , but also learn about their local ancestral language as well. This
will apply to Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Scots Gallic, Doric or Lallans in Great Britain , and Ulster Lallans and Gaelic in Northern Ireland. English children will also be given an appreciation of the language of the Anglo-Saxon folk and to appreciate the beauty of Anglo-Saxon culture, such as its poetry, art and the meaning of citizenship.
Those from foreign ethnic backgrounds resident in Britain will be given the choice of either having their children educated in Faith or Folk schools that will teach them the traditions and heritage of their ancestral cultures, or of attending classes in schools that educate them about their ancestral heritage. We believe that all children suffer when deprived of their right to an ancestral identity and contact with their cultural roots.
We will encourage black and ethnic minority schools and religious schools run by parents and staff that educate those children as to their ancestral heritage and instil pride in their culture and ethnicity.
The handing out of National Lottery funds to so-called ‘modern art’ projects that insult and degrade (as of course they are intended to) the very name of art, has become a minor national scandal, almost as bad as the way in which money from the same fund is repeatedly handed to politically correct rather than popular causes. The boards which decide on lottery grant applications should be picked by ballot from lists of individuals who have raised significant sums of money for local charities, not appointed by the government or other members of the out-of-touch liberal elite.
Music, including training to play a musical instrument, should be compulsory in schools between the ages of five and fourteen. From fourteen upwards, every effort should be made to encourage those children who have shown musical talent to play for their own and their peers’ entertainment. "
Solidmahog, i cannot disagree with your point that we should all act within our own lives. I do think though that a focus such as FAF can also be a positive.
You also have a valid point that such anti movements can be painted as being of the "far left" . Perhaps the counter to this is to demonstrate that the opposition to extremism does not originate solely in the opposite extreme but comes from a broad range of people,
I was addressing my comments on the bodhran to llig, just above! Our posts crossed. (NB - I have no reason to suggest llig's a fascist...)
The English Defence League is supposedly out to defend and protect English values and traditions. This means, in practise, going out to annoy and fight the Muslims. They had a march in Birmingham last Saturday - I think - which resulted in a lot of aggro. They seem to consist of retired football hooligans.
The BNP claims a more varied and respectable base than this, but the difference is not important. Their aims are the same - (1) to attack people, (2) to claim that they are the *real* underdogs, and also the only people who can save the nation, and (3) the only people who represent a white working class marginalised by the system as it is at present.
They have some open goals to shoot at. That is part of the trouble. I'm sure this was true of the Nazis on their way to power. One of these is the presence of militant Islamism and firebrand clerics. But history shows that the Far Right thrives on scuffles and disorder, especially when it and other stuff becomes too much for normal politics to cope with. The EDL used an Islamist protest in Luton as a pretext for having their own in Birmingham - which is how these things escalate.
Thanks, Nic.
This phenomenon is familiar to me. Boots on one side, suits on the other, fighting for the same aims.
The way decisions are made and countries are run leaves a lot of people frustrated because they feel they have no influence at all. Human rights, justice, equality, they all need to be fought for permanently. I hope Ptarmigan doesn't call be a left-wing radical because of this conclusion
A fellow-sessioner, seeing me in customary ragged attire, suggested I should front a movement called "Folk Against Fashion"!!!!!...?
Perhaps she had been partaking of elixirs distilled from the bile of gannets by theocrats on guano-basted Atlantic reefs theoretically attached to her parental land of origin, good for swinging the Barnett Formula I suppose but otherwise a bit of a random mash-up of midges, morasses and Minches which for some reason can't be put through the masher and turned into the hard-core and hanging basket compost South-East England so desperately needs.
(N.B. bogman and others - I don't mean any of this....)
Collecting myself, I realised that the fashion non-statements of the folk world had been adequately made by many well before I came along.
The Bothy Band wore flares - yes. Perhaps Irtrad was more fashion-conscious than UK - trad. But there is no doubt that in the 70s folk / trad had a particularly high profile among the young, including those who might be movers and shakers of fashion, and there is no doubt it was the decade taste forgot.
Could these things be connected? Did folk breathe a dire mould over fashion?
Fashion has always followed cliques. In the mid 70s the main two among the young were:
Hippie/rocker which developed into its extreme form of glam. Glam was really very much the same style cut of clothes, but in shiny material. The Bothy Band were pretty straight forward hippie/rocker with a little hint of 50s throw back with Tommy People's hair. Then a nostalgic throw back to Carnaby street with Kevin Burk's jaunty bunnet.
Punk. Folkies didn't do punk 'cause punk was anti music.
Later in to the 80s, fashion got a lot more disparate. There was the occasional fashionable folkie with the perm and the shoulder pads - Babera Dickson, but mostly, by this time, folkies were very unfashionable. From the general hippie scruff bags to the very specific carabina and tankard styled accessories. There were even crap punk throwbacks - the pogues - who, of course, were anti music.
Later, there's been folkie goths, folkie crusties, folkie Laura Ashleys, etc.
All of which belies the total numptyness of the fascists. They advise their followers to infiltrate folkie circles, thereby creating a marginalised section of an already marginalised section.
I say "Folk For Fascism"
Come on guys, let them in. If the fascists are successful, if we let them in, then they will remain, by default, forever marginalised. We could look after them like you'd look after a dangerous dog. Keep it in a cage away from children. Put a muzzle on it and a strong lead when you take it for a walk. The last thing you'd want to do with a dangerous dog is pic a fight with it.
I really, really like the idea of folkagainstfascism given the background of what the BNP seems to be doing. I've got two problems with it though:
- compared to the situation here, i'd rather need a "folk against conservatism"-movement. As a side effect, that would work nicely against fascims/nationalism too (given that conservatism is unfortunately very often the root of these). And such a proposition would cause MAJOR discussions here, i guess
- why oh why do the stickers/logos look like something out of the veeery deepest seventies? I wasn't even born when Woodie Guthrie ( i think it is?) painted his guitar. ö
Somebody in the past pointed out that you can have Scottish Nationalists, Welsh Nationalists, and Irish Nationalists, but when you have English Nationalists they become fascists.
Why ?
I don't know.
The manifesto printed by Random notes above is very alluring, you just have to understand that, like David Cameron's caring compassionate Conservatism, there is a bedrock of underlying hate and contempt for all those not of their own type, and if they got in power this would all come out in the most nasty and unpleasant way.
Michael, your notion that if the fascists are allowed on to the folkie bandwagon they will be exposed for the numpties that they are, and be laughed at. Just remember Hitler employed Germanic folk traditions to his ends.
"Somebody in the past pointed out that you can have Scottish Nationalists, Welsh Nationalists, and Irish Nationalists, but when you have English Nationalists they become fascists.
Why?"
I don't think that is necessarily true or at least it shouldn't be. English nationalism doesn't need to be about Fascism. It is just that right now that seems to be how it is leaning. As I said above it might be because of a lack of clarity about what being English as opposed to British means. This is something that Billy Bragg has been trying to rectify.
