To those of you who feel you don't need to know the tune--i.e., drum beaters and guitar strummers--please remember that players who do need to know the tune will occasionally (or mostly, for beginners) not play. This changes the dynamics of the overall sound, and provides variety.
So please be kind, and sit one out sometimes. Don't play all the way through every single tune. OK? Thanks.
(I know we have been over all this, many times--but the message still needs to be broadcast, I think.)
If it's well crafted, like a good violin, it should hold together with a minimum of glue. Or, in some instances, the pieces are designed to interlock really well, so no glue is needed at all.
How can a strummer who is playing away on a tune he/she doesn't know be the glue that holds anything together? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious about how that's possible.
I've witnessed strummers who can jump on the wagon really quick and sort out the tonal landscape of tunes they never heard before--they are rare. I have also witnessed strummers who provide tonal landscapes that contradict the tune and don't support them even if they know them well. And of course I've witnessed just about everything in between. Strummers exist in a realm without definition sometimes; they can be both right and wrong at the same time depending on who's listening. With this in mind I think strummers have a difficult task when playing in sessions; they need to read the almost un-perceivable clues from people who are usually politely silent. If they don't want to become the bane of the session they have to attempt to sort out how the melody players are either enjoying or being annoyed by what they're contributing.
Players who are well-known and accepted in particular sessions, or just well-known for being excellent, have the easiest task. Newcomers and novices have an uphill struggle to sort out how their playing is being received. The only advice I can offer is to proceed with extreme caution.
Sometimes the chord &/or rhythm choices of a guitar player can dominate the melody. There are some grand Irish melodies & subtle rhythms which are easily buried.
Please don't.
OK Torrest, let's get this straight, if you don't know the tune don't play it.
Why does this only apply to thumpers and strummers?
Why not scrapers and blowers?
Are you perpetuating the myth that melody players are a privileged class?
Torrest is confusing.
You go to a session. someone starts a tune you don't know, it has an uncommon gait and a few other queer bits. How do you learn it?
Wait til you get home and see if any of it is still in the brainbox with all the other session detritus? not likely
Noodling or playing the bits you do know quietly hoping it will dawn on you any moment now? Seems intelligent.
OR.......... download sheetmusic and read the dots.
Or just say stuff it
Yes, non-stop noodling is just as bad. Because, like non-stop strumming and drumming, it's not the same thing as playing the tune.
I'm only just learning about Irish tunes, myself--but highly respected players say it's all about the tunes. Everything that makes Irish tunes special is right there, in the melody.
And I have been known to record tunes at a session, so I can learn them at home. (I know at least one guitar player who also does that, and I respect him for it.)
Or I go home and look up the dots, just to be better prepared to learn that session's version next time it turns up.
After all these years of playing I'm still perplexed as to why anyone would try and play along with a tune they are'nt familiar with. Occasionally someone will say to me "Oh just fake it". I prefer to shut up and listen, and hopefully learn something new.But it not only applies to guitarists( my instrument), or non melody instruments. I regularly see a fiddler who plays along with everything played at the session, and a D melodeon player do the same, even in "F" tunes! (Johnny Connolly would be astonished at this feat of musical mastery!). If you have'nt learnt the tune listen, or better still record the tune, take it home, and study it(ask first about recording musos, but I've never had a problem with it).
There are a surprising amount of otherwise reasonable people who claim to be able to pick up tunes on the fly, but they usually just seem to be wearing the Emperor's new clothes when you witness them actually "doing" it.
"There are a surprising amount of otherwise reasonable people who claim to be able to pick up tunes on the fly, but they usually just seem to be wearing the Emperor's new clothes when you witness them actually "doing" it."
3 things: most tunes stand up without accompaniment. Accompaniment is not rocket science there are only a limited number of places a trad tune can go in any given scale or mode of the scale and rhythm is defined by the melody. Ears: there the sticky out bits on the side of your head, they come in handy for listening; > )
In my opinion a session is about craic and trying/learning tunes you wouldn't otherwise come across. Just keep it down until you have it. If the standard is too high find another session.
The only way an accompanist can develop an on the fly approach, which is the only approach IMO (and if you haven't heard one do it well then you need to get out more), is to get stuck in finding out what works and what doesn't in a particular situation. It's easy to be precious about your music but there's always someone better, thats worth remembering, a little humility goes a long way when dealing with someone thats trying but not quite there. You've got to make an arse of it to get it right, trial and error, likes.......
Sometimes the tune noodling impairs the craic; the fun isn't just about noodling on tunes you don't know. Sometimes being considerate of others is fun too.
Sure Mr Button, but if there's a rip roaring tune in full swing whats a little noodling? Being considerate is part of it too. I'm not suggesting otherwise.
If I'm playing accompaniment for someone and we near the end of a tune and they turn to me and say "Arse" or "Feck", I'm not going to stop and say "sorry mate I don't know what your about to play". I just do my best, thats not noodling, thats most accompaniment situations in sessions or as part of a scratch bands. You may or may not know the tune is my point and you are therefore now playing on the fly. Structure wise there's normally not a lot to worry about once you have a little experiences. Most melody players are aware of the fragility of the situation, so they want leap into a gypsy jazz routine and expect you to morph into Django, it's kept in context. Sure I'm familiar with a few tunes and have a few myself, my point is at an open session you may not pay your money, but you take your chance....
>There are a surprising amount of otherwise reasonable >people who claim to be able to pick up tunes on the fly, but >they usually just seem to be wearing the Emperor's new >clothes when you witness them actually "doing" it.
Sorry phantom, but I think you'll find there is actually no fly in the Emperors new suit.
It's straight forward really. It's impossible to play a tune you don't know. Impossible.
However, depending on the tune, it is possible to pick them up remarkably quickly. Especially if you are not just being some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. And especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. Or near some feckin strummer flailing around trying to get the chords by trial and error. And most especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit merely thumping a feckin drum and masking out any semblance of tune.
"It's straight forward really. It's impossible to play a tune you don't know. Impossible."
For melody llig I concur, although there are one or two players who are not far off, for strumming, provided it's straight forward it's a different ball game altogether.
