Im looking to buy a bouzouki and realised the one I got a lend of (in the mean time) has a few intonation probelms when using a capo.
For those out there with Foleys etc do you have the same problem?, is this a issue with bouzoukis in general or are there makers who have 'spot on' intonation up and down the neck?
By the way I'm thinking of either getting a Joe Foley or a Paul Hathway instrument any suggestions?
The solution could be as simple as bridge placement (assuming your bouzouki has a 'floating' bridge) - possibly setting it at an angle. But most makers of higher quality instruments use some kind of compensation pattern on their bridges - some are now sing compensated saddles as well. These, if properly worked out, can give at least *nearly* spot-on intonation all the way down the neck - but I'm not sure *perfect* intonation is possible (short of partial fretting or some such ridiculously fiddly measure), due to the mechanical characteristics of strings.
Provided the frets are properly placed and the neck is not twisted or bowed, it should be perfectly possible to get the intonation sounding good on any instrument, regardless of quality. In addition to the bridge placement, it might require lowering of the nut slots (many cheaper instruments are fitted with a high nut, which causes sharp intonation at the first couple of frets). A high bridge causes the intonation to go sharp further down the neck, so lowering the bridge lessens intonation problems. Levelling and dressing the frets might also help, if there is any unevenness, as it allows lower action without buzzing.
An instrument by a reputable maker like Foley shouldn't have intonation problems. The chances are that the bridge has been moved at some time.
Check that the first string, fretted at the twelfth fret matches the harmonic. If not move that end of the bridge backwards or forwards until it does. Then do the same on the fourth string to position the bass end of the bridge.
If the instrument is octave strung on the bass courses there is always a slight intonation difference between the fundamental and octave strings, but not enough to cause problems - it just gives a richer sound, like a wet-tuned accordian. If the intonation problem is severe between the fundamental and octave, it probably means the wrong gauge strings have been fitted.
FWIW, I recommend using an analog electronic tuner with a real meter for checking intonation, and here’s why:
It’s been reported that very few, if any, people can hear a difference of less than five cents between two consecutive notes (not sounding together). When you set intonation by comparing harmonics against fretted notes, you’re dealing with this potential source of error. A tuner with an electromechanical meter will show you very tiny differences between the notes. In my experience, it has made a noticeable difference in the results.
As for suggestions of make....I would highly recommend Davy Stuart instruments. I wanted a bouzouki in 2000 and was talked into exploring luthiers instead of buying off the rack. Not only is his a beatufuly crafted instrument but the tone is amazing. It just sings! I can not say enough good things about it! Plus the exchange rate of the N.Z. dollar (where he lives) was so favourable.
And if I had a choice I would always pick a Foley over a hathway....Nothing really wrong with hathways but Joe Foleys workmanship and sound is alot better.
Is there a trust rod in the neck of the bouzouki you have now? What make is it?
Most bouzoukis with time,-even Foleys and the like, might need a tweek now and then. And if you play it alot its worth getting it checked out once every year or two by someone who knows what they are at.
I've had my Foley since February and am very happy with it indeed. It's god a good cutting sound, complex and bright on the trebles and with real depth to the basses. It's got marvellous sustain and looks the business. Intonation is excellent and Joe is such a nice chap and cares deeply about his instruments.
Order one now (mine took a year) and it'll be here before you know it.
You won't go wrong with Davy Stuart or Joe Foley. Davy will be less expensive, but I heard his wait time is now around 2 years. The advantage for you to go with Joe is that he is in Dublin and you can visit with him about the instrument you want. Last fall he told me that his wait time was around 1 year.
What, exactly, are the problems ?
For instance, if you capo on the first fret and then play up the neck, does it then seem to stay in tune with itself ? That would be a nut ( height ) problem.
Or does it get progressively worse as it goes up the neck ?
That would be a bridge/saddle position issue, possibly exacerbated by a poor action.
I have posted more than once previously about the mythical octave strings intonation problem.
If you have a good tuner you should be able to sort out, at least, which of these problenms it is.
By the way, a new set of strings often makes the whole instrument play better.
Popping a capo on is going to push the strings harder than you will with fingers and risk bending the notes. It might be worth experimenting with placing the capo as near to the fret as poss instead of midway between frets.
Yep, that makes all the difference, Phil. If you place the capo close enough to the fret - maybe even touching it - you can get by with hardly any string bending.
Bouzouki Intonation
Bouzouki Intonation
Im looking to buy a bouzouki and realised the one I got a lend of (in the mean time) has a few intonation probelms when using a capo.