Woody Guthrie was alive from 1912 to 1967 so his guitar was saying "This machine kills fascists" long before the 70s, as early as the 30s. I like the retro look of the stickers. I want one.
I never said that if the fascists are allowed on to the folkie bandwagon they will be exposed for the numpties that they are, I said that if the were allowed on to the folkie bandwagon they'd be contained. Doomed forever to the marginalisation of the crapest bandwagon there ever was.
If they can, then they'll be in a better position than the majority of folkies to turn the non-existent folkie bandwagon into something that may well gain a bit of support.
I don't agree fascism and conservatism are the same -at any rate in the UK, and the settled Western world in general.
Conservatism - and I'm really thinking of it in the UK - is the home of people who can find their way about and prosper (variably) in a system based, among other things, on knowledge and on sorting out ongoing problems and issues by discussion and debate, not by violence. This is at the centre of our democracies, however flawed they are and however dodgy the things that sometimes get done in their name. Conservatives don't usually want to overturn this system: they feel secure in it - though they often wish they could turn the clock back to what they see as a better, former version of it.
Fascists want to overthrow it, because often they feel it has marginalised or insulted them. They want to do away with the rule of law and the solution of problems by knowledge and reasoned speech, and to bring in a system based on one-sided terror instead, which is surely worse than what we have now, which is what conservatives on the whole want to maintain.
If a state is in melt-down - maybe through fascist subversion as much as anything else - then conservatives may well persuade themselves that only the fascists have the solution, and give them support out of fear of some alternative. But that doesn't mean they have the same outlook from the start. At least, that's my view.
Nicholas, that was as elegant and eloquent an attempt at damage control as I,ve ever read. Nicely done. I can't get past the perception that fascism, and nazism were right wing phenomena, though. It,s because of my U.S. perspective. Our Republicans would be well to the right of your Conservative Party, while our Democrats would be possibly to their right or maybe left -- I'm not sure. You couldn't describe our Dems as being over the center. Right now, it is our Republicans who are behaving like agrieved, angry and marginalized people.
Why are the logos from the middle of the last century?
In honour of Woody Guthrie, I believe, who deserves to be remembered. And showing that 'ram-politics-down-your throat' leftists are conservative at heart. Unavoidable when you deal with any musical tradition perhaps?
Looking up the Republican and Democrat Parties on wikipedia, I haven't as yet taken the trouble to read my way through (and I don't promise to get round to this...), but I could see they both have very complicated and convoluted histories! So I haven't arrived at a simple and snap idea of what each one stands for. But I can see that they don't really fit the template of the Conservative and Labour Parties over here.
For all that, I take it that the present-day Republicans dislike the expansion of central government and the higher taxes and increased central control that would go with this, while the Democrats would seem to favour these. To that extent, if this is the case, they'd think like the Conservatives and Labour respectively here in the UK.
Mosely would likely have approved of the tactics of the people who have been interupting the health-care debates here. Has modern English Conservatism produced anyone comparable to our Sen. Joe McCarthy? When he and his buddies over in the House (HUAC) were up to their antics, did English Conservatives regard it all with revulsion, or maybe envy?
I imagine British Conservatives gave McCarthy little thought. No such personality comes to my mind in British politics, c1950-1960. There was no overt anti-Communist witch-hunt, though no doubt the secret services assiduously kept tabs on known or suspected Communist sympathisers.
(Stalin & co did penetrate the US system to the extent of getting the secrets of the Bomb, so as far as I can see the USA was justified in seeing Commies as a security hazard, however unpleasant McCarthy and others were in their individual pursuits.)
Adult men in Britain in the Fifties had all lived through one or both wars or were doing National Service. It wasn't really a time of energetic political or cultural wars or crusades, although there were such things as the Aldermarston Marches (agains the Bomb). The ex-WW2 generation just wanted to pick up a normal, undisturbed life - which often went with resentment of change and, importantly, of the young.
Censorship had been part of official British life for a long time - it did not have to be pursued by freelance witch-hunters like McCarthy. It was tested in the Fifties, then lost a landmark case when a prosecution failed against the publishers of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" (D.H.Lawrence) in 1960.
Thanks for the reply, nicholas. You may well have been one of the "Resented young" in your day. Even decades back frome service in the Pacific -- that was the situation around here -- many of those men didn't know how to deal with kids. It took that bunch a long, long time to decompress.
It wasn't easy being a kid of lefty parents in the 50s in the UK and I was puzzled as we had been allies of the Russians in WW2. As I grew up it became clearer but there was prejudice and a more subtle witch hunt.
I was proud that my Dad and his mates had fought for the Republic in Spain but it was held against him by a lot of people.
Anyhow the lefties got me into a lot of folk music as did the Boy Scouts and climbing and the Co-op movement and camps and Miss Hedgewick at junior school where folk was on the curriculum, And the Irish family members got me into the songs and music so I'm grateful and proud of the heritage. the patriotc songs were fun but I did refuse to be in a 'n****r minstrel 'show in the cubs. When Paul Robeson has come to a party at your council house you get a different view on the world!
Skiffle and blues led to the 50s folk movemment and they were linked to support for civil rights and tolerance.
We took down the picture of Uncle Joe Stalin later!!
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.” - Benito Mussolini
I posit that Folk Against Fascism then is against all the mergers of state and corporate, which means they do not support the current western (US, UK, etc.) governmental systems, which are the greatest historical mergers of corporate and state power, which we mistakently call 'capitalism'.
Folk Against Fascism
Folk Against Fascism
This is a new organization in UK formed to combat the move by the British National Party (far right) to annexe traditional and folk music, song and dance and performance. e.g. St George's Day celebrations, mumming plays where eastern princes get killed.
The BNP advice to activists and organizers is to get into this sort of activity to stress 'Britishness'
Can or should Folk be non political? The 1950s revival was much influenced by the Left and many songs in sessions are songs of resistance and nationalism.
Are we safer just playing tunes and not giving them names or places of origin!
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I suggest you let music speak for itself and ignore attempts by cloth-eared idiots of whatever political stripe to annex it for their own use.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Bren
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Have you got a link to this new organisation ? I know a few prospective members up here in Newcastle
For those who play Irish music in the UK, the BNP consider this Foreign music ( lets not do the where does the music come from thread again ) such simplistic mumberlings from the BNP should come as no surprize to anyone .
Its not that long ago in the UK that people could advertise no blacks or Irish need apply without illegality and sadly many did .
Lets not go back there.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
By definition, folk not only can be but must be non-political. It is the music of the people who are playing it, and can't be usurped.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by gam
Re: Folk Against Fascism
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/culture/arts/in-focus/struggle-for-the-politics-of-folk
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I am a member, not of the BNP who are wimps, but the Folk against Fascism.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I remember "Folk Against Fascism" being used as a slogan immediately after the "Rock Against Racism" movement back in 1976. Can't find anything on the net now though ... just this new stuff taking on the name. Ah well, the thought's still the same.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Wimps? too mild a word I fear.