If you can successfully and correctly strum chords to a tune you've never heard before, that tune must be so similar to so many other tunes as to be pretty much pointless.
However, that's not what good strummers do. They get the key almost instantaneously, mostly drone for the first time through each part, have the changes ready for the second time through each part, and have it nailed for the next time through. It's not difficult, if you know the music in general and the tune is pretty predictable (which most are).
It's the same way you pic a tune on the fly. If it's a predictable tune, you can learn it in 2 times through easy.
But who wants to learn tunes so predictable that you feel you might as well already know them already? It's pointless and boring. You might as well be playing the feckin bodhran. "Oh, this is a reel, I can play reel" ... and off you go. Pointless, boring and feckin annoying.
So, let's get this straight Gillig, There is a tune out there that I don't know. According to you if I don't know it I never will. Impossible you say. Give us a break you poor old geezer, were you born with all the tunes in your head???? No F ing wonder it's so big.
mcknowall, that's not what he said. Why is it that you deliberately misconstrue things people say? Is it because you know it will cause a disagreement, and you're looking for that? Or are you just so dense that you actually can't understand what people are saying?
Noodles! Noodles again! Well, if we're doing strummers and whackers again...
Isn't noodling playing something that is not the tune? By basic logic, that would verboten, yes?
So regardless of whacking, strumming, scraping, plinking or tooting, if you don't know the tune...
Ah well, be it melody noodles or rampaging backers, it all comes down to the whole "I must participate!!!" thing some folks have when they come to session with an instrument, regardless of whether they know the particular piece of music currently being played.
A shame that the fine art of simply listening and enjoying the music you don't know isn't more appreciated.
Not that I'm any saint. I'll go run off for a smoke myself sometimes on those.
I should clarify something, I think. There are guitarists who are very good at improvising accompaniment for Irish tunes--because they are familiar with lots of Irish tunes, have a good ear, and play tastefully. A guitarist like that is a real asset to a session.
Similarly, someone who adds a bit of skilled drumming--here and there--during a session is also an asset.
But there are others... well, leave off the "et" part.
I'm talking about the twangers and bangers who don't know any tunes, and see no reason not to make constant noise on every single tune all night long.
"There are guitarists who are very good at improvising accompaniment for Irish tunes--because they are familiar with lots of Irish tunes, have a good ear, and play tastefully".
And often there's no need to drone, lol.. Seriously though above, now thats a very good mission statement for any accompaniment of any style, IMO, that is.
no doubt with printed out transcripts and arguments from previous conversations on the web. We could even rent out a special room just for arguing..The Whiskey Room!! and we could all wear nametags.. Ive already been outed by several people where I live. My identity as Trucks Mulligan is as subtle as Llig
"Ah well, be it melody noodles or rampaging backers, it all comes down to the whole "I must participate!!!" thing some folks have when they come to session with an instrument, regardless of whether they know the particular piece of music currently being played."
This is the most accurate explanation of what drives noodlers and backers to unwittingly annoy their fellow sessioneers. I've been going to the same session for 20 years now and in that time this debate has been a topic both around the table and outside of the pub. I remember one fellow (a good friend) whose behavior was interesting to observe after this series of this debates commenced. He was in all earnest attempting to comply with the concept that noodling on tunes you don't know isn't the best way to contribute, but his knee-jerk compulsion would launch his fiddle to his neck and aim his bow at his strings regardless. As soon as he realized his compulsion had kicked in he would return the fiddle to his lap, and then he would have tiny convulsions trying to squelch the auto-response. When we made eye contact during his personal struggle we would both chuckle.
I had to fight this compulsion at first too... but I soon found it a lot easier to learn a tune I didn't know by listening closely rather than confusing things with errant notes. But I do understand this compulsion and I suppose it can be akin to quitting smoking for some people. I do envy the few I have witnessed who do seem to have the ability to pick up tunes on the fly so gracefully, but I'm not about to pretend I can do it at the expense of my fellow sessioneers.
It seems to me that most of the traffic on this board can be divided into two camps.
1 The ferocious elitists who believe that Irish music is carved in stone tablets that only they can see and that tradition is a date sometime in the past that only they know. These people experience extreme discomfort if someone enters the room and is too friendly or not friendly enough or plays along in the background or has fun or has an instrument which is the wrong colour or length etc.
2 The less neurotic type of person with sufficient vision to realise that traditional music started back in the caveman days and has been incrementally evolving to this day.
One group is exclusive, one is inclusive.
Listening to the sessions of the first group,(which I usually do because they are not much fun to play with) is a bit like listening to the same CD all the time, listening and playing with the second group is to experience all the joy of the musical cornucopia available at a good session.
The session bar at Australia's National Folk Festival is my case in point. There are a few exclusive little groups huddled in stairwells and short hallways (so there's no room for interlopers!) and hundreds of others playing all sorts of music with varying degrees of competency wearing broad smiles.
Lots of DADGADers, scores of bodhrans didgeridoos, mouthbows noseflutes etc and wall to wall fellowship.
Lighten up kids, it's only music!
The thing I find funny in Knowitall's post is that he breaks the vast oceans of opinion in here into just 2 groups:
a) "The ferocious elitists who believe that Irish music is carved in stone tablets that only they can see and that tradition is a date sometime in the past that only they know."
and b) "hundreds of others playing all sorts of music with varying degrees of competency wearing broad smiles."
He want's to be all-inclusive, but he has excluded most of the people who participate in this website by just presenting the extremes. He also seems to divide it between people who prefer his kind of session and all the rest. The conclusion seems to be you're either wonderful and like him or you're "ferocious elitists who believe that Irish music is carved in stone tablets that only they can see and that tradition is a date sometime in the past that only they know." hahahaha geeez
I know, I know, it hurts to be an optional accessory. I used to play electric violin in rock bands. For a rock band, bass/drums/guitar are essential. An electric violin is strictly optional.
For Irish tunes, a melody player is essential. Accompaniment is optional. That's not dogma, it's a simple fact.
I'm starting to get the feeling that this music has survived despite the people that play it, not thanks to them.
Just trying to work out how I agree with Llig, PB and McK all at once, but I do.
I know exactly the sessionistas you're referring to, McK. Criseknows theres enough of 'em around. And they're a pain in the a*se to session with, and not much better to listen to.
