for me it was the 'Monaghan Jig'...it goes all over the place in part 2 and especially part 4!
for some reason (probably 'cos I'm crap) I keep stumbling on Aaron's Key as well, although as such, that's not really tricky...it's just me I guess
A strong contender is Bill Charlton's Fancy, a Northumbrian smallpipes tune composed by Billy Pigg. It has three parts in 6/8 with a fourth and final one in fast 4/4 reel time.
It's in the Tunes base - though the 4/4 bit isn't included in the dots - and can be heard, played by Billy Pigg, via the FARNE link mentioned some way down the comments.
I got through it once (more or less) note-perfect on tin whistle in a folk club in early 1982. Indolence and timidity have restrained me from playing it since.
I imagine Bill Charlton's fancy would be a strong contender - it's probably no mean feat even on the instrument it was composed for - but I've never got past learning the first part, so I have no empirical evidence.
"I got through it once (more or less) note-perfect on tin whistle in a folk club in early 1982"
Fair play to you, Nicholas. I don't think I could have got beyond the first two bars of Three Blind Mice on the whistle in 1982.
nuwhistler - If you're specifically looking for a technical challenge, you could try tunes in difficult keys, or just take tunes you already know and transpose them into different keys (without changing whistle!). Transposing from G to D (and vice-versa) is relatively straightforward, but keys such as A, C, E, F, F# minor, G minor, D minor etc. require either half-holes or cross-fingering or both, and can be quite challenging, even on simple tunes. I once heard someone play Splendid Isolation (G dorian) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/200
The Graf Spee (C) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/581
and Kathleen's Fiddle (F) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2999
immaculately on a D whistle.
These may not be the most difficult tunes to play in these keys (perhaps this is why the said whistle player chose them). But a relatively easy tune transposed into an unusual key - say, The Maid Behind the bar in F or The Gravel Walks in G dorian - can be quite a challenge for the fingers and brain.
There are also a lot of fiddle tunes in A (e.g. The Mason's Apron, The Contradiction, Peter Street) which, when transposed into a more whistle friendly key (such as G) are a breeze, but can be a real workout if left in their original key.
Try the 'Mooncoin Jig' perhaps, in A it's played and lots of finger work. Series of octave jumps in last part are hard to play cleanly - I've heard Mary Bergin do a great job on it though on one of those Gradam Ceoil
A coulple of years after I started playing, I fell in love with a jig off the Bumblebees first album, the tune was called Across the Divide, it's in A and makes fairly liberal use of the accidentals. It took a long time (like years until my technical skills got better), to get the b part going well. The thing is, some of these great jigs are meant for fiddle, but they sound so sweet on the whistle, just take alot of work!
Balls To Hall is a rousing jig that is in E Minor in part 1 and goes into E Major in part 2. It was composed by the late Joe Scurfield, who lived for a long time in Newcastle upon Tyne. Sir John Hall is / was a prominent personage of that area: what he did to incur Joe's wrath I don't know - anyway, both have been immortalised (if only in wishful thought) by this IMO very good tune.
And there's also Calliope House, comp. by Dave Richardson, entirely in E Major and nowadays very generally played.
The tricky bit in E Major tunes is the G# note they have: you have to practise it a bit - it requires half-holing and / or cross-fingering. I half-hole it. This is not to say I play it often or well...
It saddens me that anyone should consider the technical difficulty of a tune as a reason to learn it. It is the complete antithesis of what this music is about.
" It saddens me that anyone should consider the technical difficulty of a tune as a reason to learn it. It is the complete antithesis of what this music is about."
Negative assumptions based on limited understandings are saddening as well.
With about 20 tunes under my belt but many more heard, I find each tune is like a person. Infintely different. I want to get to know as many as I can. But slowly and with discernment. Then I grow into it and my appreciation of the tune and its nuances increases. Then I find the tune begins to grow in me and I don't even realize all that I'm learning. I know there is much to appreciate in every tune. If I find those that are technically challenging I believe I will find enough joy in them that that joy will carry me through the technical challenges. I've been and will continue taking lessons with a well established fiddle/whistle player and some day may be able to express myself appropriately in the ITM tradition.
OK, yeah, fair play! Playing the tunes well & playing for joy.
That is grand. But you'll play the easy tunes better and, therefor, get more enjoyment out of it.
With a mere 20 tunes, there is an overwhelmingly long list of easy tunes still out there for you. Really crackingly great tunes, hundreds and hundreds of them with enough joy in every one to last a lifetime.