One of the things I like about the session scene is how many people who are none Irish who play it. The futility and short sightedness of those who propergate the division of anything based on such an outdated consept of the purity of an indeviduals blood is self evident.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Geez, I got a headache reading the last part of that post there, Dave.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I find tune names with historical significance or inuendo interesting and part of the charm. If the tune name has its origin in something I disagree with, though, I won't get in a pub fight over it.
Our tunes are probably considered foriegn music or "world Music" here in the US.
Is the BNP really fascist, or do we try to stick them with that label because we disagree with them. I know nothing about them. What tune names would they find either offensive or supportive to thier political agenda?
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by feardearg
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Are they really fascist..........er...Yes!
They promote books that deny the Nazi war crimes, call for repatriation of none whites, make Mosques illegal, homosexuality should be made a crime, invite the leader of the kkk to meetings ...... Anything else?
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Oh yes I forgot spread deliberate lies about ethnic minorities to start riots.
Seems like a Fascist organisation to me. Unless anyone has another definition.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I suspect they would not like the 'the rights of man'
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
This logo kills fascists:
http://www.folkagainstfascism.com/
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Mike Floorstand
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Thanks for the link mike
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
They are white supremacists despite efforts to seem reasonable. They recently won two MEP seats in the European elections in England, hence a lot of the recent furore.
"By definition, folk not only can be but must be non-political. It is the music of the people who are playing it, and can't be usurped."
This is quite clearly nonsense. The folk tradition has always been highly political whether that be songs and tunes about war and death or emigration. In Ireland a lot of the folk traditions have revolved around the political struggles of freedom and independence. In Scotland the focus, historically has been on Socialism, Jacobitism and Independence. In England Socialism appears too as well as lots of Napoleonic songs and songs of class division. In America the tradition focusses on the Revolutionary War and the Civil War and then Equal Rights and the Black struggle. Immigration naturally features strongly.
My point is that you can not divorce folk and traditional music from politics (although this website tries). It is precisely because folk music is the music of the people that makes it so highly political. The folk tradition is the tradition of people's experiences and struggles. If it is not political then it is nothing.
As far as the Folk Against Fascism group is concerned it has a Facebook page, of which I am a member. I believe the organisation itself was started by Kit Bailey, the daughter of Folk legend Roy Bailey and wife of Martin Simpson.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Against Fascism
One of the things I like about the session scene is how many people who are none Irish who play it. The futility and short sightedness of those who propergate the division of anything based on such an outdated consept of the purity of an indeviduals blood is self evident.
Dave, I didn't really understand what you said, but by God I defend your right to say it.!
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Folk Against Fascism
The bnp would not let me say it . If they were in power. That's the point
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
How does Billy Bragg feel about all of this? I hear his mother is half English, and he's half English too.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by gravelwalks
Re: Folk Against Fascism
But should we go with Voltaire and defend to the death their right to say it?
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Folk Against Fascism
For Transatlantic friends - yes, the BNP is a fascist organisation in the recognisable 1930s sense of the word. It is a follow-on from the National Front, active in the 60s and 70s (in assaulting coloured people, that is), which foundered, no doubt in ignominious and squalid circumstances, thereafter. The NF in turn would have got off on Oswald Mosley, the pre-war leader of The British Union Of Fascists who had another go at this stuff in the 50s, I think.
All have been preoccupied with attacking immigrants. In the 1930s, it was the Jews; since 1950, it has been the coloured immigrants and their descendants.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
http://www.billybragg.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=5374
From Billy Bragg's forum. I was slightly inaccurate above. Joannie Crump deserves the credit for starting the group although Kit Bailey is involved as well.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Fascism is not an opinion, it's a crime.
I didn't realize the BNP was getting that strong. I'm not worried about folk being "political" - of course it is. Why not adapt a mummer's play and make St. George fight the racists?
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
The BNP are doing quite well in certain areas of England and over the years have won a number of local Councillors. They have no MPs but this was the first time for them to win MEPs. They have achieved this through PR where even a relatively small percentage of votes can gain a seat. They still have very weak support in Scotland though where they have no elected representatives at all and are nowhere near to getting any.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Against Fascism
"By definition, folk not only can be but must be non-political. It is the music of the people who are playing it, and can't be usurped."
Try rephrasing that to: "... It is the music of the proletariat ..."
Now how do you feel?
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by ...
Could this be because in scotland there are other ways too be nationalistic with out beng fascist Same as in Ireland maybe ?
In England it sometimes seems to be that to be very nationalistic is seen to be fascist politically . What is nationalism in English terms .?
I dont know to be honest .I feel nationalistic and proud to be English yet I play diddly music and hate Fascists.And am thinking of going to live in France
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@kuec:
The BNP is not a big phenomenon - it's a marginal one. So far, that is. But we are living through very strange times in the UK. The two-and-a-half big parties (Labour, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats) have all forfeited credibility to an unprecedented extent, in my lifetime at any rate. They are also seen as having become to a large extent the same. Again, this is new. Up till the Nineties, Labour and the Conservatives were based on substantial and different political philosophies. The Liberal Democrats specialised in being bizarre. You took your choice.
In the short term, this actually helps them; the less interest people take in voting and party politics, the more the "political class" will actually entrench themselves and their friends and their interests, and the harder it will be to hold them to account. And those outside the circle will get angry; and they will go looking for alternative political organisations, and alternative political organisations will come looking for them. The BNP is one of these.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Nationalism is a horrid nasty thing. What makes you think that it's more acceptable in Scotland and Ireland than in England? Anyone who takes pride in any form of nationalism needs to go to the very splendid Ann Frank Museum in Amsterdam. They will be instantly cured.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Folk Against Fascism
b/dave - I think the difference is that, perceived rightly or wrongly, Scotland, Ireland and Wales were dragged into the British Empire against their will by the English. Yes, yes, I know this is a blatant oversimplification. For example, Wales was conquered by the English a long time even before Calais was lost back to the French. Scotland reluctantly joined the Union shortly after its disaster in attempting to colonise the Darien region of Panama, a folly which plunged its economy into a depression which makes the present Credit Crunch look like a tea party. And Ireland...where to begin? the Synod of Whitby? The Anglo Normans? Cromwell? 1798?
Modern Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalism consequently appear to be kind of "politically correct"...if not PC, then at least understandable as a stand against the "imperial tyrant" England. Conversely, English nationalism looks like it has been hijacked by the far right, the BNP etc. Also England has over the longer term experienced much higher levels of immigration because it is mostly wealthier thus a more attractive destination to emigrees. So it's easier for the fascists to move in and spread their vile hateful message. And it makes the task of genuine and honest English people proud and interested in preserving and sustaining their vibrant, varied and rich folk traditions, that much harder to ensure these traditions remain pure traditions untainted by right wing nationalist ideas. I believe also that he fascists have adopted the characters and ideas from JRR Tolkien books, since he yearned for a mythical England. He wasn't exactly a liberal leftie but I'm sure he'd be turning in his grave if he knew how his idyll has been raped.