For those out there with Foleys etc do you have the same problem?, is this a issue with bouzoukis in general or are there makers who have 'spot on' intonation up and down the neck?
By the way I'm thinking of either getting a Joe Foley or a Paul Hathway instrument any suggestions?
Cheers
Kes
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by Kess
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
The solution could be as simple as bridge placement (assuming your bouzouki has a 'floating' bridge) - possibly setting it at an angle. But most makers of higher quality instruments use some kind of compensation pattern on their bridges - some are now sing compensated saddles as well. These, if properly worked out, can give at least *nearly* spot-on intonation all the way down the neck - but I'm not sure *perfect* intonation is possible (short of partial fretting or some such ridiculously fiddly measure), due to the mechanical characteristics of strings.
Provided the frets are properly placed and the neck is not twisted or bowed, it should be perfectly possible to get the intonation sounding good on any instrument, regardless of quality. In addition to the bridge placement, it might require lowering of the nut slots (many cheaper instruments are fitted with a high nut, which causes sharp intonation at the first couple of frets). A high bridge causes the intonation to go sharp further down the neck, so lowering the bridge lessens intonation problems. Levelling and dressing the frets might also help, if there is any unevenness, as it allows lower action without buzzing.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
...A good music shop should be able to do any or all of the above, as necessary.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
An instrument by a reputable maker like Foley shouldn't have intonation problems. The chances are that the bridge has been moved at some time.
Check that the first string, fretted at the twelfth fret matches the harmonic. If not move that end of the bridge backwards or forwards until it does. Then do the same on the fourth string to position the bass end of the bridge.
If the instrument is octave strung on the bass courses there is always a slight intonation difference between the fundamental and octave strings, but not enough to cause problems - it just gives a richer sound, like a wet-tuned accordian. If the intonation problem is severe between the fundamental and octave, it probably means the wrong gauge strings have been fitted.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by skreech
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
FWIW, I recommend using an analog electronic tuner with a real meter for checking intonation, and here’s why:
It’s been reported that very few, if any, people can hear a difference of less than five cents between two consecutive notes (not sounding together). When you set intonation by comparing harmonics against fretted notes, you’re dealing with this potential source of error. A tuner with an electromechanical meter will show you very tiny differences between the notes. In my experience, it has made a noticeable difference in the results.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
As for suggestions of make....I would highly recommend Davy Stuart instruments. I wanted a bouzouki in 2000 and was talked into exploring luthiers instead of buying off the rack. Not only is his a beatufuly crafted instrument but the tone is amazing. It just sings! I can not say enough good things about it! Plus the exchange rate of the N.Z. dollar (where he lives) was so favourable.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by Eatonsatcantas
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
Yep, Davy is making nice stuff these days,
And if I had a choice I would always pick a Foley over a hathway....Nothing really wrong with hathways but Joe Foleys workmanship and sound is alot better.
Is there a trust rod in the neck of the bouzouki you have now? What make is it?
Most bouzoukis with time,-even Foleys and the like, might need a tweek now and then. And if you play it alot its worth getting it checked out once every year or two by someone who knows what they are at.
All the best,
Seanie.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by seaniemcg
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
What sort of Capo are you using by the way??
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by seaniemcg
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
I've had my Foley since February and am very happy with it indeed. It's god a good cutting sound, complex and bright on the trebles and with real depth to the basses. It's got marvellous sustain and looks the business. Intonation is excellent and Joe is such a nice chap and cares deeply about his instruments.
Order one now (mine took a year) and it'll be here before you know it.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
You won't go wrong with Davy Stuart or Joe Foley. Davy will be less expensive, but I heard his wait time is now around 2 years. The advantage for you to go with Joe is that he is in Dublin and you can visit with him about the instrument you want. Last fall he told me that his wait time was around 1 year.
John
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by John Conoboy
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
What, exactly, are the problems ?
For instance, if you capo on the first fret and then play up the neck, does it then seem to stay in tune with itself ? That would be a nut ( height ) problem.
Or does it get progressively worse as it goes up the neck ?
That would be a bridge/saddle position issue, possibly exacerbated by a poor action.
I have posted more than once previously about the mythical octave strings intonation problem.
If you have a good tuner you should be able to sort out, at least, which of these problenms it is.
By the way, a new set of strings often makes the whole instrument play better.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
Popping a capo on is going to push the strings harder than you will with fingers and risk bending the notes. It might be worth experimenting with placing the capo as near to the fret as poss instead of midway between frets.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Phil Williams
Re: Bouzouki Intonation
Yep, that makes all the difference, Phil. If you place the capo close enough to the fret - maybe even touching it - you can get by with hardly any string bending.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Bob himself