Now that those cran discussions are dealt with I want to know if any of you know how to do those damn tongued triplets.
I don't think crans are hard to do, but even thinking of the tongued triplets give me an headache. So, does Brian Finnegan have a rare disease that makes his tongue go crazy or is he just brilliant?
Is it simply to do a for instance or DDD or ggg or is it really deeper than that?
DDD or GGG means you are using the same bit of your tongue for each attack. Try using D-G-D or even D-G-R as you can get two 'attacks' with one tongue movement. Takes a bit of practice but is worth it
Yohan is right, although you might also try "tuh-kuh-tuh" which might bring your tongue up higher against the hard palate, giving a slightly different effect.
There is also another way, used by some of the rare older trad musicians who triple-tongue, such as my friend Packie Manus Byrne, and this is to use a "diddle-dee" movement. You might find this easier. I have in fact heard from a reliable source who is pally with Mr Finnegan that this is what he does, but it's second-hand information.
In my experiments with these techniques I've found it easier to get a more even, clearly articulated triplet with "diddle-dee" (such as you might want to use in hornpipes) whereas a more explosive, compressed sound, analogous to trebling on the fiddle for use in fast reels, seems easier with "tuh-kuh-tuh".
Having said that Brian F is quite clearly brilliant. I'm rather dreading the legions of manic-tongued imitators who are bound to be unleashed on us within the next few years...
diddle-dee and tuk-kuh-tuh work equally well - just use whatever works best for you. Perhaps start with just tuh-kuh first off - this double tonguing is very useful for fast passges. You may have a flowing legato style which means you use little or no tonguing. My personal preference is to play a 'soft-tongued legato' style as you can bring more contrast to your playing. This is probably a thow-back to my Baroque music days when dynamic contrast was often achieved by note length as opposed to volume produced. I even vaguely recall a 'L-R' type attack which I could never properly master...
OK I know Brad is going to yell at me, but oh well, I found this very interesting, & you may too.
Kevin Crawford does not actually triple tongue, he uses a glottal stop flutter that is almost like gargling. He told us this (& demonstrated it) in his workshop in Montana this summer. There is no tongue movement, it's all in the throat. It took him over 3 months to get it down, something he picked up from a flute player from India, if I'm remembering correctly. He even joked the ornament took over his life for a short spell (hee hee), now he uses it more sparingly. FWIW.
Oh yeah, I meant to ask you about that, Em, and it completely slipped my mind. Sooo...is he like closing off the throat at the uvula level or so, like saying "kukukuk" with the back of your throat?
LOLOL.... Zina I am hereby ordering you to cease & desist all work on your sewing machine (or flute) for tonight! Go pour yourself a nice drink, curl up with your hubby & forget all about... everything else. Tomorrow & tomorrow & tomorrow....
Can't! Got two little girls coming tomorrow for their first fitting, and I'd like to have their dresses ready for them! But I'm planning on eating dinner here in a couple of minutes and then taking a nap til Pete gets home and then bull through the rest of it. Shouldn't take TOO terribly long, just have to interface the skirts, cut 'em out and whap 'em together.
Oy! The dreaded all-nighter.... I wish I could stay up & cheer you on, but I've got work in the morning. I can't wait til the clocks change, it's so depressing, dark when you leave the house & dark when you get home. Anyway, I know you'll do great, you always do!!! Those girls are very very lucky to have you working this hard for them, chica. *besitas*
yes, but I still find more outside, not every day but frequently. I found one 2 days ago near my sliding glass doors, abdomen like a gumball, huge red hourglass. Shot of arachnicide, she's still out there, dead as a doornail, but I don't feel like picking her up. Way to hijack a thread, yahoo!
LOL -- spiders, yuuuuuck. But then there's all the places round the US right now having massive overflows of, of all things, ladybug beetles. Yeeps.
I have a friend who *swears* that you can make a deal with all the critters usually known as "vermin" -- sort of a mental broadcast where you tell them that if you can't see them and they leave you alone, the deal is that they can stay. But if you see one of them or get bitten or they leave droppings about or whatever, it's war. He swears he's never seen another mouse or spider or ants in his house since doing so.
Yes, except in those parts of the country of the blind where the spiders are extremely poisonous, where the blind wonder what it is that gives them bites that blister up and then a kind of festering disease that itches and supporates and decays and spreads...In those parts of the country of the blind, they're very paranoid, but they're still not afraid of spiders.