Anyway. I'm all for this Folk against Fascism.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Folk Against Fascism
To an extent recent votes for the BNP probably came as a backlash to the expenses scandal and out of frustration at the economy. Now I think about it I believe the BNP vote actually went down a little bit but because so may folk stayed away from the polling stations their vote increased in percentage terms.
Bazouki Dave - I think it is true to say that Nationalism in England is a relatively new and awkward concept that folk struggle with. In Scotland, Wales and Ireland there has always been a strong sense of National social and cultural identity. In England much of this has been tied in to the Union Flag and Britishness. For many it has been hard to separate England and Britain and identify what is special about an English identity. This is a real shame and is something that people like Billy Bragg have been fighting to foster, a sense of Englishness.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Against Fascism
That's more or less what I just said, ncfa
Llig, I don't hate all nationalism, not if it can lead to emancipation. But I have to admit the worst nationalism I've seen is by certain Scots against English people resident in Scotland. Swearing and verbally abusing and spitting at them on the Underground in Glasgow. That made me ashamed that we couldn't welcome people into our country. As a Scot now resident in England, I have never suffered anything like that from English people - only from drunken Irishmen!
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I blame "Trainspotting"...
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Maybe lost it. I certainly am not going to disagree with you but we cross-posted. My thoughts were all my own.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Nationalism is a horrid nasty thing. What makes you think that it's more acceptable in Scotland and Ireland than in England? Anyone who takes pride in any form of nationalism needs to go to the very splendid Ann Frank Museum in Amsterdam. They will be instantly cured.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Wonderful post. Nationalists tend to think their nation is better than anyone else, whether it be Germany, Ireland, Scotland, what ever.
I do not mind a bit of patriotism, shout for the Irish at sports events, but Nationalism is dangerous.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Folk Against Fascism
What's the difference between patriotism and nationalism, then?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Maybe that a patriot serves what he sees as a bigger cause than himself, and that a nationalist thinks he *is* the cause, or at any rate embodies it.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Nationalism is the last refuge of Alex Salmond.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Folks
Doing what is best for your community (state/union/nation) is patriotism.
Nationalism equals ~ "My nation can do no wrong!"
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
No, I can't say I'm happy with any of the above definitions/distinctions. A nationalist or even a Nazi could "give" to his cause, his Fatherland, his Patrio...so, I'm sorry, I think people are just playing with semantics here.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Rudall the time
Danny, are you ever happy?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Patriotism v. Nationalism
My Webster's dictionary has almost the same primary definition ("loyalty and devotion to one's country/a nation") but adds the following for nationalism: "exalting one nation above all others and placing a primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations."
So, many self-styled patriots are actually nationalists. And they consider real patriots (who are dedicated to lofty principles, as nicholas pointed out) to be traitors. An interesting distinction that is often overlooked, lately.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Should we defend their right to speak their mind? Absoutely.
The more they speak, the more opportunities they have to confirm their stupidity, and the more evidence we have of their vile and hateful views.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Folk Against Fascism
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/09/03/ezra-levant-it-s-a-great-day-for-freedom-of-speech.aspx
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
"The more they speak, the more opportunities they have to confirm their stupidity"
I have always believed insistance on politically correct speech is dangerous and counterproductive. In the day, we all knew who the racists, sexists, and other creeps were because they never kept their mouth shut. Now we don't know who they are. Those whose tender feelings were hurt by words are still getting shafted but now they don't know by whom.
Free Speech. Source of a multitude of blessings. Yet on the wane.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by feardearg
Re: Folk Against Fascism
In the news today
it seems the BBC are considering having the BNP on question time (flagship political discussion program) I wonder if they will come in uniform.?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
If people would leave at expressing their opinions verbally I'd agree with 'free speech for everyone'. But the Nazis don't leave it at that. They threaten, injure and kill.
As you may know we have serious problems with right-wing violence in East Germany (in parts of the west, too.) Then again you might not know because it's being swept under the carpet officialy.
A young member of my own family, singer in a leftist rock band, was beaten up by a Nazi after a gig. He suffered serious head injuries. And this was not an isolated case.
So be aware. Nazis use the freedom they enjoy in a democracy to fight it. Not just with words.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Well said kuec it's difficult to have free speech for those who do not believe in it but if we limit it do we become like those we seek to challenge.
I wonder what ever happened to the Blue Shirts?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Blue shirts were worn by members of the youth organization in the GDR. You mean black or brown ones?
I have strong feelings about this matter because it is not just theoretical to me. There was a violent attack by organized Nazis on the trade union meeting in Dortmund on May 1st, just down the road from here. Yesterday there was a Nazi march in the same city because a court had ruled it was to be allowed. If you leave the streets to these people it will have consequences for those they don't like.
I'm not afraid of becoming intolerant when I stand up against racism. Looking back at history I wouldn't want to be told (again) that we didn't stand in for human rights for non-whites or homosexuals. I see those rights seriously threatened.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Blue shirts = irish fascists pre WII
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Try rephrasing that to: "... It is the music of the proletariat ..."
Now how do you feel?
Puzzled. In my mind 'folk' means 'people', not 'the lowest classes only capable of bearing children'.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by gam
Re: Folk Against Fascism
gam, I think the definition of Proletariat has moved on a little since the original Latin. Folk music can be considered the music of all or at least most of the people but when you live in a Capitalist industrialised Nation then most of the people in that Nation would probably be of the working class - the ones who produce the capital for those at the top.
Folk music is about the Human experience. It is therefore about the difficulties faced by Man as much as the successes. Folk music is innately political. I am surprised you can not see that.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Against Fascism
"Nationalism is a horrid nasty thing. What makes you think that it's more acceptable in Scotland and Ireland than in England? Anyone who takes pride in any form of nationalism needs to go to the very splendid Ann Frank Museum in Amsterdam. They will be instantly cured."
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
The big difference between the Scotish and Welsh Nationalists and the BNP is that Scottish and Welsh Notionalism is concerned only with government. No one in Scoltland or Wales is suggesting that they should close their borders, or evict 'foreigners'. The Scottish and Welsh Nationalist parties welcome menbers from other ethnic groups, and happliy accept that the 'nation' embraces ALL the people living in the country.
Unlike the BNP.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by skreech
Re: Folk Against Fascism
The argument as to what 'folk' is goes back to dear old J.G. Herder's term Volkslied, coined in 1773. Every generation has had it's own view since then.
The trouble started when 'folk' was being equalled with 'nation'. I'd like to quote A.L. Lloyd once more: 'The mother of folklore is poverty' even if this seems inappropriate today. Exchange 'poverty' for 'the struggle to survive' or even 'The Pursuit of Happiness'.