Soecifically looking for technically difficult tunes is, under the criteria of wanting to play them well & play them for joy, stupid
It's not like I'm not learning new tunes now ( and with increasing ease) all the time. It's so much fun, rather addictive. Although it's also fun to challenge the fingers and brain in different ways as OrganicPeatCreature put so well. Really great advice. I'm sure it won't be the last "stupid" thing I do.
There are a few great whistler's who can play in almost any key on a D whistle. If you do pick up flute someday it will most likely be open - holed (like the whistle). Having said that, almost all flute players will eventually mount keys on their instrument.
So, before you take on the task of playing in as many keys as possible (on only the D whistle) you might want to consider a few options.
For sure get a handle on the most useful accidentals. A bit of transposing is good too.
Welcome to the mustard board ~ where stupid is our middle name.
Hmm, Im certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners. I suggest technical exercises are the most effective way to improve technique, which can then be used to play technically complex tunes once the technical issues are mastered. However this idea has been roundly condemned on the session by llig and others. So how then are players to improve their technical capabilities if they are told not to practice technical exercises such as scales and arpeggios? and also not to learn tunes that are technically demanding so as to improve their technical command of their instrument? damned if you do, damned if you dont!
I agree with llig, there are loads of really truly great tunes which are not technically demanding yet offer a lifetime of enjoyment and possibilities for improvisation and personal expression. I see little merit in learning tunes that are technically above the capabilities of the player only to struggle through them ending in a half understood poorly played rendition. Easy tunes are only so superficially, to play them with spirit, rhythmically and melodic ornamentation, verve lift, drive, etc etc etc is not so easy.
Technical abilities improve as a by-product of playing. Once you have a few easy tunes, you naturally begin to learn and play ones that are a little but harder than those you already have. And it won't take long, with this natural process, before you have tunes you once thought were beyond you. And the bonus is that it happened effortlessly.
You could push the envelope if you want. If what you want is hard work and you have the time and dedication. But will it make you a better player of this music in the long run? Will it help you to get the most out of the easy tunes? Or will you end up missing out of a huge chunk of the repertoire because you consider it not worthy of your efforts? Will you be wasting your time playing technically demanding scales when you could be having fun learning new easy tunes?
Ask people who play this music. Ask every one you meet. What's better ... to have a couple of hundred easy tunes in a constant state of flux and invention? Or half a dozen hard tunes note perfect? For this is your choice if you eschew the easing of yourself into the tradition in favour of dogged determinism. But don't take my word for it. Ask others.
Dogged determinism suits some musics. In my opinion it hinders this music. But don't take my opinion. Ask around.
I agree with most of that, though I still favour technical isolation exercises as tools that have their place. IMO The only valid use for technique is to aid musical expression.
Anyhow jigs are easy... oops
Reels now... try the Gravel walk if you dont have it already.
Id be a bit wary of trying too many obscure keys on the D whistle though Im sure it can be done, IMO just get a selection of whistles. An A or E whistle would be a handy one to have, along with C.
I do have memories of whistlers trying this kind of thing as though it might have some intrinsic merit, not good memories though!
I alsoagree with lligs point about not missing out on a vast section of the repertoire because they are not ' flash' tunes. Tunes like Banish Misfortune, Smash the windows, Tripping up the stairs, simple tunes perhaps ,,but well worth learning.
For your jigs try The Gallowglass and Coleraine, they both have a few accidentals. Also Chief O'Neills favourite and the Drunken sailor , both HP with more than their fair share of accidentals.
Yes, it goes without saying that the only valid use for technique is to aid musical expression. However, whilst there is no specific need for technical ability in itself to hinder musical expression, we've all heard this happen many many times.
Thats where technical ability is mistakenly assumed to be of innate value in and of itself. Im sure there are many who would say that technical ability does have innate value, in which case to them it does, and fair enough, IMO its merely superficial material wealth, which again some people think has innate value, that somehow being richer, or technically accomplished has a value aside from what can be done with the wealth or technical ability. Of course if there are enough people who 'worship' wealth, , technical ability etc, then amongst them these things do have value. It takes all sorts to make the world.
Specifically, he says, "I'm certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners."
I'm not sure what he's saying here, it's ambiguous. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm hoping he's not saying that easy tunes are worse for more advanced players.
Certainly hope not. I can think of some technically proficient players who could stand to play more of the *easy* tunes.