But I've also been stuck next to kn*bheads with tippers in their hands, or f*ckwits who bash out completely and utterly wrong chords continually whilst totally oblivious to the fact they're destroying any semblance of musicality.
There's plenty of truth on both sides.
Eno
P.S. Fedorastain, was that the right link? Didn't make much sense to me....
Thanks for assisting Torrest, but my inquisitive nature is not quite sated just yet.
I am a bit rusty with computerish, but there is a navigation bar thingy at the top RH of the page which steers us to "tunes" (which I use all the time especially for the corny little castrated sound files) and then there is another page which you have obviously learnt how to land on called "discussions".
THIS is the discussion page.
The tune page is "all about tunes", the discussion page is where people express opinions.
Now, there are melody players who are arhythmic and strummers who don't understand the finer points of a melody.
We do not take these people out the back and shoot them, we embrace and nurture them.
Or at least I do anyway, I detest bullies of any stripe.
May all your chooks turn into emus and kick your sh*thouse to bits.
I play tunes too .
I was merely addressing your ridiculous snobbery, and that of your equally elitist cohorts on this site.
Irish traditional music is NOT your personal franchise, there are NO RULES and people should not quake in fear when in your presence.
The same goes for your chooks gillfish.
I'd like to redirect this discussion back to a very interesting point made earlier on. PB wrote:
"Strummers exist in a realm without definition sometimes; they can be both right and wrong at the same time depending on who's listening."
This is it. Finally someone has distilled it down to one sentence. Thank you PB.
Now my own experience as it relates to this comment.
I come from an ensemble background - I played with groups all along - rock and bluegrass for example. Chords and accompaniment have always been a part of my soundscape.
When I play Irish music, I thrive with tasteful chordal and harmonic accompaniment, whether I am attempting it, or whether another player is providing this. For me, the music needs this.
On the other hand, there are the tune-in-unison people. They prefer to play primarily single note melodies on their instruments, and they mainly enjoy unison playing since that's the main way they learned the music. In some cases it's the only type of music they actually enjoy to play. They tend to enjoy the music best only when it's played in unison with others, with minimal chordal or harmonic accompaniment.
Once I met a guitar player, who is probably the best guitarist I've ever meet and enjoyed tunes with, who made me understand the difference of the types of players I have mentioned above. This player, who is also a consummate tunes player on the violin and other instruments, loved chordal accompaniment as much as I do. After some conversation I realized that the main reason we connected so well was that we were both in the chordal accompaniment category of musician. While we both care about the melodies, we both need the chords to fully flesh out the music.
On the other hand, I know individuals who just can't stand chordal accompaniment unless it's nearly inaudible.
So, to return to the point of the quote, the reaction to strumming is usually dependent upon the musical personality and background of the listener.
Wot he said!
Fresh vital thinking, you won't last long with these dodderers halfwaythere
WoooHooo
Diddly i di di
Diddly o do do
diddly iddly idy ody di di do
So you are playing a set of tunes in a session and the tunes go from one in G to a tune in D. The strummer continues thru the second one playing in G. What do you do, McKnowAll? What are you thinking as the tune progresses? At the end of the set, you may mention to this guitar player that the second tune is in D. He tells you there are no right or wrong chords. Now what?
Excellent, a session.org class stoush between mcknowall and llig; this has the potential to be a lot of fun. It's been over a week now since a decent punch-up here.
"You go to a session. someone starts a tune you don't know, it has an uncommon gait and a few other queer bits. How do you learn it?
Wait til you get home and see if any of it is still in the brainbox with all the other session detritus? not likely
Noodling or playing the bits you do know quietly hoping it will dawn on you any moment now? Seems intelligent.
OR.......... download sheetmusic and read the dots.
Or just say stuff it"
There IS another way:
- First time you hear the tune, sit back and listen
- Next time you hear the tune, sit back and listen
- Next time you hear the tune, listen and try playing silently following with your fingers
- Next time you hear the tune, try playing along quietly, noticing any awkward spots
- Next time you hear the tune, play along.
The actual number of 'next times' will depends on how fast a learner you are, how much you work on it in between, whether you have recordings of it to listen to, whether you have sheet music to look at (yes - everything in moderation) etc. A few people will be able to hear the tune through once and have it note-perfect by the second time round. Many more will be able to listen through at one session and be playing it 80-90% right (anything from 0-50% right might be called 'noodling') by the next session. Less experienced players would probably need to be exposed to the tune a few more times and perhaps spend a bit of time working on it privately. But the point is, you learn the most by listening - if you've only got half the tune, you're better off listening than playing along.
It's not just that this web site is about tunes--although that is its stated purpose, on the home page--it's that Irish traditional music is about the tunes. Consider these situations:
1. I'm visiting a session that has some good players. I know some of their tunes, but their settings are slightly different, so I'm listening closely for the different notes--or trying to. It's difficult, because there's an experimental strummer sitting next to me, playing random chords all the way through every tune. The extra work of filtering out all those wrong notes is preventing me from learning more about the tunes.
2. I'm currently learning a certain Paddy Fahy reel, trying to get all the quirky accidentals just right. Another player is working on it too, and starts it up at the session. But again, I can't hear all the notes because of a drummer sat next to me who plays all the way through every single tune.
I would not go to a drum circle and expect the drummers to follow my lead, or go to a song circle (with lots of strummers) and expect to play/noodle the melodies of all the songs all night long. I'm just looking for the same consideration at Irish sessions, which are about the tunes.
"However, depending on the tune, it is possible to pick them up remarkably quickly. Especially if you are not just being some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. And especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. Or near some feckin strummer flailing around trying to get the chords by trial and error. And most especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit merely thumping a feckin drum and masking out any semblance of tune.
And especially if said eedjits never ever stop, because why should they, they don't need to actually know the tune after all, so why not just keep going. Never-ending, constant, unremitting, nonstop, unrelenting....
But back to the grind:
I'm offended by the "no rules" idiocy.
While I think that one of the greatest strengths of this music is the fluidity of what defines what "tune" is, the one rule that is absolutly tantamount to the definiton of the music is that The Tune Is King.