No Cause For Alarm has expressed it very nicely. The Human experience, yes.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Llig in kind of depends on the specifics of the nationalism in question. The triumphalist nationalism of powerful countries intent on imperial asperations is to my mind rather different from the wish of smaller, or less powerfull, nations to run their own affairs.
Contrast the old school British form of nationalism that celebrated the empire with the nationalisms of India, Ireland, and numerous former African colonies opposing that rule and struggling for independence.
I'm not going to ouch the Scottish issue here as it isn't entirely one nor t'other to my mind and more fraught with amibiguity
- Chris
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Skreech:
>The big difference between the Scotish and Welsh >Nationalists and the BNP is that Scottish and Welsh >Notionalism is concerned only with government. No one in >Scoltland or Wales is suggesting that they should close their >borders, or evict 'foreigners'. The Scottish and Welsh >Nationalist parties welcome menbers from other ethnic >groups, and happliy accept that the 'nation' embraces ALL >the people living in the country.
>Unlike the BNP
Yes. I'd agree with that. Whether or not you support the Scottish or Welsh Nationalists, they are clearly of a different stripe to the BNP and various European "nationalist" parties that are primarily concerned with obtaining an ethnically pure homeland.
That isn't to say that the phenomenon of anti-English rascism doesn't exist in Scotland (can't speak for Wales). But it doesn't form the basis of the SNP's political platform.
- chris
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Folk Against Fascism
every nationalist aggressor starts out by portraying itself as the underdog
there is an invisible line between small-nation self-determination and big-nation chauvinism and nobody really knows when they've crossed it
Look at what's happening to Russian minorities in the independent Baltic republics
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Bren
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I don't recall Britain presenting itsfl as an underdog in realtion to its former colonies
The Russian minorities in those states are being subjected to the ethnic version on "nationalism".
I do agree that nationalism as an end in itself is not a particularly worthy cause, and frequently more than dubious. (For waht it matters I've never voted for a Nationalist party in any election, although I have voted for parties that have been pro-independence) but there is nothing inherently wrong with wishing to be independent of foreign control.
- chris
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Stand up for Fascism
u all talk some sh ite
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Ahem! I see from http://www.folkagainstfascism.com/ that the emblem of this group is a guitar - we don't be playing guitars, do we?
But to comment on the matter in hand ... sure groups of all hues have always taken music and bent it to suit their message. And not just facists or racists, everybody's at it and if it's good enough for organisations and groups that we 'approve of' to do this, then it has to be good enough for those we oppose too. That's the basis of freedom of expression etc., is it not? So let the BNP at it, for all I care - it doesn't mean that you need to agree with them.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Once again it looks different from this side of the channel. We lost what was left of our musical tradition almost completely because of claims the Nazis made.
If the BNP is big enough for some musicians thinking it necessary to get organized against them its probably not lack of tolerance that guides 'folk against fascism'.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism is Not the Way Ahead
There are nasty people everywhere who will seek to marginalize any minority to serve as a focus to further their nasty aims/unstated agenda, either socially or politically. Muslims seem to be bearing the brunt of BNP hate mongering at the moment, just as Asylum Seekers did in the days before 9/11. The war on terror as produced a handy ready made form of Orwellian style hate for the digestion of masses which is easy for the hate mongers to manipulate for their wider aims. The media has much to answer for in this regard.
I take people as I find them and accept anyone into my company provided their personal conduct is not offensive toward others enjoying the craic. It's that simple.
The best thing we can do IMO is to engage people and show by example that craic is not dependent on belonging to any ethno political group but rather non partisan inclusiveness with a glad heart being where it's at (we'r awe jock tamsans bairns, an awe that). Most people are looking for craic in life and as people like us are often the focus for such, on occasion; lead by example I say. Confrontation seldom benefits the cause one seeks to further as it's all to easily misconstrued or twisted around. The BNP have learned this, it's about time non fascists did also.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Yeah, if only we could all be like you, Trucks ;-p
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Solidmahog
"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."
Pastor Niemöller
the BNP are the National Front, are Moseley's Blackshirts,
Folk Against Fascism simply opposes their attempts to twist the "music of the people" to racist ends
Steve
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by selston steve
Re: Folk Against Fascism
selston steve, my point is influence those around you to the positive, tell the guy next to you in the pub or the folks at the bus stop. Any anti pressure group gets lumped with the radical left by the fascist spin machine and the mainstream media. The positive propaganda these BNP cunewts make from that gets them sympathy from the right of center Joe who dislikes the radical left, they then turn against you thus countering your well intentioned action. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating silence, rather, influencing those you can where you find it lurking under the surface. Going out your way to find it is counter productive giving succor to their cause. It was easy to dislike skinhead's with swastika and NF tattoos but these guys project themselves as mainstream and in my opinion this can only be countered by mainstream opposition that the normal sun reading Joe can identify with.
Fortunately, although on the rise they are few.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Given the derision in which English folk musicians and, especially dancers, are held by the majority of the population, perhaps we should be *encouraging* the BNP to take up folk music.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Britain has of course been imperialist, but has not (on the UK mainland) had a strongly militaristic tradition embedded in its domestic politics. That has put a brake on home-grown fascism, which tends to make its appeal to this. As far as I'm aware the same applies in the USA, for all that patriotism is determinedly inculcated there.
But the "discourse" on fascism in the UK has been muddied by the tendency of a load of people since early postwar to (a) label as a fascist practically anyone who wore a suit, had short hair, lived a conventional life and/or voted Conservative, (b) assume that they themselves were entirely above the temptations and fears that induced people to promote / go along with fascism elsewhere, and (c) fantasise about it happening here, so that they could shine as heroes and resisters. Hence, lots of broken glass and hurt policemen.
(a) was antagonism to the people probably least likely to generate fascism anywhere. (b) was part of a general national superiority complex. (c) shows a gross divorce from reality, born of being protected from actual experience of fascism and of watching too many war films.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
The BNP heirarchy includes several people who have been, or are being investigated and occasionally charged and convicted of various offences, e.g, incitement to racial hatred, violence. They masquerade as a political party and have attempted to rebrand themselves as suits not boots, but they are essentially an ill-assorted collection of racists who are trying to manipulate the instruments of a reasonably democratic and tolerant country to their own foul ends.
One thing I have done is to engage in a conversation with the General Teaching Council(GTC) (England), a quango which regulates teaching in the UK to interrogate them on their policy of not banning BNP members from teaching in English schools (the Metropolitan Police force in London already operates such a ban). Anyone can write/email the GTC
(http://www.gtce.org.uk/media_parliament/news_comment/party_members211108/), you don't have to be a teacher. Anyone who teaches in a maintained school in the UK always has to sign an equal opps policy statement, or they won't employ you. So how could a BNP member agree to such a policy?, etc. Would you want your kids taught by one of these guys?
Doing nothing about these people is not an option, in my view.