Lonannas ~ is almost always ambiguous. I don't loose sleep over it though. Musicians, in general, tend to be curious. Especially with their ears. It's possible a few trad players (if not several) will admire a musician such as Chopin. He has plenty to offer the ears. That's not reason enough to start leading off a set with one of his etudes. But it may be why some latch on to exercises.
No, I train Isolation exercises because They are a standard tool . Why disregard something that is recomend world wide in numerous disciplines? For what reason would anyone want to do that? I disagree Random, I am very rarely ambiguous.If youd like to quote an example, then perhaps I might be able to see how you view it?
For example llig take a straight forward quote>> I'm certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners<<and then suggest that by saying that I might have meant something completely different. My statement is in no way ambiguous it is specific.
The only Classical training I have had was for the Guitar, I specifically took the training to Improve my right hand finger picking to be able to play my tunes better. The fact that Classical musicians favour technical exercises to help build up technique is not a good reason to therefore disregard those Isolation exercises.
I was however trained for Many years in other forms of traditional/ classical Art where technical Isolation exercises are standard fare and my fondness for these drills stems from outside the world of music. I know they work and do not in any way hinder musical developement. In fact they are of immeasurable benefit. I will continue to recomend them and am certainly not going to be dissuaded by someone who has no actual real life experience of them.
It is clear that you think you are being unambiguous. But your poor grasp of language often hides this. The quote: "I'm certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners" means both that beginners should play easy tunes and that more advanced players should not. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you meant only the former.
Get over it.
I had a real life experience of someone into martial arts once. It scared me. Music doesn't scare me.
Trouble is, with only a couple of dozen dance tunes there are some tricky bits that don't come up very often (and hundreds that don't come up at all of course) and if one is trying to learn an instrument rather than just tunes doing something that needs work using just one or two phrases can be just as tedius as an excercise.
My C# on flute was more erratic that the other notes because it doesn't not come up very often in tunes in D and then often in a context where my ear was not sure what to do with it. Playing phrases from G tunes in A gave a more definite target. But thats an excercise.
Absolutely David. What is more, this tedious repetition of a tune or tricky parts of it can have the adverse effect that you get sick of the tune and never want to play it again! Far better to work on technique as a separate entity then incorporate what you have learnt into your playing which remains fresh and exciting as a result.
As I regularly say, learning an instrument and what kind of music [and the style you choose to play it in] are different issues. Yes they can be approached at the same time by 'just scraping away' and this approach works for some, but its not the only way and not necessarily the best. I have tried both ways , I 'just scraped away' for years before I realised that my progress was poor. It was specifically working on technical issues that allowed me to build a foundation which I could use to play the music freely without being crippled by self imposed limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.
Well, as it happened the ones I knew didn't. The C# that were there were usually unstressed. I know I'm not the only begginer who has difficulty pitching the 7th note in a scale. And dropping that note is sometimes suggested (e.g. G# in A tunes)
Many tunes have lots of 'important' third notes of the the scale so phrases from G (and D) tunes in A were a good way of working on that note. And a good way of beggining to 'think flute'. But so might 'scales and arpeggios' (which until today, warming up the flute whilst reading this thread, I don't recall having played since the long discussion with that title)
Of course some instruments demand a basic grasp of Technical issues before a clear true note can be sounded, try playing a tune on the Uilleann pipes before getting to grips with Bag and Bellows!
I'm intrigued by the logic that says it's OK to get sick of playing scales, because it stops you getting sick of playing tunes.
But that by simply playing more tunes instead of scales (which are just crap tunes anyway) you are crippling yourself by imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.
That makes no logical sense at all.
Andy. Yeah, you can work on your C#s by playing tunes in A that are normally in G. But is it a waste of time if all your mates want to play the tunes in G? Up to you that one. Some tunes, Out on the Ocean for example, are often played in A anyway, so that's a good one for your C#s. But why not learn tunes that do feature C#s in the keys they are commonly played in? There's a really good and common slip jig, (never knew it's name) with the first part in F#minor and the second part in Amaj that's great for C#s.
I just tried to search for the name here, but it doesn't give the option to look for any tunes in any mode of F#. And it's not under slip jigs in Amaj
(Anyway, it's not in the least bit anywhere near the technically hardest jig on the whistle/flute, it's an easy tune. So it has no place being named on this thread anyway)
Fine llig, and by my own logic if the C#s are not that prominant in a tune there are probably more important things to be working on. And like the other things that need work I could worry about it when it became a major issue. But it may be the dodgy note that is bugging me more than dodgy other things.