Sorry fans,
Been away playing tunes all afternoon,
On my bodhran mainly, it is certainly re-assuring to see that on the other hand nothing much has changed here.
Snarky malarkey, that's all it is!
Snarkey malarkey.
And not only that, but they can't spell f u c k i n g
Must tend the barbie now, snags and beer are calling.
Gee, there's a tune in that
Snags and beer are calling, snags and beer are calling, s n a g s a n d b e e r a r e c a l l i n g
I can provide moderately appropriate accompaniment to 90% of the new tunes I hear after listening to them once or twice through. The question is, does the music NEED my constant participation? As Phantom Button says, one of the problems is the folks that feel they MUST participate, no matter what their participation brings to the tune. I have no problem with sitting and listening when folks bring in new tunes, in fact, there are times when a familiar tune comes up where I just sit and listen.
I think I have said this more than once here, but not every moment of trancendent musical beauty needs a guitar chugging along in the background.
No one ever played a tune on a bodhran or any other kind of folk drum for that matter. They can in the right hands produce a nice rhythmic accompaniment to tunes but they have never produced music in their own right.
Yes, there are many excellent examples of tremendous traditional drumming around the world. Don't forget tabla playing. Drums and druming can be marvelous, sophisticated and integral. Unfortunatly though, not so with Irish music.
My nephew, hearing Irish trad for maybe the first time, commented, "There's not a lot of rests, in Irish music." A perceptive lad.
I think that Irish dance tunes are designed to be complete when played on a single melody instrument. It's all there, if you know how to listen to it. No real need for a lot of harmonies or backing or "filling." Accompaniment can enhance a tune, but it has to be done right.
Tee he, I love that sketch, a classic
"No I'm not!"
"Yes you are!"
Forest. Yes, perceptive lad. But it's pretty obvious really. Yes, the music is very dense. Any thing you can really think of percussively to do with is already being done in the tune. That's the essence of the whole argument against trying it.
''I think that Irish dance tunes are designed to be complete when played on a single melody instrument. It's all there, if you know how to listen to it.''
How Zen, how soon do we start listening for the sound of one hand clapping? And as for the 'perceptive lad' weeeell now, are we to become innocents or adopt a spontaneous response or rely on our ignorance/preconceptions.
This thread is now so far up it's own a8rs...as for 'density' laugh, I nearly started. I wouldn't have posted except I'm p*ssed on good German beer. Cheers!! Have a lovely night!
Well, we know what opinions are like, everybody's got one....
But that "It's all there, you just have to learn how to listen to it" bit is a near-quote from a well-known and highly respected player. Me, I just like Irish tunes, and I'm trying figure out what makes them so special. So shoot me.
John - looking at your biog there I would agree with your first rule. It is important to enjoy the music. I would add a second rule though - "Don't ruin it for everyone else".
With those 2 rules you can't go wrong. You don't need another 30 or so rules.
I was going to start a thread about this but then asked myself what the point of that would be. Now you have helpfully come along and solved my dilemma. Cheers!
Sorry for the delay in loggin back in - the keys won't stay where they're put.
@No Cause - Always pleased to be of service.
I'm pre-supposing, of course, I'm not dealing with complete tw@ts; do as you would be done by? Some hope eh? And that includes contributing to threads that have become (at least to me anyway) an exercise in who can p*ss highest. And as for 'near quotations' - 'there are lies, damned lies, statistics and near quotations' .
I'm going to open another bottle of Weihenstephan now. See you in the morning, cheers, night night.
open letter to strummers and thumpers
open letter to strummers and thumpers
The following is a Public Service Announcement.
To those of you who feel you don't need to know the tune--i.e., drum beaters and guitar strummers--please remember that players who do need to know the tune will occasionally (or mostly, for beginners) not play. This changes the dynamics of the overall sound, and provides variety.
So please be kind, and sit one out sometimes. Don't play all the way through every single tune. OK? Thanks.
(I know we have been over all this, many times--but the message still needs to be broadcast, I think.)
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
But what if, as a strummer, you are the glue that holds it together?
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
If it's well crafted, like a good violin, it should hold together with a minimum of glue. Or, in some instances, the pieces are designed to interlock really well, so no glue is needed at all.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Hmm, I smoked a dove tail joint once
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Somehow, I believe you.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
How can a strummer who is playing away on a tune he/she doesn't know be the glue that holds anything together? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious about how that's possible.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
We're all as mystified as you are, but we've been assured that this is indeed the case.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
This can happen if the musicians don't know the tune either.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Joe Wass
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I've witnessed strummers who can jump on the wagon really quick and sort out the tonal landscape of tunes they never heard before--they are rare. I have also witnessed strummers who provide tonal landscapes that contradict the tune and don't support them even if they know them well. And of course I've witnessed just about everything in between. Strummers exist in a realm without definition sometimes; they can be both right and wrong at the same time depending on who's listening. With this in mind I think strummers have a difficult task when playing in sessions; they need to read the almost un-perceivable clues from people who are usually politely silent. If they don't want to become the bane of the session they have to attempt to sort out how the melody players are either enjoying or being annoyed by what they're contributing.
Players who are well-known and accepted in particular sessions, or just well-known for being excellent, have the easiest task. Newcomers and novices have an uphill struggle to sort out how their playing is being received. The only advice I can offer is to proceed with extreme caution.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"...they can be both right and wrong at the same time depending on who's listening." - what a great observation.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Sometimes the chord &/or rhythm choices of a guitar player can dominate the melody. There are some grand Irish melodies & subtle rhythms which are easily buried.
Please don't.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Well put, PB.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by zookman2
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
OK Torrest, let's get this straight, if you don't know the tune don't play it.
Why does this only apply to thumpers and strummers?
Why not scrapers and blowers?
Are you perpetuating the myth that melody players are a privileged class?
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I don't know that Forrest wouldn't include melody players with this concern... I do as far as this debate is goes. Can you say, "noodling"?
NOTE: When I've used the term "noodling" in the past it often prompts the legions of noodling advocates to march in with their torches and pitchforks.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Noodling advocates should be boiled with the rest of the pasta.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
From the original post ~
" . . . please remember that players who do need to know the tune will occasionally (or mostly, for beginners) not play."