Max
If anyone's interested I can give you more info on this issue.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by pfft
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Given the derision in which English folk musicians and, especially dancers, are held by the majority of the population, perhaps we should be *encouraging* the BNP to take up folk music.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ethical
They need no encouragement. Not only have the BNP set themselves up as self-appointed 'defenders of the tradition', They are also selling folk music compilation CDs on their website. This was the main spur for the creation of Folk Against Fascism. Not only is the BNP profiting on the backs of the artists concerned, but also gives the impression that these musicians are supporters of the party, when nothing could be further from the truth. The Albion Band and various others have been trying desparately to prevent the BNP using their material, but it seems they are legally powerless.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by skreech
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Are the record labels selling on tracks of artists on their books to the BNP for, or as, compilations? Or are the BNP pirating these?
Not that The Albion Band ever floated my boat. The BNP are welcome to it.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Well, no, the BNP are a bad thing and their pirating the Albion Band is a bad thing and I'm sure the band have no sympathy with the BNP and would hate their music to be used by them.
It's just that their sledgehammer take on EngTrad seems (to me) to be mystically at one with a mosh-pit of bumbling British Nazis wallowing about in a muddy field in the middle of no-where surrounded by preposterous insignia and burger vans.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Worry when the "Old Right" -- and that would be the old wealth, old military, old power -- decides that, however preposterous national socialists may seem, these clowns enjoy a certain popularity, and could be put to other uses.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@Atahualpa:
I may be wrong, but I get the impression the Fascists and the Nazis took the initiative and ran rings round the old guard, annexing them to their purposes, rather than the other way round.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Only after the Junkers supported them in the first place Nic .
Without that initial support Hitler may have remained a minor party
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Mussolini, back in the early days, defined fascism as corporatism. Was he thinking of our U.S. model, where government is subservient to the purposes big business? (i'm reluctant to quote Mussolini on anything; but fascism was his baby.)
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Are the record labels selling on tracks of artists on their books to the BNP for, or as, compilations? Or are the BNP pirating these?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
It appears that bands are duped into agreeing to their work being included in compilations for distribution through gift shops. Once they have agreed they thenhave no control over how or where the disks are sold. And it's not just The Albion Band - Steve Knightley, Jon Spiers, Billy Bragg, Pink Floyd, Bluur and even Ulster band Brier have fallen foul.
You can read more detail here:
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/arts_entertainment/bands+slam+bnp+over+music+sales/3176097
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by skreech
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@nicholas Each thought they had the other on a tight leash.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I must admit to seeing it ironic the BNP selling Billy Bragg records
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Atahualpa, Mussolini was a master of persuasive rhetoric.
What he was thinking was exactly that (persuasion), pure & simple.
IMHO a bit of skepticism is always healthy when listening to a speech filled with symbolism or emotion or persuasion. Is it too good to be true?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
One wonders if Fascism or Nazism would have happened at all if it had not been for the individuals who started them up.
Circumstances were just such that very many people were easily magnetised in their direction.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
The First World War, its aftermath, and consequences helped no end.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
. . .
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/BNP_uk_manifesto.pdf
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Good to see the generally high level of debate from a broad community. When I started the thread I wondered if it would merely get partisan
Even Vera Lynn felt moved to announce her resentment at being appropriated by the BNP!
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Folk Against Fascism
What's fascism?,
Is that like saying there's only one way of playing Irish music?
Or NO BODHRANS!
Or "you're playing that too fast/too slow , too loud / too soft"
Out of tune? hahahahah
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Folk Against Fascism
It's a bl@@dy disgrace to see the far right using folk music like this!
Come to think of it though, it's just as distasteful, having to put up with see all those far left singer/songwriters, who use folk music to ram their politics down our throats, at concerts & festivals!
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Folk Against Fascism
You mean if I say,"no bodhrans" I'm a fascist?
Or would I have to say it in caps?
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by ...
Re: Folk Against Fascism
At the final concert at Towersey, last weekend, both Martin Carthy and one of his nieces from the Watersons were wearing "Folk against Fascism" t-shirts.
You have to give it to the man, he's always been consistent. And a great concert too.
There was a tv broadcast in the US of A a while ago, that was repeated in the UK. Whoever it was, the John Birch Society or whoever, insisted that they had the right to free speech, and to help they enlisted the assistance of the National Council for Civil Liberties, who sent along a lawyer, a black lawyer, who sat on the platform with them and was plainly embarassed at being there. However, they showed themselves to be such dunderheads that it was an absolute own goal.
Let them speak, they will show themselves up.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Hussar:
>Ahem! I see from http://www.folkagainstfascism.com/ that the
>emblem of this group is a guitar - we don't be playing guitars,
>do we?
Fiddle and 5-string banjo versions available here:
http://www.myspace.com/folkagainstfascism.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Mike Floorstand
Re: Folk Against Fascism
To take the No Bodhrans example - just to illustrate how fascists think:
'Importing goat skins from Pakistan is giving support to our muslim enemies. We are not willing to make a distinction between European or Asian goat skins. Hence all frame drum playing will be forbidden.
Any person will be persecuted who
- has ever played a bodhran
- has ever owned a bodhran
- is a member of a family who is known to have had connections with bodhrans
- has been reported because of un-European musical connections.'
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
The bodhran is surely untainted by association with fascism.
If some historians of the music are to be believed, it came along too late for that particular gig.
If the BNP get a public airing and questioning on BBC TV, maybe The English Defence League could come along too. Then they could have a fight. I wonder how long it will be before they are having turf wars in Birmingham.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I'm not hinting at any fascist connection of the bodhran, I only meant to demonstrate the absurdity. So please - don't go and call any slightly intolerant person a Nazi.
Nicholas - what is the English Defense League?
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by kuec
BNP Manifesto
Art and Culture
" Schools in England will be encouraged to celebrate May Day and other ancient festivals, whilst the other folk nations of the British Isles will be encouraged to resurrect their ancestral folk traditions.
We will introduce the requirement that all children will be taught English as their first language in Britain , but also learn about their local ancestral language as well. This
will apply to Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Scots Gallic, Doric or Lallans in Great Britain , and Ulster Lallans and Gaelic in Northern Ireland. English children will also be given an appreciation of the language of the Anglo-Saxon folk and to appreciate the beauty of Anglo-Saxon culture, such as its poetry, art and the meaning of citizenship.
Those from foreign ethnic backgrounds resident in Britain will be given the choice of either having their children educated in Faith or Folk schools that will teach them the traditions and heritage of their ancestral cultures, or of attending classes in schools that educate them about their ancestral heritage. We believe that all children suffer when deprived of their right to an ancestral identity and contact with their cultural roots.
We will encourage black and ethnic minority schools and religious schools run by parents and staff that educate those children as to their ancestral heritage and instil pride in their culture and ethnicity.