I don't go along with Ionannas' logic on the gettting sick of things. But, along those lines, when playing by ear that last thing I need at the moment is one bit of a tune rising in my conciousness just because I spent more time working on it. Although that is not so bad now I am playing flute because I can't see my fingers so its easier to trust them to get on with it and pay attention to my ears instead.
<<But that by simply playing more tunes instead of scales (which are just crap tunes anyway) you are crippling yourself by imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.>>
Crap is a value judgement. Scales could be looked at as easy tunes . But the logic is to use any tool or technique that can help your personal developement, not using these tools just because they come from another genre or discipline is imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.
Lonannas, in all fairness you were not being ambiguous in the example llig gave. I have a hunch, at times, you (as well as many of us) are simply hard to pin down. Sorry not to give you a real example. I merely think it would serve a better purpose for you to review your past statements rather than me.
cheers!
I was going to make a comment that it was being a bit unfair on Ionnanas picking on something that the editor of an journal philisophy or somesuch might reasonably quibble over but that was clear in context here. But on review my post was garbled so I deleted it .
On the one hand, it's absolutely vital that points are made here in water tight logic. It's hard enough debating here without having to make assumptions about what people mean. Especially when illogical statements are backed up with the typically aggressive: "But make no mistake, I mean exactly what I say and I say exactly what I mean."
On the other hand. When a simple question is asked: Why does simply playing more tunes instead of scales mean you are crippling yourself by imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating?
You get the reply: "Scales could be looked at as easy tunes . But the logic is to use any tool or technique that can help your personal development."
This is bad enough. But it's followed by the crazy assumption that has completely no basis in any normal argument of cause and effect: "... not using these tools just because they come from another genre or discipline is imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating."
It's just like ... what .... duh .... come again? Come on now, it doesn't take a philosophy journal to unwind the nonsense.
However. Benefit of the doubt and all that ...
No Ionannas. I don't eschew scales because they come from another genre or discipline. I eschew scales 'cause they are crap tunes.
Ah yes, I'm familiar with that one. But I suppose it is boring if you don't understand it:
i) Person A has position X:
ii) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents position Y:
iii) Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed:
But it actually went like this ...
i) Person A has position X:
"Why should I play scales when I can play tunes instead, since scales are merely poor tunes."
ii) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents position Y:
""The logic is to use any tool or technique that can help your personal development."
iii) Person B keeps digging, even adding stuff of zero relevance:
"Not using these tools just because they come from another genre or discipline is imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating."
Yeah Random ... we going clockwise or anticlockwise?
Person A should demonstrate that "scales are merely poor tunes" before stating his position with such brevity. Yeah I know, its another thread.
Person C took Helmholtz as his holiday reading and it rained a lot; he is currently accustomed to the highest standards of exposition. But not brevity.
technically hardest jig on the whistle
technically hardest jig on the whistle
I was just wondering from you whistle players what was/is the most technically challenging jig you've learned and why.
Thanks, janmarie
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by janmarie
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
for me it was the 'Monaghan Jig'...it goes all over the place in part 2 and especially part 4!
for some reason (probably 'cos I'm crap) I keep stumbling on Aaron's Key as well, although as such, that's not really tricky...it's just me I guess
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by andy69
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
A strong contender is Bill Charlton's Fancy, a Northumbrian smallpipes tune composed by Billy Pigg. It has three parts in 6/8 with a fourth and final one in fast 4/4 reel time.
It's in the Tunes base - though the 4/4 bit isn't included in the dots - and can be heard, played by Billy Pigg, via the FARNE link mentioned some way down the comments.
I got through it once (more or less) note-perfect on tin whistle in a folk club in early 1982. Indolence and timidity have restrained me from playing it since.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by nicholas
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
For me, the hardest I've played is the third part of Humours of Ennistymon.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I imagine Bill Charlton's fancy would be a strong contender - it's probably no mean feat even on the instrument it was composed for - but I've never got past learning the first part, so I have no empirical evidence.