Jack, you're tossing chum. ;)
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
looks like you have a bite.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Torrest is confusing.
You go to a session. someone starts a tune you don't know, it has an uncommon gait and a few other queer bits. How do you learn it?
Wait til you get home and see if any of it is still in the brainbox with all the other session detritus? not likely
Noodling or playing the bits you do know quietly hoping it will dawn on you any moment now? Seems intelligent.
OR.......... download sheetmusic and read the dots.
Or just say stuff it
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Run Forrest, run!
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Yes, non-stop noodling is just as bad. Because, like non-stop strumming and drumming, it's not the same thing as playing the tune.
I'm only just learning about Irish tunes, myself--but highly respected players say it's all about the tunes. Everything that makes Irish tunes special is right there, in the melody.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
And I have been known to record tunes at a session, so I can learn them at home. (I know at least one guitar player who also does that, and I respect him for it.)
Or I go home and look up the dots, just to be better prepared to learn that session's version next time it turns up.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Run? Heck no.
My strength is as the strength of ten
Because my heart is pure.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
After all these years of playing I'm still perplexed as to why anyone would try and play along with a tune they are'nt familiar with. Occasionally someone will say to me "Oh just fake it". I prefer to shut up and listen, and hopefully learn something new.But it not only applies to guitarists( my instrument), or non melody instruments. I regularly see a fiddler who plays along with everything played at the session, and a D melodeon player do the same, even in "F" tunes! (Johnny Connolly would be astonished at this feat of musical mastery!). If you have'nt learnt the tune listen, or better still record the tune, take it home, and study it(ask first about recording musos, but I've never had a problem with it).
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
If I don't know the tune, I'm off either to the gents or to the bar.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
There are a surprising amount of otherwise reasonable people who claim to be able to pick up tunes on the fly, but they usually just seem to be wearing the Emperor's new clothes when you witness them actually "doing" it.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Recorders????
Didn't have them in my day, I'll look in the cupboard with the epoxy glue. maybe there's one there.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"There are a surprising amount of otherwise reasonable people who claim to be able to pick up tunes on the fly, but they usually just seem to be wearing the Emperor's new clothes when you witness them actually "doing" it."
3 things: most tunes stand up without accompaniment. Accompaniment is not rocket science there are only a limited number of places a trad tune can go in any given scale or mode of the scale and rhythm is defined by the melody. Ears: there the sticky out bits on the side of your head, they come in handy for listening; > )
In my opinion a session is about craic and trying/learning tunes you wouldn't otherwise come across. Just keep it down until you have it. If the standard is too high find another session.
The only way an accompanist can develop an on the fly approach, which is the only approach IMO (and if you haven't heard one do it well then you need to get out more), is to get stuck in finding out what works and what doesn't in a particular situation. It's easy to be precious about your music but there's always someone better, thats worth remembering, a little humility goes a long way when dealing with someone thats trying but not quite there. You've got to make an arse of it to get it right, trial and error, likes.......
As for thumpers, I'll leave that for others..
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Sometimes the tune noodling impairs the craic; the fun isn't just about noodling on tunes you don't know. Sometimes being considerate of others is fun too.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Sure Mr Button, but if there's a rip roaring tune in full swing whats a little noodling? Being considerate is part of it too. I'm not suggesting otherwise.
If I'm playing accompaniment for someone and we near the end of a tune and they turn to me and say "Arse" or "Feck", I'm not going to stop and say "sorry mate I don't know what your about to play". I just do my best, thats not noodling, thats most accompaniment situations in sessions or as part of a scratch bands. You may or may not know the tune is my point and you are therefore now playing on the fly. Structure wise there's normally not a lot to worry about once you have a little experiences. Most melody players are aware of the fragility of the situation, so they want leap into a gypsy jazz routine and expect you to morph into Django, it's kept in context. Sure I'm familiar with a few tunes and have a few myself, my point is at an open session you may not pay your money, but you take your chance....
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"noodling, hoping the tune will dawn on you any moment now, seems intelligent."
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Pass me that dove tail glueless joint agian please.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
>There are a surprising amount of otherwise reasonable >people who claim to be able to pick up tunes on the fly, but >they usually just seem to be wearing the Emperor's new >clothes when you witness them actually "doing" it.
Sorry phantom, but I think you'll find there is actually no fly in the Emperors new suit.
- chris
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
It's straight forward really. It's impossible to play a tune you don't know. Impossible.
However, depending on the tune, it is possible to pick them up remarkably quickly. Especially if you are not just being some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. And especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. Or near some feckin strummer flailing around trying to get the chords by trial and error. And most especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit merely thumping a feckin drum and masking out any semblance of tune.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"It's straight forward really. It's impossible to play a tune you don't know. Impossible."
For melody llig I concur, although there are one or two players who are not far off, for strumming, provided it's straight forward it's a different ball game altogether.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Oh dear Michael, been skipping the medication again?
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
If you can successfully and correctly strum chords to a tune you've never heard before, that tune must be so similar to so many other tunes as to be pretty much pointless.
However, that's not what good strummers do. They get the key almost instantaneously, mostly drone for the first time through each part, have the changes ready for the second time through each part, and have it nailed for the next time through. It's not difficult, if you know the music in general and the tune is pretty predictable (which most are).
It's the same way you pic a tune on the fly. If it's a predictable tune, you can learn it in 2 times through easy.
But who wants to learn tunes so predictable that you feel you might as well already know them already? It's pointless and boring. You might as well be playing the feckin bodhran. "Oh, this is a reel, I can play reel" ... and off you go. Pointless, boring and feckin annoying.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
So, let's get this straight Gillig, There is a tune out there that I don't know. According to you if I don't know it I never will. Impossible you say. Give us a break you poor old geezer, were you born with all the tunes in your head???? No F ing wonder it's so big.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
mcknowall, that's not what he said. Why is it that you deliberately misconstrue things people say? Is it because you know it will cause a disagreement, and you're looking for that? Or are you just so dense that you actually can't understand what people are saying?
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by kennedy
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Knee jerk reaction? A knee jerk Lligaction?