The handing out of National Lottery funds to so-called ‘modern art’ projects that insult and degrade (as of course they are intended to) the very name of art, has become a minor national scandal, almost as bad as the way in which money from the same fund is repeatedly handed to politically correct rather than popular causes. The boards which decide on lottery grant applications should be picked by ballot from lists of individuals who have raised significant sums of money for local charities, not appointed by the government or other members of the out-of-touch liberal elite.
Music, including training to play a musical instrument, should be compulsory in schools between the ages of five and fourteen. From fourteen upwards, every effort should be made to encourage those children who have shown musical talent to play for their own and their peers’ entertainment. "
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Solidmahog, i cannot disagree with your point that we should all act within our own lives. I do think though that a focus such as FAF can also be a positive.
You also have a valid point that such anti movements can be painted as being of the "far left" . Perhaps the counter to this is to demonstrate that the opposition to extremism does not originate solely in the opposite extreme but comes from a broad range of people,
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by selston steve
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I've just added a link to the FAF myspace-page onto my website.
Many of you could, too...
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@kuec:
I was addressing my comments on the bodhran to llig, just above! Our posts crossed. (NB - I have no reason to suggest llig's a fascist...)
The English Defence League is supposedly out to defend and protect English values and traditions. This means, in practise, going out to annoy and fight the Muslims. They had a march in Birmingham last Saturday - I think - which resulted in a lot of aggro. They seem to consist of retired football hooligans.
The BNP claims a more varied and respectable base than this, but the difference is not important. Their aims are the same - (1) to attack people, (2) to claim that they are the *real* underdogs, and also the only people who can save the nation, and (3) the only people who represent a white working class marginalised by the system as it is at present.
They have some open goals to shoot at. That is part of the trouble. I'm sure this was true of the Nazis on their way to power. One of these is the presence of militant Islamism and firebrand clerics. But history shows that the Far Right thrives on scuffles and disorder, especially when it and other stuff becomes too much for normal politics to cope with. The EDL used an Islamist protest in Luton as a pretext for having their own in Birmingham - which is how these things escalate.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Thanks, Nic.
This phenomenon is familiar to me. Boots on one side, suits on the other, fighting for the same aims.
The way decisions are made and countries are run leaves a lot of people frustrated because they feel they have no influence at all. Human rights, justice, equality, they all need to be fought for permanently. I hope Ptarmigan doesn't call be a left-wing radical because of this conclusion
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Random _notes
Nothing will ruin the musical traditions of the country faster than making it obligitory
Or maybe thats the idea ?
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@Random: RE "Art and Culture" Was this a quote from Roderick Spode? The timelessness of that style is really something.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
~
BNP Manifesto
pdf linked above
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
A fellow-sessioner, seeing me in customary ragged attire, suggested I should front a movement called "Folk Against Fashion"!!!!!...?
Perhaps she had been partaking of elixirs distilled from the bile of gannets by theocrats on guano-basted Atlantic reefs theoretically attached to her parental land of origin, good for swinging the Barnett Formula I suppose but otherwise a bit of a random mash-up of midges, morasses and Minches which for some reason can't be put through the masher and turned into the hard-core and hanging basket compost South-East England so desperately needs.
(N.B. bogman and others - I don't mean any of this....)
Collecting myself, I realised that the fashion non-statements of the folk world had been adequately made by many well before I came along.
The Bothy Band wore flares - yes. Perhaps Irtrad was more fashion-conscious than UK - trad. But there is no doubt that in the 70s folk / trad had a particularly high profile among the young, including those who might be movers and shakers of fashion, and there is no doubt it was the decade taste forgot.
Could these things be connected? Did folk breathe a dire mould over fashion?
It's really a subject for another thread...
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by nicholas
Re: FOLK AGAINST FASHION !!!!
See above...
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Fashion has always followed cliques. In the mid 70s the main two among the young were:
Hippie/rocker which developed into its extreme form of glam. Glam was really very much the same style cut of clothes, but in shiny material. The Bothy Band were pretty straight forward hippie/rocker with a little hint of 50s throw back with Tommy People's hair. Then a nostalgic throw back to Carnaby street with Kevin Burk's jaunty bunnet.
Punk. Folkies didn't do punk 'cause punk was anti music.
Later in to the 80s, fashion got a lot more disparate. There was the occasional fashionable folkie with the perm and the shoulder pads - Babera Dickson, but mostly, by this time, folkies were very unfashionable. From the general hippie scruff bags to the very specific carabina and tankard styled accessories. There were even crap punk throwbacks - the pogues - who, of course, were anti music.
Later, there's been folkie goths, folkie crusties, folkie Laura Ashleys, etc.
Folkie hiphop won't be far away.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Folk Against Fascism
All of which belies the total numptyness of the fascists. They advise their followers to infiltrate folkie circles, thereby creating a marginalised section of an already marginalised section.
I say "Folk For Fascism"
Come on guys, let them in. If the fascists are successful, if we let them in, then they will remain, by default, forever marginalised. We could look after them like you'd look after a dangerous dog. Keep it in a cage away from children. Put a muzzle on it and a strong lead when you take it for a walk. The last thing you'd want to do with a dangerous dog is pic a fight with it.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Folk Against Fascism
For what it's worth I think Nationalism is being confused with National Socialism. They can be equally nasty, but they are not the same thing
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Bloody Waankers,
You should all be taken out the back and shot.
Yes shot!
The ferkin lot of yer.
Sleep well
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I really, really like the idea of folkagainstfascism given the background of what the BNP seems to be doing. I've got two problems with it though:
- compared to the situation here, i'd rather need a "folk against conservatism"-movement. As a side effect, that would work nicely against fascims/nationalism too (given that conservatism is unfortunately very often the root of these). And such a proposition would cause MAJOR discussions here, i guess
- why oh why do the stickers/logos look like something out of the veeery deepest seventies? I wasn't even born when Woodie Guthrie ( i think it is?) painted his guitar. ö
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Mina the Fiddler
Re: Folk Against Fascism
oh hey and why do we have such trolls here as mcknowall.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Mina the Fiddler
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Somebody in the past pointed out that you can have Scottish Nationalists, Welsh Nationalists, and Irish Nationalists, but when you have English Nationalists they become fascists.
Why ?
I don't know.
The manifesto printed by Random notes above is very alluring, you just have to understand that, like David Cameron's caring compassionate Conservatism, there is a bedrock of underlying hate and contempt for all those not of their own type, and if they got in power this would all come out in the most nasty and unpleasant way.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Michael, your notion that if the fascists are allowed on to the folkie bandwagon they will be exposed for the numpties that they are, and be laughed at. Just remember Hitler employed Germanic folk traditions to his ends.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Folk Against Fascism
"Somebody in the past pointed out that you can have Scottish Nationalists, Welsh Nationalists, and Irish Nationalists, but when you have English Nationalists they become fascists.
Why?"
I don't think that is necessarily true or at least it shouldn't be. English nationalism doesn't need to be about Fascism. It is just that right now that seems to be how it is leaning. As I said above it might be because of a lack of clarity about what being English as opposed to British means. This is something that Billy Bragg has been trying to rectify.