Why has nobody said that tongued triplets sound terrible in diddley music, completely out of character with the tradition, horrid, never do it ever ever ever.
[Why has nobody said that tongued triplets sound terrible in diddley music, completely out of character with the tradition, horrid, never do it ever ever ever.]
I dunno, maybe because that wasn't the question being asked!
Seriously Michael I can understand your not liking the sound of tongued triplets, and you can make the case that they have not been widely used until recently.
But why do you think they are out of character with the tradition when you have staccato trebling on fiddles, and tight triplets and the like on the pipes. Why shouldn't whistlers make use of something analogous to provide a nice contrast with more fluid sounds, as fiddlers and pipers do?
Not to mention trebling on the banjo - which can and often does sound a LOT nastier than triple tonguing on the whistle.
I think they work on the banjo and the fiddle because of the percussive nature of the instruments. Your'e essentially hitting the strings with the bow or the plectrum anyway, so it's all part of the same sound. With the pipes though, no definition is created by touching the reed, it's all done with the fingers over the holes.
But I supose what really bugs me about it is it just reminds me of people who can't play. They see a triplet writen in a book and they just go ahead and tongue it. It reminds me of people who are either too lazy to learn how to play rolls properly, or too thick to even notice the difference.
Tongued triplets
Tongued triplets
Now that those cran discussions are dealt with I want to know if any of you know how to do those damn tongued triplets.
I don't think crans are hard to do, but even thinking of the tongued triplets give me an headache. So, does Brian Finnegan have a rare disease that makes his tongue go crazy or is he just brilliant?
Is it simply to do a for instance or DDD or ggg or is it really deeper than that?
# Posted on October 8th 2003 by tufbo
Re: Tongued triplets
DDD or GGG means you are using the same bit of your tongue for each attack. Try using D-G-D or even D-G-R as you can get two 'attacks' with one tongue movement. Takes a bit of practice but is worth it
# Posted on October 8th 2003 by Yohan
Re: Tongued triplets
Yohan is right, although you might also try "tuh-kuh-tuh" which might bring your tongue up higher against the hard palate, giving a slightly different effect.
There is also another way, used by some of the rare older trad musicians who triple-tongue, such as my friend Packie Manus Byrne, and this is to use a "diddle-dee" movement. You might find this easier. I have in fact heard from a reliable source who is pally with Mr Finnegan that this is what he does, but it's second-hand information.
In my experiments with these techniques I've found it easier to get a more even, clearly articulated triplet with "diddle-dee" (such as you might want to use in hornpipes) whereas a more explosive, compressed sound, analogous to trebling on the fiddle for use in fast reels, seems easier with "tuh-kuh-tuh".
Having said that Brian F is quite clearly brilliant. I'm rather dreading the legions of manic-tongued imitators who are bound to be unleashed on us within the next few years...
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tongued triplets
diddle-dee and tuk-kuh-tuh work equally well - just use whatever works best for you. Perhaps start with just tuh-kuh first off - this double tonguing is very useful for fast passges. You may have a flowing legato style which means you use little or no tonguing. My personal preference is to play a 'soft-tongued legato' style as you can bring more contrast to your playing. This is probably a thow-back to my Baroque music days when dynamic contrast was often achieved by note length as opposed to volume produced. I even vaguely recall a 'L-R' type attack which I could never properly master...
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Yohan
Re: Tongued triplets
OK I know Brad is going to yell at me, but oh well, I found this very interesting, & you may too.
Kevin Crawford does not actually triple tongue, he uses a glottal stop flutter that is almost like gargling. He told us this (& demonstrated it) in his workshop in Montana this summer. There is no tongue movement, it's all in the throat. It took him over 3 months to get it down, something he picked up from a flute player from India, if I'm remembering correctly. He even joked the ornament took over his life for a short spell (hee hee), now he uses it more sparingly. FWIW.
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
Oh yeah, I meant to ask you about that, Em, and it completely slipped my mind. Sooo...is he like closing off the throat at the uvula level or so, like saying "kukukuk" with the back of your throat?
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
A glottal stop is sort of like coughing, so yeah. Just very very very quickly.
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
Geez, I nearly just gave myself a fit of coughing trying it...LOL
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
And you're supposed to keep your embrouchure while you're doing this?!?
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
I bet I'm not the only person to think that if this wasn't an Irish music website, this thread would be pretty darn graphic.
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
Damn you, PG! LOL I'd just gotten that image out of my head!
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Um. The image of the three babies dressed up as flowers, um, with their tongues sticking out. Yeah. That was it.
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
Zina, you are working wayyyy too hard on those dresses!
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
I swear, it's this flute thing...I'm waiting to stop being dizzy...
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
Oh sure, blame the flute! We've all been there Zina, we've all been there....
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
No, no, you're thinking of Michael Gill in the bathtop with his flute...
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Bath TUB...
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
LOLOL.... Zina I am hereby ordering you to cease & desist all work on your sewing machine (or flute) for tonight! Go pour yourself a nice drink, curl up with your hubby & forget all about... everything else. Tomorrow & tomorrow & tomorrow....
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
Can't! Got two little girls coming tomorrow for their first fitting, and I'd like to have their dresses ready for them!
But I'm planning on eating dinner here in a couple of minutes and then taking a nap til Pete gets home and then bull through the rest of it. Shouldn't take TOO terribly long, just have to interface the skirts, cut 'em out and whap 'em together.
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
Oy! The dreaded all-nighter.... I wish I could stay up & cheer you on, but I've got work in the morning. I can't wait til the clocks change, it's so depressing, dark when you leave the house & dark when you get home. Anyway, I know you'll do great, you always do!!! Those girls are very very lucky to have you working this hard for them, chica. *besitas*
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
Well, hopefully I'll get *some* sleep -- we have a gig tomorrow evening. Nighty night, PG. Don't let the, er, black widows bite...
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
Not funny. Now get some sleep!
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
You too -- and haven't they come to spray for those beasties yet?
# Posted on October 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
Oops...
yes, but I still find more outside, not every day but frequently. I found one 2 days ago near my sliding glass doors, abdomen like a gumball, huge red hourglass. Shot of arachnicide, she's still out there, dead as a doornail, but I don't feel like picking her up. Way to hijack a thread, yahoo!
# Posted on October 10th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Tongued triplets
LOL -- spiders, yuuuuuck. But then there's all the places round the US right now having massive overflows of, of all things, ladybug beetles. Yeeps.
I have a friend who *swears* that you can make a deal with all the critters usually known as "vermin" -- sort of a mental broadcast where you tell them that if you can't see them and they leave you alone, the deal is that they can stay. But if you see one of them or get bitten or they leave droppings about or whatever, it's war. He swears he's never seen another mouse or spider or ants in his house since doing so.
zls
# Posted on October 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
In the country of the blind, no one is afraid of spiders.
# Posted on October 10th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Tongued triplets
Yes, except in those parts of the country of the blind where the spiders are extremely poisonous, where the blind wonder what it is that gives them bites that blister up and then a kind of festering disease that itches and supporates and decays and spreads...In those parts of the country of the blind, they're very paranoid, but they're still not afraid of spiders.
*snort*
# Posted on October 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Tongued triplets
Why has nobody said that tongued triplets sound terrible in diddley music, completely out of character with the tradition, horrid, never do it ever ever ever.
# Posted on October 11th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Tongued triplets
One word.... well, two: Josie McDermott
I agree that they can be overused. Sean Ryan's whistle style seems to me to be a little excessive.
# Posted on October 12th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tongued triplets
[Why has nobody said that tongued triplets sound terrible in diddley music, completely out of character with the tradition, horrid, never do it ever ever ever.]
I dunno, maybe because that wasn't the question being asked!
Seriously Michael I can understand your not liking the sound of tongued triplets, and you can make the case that they have not been widely used until recently.
But why do you think they are out of character with the tradition when you have staccato trebling on fiddles, and tight triplets and the like on the pipes. Why shouldn't whistlers make use of something analogous to provide a nice contrast with more fluid sounds, as fiddlers and pipers do?
Not to mention trebling on the banjo - which can and often does sound a LOT nastier than triple tonguing on the whistle.
* ducks *
# Posted on October 13th 2003 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tongued triplets
hmmm, why? good question.
I think they work on the banjo and the fiddle because of the percussive nature of the instruments. Your'e essentially hitting the strings with the bow or the plectrum anyway, so it's all part of the same sound. With the pipes though, no definition is created by touching the reed, it's all done with the fingers over the holes.
But I supose what really bugs me about it is it just reminds me of people who can't play. They see a triplet writen in a book and they just go ahead and tongue it. It reminds me of people who are either too lazy to learn how to play rolls properly, or too thick to even notice the difference.
# Posted on October 13th 2003 by llig leahcim