1. See Llig post.
2. Read half of what Llig says.
3. Commence freaking out.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Noodles! Noodles again! Well, if we're doing strummers and whackers again...
Isn't noodling playing something that is not the tune? By basic logic, that would verboten, yes?
So regardless of whacking, strumming, scraping, plinking or tooting, if you don't know the tune...
Ah well, be it melody noodles or rampaging backers, it all comes down to the whole "I must participate!!!" thing some folks have when they come to session with an instrument, regardless of whether they know the particular piece of music currently being played.
A shame that the fine art of simply listening and enjoying the music you don't know isn't more appreciated.
Not that I'm any saint. I'll go run off for a smoke myself sometimes on those.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Spot on Michael.
I am a bit concerned about your comments not having any obvious spelling or grammar errors. Aside from that ~ spot on.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I should clarify something, I think. There are guitarists who are very good at improvising accompaniment for Irish tunes--because they are familiar with lots of Irish tunes, have a good ear, and play tastefully. A guitarist like that is a real asset to a session.
Similarly, someone who adds a bit of skilled drumming--here and there--during a session is also an asset.
But there are others... well, leave off the "et" part.
I'm talking about the twangers and bangers who don't know any tunes, and see no reason not to make constant noise on every single tune all night long.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"There are guitarists who are very good at improvising accompaniment for Irish tunes--because they are familiar with lots of Irish tunes, have a good ear, and play tastefully".
And often there's no need to drone, lol.. Seriously though above, now thats a very good mission statement for any accompaniment of any style, IMO, that is.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Don't be to hard on mcknowall. Perhaps he is trying to show how irritating it is when someone joins in an activity without knowing what is going on.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by flutefry
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
i wonder do u all talk so much sh!ite when u r around real people
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Its easier to say non-musicians isn't it?
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I think we shoud organise an event - "Session.org mega session".. Can you imagine the sheer variety of complete moonbeams that would turn up.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
no doubt with printed out transcripts and arguments from previous conversations on the web. We could even rent out a special room just for arguing..The Whiskey Room!! and we could all wear nametags.. Ive already been outed by several people where I live. My identity as Trucks Mulligan is as subtle as Llig
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
are you Trucks Mulligan - Yes
Your a F##cking Ejit - Cheers
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"Ah well, be it melody noodles or rampaging backers, it all comes down to the whole "I must participate!!!" thing some folks have when they come to session with an instrument, regardless of whether they know the particular piece of music currently being played."
This is the most accurate explanation of what drives noodlers and backers to unwittingly annoy their fellow sessioneers. I've been going to the same session for 20 years now and in that time this debate has been a topic both around the table and outside of the pub. I remember one fellow (a good friend) whose behavior was interesting to observe after this series of this debates commenced. He was in all earnest attempting to comply with the concept that noodling on tunes you don't know isn't the best way to contribute, but his knee-jerk compulsion would launch his fiddle to his neck and aim his bow at his strings regardless. As soon as he realized his compulsion had kicked in he would return the fiddle to his lap, and then he would have tiny convulsions trying to squelch the auto-response. When we made eye contact during his personal struggle we would both chuckle.
I had to fight this compulsion at first too... but I soon found it a lot easier to learn a tune I didn't know by listening closely rather than confusing things with errant notes. But I do understand this compulsion and I suppose it can be akin to quitting smoking for some people. I do envy the few I have witnessed who do seem to have the ability to pick up tunes on the fly so gracefully, but I'm not about to pretend I can do it at the expense of my fellow sessioneers.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
It seems to me that most of the traffic on this board can be divided into two camps.
1 The ferocious elitists who believe that Irish music is carved in stone tablets that only they can see and that tradition is a date sometime in the past that only they know. These people experience extreme discomfort if someone enters the room and is too friendly or not friendly enough or plays along in the background or has fun or has an instrument which is the wrong colour or length etc.
2 The less neurotic type of person with sufficient vision to realise that traditional music started back in the caveman days and has been incrementally evolving to this day.
One group is exclusive, one is inclusive.
Listening to the sessions of the first group,(which I usually do because they are not much fun to play with) is a bit like listening to the same CD all the time, listening and playing with the second group is to experience all the joy of the musical cornucopia available at a good session.
The session bar at Australia's National Folk Festival is my case in point. There are a few exclusive little groups huddled in stairwells and short hallways (so there's no room for interlopers!) and hundreds of others playing all sorts of music with varying degrees of competency wearing broad smiles.
Lots of DADGADers, scores of bodhrans didgeridoos, mouthbows noseflutes etc and wall to wall fellowship.
Lighten up kids, it's only music!
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Hahaha... you're joking... right? If you aren't you might want to read between your lines a bit there, Knowitall.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
That's all fine and good, mcknowall--but the mission statement of this web site is quite clear:
"The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes."
Maybe you need to find some sort of "all-inclusive musical cornucopia" web site instead.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
The thing I find funny in Knowitall's post is that he breaks the vast oceans of opinion in here into just 2 groups:
a) "The ferocious elitists who believe that Irish music is carved in stone tablets that only they can see and that tradition is a date sometime in the past that only they know."
and b) "hundreds of others playing all sorts of music with varying degrees of competency wearing broad smiles."
He want's to be all-inclusive, but he has excluded most of the people who participate in this website by just presenting the extremes. He also seems to divide it between people who prefer his kind of session and all the rest. The conclusion seems to be you're either wonderful and like him or you're "ferocious elitists who believe that Irish music is carved in stone tablets that only they can see and that tradition is a date sometime in the past that only they know." hahahaha geeez
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I kind of liked: "the myth that melody players are a privileged class"
That's rich, on a web site dedicated to tunes--i.e., melodies.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Quite so, passing on tunes, not performing them.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
and certainly not pontificating
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I know, I know, it hurts to be an optional accessory. I used to play electric violin in rock bands. For a rock band, bass/drums/guitar are essential. An electric violin is strictly optional.
For Irish tunes, a melody player is essential. Accompaniment is optional. That's not dogma, it's a simple fact.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
(Shame on me, for feeding the troll. Bad Forrest!)
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Bangers and twangers!!!
Ex. 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAdaIxP6I7M
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I'm starting to get the feeling that this music has survived despite the people that play it, not thanks to them.
Just trying to work out how I agree with Llig, PB and McK all at once, but I do.
I know exactly the sessionistas you're referring to, McK. Criseknows theres enough of 'em around. And they're a pain in the a*se to session with, and not much better to listen to.
But I've also been stuck next to kn*bheads with tippers in their hands, or f*ckwits who bash out completely and utterly wrong chords continually whilst totally oblivious to the fact they're destroying any semblance of musicality.
There's plenty of truth on both sides.
Eno
P.S. Fedorastain, was that the right link? Didn't make much sense to me....
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Thanks for assisting Torrest, but my inquisitive nature is not quite sated just yet.
I am a bit rusty with computerish, but there is a navigation bar thingy at the top RH of the page which steers us to "tunes" (which I use all the time especially for the corny little castrated sound files) and then there is another page which you have obviously learnt how to land on called "discussions".
THIS is the discussion page.
The tune page is "all about tunes", the discussion page is where people express opinions.
Now, there are melody players who are arhythmic and strummers who don't understand the finer points of a melody.
We do not take these people out the back and shoot them, we embrace and nurture them.
Or at least I do anyway, I detest bullies of any stripe.
May all your chooks turn into emus and kick your sh*thouse to bits.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
It is a privilege to play tunes. And I'm at an utter loss as to how some pathetic goat thwacker can attempt to twist that into something negative.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I play tunes too .
I was merely addressing your ridiculous snobbery, and that of your equally elitist cohorts on this site.
Irish traditional music is NOT your personal franchise, there are NO RULES and people should not quake in fear when in your presence.
The same goes for your chooks gillfish.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I'd like to redirect this discussion back to a very interesting point made earlier on. PB wrote:
"Strummers exist in a realm without definition sometimes; they can be both right and wrong at the same time depending on who's listening."
This is it. Finally someone has distilled it down to one sentence. Thank you PB.
Now my own experience as it relates to this comment.
I come from an ensemble background - I played with groups all along - rock and bluegrass for example. Chords and accompaniment have always been a part of my soundscape.
When I play Irish music, I thrive with tasteful chordal and harmonic accompaniment, whether I am attempting it, or whether another player is providing this. For me, the music needs this.
On the other hand, there are the tune-in-unison people. They prefer to play primarily single note melodies on their instruments, and they mainly enjoy unison playing since that's the main way they learned the music. In some cases it's the only type of music they actually enjoy to play. They tend to enjoy the music best only when it's played in unison with others, with minimal chordal or harmonic accompaniment.
Once I met a guitar player, who is probably the best guitarist I've ever meet and enjoyed tunes with, who made me understand the difference of the types of players I have mentioned above. This player, who is also a consummate tunes player on the violin and other instruments, loved chordal accompaniment as much as I do. After some conversation I realized that the main reason we connected so well was that we were both in the chordal accompaniment category of musician. While we both care about the melodies, we both need the chords to fully flesh out the music.
On the other hand, I know individuals who just can't stand chordal accompaniment unless it's nearly inaudible.
So, to return to the point of the quote, the reaction to strumming is usually dependent upon the musical personality and background of the listener.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by halfwaythere
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Wot he said!
Fresh vital thinking, you won't last long with these dodderers halfwaythere
WoooHooo
Diddly i di di
Diddly o do do
diddly iddly idy ody di di do
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
So you are playing a set of tunes in a session and the tunes go from one in G to a tune in D. The strummer continues thru the second one playing in G. What do you do, McKnowAll? What are you thinking as the tune progresses? At the end of the set, you may mention to this guitar player that the second tune is in D. He tells you there are no right or wrong chords. Now what?
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by feardearg
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
You tell them that there are right and wrong keys
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Now he's offended. There goes the spirit of the "session". Darn. Oh well.
But then again, there are no wrong keys. It's just a matter of who is listening.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by feardearg
Elitist Hog!
You must be some kind of a elitest, Solidmahog.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by feardearg
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Excellent, a session.org class stoush between mcknowall and llig; this has the potential to be a lot of fun. It's been over a week now since a decent punch-up here.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
is anyone going to through in some nationalism as well?
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"You go to a session. someone starts a tune you don't know, it has an uncommon gait and a few other queer bits. How do you learn it?
Wait til you get home and see if any of it is still in the brainbox with all the other session detritus? not likely
Noodling or playing the bits you do know quietly hoping it will dawn on you any moment now? Seems intelligent.
OR.......... download sheetmusic and read the dots.
Or just say stuff it"
There IS another way:
- First time you hear the tune, sit back and listen
- Next time you hear the tune, sit back and listen
- Next time you hear the tune, listen and try playing silently following with your fingers
- Next time you hear the tune, try playing along quietly, noticing any awkward spots
- Next time you hear the tune, play along.
The actual number of 'next times' will depends on how fast a learner you are, how much you work on it in between, whether you have recordings of it to listen to, whether you have sheet music to look at (yes - everything in moderation) etc. A few people will be able to hear the tune through once and have it note-perfect by the second time round. Many more will be able to listen through at one session and be playing it 80-90% right (anything from 0-50% right might be called 'noodling') by the next session. Less experienced players would probably need to be exposed to the tune a few more times and perhaps spend a bit of time working on it privately. But the point is, you learn the most by listening - if you've only got half the tune, you're better off listening than playing along.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
...Get the tune in your head first, then try to play it.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
"anything from 0-50% right might be called 'noodling'"
No doubt, opinions will vary on the actual figures. And where do you draw the line between 'noodling' and 'variation'?
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
It's not just that this web site is about tunes--although that is its stated purpose, on the home page--it's that Irish traditional music is about the tunes. Consider these situations:
1. I'm visiting a session that has some good players. I know some of their tunes, but their settings are slightly different, so I'm listening closely for the different notes--or trying to. It's difficult, because there's an experimental strummer sitting next to me, playing random chords all the way through every tune. The extra work of filtering out all those wrong notes is preventing me from learning more about the tunes.
2. I'm currently learning a certain Paddy Fahy reel, trying to get all the quirky accidentals just right. Another player is working on it too, and starts it up at the session. But again, I can't hear all the notes because of a drummer sat next to me who plays all the way through every single tune.
I would not go to a drum circle and expect the drummers to follow my lead, or go to a song circle (with lots of strummers) and expect to play/noodle the melodies of all the songs all night long. I'm just looking for the same consideration at Irish sessions, which are about the tunes.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
And the craic, of course. But with the craic, there are the tunes.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Yep, that's exactly what I said:
"However, depending on the tune, it is possible to pick them up remarkably quickly. Especially if you are not just being some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. And especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit flailing around trying to get it by trial and error. Or near some feckin strummer flailing around trying to get the chords by trial and error. And most especially if you are nowhere near the vicinity of some feckin eedjit merely thumping a feckin drum and masking out any semblance of tune.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
And especially if said eedjits never ever stop, because why should they, they don't need to actually know the tune after all, so why not just keep going. Never-ending, constant, unremitting, nonstop, unrelenting....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxafIhYFOr0
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Tee he, I liked that one.
But back to the grind:
I'm offended by the "no rules" idiocy.
While I think that one of the greatest strengths of this music is the fluidity of what defines what "tune" is, the one rule that is absolutly tantamount to the definiton of the music is that The Tune Is King.
# Posted on August 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Mr feardearg, no just a chancer. But if the coda is acceptable IE ending on the right note, thats a start.
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Sorry fans,
Been away playing tunes all afternoon,
On my bodhran mainly, it is certainly re-assuring to see that on the other hand nothing much has changed here.
Snarky malarkey, that's all it is!
Snarkey malarkey.
And not only that, but they can't spell f u c k i n g
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Must tend the barbie now, snags and beer are calling.
Gee, there's a tune in that
Snags and beer are calling, snags and beer are calling, s n a g s a n d b e e r a r e c a l l i n g
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
where there are no notes there is no tune.
ps- what's a snag?
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
ha ha ha
ha ha ha,
ha ha ha
and a ha ha ha
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Oh no, that's a polka, now let me see, a snag is???
A sensitive new age guy!!
silly sausage
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
oh. all the snags here drink chardonnay
ah ah ah
ah ah ah,etc....
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
maybe there's a lot to be learned about subtlety, from all perspectives, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6YlefRabIU
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
I can provide moderately appropriate accompaniment to 90% of the new tunes I hear after listening to them once or twice through. The question is, does the music NEED my constant participation? As Phantom Button says, one of the problems is the folks that feel they MUST participate, no matter what their participation brings to the tune. I have no problem with sitting and listening when folks bring in new tunes, in fact, there are times when a familiar tune comes up where I just sit and listen.
I think I have said this more than once here, but not every moment of trancendent musical beauty needs a guitar chugging along in the background.
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Here's another option, if your session can afford one.
http://www.clearsonic.com/IsoPacA.htm
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqcSWI6Ppks
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Forrest
good idea it says it absorbs 60% of sound but it looks like it stops 100% of air so why? Oh I get it
# Posted on August 16th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
No one ever played a tune on a bodhran or any other kind of folk drum for that matter. They can in the right hands produce a nice rhythmic accompaniment to tunes but they have never produced music in their own right.
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by awwilko
Other kind of folk drum . . .
There is some excellent drumming in Mali, talking drum in Nigeria, & steel drum on Trinidad & Tobago. Ours is not not the only rhythmic tradition.
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Yes, there are many excellent examples of tremendous traditional drumming around the world. Don't forget tabla playing. Drums and druming can be marvelous, sophisticated and integral. Unfortunatly though, not so with Irish music.
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by llig leahcim
;)
Fair play.
Thanks for mentioning tabla.
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
My nephew, hearing Irish trad for maybe the first time, commented, "There's not a lot of rests, in Irish music." A perceptive lad.
I think that Irish dance tunes are designed to be complete when played on a single melody instrument. It's all there, if you know how to listen to it. No real need for a lot of harmonies or backing or "filling." Accompaniment can enhance a tune, but it has to be done right.
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
This thread reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by awildman
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Tee he, I love that sketch, a classic
"No I'm not!"
"Yes you are!"
Forest. Yes, perceptive lad. But it's pretty obvious really. Yes, the music is very dense. Any thing you can really think of percussively to do with is already being done in the tune. That's the essence of the whole argument against trying it.
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Obvious to some, but not to others. That's why we fight the good fight, eh?
# Posted on August 17th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
''I think that Irish dance tunes are designed to be complete when played on a single melody instrument. It's all there, if you know how to listen to it.''
How Zen, how soon do we start listening for the sound of one hand clapping? And as for the 'perceptive lad' weeeell now, are we to become innocents or adopt a spontaneous response or rely on our ignorance/preconceptions.
This thread is now so far up it's own a8rs...as for 'density' laugh, I nearly started. I wouldn't have posted except I'm p*ssed on good German beer. Cheers!! Have a lovely night!
# Posted on August 18th 2009 by john knoss
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Well, we know what opinions are like, everybody's got one....
But that "It's all there, you just have to learn how to listen to it" bit is a near-quote from a well-known and highly respected player. Me, I just like Irish tunes, and I'm trying figure out what makes them so special. So shoot me.
# Posted on August 18th 2009 by John Galt
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
John - looking at your biog there I would agree with your first rule. It is important to enjoy the music. I would add a second rule though - "Don't ruin it for everyone else".
With those 2 rules you can't go wrong. You don't need another 30 or so rules.
I was going to start a thread about this but then asked myself what the point of that would be. Now you have helpfully come along and solved my dilemma. Cheers!
# Posted on August 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
Sorry for the delay in loggin back in - the keys won't stay where they're put.
@No Cause - Always pleased to be of service.
I'm pre-supposing, of course, I'm not dealing with complete tw@ts; do as you would be done by? Some hope eh? And that includes contributing to threads that have become (at least to me anyway) an exercise in who can p*ss highest. And as for 'near quotations' - 'there are lies, damned lies, statistics and near quotations' .
I'm going to open another bottle of Weihenstephan now. See you in the morning, cheers, night night.
# Posted on August 18th 2009 by john knoss
Re: open letter to strummers and thumpers
hmmmph. Beer snobs. Who needs 'em? Don't let the bedbugs bite.
# Posted on August 18th 2009 by John Galt