"I got through it once (more or less) note-perfect on tin whistle in a folk club in early 1982"
Fair play to you, Nicholas. I don't think I could have got beyond the first two bars of Three Blind Mice on the whistle in 1982.
nuwhistler - If you're specifically looking for a technical challenge, you could try tunes in difficult keys, or just take tunes you already know and transpose them into different keys (without changing whistle!). Transposing from G to D (and vice-versa) is relatively straightforward, but keys such as A, C, E, F, F# minor, G minor, D minor etc. require either half-holes or cross-fingering or both, and can be quite challenging, even on simple tunes. I once heard someone play Splendid Isolation (G dorian)
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/200
The Graf Spee (C)
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/581
and Kathleen's Fiddle (F)
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2999
immaculately on a D whistle.
These may not be the most difficult tunes to play in these keys (perhaps this is why the said whistle player chose them). But a relatively easy tune transposed into an unusual key - say, The Maid Behind the bar in F or The Gravel Walks in G dorian - can be quite a challenge for the fingers and brain.
There are also a lot of fiddle tunes in A (e.g. The Mason's Apron, The Contradiction, Peter Street) which, when transposed into a more whistle friendly key (such as G) are a breeze, but can be a real workout if left in their original key.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
...I just realised, Janmarie, you were asking about jigs and every tune I have mentioned above is a reel
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I agree with andy69.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by Whiddler
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Try the 'Mooncoin Jig' perhaps, in A it's played and lots of finger work. Series of octave jumps in last part are hard to play cleanly - I've heard Mary Bergin do a great job on it though on one of those Gradam Ceoil
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I found the Mooncoin a bear to tackle when i took up whistle.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/index/search?name=mooncoin&type_id=&mode_id=
Naturally, some find it very easy.
Grrr!
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by Piece
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
A coulple of years after I started playing, I fell in love with a jig off the Bumblebees first album, the tune was called Across the Divide, it's in A and makes fairly liberal use of the accidentals. It took a long time (like years until my technical skills got better), to get the b part going well. The thing is, some of these great jigs are meant for fiddle, but they sound so sweet on the whistle, just take alot of work!
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by lawhistle
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Balls To Hall is a rousing jig that is in E Minor in part 1 and goes into E Major in part 2. It was composed by the late Joe Scurfield, who lived for a long time in Newcastle upon Tyne. Sir John Hall is / was a prominent personage of that area: what he did to incur Joe's wrath I don't know - anyway, both have been immortalised (if only in wishful thought) by this IMO very good tune.
And there's also Calliope House, comp. by Dave Richardson, entirely in E Major and nowadays very generally played.
The tricky bit in E Major tunes is the G# note they have: you have to practise it a bit - it requires half-holing and / or cross-fingering. I half-hole it. This is not to say I play it often or well...
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by nicholas
I think the referance to Sir John is a football referance
because of his involvement in Newcastle united.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
*Anyone*'s involvement with Newcastle United seems to have been a two-way kiss of death for some time...
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by nicholas
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
As well as Bill Charltons, the Random Jig, again from the Northumbrian tradition leaps about a little.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll start working on those tunes...for the next few years. janmarie
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by janmarie
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
It saddens me that anyone should consider the technical difficulty of a tune as a reason to learn it. It is the complete antithesis of what this music is about.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
ditto
one difficulty of the whistle (aside from accidentals) is getting a nice sound on the highest notes.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
" It saddens me that anyone should consider the technical difficulty of a tune as a reason to learn it. It is the complete antithesis of what this music is about."
Negative assumptions based on limited understandings are saddening as well.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by janmarie
please enlighten. ;)
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
With about 20 tunes under my belt but many more heard, I find each tune is like a person. Infintely different. I want to get to know as many as I can. But slowly and with discernment. Then I grow into it and my appreciation of the tune and its nuances increases. Then I find the tune begins to grow in me and I don't even realize all that I'm learning. I know there is much to appreciate in every tune. If I find those that are technically challenging I believe I will find enough joy in them that that joy will carry me through the technical challenges. I've been and will continue taking lessons with a well established fiddle/whistle player and some day may be able to express myself appropriately in the ITM tradition.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by janmarie
~
Fair play! Playing the tunes well & playing for joy.
That's grand.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
OK, yeah, fair play! Playing the tunes well & playing for joy.
That is grand. But you'll play the easy tunes better and, therefor, get more enjoyment out of it.
With a mere 20 tunes, there is an overwhelmingly long list of easy tunes still out there for you. Really crackingly great tunes, hundreds and hundreds of them with enough joy in every one to last a lifetime.
Soecifically looking for technically difficult tunes is, under the criteria of wanting to play them well & play them for joy, stupid
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
It's not like I'm not learning new tunes now ( and with increasing ease) all the time. It's so much fun, rather addictive. Although it's also fun to challenge the fingers and brain in different ways as OrganicPeatCreature put so well. Really great advice. I'm sure it won't be the last "stupid" thing I do.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by janmarie
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
There are a few great whistler's who can play in almost any key on a D whistle. If you do pick up flute someday it will most likely be open - holed (like the whistle). Having said that, almost all flute players will eventually mount keys on their instrument.
So, before you take on the task of playing in as many keys as possible (on only the D whistle) you might want to consider a few options.
For sure get a handle on the most useful accidentals. A bit of transposing is good too.
Welcome to the mustard board ~ where stupid is our middle name.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Hmm, Im certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners. I suggest technical exercises are the most effective way to improve technique, which can then be used to play technically complex tunes once the technical issues are mastered. However this idea has been roundly condemned on the session by llig and others. So how then are players to improve their technical capabilities if they are told not to practice technical exercises such as scales and arpeggios? and also not to learn tunes that are technically demanding so as to improve their technical command of their instrument? damned if you do, damned if you dont!
I agree with llig, there are loads of really truly great tunes which are not technically demanding yet offer a lifetime of enjoyment and possibilities for improvisation and personal expression. I see little merit in learning tunes that are technically above the capabilities of the player only to struggle through them ending in a half understood poorly played rendition. Easy tunes are only so superficially, to play them with spirit, rhythmically and melodic ornamentation, verve lift, drive, etc etc etc is not so easy.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Lonannas
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Technical abilities improve as a by-product of playing. Once you have a few easy tunes, you naturally begin to learn and play ones that are a little but harder than those you already have. And it won't take long, with this natural process, before you have tunes you once thought were beyond you. And the bonus is that it happened effortlessly.
You could push the envelope if you want. If what you want is hard work and you have the time and dedication. But will it make you a better player of this music in the long run? Will it help you to get the most out of the easy tunes? Or will you end up missing out of a huge chunk of the repertoire because you consider it not worthy of your efforts? Will you be wasting your time playing technically demanding scales when you could be having fun learning new easy tunes?
Ask people who play this music. Ask every one you meet. What's better ... to have a couple of hundred easy tunes in a constant state of flux and invention? Or half a dozen hard tunes note perfect? For this is your choice if you eschew the easing of yourself into the tradition in favour of dogged determinism. But don't take my word for it. Ask others.
Dogged determinism suits some musics. In my opinion it hinders this music. But don't take my opinion. Ask around.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I agree with most of that, though I still favour technical isolation exercises as tools that have their place. IMO The only valid use for technique is to aid musical expression.
Anyhow jigs are easy... oops
Reels now... try the Gravel walk if you dont have it already.
Id be a bit wary of trying too many obscure keys on the D whistle though Im sure it can be done, IMO just get a selection of whistles. An A or E whistle would be a handy one to have, along with C.
I do have memories of whistlers trying this kind of thing as though it might have some intrinsic merit, not good memories though!
I alsoagree with lligs point about not missing out on a vast section of the repertoire because they are not ' flash' tunes. Tunes like Banish Misfortune, Smash the windows, Tripping up the stairs, simple tunes perhaps ,,but well worth learning.
For your jigs try The Gallowglass and Coleraine, they both have a few accidentals. Also Chief O'Neills favourite and the Drunken sailor , both HP with more than their fair share of accidentals.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Nice & Easy
Llig Leahcim, I feel as if I have waited a lifetime to read everything you wrote in your last post. Truth is, I was just impatient.
Cheers!
;)
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Yes, it goes without saying that the only valid use for technique is to aid musical expression. However, whilst there is no specific need for technical ability in itself to hinder musical expression, we've all heard this happen many many times.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Thats where technical ability is mistakenly assumed to be of innate value in and of itself. Im sure there are many who would say that technical ability does have innate value, in which case to them it does, and fair enough, IMO its merely superficial material wealth, which again some people think has innate value, that somehow being richer, or technically accomplished has a value aside from what can be done with the wealth or technical ability. Of course if there are enough people who 'worship' wealth, , technical ability etc, then amongst them these things do have value. It takes all sorts to make the world.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
wow ~ the 2 of you agree
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
nope, he still favours technical isolation exercises.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Specifically, he says, "I'm certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners."
I'm not sure what he's saying here, it's ambiguous. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm hoping he's not saying that easy tunes are worse for more advanced players.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Certainly hope not. I can think of some technically proficient players who could stand to play more of the *easy* tunes.
Lonannas ~ is almost always ambiguous. I don't loose sleep over it though. Musicians, in general, tend to be curious. Especially with their ears. It's possible a few trad players (if not several) will admire a musician such as Chopin. He has plenty to offer the ears. That's not reason enough to start leading off a set with one of his etudes. But it may be why some latch on to exercises.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
No, I train Isolation exercises because They are a standard tool . Why disregard something that is recomend world wide in numerous disciplines? For what reason would anyone want to do that? I disagree Random, I am very rarely ambiguous.If youd like to quote an example, then perhaps I might be able to see how you view it?
For example llig take a straight forward quote>> I'm certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners<<and then suggest that by saying that I might have meant something completely different. My statement is in no way ambiguous it is specific.
The only Classical training I have had was for the Guitar, I specifically took the training to Improve my right hand finger picking to be able to play my tunes better. The fact that Classical musicians favour technical exercises to help build up technique is not a good reason to therefore disregard those Isolation exercises.
I was however trained for Many years in other forms of traditional/ classical Art where technical Isolation exercises are standard fare and my fondness for these drills stems from outside the world of music. I know they work and do not in any way hinder musical developement. In fact they are of immeasurable benefit. I will continue to recomend them and am certainly not going to be dissuaded by someone who has no actual real life experience of them.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
It is clear that you think you are being unambiguous. But your poor grasp of language often hides this. The quote: "I'm certainly of a mind that easy tunes are by their nature better for beginners" means both that beginners should play easy tunes and that more advanced players should not. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you meant only the former.
Get over it.
I had a real life experience of someone into martial arts once. It scared me. Music doesn't scare me.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
No llig, you are wrong, The quote means exactly what it says.
If you choose to read into that and extrapolate that is your choice. But make no mistake, I mean exactly what I say and I say exactly what I mean.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
duh, you and your language eh
No need to get worked up about it. I said I asumed you meant only one meaning of the phrase. I gave you the bennefit of the doubt. Get over it.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Trouble is, with only a couple of dozen dance tunes there are some tricky bits that don't come up very often (and hundreds that don't come up at all of course) and if one is trying to learn an instrument rather than just tunes doing something that needs work using just one or two phrases can be just as tedius as an excercise.
My C# on flute was more erratic that the other notes because it doesn't not come up very often in tunes in D and then often in a context where my ear was not sure what to do with it. Playing phrases from G tunes in A gave a more definite target. But thats an excercise.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by David50
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Not sure what you're getting at there David, the majority of the tunes I know in D have plenty of C#s in them
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Absolutely David. What is more, this tedious repetition of a tune or tricky parts of it can have the adverse effect that you get sick of the tune and never want to play it again! Far better to work on technique as a separate entity then incorporate what you have learnt into your playing which remains fresh and exciting as a result.
As I regularly say, learning an instrument and what kind of music [and the style you choose to play it in] are different issues. Yes they can be approached at the same time by 'just scraping away' and this approach works for some, but its not the only way and not necessarily the best. I have tried both ways , I 'just scraped away' for years before I realised that my progress was poor. It was specifically working on technical issues that allowed me to build a foundation which I could use to play the music freely without being crippled by self imposed limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Well, as it happened the ones I knew didn't. The C# that were there were usually unstressed. I know I'm not the only begginer who has difficulty pitching the 7th note in a scale. And dropping that note is sometimes suggested (e.g. G# in A tunes)
Many tunes have lots of 'important' third notes of the the scale so phrases from G (and D) tunes in A were a good way of working on that note. And a good way of beggining to 'think flute'. But so might 'scales and arpeggios' (which until today, warming up the flute whilst reading this thread, I don't recall having played since the long discussion with that title)
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by David50
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Of course some instruments demand a basic grasp of Technical issues before a clear true note can be sounded, try playing a tune on the Uilleann pipes before getting to grips with Bag and Bellows!
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I'm intrigued by the logic that says it's OK to get sick of playing scales, because it stops you getting sick of playing tunes.
But that by simply playing more tunes instead of scales (which are just crap tunes anyway) you are crippling yourself by imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.
That makes no logical sense at all.
Andy. Yeah, you can work on your C#s by playing tunes in A that are normally in G. But is it a waste of time if all your mates want to play the tunes in G? Up to you that one. Some tunes, Out on the Ocean for example, are often played in A anyway, so that's a good one for your C#s. But why not learn tunes that do feature C#s in the keys they are commonly played in? There's a really good and common slip jig, (never knew it's name) with the first part in F#minor and the second part in Amaj that's great for C#s.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2410
or
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5178
??
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by domnull
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I just tried to search for the name here, but it doesn't give the option to look for any tunes in any mode of F#. And it's not under slip jigs in Amaj
(Anyway, it's not in the least bit anywhere near the technically hardest jig on the whistle/flute, it's an easy tune. So it has no place being named on this thread anyway)
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Sorry Domnull, it's neither of those. (though I quite like the first one)
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Fine llig, and by my own logic if the C#s are not that prominant in a tune there are probably more important things to be working on. And like the other things that need work I could worry about it when it became a major issue. But it may be the dodgy note that is bugging me more than dodgy other things.
I don't go along with Ionannas' logic on the gettting sick of things. But, along those lines, when playing by ear that last thing I need at the moment is one bit of a tune rising in my conciousness just because I spent more time working on it. Although that is not so bad now I am playing flute because I can't see my fingers so its easier to trust them to get on with it and pay attention to my ears instead.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by David50
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
My abc is not great, but I think the tune I'm thinking of starts something like this:
F3 FEF c3|F3 FEF AFE|F3 FEF c2d|ecA ABc BcA|
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
With the Fs and Cs as sharps, of course
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
<<But that by simply playing more tunes instead of scales (which are just crap tunes anyway) you are crippling yourself by imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.>>
Crap is a value judgement. Scales could be looked at as easy tunes . But the logic is to use any tool or technique that can help your personal developement, not using these tools just because they come from another genre or discipline is imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/93
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Lonannas, in all fairness you were not being ambiguous in the example llig gave. I have a hunch, at times, you (as well as many of us) are simply hard to pin down. Sorry not to give you a real example. I merely think it would serve a better purpose for you to review your past statements rather than me.
cheers!
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I was going to make a comment that it was being a bit unfair on Ionnanas picking on something that the editor of an journal philisophy or somesuch might reasonably quibble over but that was clear in context here. But on review my post was garbled so I deleted it .
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by David50
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
I knew it ! ... a journal of philosophy... arggh
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by David50
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
On the one hand, it's absolutely vital that points are made here in water tight logic. It's hard enough debating here without having to make assumptions about what people mean. Especially when illogical statements are backed up with the typically aggressive: "But make no mistake, I mean exactly what I say and I say exactly what I mean."
On the other hand. When a simple question is asked: Why does simply playing more tunes instead of scales mean you are crippling yourself by imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating?
You get the reply: "Scales could be looked at as easy tunes . But the logic is to use any tool or technique that can help your personal development."
This is bad enough. But it's followed by the crazy assumption that has completely no basis in any normal argument of cause and effect: "... not using these tools just because they come from another genre or discipline is imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating."
It's just like ... what .... duh .... come again? Come on now, it doesn't take a philosophy journal to unwind the nonsense.
However. Benefit of the doubt and all that ...
No Ionannas. I don't eschew scales because they come from another genre or discipline. I eschew scales 'cause they are crap tunes.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
take another toke dude
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Straw man llig.. boring..
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Ah yes, I'm familiar with that one. But I suppose it is boring if you don't understand it:
i) Person A has position X:
ii) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents position Y:
iii) Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed:
But it actually went like this ...
i) Person A has position X:
"Why should I play scales when I can play tunes instead, since scales are merely poor tunes."
ii) Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents position Y:
""The logic is to use any tool or technique that can help your personal development."
iii) Person B keeps digging, even adding stuff of zero relevance:
"Not using these tools just because they come from another genre or discipline is imposing limitations which are both unnecessary and self defeating."
Yeah Random ... we going clockwise or anticlockwise?
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Person A should demonstrate that "scales are merely poor tunes" before stating his position with such brevity. Yeah I know, its another thread.
Person C took Helmholtz as his holiday reading and it rained a lot; he is currently accustomed to the highest standards of exposition. But not brevity.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by David50
Technicalities
You asking me? Doesn't matter, take your time.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Most notes in one breath
If you play a scale once through & then improvise every other time is it still a crap tune? or just on the 1st A part . . .
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
Quite right Random, quite right.
And there's always room for levity in brevity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NIlQXyuw-I
(the very last frame made me chuckle ... just made me think of jig and me)
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: technically hardest jig on the whistle
more than I ever imagined to think about....with much gratitude
janmarie
# Posted on September 19th 2009 by janmarie