Woody Guthrie was alive from 1912 to 1967 so his guitar was saying "This machine kills fascists" long before the 70s, as early as the 30s. I like the retro look of the stickers. I want one.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Against Fascism
I never said that if the fascists are allowed on to the folkie bandwagon they will be exposed for the numpties that they are, I said that if the were allowed on to the folkie bandwagon they'd be contained. Doomed forever to the marginalisation of the crapest bandwagon there ever was.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Folk Against Fascism
The USA need a "folk against morons" movement more than a "folk against fashion" one.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Fashion? Speaking of morons.... Try facism. I left my brain somewhere else today, clearly.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Maybe UKIP are the English Nationalist Party?
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Folk Against Fascism
What if fascists cannot carry a tune? or worse ~ what if they can?
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Folk Against Fascism
If they can, then they'll be in a better position than the majority of folkies to turn the non-existent folkie bandwagon into something that may well gain a bit of support.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@Mina The Fiddler:
I don't agree fascism and conservatism are the same -at any rate in the UK, and the settled Western world in general.
Conservatism - and I'm really thinking of it in the UK - is the home of people who can find their way about and prosper (variably) in a system based, among other things, on knowledge and on sorting out ongoing problems and issues by discussion and debate, not by violence. This is at the centre of our democracies, however flawed they are and however dodgy the things that sometimes get done in their name. Conservatives don't usually want to overturn this system: they feel secure in it - though they often wish they could turn the clock back to what they see as a better, former version of it.
Fascists want to overthrow it, because often they feel it has marginalised or insulted them. They want to do away with the rule of law and the solution of problems by knowledge and reasoned speech, and to bring in a system based on one-sided terror instead, which is surely worse than what we have now, which is what conservatives on the whole want to maintain.
If a state is in melt-down - maybe through fascist subversion as much as anything else - then conservatives may well persuade themselves that only the fascists have the solution, and give them support out of fear of some alternative. But that doesn't mean they have the same outlook from the start. At least, that's my view.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Random-even if they can carry a tune,just send for Oscar from this book:
http://www.litencyc.com/php/sworks.php?rec=true&UID=5610
I love the scene where Oscar subverts the Hitler Youth marching band by beating a waltz rhythm whilst hiding under the platform.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: Folk Against Fascism
llig, before long we would be witnessing such spectacles as torch-lit Comhaltas rallies; and then what? Were you dreaming of The lleahcim Youth?
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Nicholas, that was as elegant and eloquent an attempt at damage control as I,ve ever read. Nicely done.
I can't get past the perception that fascism, and nazism were right wing phenomena, though. It,s because of my U.S. perspective. Our Republicans would be well to the right of your Conservative Party, while our Democrats would be possibly to their right or maybe left -- I'm not sure. You couldn't describe our Dems as being over the center. Right now, it is our Republicans who are behaving like agrieved, angry and marginalized people.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
......who want to do away with this business of solving problems through law, through knowledge, and through reasoned speech.
# Posted on September 9th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Why are the logos from the middle of the last century?
In honour of Woody Guthrie, I believe, who deserves to be remembered. And showing that 'ram-politics-down-your throat' leftists are conservative at heart. Unavoidable when you deal with any musical tradition perhaps?
# Posted on September 9th 2009 by kuec
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@Atahualpa:
Looking up the Republican and Democrat Parties on wikipedia, I haven't as yet taken the trouble to read my way through (and I don't promise to get round to this...), but I could see they both have very complicated and convoluted histories! So I haven't arrived at a simple and snap idea of what each one stands for. But I can see that they don't really fit the template of the Conservative and Labour Parties over here.
For all that, I take it that the present-day Republicans dislike the expansion of central government and the higher taxes and increased central control that would go with this, while the Democrats would seem to favour these. To that extent, if this is the case, they'd think like the Conservatives and Labour respectively here in the UK.
# Posted on September 9th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Mosely would likely have approved of the tactics of the people who have been interupting the health-care debates here. Has modern English Conservatism produced anyone comparable to our Sen. Joe McCarthy? When he and his buddies over in the House (HUAC) were up to their antics, did English Conservatives regard it all with revulsion, or maybe envy?
# Posted on September 9th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
@Atahualpa:
I imagine British Conservatives gave McCarthy little thought. No such personality comes to my mind in British politics, c1950-1960. There was no overt anti-Communist witch-hunt, though no doubt the secret services assiduously kept tabs on known or suspected Communist sympathisers.
(Stalin & co did penetrate the US system to the extent of getting the secrets of the Bomb, so as far as I can see the USA was justified in seeing Commies as a security hazard, however unpleasant McCarthy and others were in their individual pursuits.)
Adult men in Britain in the Fifties had all lived through one or both wars or were doing National Service. It wasn't really a time of energetic political or cultural wars or crusades, although there were such things as the Aldermarston Marches (agains the Bomb). The ex-WW2 generation just wanted to pick up a normal, undisturbed life - which often went with resentment of change and, importantly, of the young.
Censorship had been part of official British life for a long time - it did not have to be pursued by freelance witch-hunters like McCarthy. It was tested in the Fifties, then lost a landmark case when a prosecution failed against the publishers of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" (D.H.Lawrence) in 1960.
Then the young blew up.
# Posted on September 9th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Folk Against Fascism
Thanks for the reply, nicholas. You may well have been one of the "Resented young" in your day. Even decades back frome service in the Pacific -- that was the situation around here -- many of those men didn't know how to deal with kids. It took that bunch a long, long time to decompress.
# Posted on September 9th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
PS Do you publish? If so, where can one find your stuff?
# Posted on September 9th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Folk Against Fascism
It wasn't easy being a kid of lefty parents in the 50s in the UK and I was puzzled as we had been allies of the Russians in WW2. As I grew up it became clearer but there was prejudice and a more subtle witch hunt.
I was proud that my Dad and his mates had fought for the Republic in Spain but it was held against him by a lot of people.
Anyhow the lefties got me into a lot of folk music as did the Boy Scouts and climbing and the Co-op movement and camps and Miss Hedgewick at junior school where folk was on the curriculum, And the Irish family members got me into the songs and music so I'm grateful and proud of the heritage. the patriotc songs were fun but I did refuse to be in a 'n****r minstrel 'show in the cubs. When Paul Robeson has come to a party at your council house you get a different view on the world!
Skiffle and blues led to the 50s folk movemment and they were linked to support for civil rights and tolerance.
We took down the picture of Uncle Joe Stalin later!!
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Folk Against Fascism
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.” - Benito Mussolini
I posit that Folk Against Fascism then is against all the mergers of state and corporate, which means they do not support the current western (US, UK, etc.) governmental systems, which are the greatest historical mergers of corporate and state power, which we mistakently call 'capitalism'.
In which case I say: Good on ya!
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler