If this site is dedicated to traditional Irish music why does it have so much Scottish music on it e.g. Father John Macmillan of Barra,a Strathspey? Barra is an island in the Outer Hebrides,off the west coast of Scotland and Strathspey is an area in the Grampian Mountains in the North East of Scotland. Is this yet another example of the Irish Mafia in action? The Irish aren't the only Celts you know!!!
Father John MacMillan of Barra isn't a strathspey -- it is a 2/4 march.
My two cents -- and not everyone agrees with me -- is that Irish music and Scottish music are so closely related that it is a waste of time and energy to worry about whether a tune is Scottish or Irish. Thousands of people and tunes have moved back and forth between the two countries. If you are going to delete Father John MacMillan of Barra from this database because it is Scottish, then we should probably delete Rakish Paddy, Lord Gordon, Lord MacDonald, the Graf Spee, and thousands of other reels because they might also be Scottish. While we're at it, we should delete all the polkas and hornpipes as well, as they were not originally Irish anyway. Also, banning banjo players, box players, guitarists, zouk players, harmonica players from this site might not be a bad idea as none of those are "Irish" instruments.
It also become normal and socially acceptable practice on this site to add Scottish, Welsh, English, and even the odd Galician tune.
Haha, Ali. Obviously. And the bagpipes as well. That's me banned from the site. Leaves us the bodhran players, as I am sure everywhere in the world, including Ireland, early humans figured you could make noise by pounding two rocks together.
"If this site is dedicated to traditional Irish music why does it have so much Scottish music on it "
As I've commented before, there is nothing in the guidelines to suggest that this is or should be an exclusively Irish Music site.
All Jeremy says is
"The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes."
Presumably, his own background is playing Irish tunes but I'm sure he's well aware that it's not simple as that. Otherwise, he would have emphasised the "Irish" aspect much more strongly. Also, he's never ever complained about tunes from other countries and cultures in all these years.
"Father John Macmillan of Barra,a Strathspey?"
There's no category on the site for marches. So, it has to be listed under another type of tune with the same time signature.
Likewise, there is no facility to submit a tune as a "slow air".
However, whoever submits a tune should make this clear in the comments.
"thesession.org is run by the Irish Mafia"
Sometimes, I feel that many people on this site adopt a very "narrow" view about Irish music and what should be played in a session. Also, what might be acceptable practices therein.
While I don't approve of a free for all, there has to be some give and take here and there depending on the circumstances and location.
Interestingly, this isn't something I've experienced with Irish people themselves and certainly not in Ireland. In fact, such attitudes are more likely to occur the further away you are from "The Ould Country.
So, "Irish ..tune playing.. Mafia" might be a better description.
The question could have been worse I suppose. It could have been "Why isn't this site done in the Irish Language' As for the original question. I agree with Silver Spear. I don't think I ever came across an Irish Traditional player who didn't play a scots tune at one time or another, and any Scottish players I've come across (and I met a few in my day) always had some Irish tunes in their repertoire. So whats it to be? The Maids of Ardagh as a Kerry Polka or The Liberton Pipe Band as a good Scottish 4/4 march. The term 'Inexplicably linked' comes to mind when discussing the two styles of music.
"Until 1877 all Ireland had was Country music and some early Daniel O'Donnell albums."
That's right...and there's a statue of Daniel O'Donnell in the square at Ennis to prove it! So there.
"Interestingly, this isn't something I've experienced with Irish people themselves and certainly not in Ireland. In fact, such attitudes are more likely to occur the further away you are from "The Ould Country."
That's an interesting point. It may be that the further away you are from Ireland, the more effort is required to keep the music true to form.
I'm sure it's not much of a concern in Ireland where everyone knows very well what the music is and how it is played, but people who didn't grow up with the music have to be educated about what it is. Otherwise people end up playing "Celtic" music on trumpet and the like.
There needs to be some give-and-take, it's entertainment after all and people shouldn't take things so seriously that they can't enjoy themselves. But the purists serve a purpose, someone has to speak up for what the music is or isn't in order to maintain its identity in foreign cultures.
The purists do serve a purpose, sometimes. Much of the time their work seems so joyless, derisive, and downright coersive. These are the "Irish Mafia." Thankfully the Department Of Justice offers a witness protection program for those of us who want out.
LOL, someone sure went to a lot of trouble to try to write down the ornamentation in those tunes. Looks a mess, which is what happens when you try to write it accurately, and it's not very accurate anyway. I sure hope those trills are intended to be rolls.
This is why generic ornament notations are plenty good enough. Let the musician figure it out instead of trying to write it down.
I think the large, loose collection of popular Irish session tunes is a sort of blended family--you know, "yours, mine, and ours." Many tunes are adopted rather than native-born, but they're all "Irish" now, by general proclamation of the Irish session community.
In the same way, non-Irish people can become "Irish musicians" if they pass the musical "citizenship test" (i.e., learn how to play Irish tunes properly). The player may not be Irish by blood or residence, but the music is--ergo, the player is an "Irish musician." IMHO, YMMV.
Sorry but why are the transcriptions in the Skye Collection a mess? And what makes you think they are not accurate? It is a very respected collection that, being compiled in 1887, predates any of our bumblings around this planet!
You might not choose to ornament the tune the exact way it has been written in the book but taking just a small amount of time out to learn how to actually read music and I am sure you will be able to understand what is written. I certainly can and yet am no genius.
No Cause For Alarm, I know how to read music. And if you think that notation accurately describes how the ornamentation is played, I don't know what to say. It's as accurate as written music can be, but some things can't be written.
I don't think you really understand what I was saying. But in any case, there's no need to be so nasty about it. Please dismount your high horse, unbunch your panties, and have a nice day.
The notation accurately describes how that particular collector chose to notate the tunes. Not everyone is going to play the tunes the same way or ornament in the same places. What I am saying however is that someone with a background and competence in the music that is in the Skye Collection will be able to read the staff notation and accurately reproduce what is written. The idea that you can't accurately notate ornamentation is a nonsense. It is just that, other than in bagpipe collections it is rarely done.
I am not saying the Skye Collection is perfect. I have just been looking through some of the tunes in it in ABC:
and there are occasions when the bars don't balance because of an anacrusis. Nevertheless it is a respected collection of tunes, some of which are very old. What irritated me was your apparent lack of respect for the collection and the time that was put in to collate it.
What is coming next sounds very like conversations I have had with other folk from time to time, but just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean I didn't understand what you were saying. What you were saying was very easy to understand. You were saying that there was an awful lot of ornamentation, trills, etc added into the music and it results in a maze of black dots and instructions which make it hard to read - it makes the page a mess. What is marked down isn't what was played anyway (because of course you were around in 1887 in Scotland to verify that fact). There is also the inference that the collector comes from outside the tradition and doesn't therefore understand it. He was probably some classical musician on a busman's holiday.
I understood what you were saying. I just found it annoying and disrespectful.
Forest Tucker - Of course Irish music hasn't evolved in a vaccum. I quite agree with you there. Don't worry about me. I was just annoyed by something else.
It's called the Murphia. And it exists. That's only partly tongue in cheek. Not all nationalities would remark on an accent heard in a bar, or suchlike - The Irish here will know the ritual - "How'ye doin' and where're ye from - Oh aye - You'd be Pat's boy so - Sure I'd know ye out of yer Auntie Bridie...."
[Note that in Ireland one is a 'Boy' while one's father is living. My own silver locks notwithstaning, I am thus still a 'Boy']
Anyway, re Scots - 's a continuum. Styles difffer, but the music is very similar. So are the languages. I once translated a Scots Gaidhlig song for a lassie on this site.
With The Session, the Irish were the first to come up with a single forum that encompassed the whole of their nation's trad life - as far as I know.
That made it a considerable centre of gravity to which Scots, English, Welsh and other would-be affiliates have swarmed for knowledge and succour. I think on their home ground, they have to choose between The Judaean People's Front and The People's Front Of Judaea, so to speak - the internet trad scene is more fragmented.
They bring tribute. Scottish music is delivered wholesale - it and Irish music are the big sisters in this world, so to speak, so Scottish music gets in without much ado. Out in the penumbra, from the North Cape to Spain, England included, isolated Sessioners have to make their own weird and subjective decisions about which of their local tunes might get past the Guardians of Irtrad without a body-search.
So the tunes pile up in this crowded and very successful market place. Whether the Irish musos will actually buy them is another matter. But somebody else might.
I had't forgotten the 1st - 25th generation Irish players in the New World and indeed all the others there, but I confined my references to Old Yurp to be brief!
I don't know what I said to wind up the Sean-Nos singers, but as most of them seem to be startlingly attractive women they're welcome at my address.
They can use their knives for cutting the air in my living quarters, which are not at present in an over-salubrious state, especially when I've been living in my hiking socks over several hot days.
"What is coming next sounds very like conversations I have had with other folk from time to time, but just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean I didn't understand what you were saying. What you were saying was very easy to understand. You were saying that there was an awful lot of ornamentation, trills, etc added into the music and it results in a maze of black dots and instructions which make it hard to read - it makes the page a mess. What is marked down isn't what was played anyway (because of course you were around in 1887 in Scotland to verify that fact). There is also the inference that the collector comes from outside the tradition and doesn't therefore understand it. He was probably some classical musician on a busman's holiday."
Completely, 100%, wrong. All I was doing was making an observation about the futility of trying to literally transcribe the music. And I firmly believe that it is impossible to write the music down literally, it has to be written approximately and interpreted by the musician.
I have a classical background. I know how to sight-read music. And I know that those tunes aren't literally played exactly like that, the way a person who has never heard it would sight-read it.
This wasn't meant as a slight to that particular book, I had just never seen anyone go to such great lengths to literally write down tunes, and I made an observation on how futile it seems to me. But since it predates recording, there's a reason for it to attempt the impossible.
All that stuff you wrote came from you, that's not what I wrote at all. It's just what you thought I wrote, and I don't agree with it at all.
Doesn't a classical orchestra also have some leeway in how it interprets a piece of music? I realise that the music is more proscribed than in traditional music but nonetheless there are surely still interpretations that can be made depending on the exact orchestration and how the conductor directs the music?
Whilst I am not expecting a classical violinist to be able to pick up The Skye Collection, or indeed any collection and play the tunes from the music exactly as they should be played someone with a knowledge of the music should be able to follow it and know how what is transcribed should be played.
The tunes that are in the collection will be played differently by different musicians from different parts of Scotland. Each will put their own interpretation on it. Ultimately however The Skye Collection is the interpretation of Keith Norman Macdonald, as is the Gesto Collection and a snapshot in time. They are both collections that have been drawn on heavily by traditional musicians in Scotland and Cape Breton in particular and they have helped a number of the tunes survive and be rediscovered. I have no fears that if a good Scottish traditional musician was to "plunder" the Collection for a new tune that they would be able to play the tune with authenticity.
If you think that these collections are heavily ornamented you should see piping scores eg:
You may of course already be familiar with this and, if so, I apologise.
Anyway I am really not wanting a row over this. You said it looked a mess. In fact you "laughed out loud" about it. If I misinterpreted that as a lack of respect for Mr Macdonald then I apologise. Goodness knows how I got that one wrong.
Either way I disagree that it is a mess. I find it quite readable. What I have difficulty reading is sheet music that has had numbers and letters scrawled all over it for those who can't read music. I always hated getting them in classes as that was a genuine mess that drew your eyes away from what was being written. That is a whole other discussion though.
"If you are going to delete Father John MacMillan of Barra from this database because it is Scottish, then we should probably delete Rakish Paddy, Lord Gordon, Lord MacDonald, the Graf Spee, and thousands of other reels because they might also be Scottish. While we're at it, we should delete all the polkas and hornpipes as well, as they were not originally Irish anyway. Also, banning banjo players, box players, guitarists, zouk players, harmonica players from this site might not be a bad idea as none of those are "Irish" instruments."
Don't forget all the albums and artists you would have to ban... Alasdair Fraiser, Natalie McMaster, (all the scottish or Canadian fiddlers) all celtic rock bands as they are not "Traditional," all the bagpipers, any bands not using "Traditional" instruments (no guitar, zouks, squeeze boxes, harmonicas, bagpipes, drum sets, foreign drums, or banjos)
and any people from different countries playing ITM.
Me dear ould dad was proud of his scottishicity and would often do the "Irish?, well you know what they're like don't ya?" line
Later the same night he would sing (with a fine voice) every Irish song in the book.
I am still confused
Marklar - "All I was doing was making an observation about the futility of trying to literally transcribe the music. And I firmly believe that it is impossible to write the music down literally, it has to be written approximately and interpreted by the musician.
I have a classical background. I know how to sight-read music. And I know that those tunes aren't literally played exactly like that, the way a person who has never heard it would sight-read it."
Sorry but could not disagree more. Certainly someone new to the style would be unlikely to get the jist of the tune from the book but that is a huge generalism. The Skye, Atholl, Gunn, and other such collections have played a vital roll in preserving tunes that are hundreds of years only. Having always lived in Skye and played and heard there type of tunes most of my life I'm quite confident that me and people like me can play these tunes with at least some authenticity.
Though in general dots are not the ideal way to learn tunes that in NOT a cut and dried rule. For example, the Gunn Collection of pipe music from the middle 1800's is a fascinating insight into a style of piping ornamentation from that period that would likely have been lost if it relied entirly on preserving the tunes by ear.
I think that one of the biggest differences between Irish and Scottish musics, the relative fluidity of Irish compared to the relative rigidity of Scottish, has come about because of the much older tradition in Scotland of writing tunes down. I'm making no judgement here, I in no way think Irish music is better than Sottish music. Just making an observation.
Certainly a lot of truth in that Llig though the instrumentation probably plays a major part in that too. In general I think it would be fair to say that Scottish music has become more fluid in style over the last few years. Probably partly or mainly through all the new medias softening out regional styles but also because most Scottish players now play both by ear and notation. I think it's interesting to note that what I personaly consider to be the most fluid of Scottish music, Port a beul, (mouth music, often sung jigs and reels), gaelic airs and piobaireachd are mainly passed on by ear.
Hmm, yes. And though I do like the extra fluidity in scottish music of late, I ponder its legitemacy if it's at the expense of the loss of regional styles.
And maybe the instrumentation of scottish pipes does play apart, but you can't say that of the fiddle.
But what could be done about it? Other than stopping listening to outside influences and only ever learning from then older generation from your own particular area I can't see a way it can be stopped. I actually think that sessions are partly responsible for the blurring of the edges of older regional styles.
Nothing of course. And nor would I want to do anything about it. The music does what it does, you can't be a protectionist about it. And large sessions are certainly responsible for blurring boundairies and rounding the edges off music. Small sessions, on the other hand, can be great places to learn style ... to sharpen edges.
Huh? Posted on August 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Huh? # Posted on August 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
"One word of caution may here be given against the tendency that exists at the present day to play this class of music a great deal too fast.
Some are possessed of the idea that, in order to dance a Highland reel well, one must jump and shout like a maniac.
It is only on very festive occasions that this sort of capering should be tolerated ; in the beginning it was not so.
The present writer well remembers the style of dancing of the older inhabitants of Skye thirty years ago, and he is bound to say that it was then different from what one sees nowadays in a public ballroom. It was then always graceful and spirited, without one-tenth of the shouting that is now heard; and as to the time of the music, performers would have considered it an insult to be asked to play faster than the proper time. The strathspey, especially, should be played with grace and in measured time, giving the dancer an opportunity of moving his limbs gracefully. When this is not done, the thing degenerates into the railway- speed performance of a clog dance in a pantomime, and to a stranger seems most ludicrous; while the music itself sounds as a regular jumble of the same note repeated in different strains. In recording these truths, it must be remembered, however, that no other music can touch the human heart with greater effect than a Scotch reel; and so long as human beings indulge in the innocent amusement of dancing, this class of music will always hold its own. If the Collection of our best tunes which has here been brought together should help to increase the popular taste for such an inspiriting pastime, the Compiler will consider himself amply repaid for his trouble."
Irish Music?
Irish Music?
If this site is dedicated to traditional Irish music why does it have so much Scottish music on it e.g. Father John Macmillan of Barra,a Strathspey? Barra is an island in the Outer Hebrides,off the west coast of Scotland and Strathspey is an area in the Grampian Mountains in the North East of Scotland. Is this yet another example of the Irish Mafia in action? The Irish aren't the only Celts you know!!!
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by pictishbeastie
Re: Irish Music?
Pass the popcorn. This ought to be good.
Father John MacMillan of Barra isn't a strathspey -- it is a 2/4 march.
My two cents -- and not everyone agrees with me -- is that Irish music and Scottish music are so closely related that it is a waste of time and energy to worry about whether a tune is Scottish or Irish. Thousands of people and tunes have moved back and forth between the two countries. If you are going to delete Father John MacMillan of Barra from this database because it is Scottish, then we should probably delete Rakish Paddy, Lord Gordon, Lord MacDonald, the Graf Spee, and thousands of other reels because they might also be Scottish. While we're at it, we should delete all the polkas and hornpipes as well, as they were not originally Irish anyway. Also, banning banjo players, box players, guitarists, zouk players, harmonica players from this site might not be a bad idea as none of those are "Irish" instruments.
It also become normal and socially acceptable practice on this site to add Scottish, Welsh, English, and even the odd Galician tune.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Irish Music?
I do, however, quite like the implication that thesession.org is run by the Irish Mafia.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Irish Music?
We gave the Irish all the music didn't you know? Until 1877 all Ireland had was Country music and some early Daniel O'Donnell albums.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
Haha, Ali. Obviously.
And the bagpipes as well. That's me banned from the site. Leaves us the bodhran players, as I am sure everywhere in the world, including Ireland, early humans figured you could make noise by pounding two rocks together.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Irish Music?
"If this site is dedicated to traditional Irish music why does it have so much Scottish music on it "
As I've commented before, there is nothing in the guidelines to suggest that this is or should be an exclusively Irish Music site.
All Jeremy says is
"The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes."
Presumably, his own background is playing Irish tunes but I'm sure he's well aware that it's not simple as that. Otherwise, he would have emphasised the "Irish" aspect much more strongly. Also, he's never ever complained about tunes from other countries and cultures in all these years.
"Father John Macmillan of Barra,a Strathspey?"
There's no category on the site for marches. So, it has to be listed under another type of tune with the same time signature.
Likewise, there is no facility to submit a tune as a "slow air".
However, whoever submits a tune should make this clear in the comments.
"thesession.org is run by the Irish Mafia"
Sometimes, I feel that many people on this site adopt a very "narrow" view about Irish music and what should be played in a session. Also, what might be acceptable practices therein.
While I don't approve of a free for all, there has to be some give and take here and there depending on the circumstances and location.
Interestingly, this isn't something I've experienced with Irish people themselves and certainly not in Ireland. In fact, such attitudes are more likely to occur the further away you are from "The Ould Country.
So, "Irish ..tune playing.. Mafia" might be a better description.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Irish Music?
The question could have been worse I suppose. It could have been "Why isn't this site done in the Irish Language' As for the original question. I agree with Silver Spear. I don't think I ever came across an Irish Traditional player who didn't play a scots tune at one time or another, and any Scottish players I've come across (and I met a few in my day) always had some Irish tunes in their repertoire. So whats it to be? The Maids of Ardagh as a Kerry Polka or The Liberton Pipe Band as a good Scottish 4/4 march. The term 'Inexplicably linked' comes to mind when discussing the two styles of music.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Irish Music?
Having just explained the linked, I presume you mean "inextricably" linked!
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Irish Music?
"Until 1877 all Ireland had was Country music and some early Daniel O'Donnell albums."
That's right...and there's a statue of Daniel O'Donnell in the square at Ennis to prove it! So there.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Irish Music?
"Interestingly, this isn't something I've experienced with Irish people themselves and certainly not in Ireland. In fact, such attitudes are more likely to occur the further away you are from "The Ould Country."
That's an interesting point. It may be that the further away you are from Ireland, the more effort is required to keep the music true to form.
I'm sure it's not much of a concern in Ireland where everyone knows very well what the music is and how it is played, but people who didn't grow up with the music have to be educated about what it is. Otherwise people end up playing "Celtic" music on trumpet and the like.
There needs to be some give-and-take, it's entertainment after all and people shouldn't take things so seriously that they can't enjoy themselves. But the purists serve a purpose, someone has to speak up for what the music is or isn't in order to maintain its identity in foreign cultures.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Marklar
Re: Irish Music?
Presume away, young Sir !
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Irish Music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83Xs91MnaQU
like this you mean
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by gam
Re: Irish Music?
The purists do serve a purpose, sometimes. Much of the time their work seems so joyless, derisive, and downright coersive. These are the "Irish Mafia." Thankfully the Department Of Justice offers a witness protection program for those of us who want out.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Scottish Music?
a few more tunes . . .
"The Skye collection of the best reels & strathspeys extant"
By Keith Norman Macdonald
http://books.google.com/books?id=onkQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&dq=norman+macdonald+compositions&source=bl&ots=e4Ng9nzWoI&sig=JqpVhRvuP5WVR5aTjl2Ddmh992M&hl=en&ei=ORZ_SuqnOZSusgPVsoDvCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=&f=false
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish Music?
LOL, someone sure went to a lot of trouble to try to write down the ornamentation in those tunes. Looks a mess, which is what happens when you try to write it accurately, and it's not very accurate anyway. I sure hope those trills are intended to be rolls.
This is why generic ornament notations are plenty good enough. Let the musician figure it out instead of trying to write it down.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Marklar
Re: Irish Music?
I think the large, loose collection of popular Irish session tunes is a sort of blended family--you know, "yours, mine, and ours." Many tunes are adopted rather than native-born, but they're all "Irish" now, by general proclamation of the Irish session community.
In the same way, non-Irish people can become "Irish musicians" if they pass the musical "citizenship test" (i.e., learn how to play Irish tunes properly). The player may not be Irish by blood or residence, but the music is--ergo, the player is an "Irish musician." IMHO, YMMV.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Irish Music?
Sorry but why are the transcriptions in the Skye Collection a mess? And what makes you think they are not accurate? It is a very respected collection that, being compiled in 1887, predates any of our bumblings around this planet!
You might not choose to ornament the tune the exact way it has been written in the book but taking just a small amount of time out to learn how to actually read music and I am sure you will be able to understand what is written. I certainly can and yet am no genius.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
Oh and just because a tune is "adopted" and played in Irish sessions doesn't suddenly make it an Irish tune.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
Would a pictish troll be called a brownie?
I'm surprised that poeple bothered to reply to this:
Be off with you now & get your badgies sewn onto your uniform.
- Chris
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Irish Music?
As a member of the Irish Mafia I think some of youse should be very very afraid. Watch you pockets and cases!
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by The Rollicking Boy
Re: Irish Music?
NCFA, I just meant that Irish music did not (and does not) evolve in a vacuum. How else do you explain Irish polkas and mazurkas?
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Irish Music?
No Cause For Alarm, I know how to read music. And if you think that notation accurately describes how the ornamentation is played, I don't know what to say. It's as accurate as written music can be, but some things can't be written.
I don't think you really understand what I was saying. But in any case, there's no need to be so nasty about it. Please dismount your high horse, unbunch your panties, and have a nice day.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Marklar
Re: Irish Music?
I think the trills are intended to be similar to how they are played on bagpipes.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish Music?
The notation accurately describes how that particular collector chose to notate the tunes. Not everyone is going to play the tunes the same way or ornament in the same places. What I am saying however is that someone with a background and competence in the music that is in the Skye Collection will be able to read the staff notation and accurately reproduce what is written. The idea that you can't accurately notate ornamentation is a nonsense. It is just that, other than in bagpipe collections it is rarely done.
I am not saying the Skye Collection is perfect. I have just been looking through some of the tunes in it in ABC:
http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/book/skye/
and there are occasions when the bars don't balance because of an anacrusis. Nevertheless it is a respected collection of tunes, some of which are very old. What irritated me was your apparent lack of respect for the collection and the time that was put in to collate it.
What is coming next sounds very like conversations I have had with other folk from time to time, but just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean I didn't understand what you were saying. What you were saying was very easy to understand. You were saying that there was an awful lot of ornamentation, trills, etc added into the music and it results in a maze of black dots and instructions which make it hard to read - it makes the page a mess. What is marked down isn't what was played anyway (because of course you were around in 1887 in Scotland to verify that fact). There is also the inference that the collector comes from outside the tradition and doesn't therefore understand it. He was probably some classical musician on a busman's holiday.
I understood what you were saying. I just found it annoying and disrespectful.
Forest Tucker - Of course Irish music hasn't evolved in a vaccum. I quite agree with you there. Don't worry about me. I was just annoyed by something else.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
It's called the Murphia. And it exists. That's only partly tongue in cheek. Not all nationalities would remark on an accent heard in a bar, or suchlike - The Irish here will know the ritual - "How'ye doin' and where're ye from - Oh aye - You'd be Pat's boy so - Sure I'd know ye out of yer Auntie Bridie...."
[Note that in Ireland one is a 'Boy' while one's father is living. My own silver locks notwithstaning, I am thus still a 'Boy']
Anyway, re Scots - 's a continuum. Styles difffer, but the music is very similar. So are the languages. I once translated a Scots Gaidhlig song for a lassie on this site.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Irish Music?
With The Session, the Irish were the first to come up with a single forum that encompassed the whole of their nation's trad life - as far as I know.
That made it a considerable centre of gravity to which Scots, English, Welsh and other would-be affiliates have swarmed for knowledge and succour. I think on their home ground, they have to choose between The Judaean People's Front and The People's Front Of Judaea, so to speak - the internet trad scene is more fragmented.
They bring tribute. Scottish music is delivered wholesale - it and Irish music are the big sisters in this world, so to speak, so Scottish music gets in without much ado. Out in the penumbra, from the North Cape to Spain, England included, isolated Sessioners have to make their own weird and subjective decisions about which of their local tunes might get past the Guardians of Irtrad without a body-search.
So the tunes pile up in this crowded and very successful market place. Whether the Irish musos will actually buy them is another matter. But somebody else might.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by nicholas
~
cheers from the fragmented Irish players in the U.S.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish Music?
Very good Nicholas. I chuckled at that.
Right now however there are are Sean-Nos singers sharpening their blades and wondering on your home address!
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
I had't forgotten the 1st - 25th generation Irish players in the New World and indeed all the others there, but I confined my references to Old Yurp to be brief!
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Irish Music?
Anyone who really thinks this crowded market place is successful is severely under resourced.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Irish Music?
& you are consistent llig.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Irish Music?
Re: so ...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21295/comments#comment443752
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Hijacking an otherwise fine Discussion
It's times like this I go tripping through the archives to read what may have been hashed over earlier . . .
Re: Is Traditional Music becoming Progressive?
August 29th 2003
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2055/comments#comment37160
. . . before it is all lost again.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish Music?
I don't know what I said to wind up the Sean-Nos singers, but as most of them seem to be startlingly attractive women they're welcome at my address.
They can use their knives for cutting the air in my living quarters, which are not at present in an over-salubrious state, especially when I've been living in my hiking socks over several hot days.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Irish Music?
"With The Session, the Irish were the first to come up with a single forum that encompassed the whole of their nation's trad life - as far as I know"
The forum is for the dance music - the fast stuff without any lyrics. Not the slow airs or the songs.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
All the same, No Cause For Alarm, I did enjoy reading the Preface to the "Skye Collection" regarding fast stuff.
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish Music?
Huh?
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
"What is coming next sounds very like conversations I have had with other folk from time to time, but just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean I didn't understand what you were saying. What you were saying was very easy to understand. You were saying that there was an awful lot of ornamentation, trills, etc added into the music and it results in a maze of black dots and instructions which make it hard to read - it makes the page a mess. What is marked down isn't what was played anyway (because of course you were around in 1887 in Scotland to verify that fact). There is also the inference that the collector comes from outside the tradition and doesn't therefore understand it. He was probably some classical musician on a busman's holiday."
Completely, 100%, wrong. All I was doing was making an observation about the futility of trying to literally transcribe the music. And I firmly believe that it is impossible to write the music down literally, it has to be written approximately and interpreted by the musician.
I have a classical background. I know how to sight-read music. And I know that those tunes aren't literally played exactly like that, the way a person who has never heard it would sight-read it.
This wasn't meant as a slight to that particular book, I had just never seen anyone go to such great lengths to literally write down tunes, and I made an observation on how futile it seems to me. But since it predates recording, there's a reason for it to attempt the impossible.
All that stuff you wrote came from you, that's not what I wrote at all. It's just what you thought I wrote, and I don't agree with it at all.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Marklar
Re: Irish Music?
Doesn't a classical orchestra also have some leeway in how it interprets a piece of music? I realise that the music is more proscribed than in traditional music but nonetheless there are surely still interpretations that can be made depending on the exact orchestration and how the conductor directs the music?
Whilst I am not expecting a classical violinist to be able to pick up The Skye Collection, or indeed any collection and play the tunes from the music exactly as they should be played someone with a knowledge of the music should be able to follow it and know how what is transcribed should be played.
The tunes that are in the collection will be played differently by different musicians from different parts of Scotland. Each will put their own interpretation on it. Ultimately however The Skye Collection is the interpretation of Keith Norman Macdonald, as is the Gesto Collection and a snapshot in time. They are both collections that have been drawn on heavily by traditional musicians in Scotland and Cape Breton in particular and they have helped a number of the tunes survive and be rediscovered. I have no fears that if a good Scottish traditional musician was to "plunder" the Collection for a new tune that they would be able to play the tune with authenticity.
If you think that these collections are heavily ornamented you should see piping scores eg:
http://cityofoaks2.home.netcom.com/tunes/CampbellsAreComing.gif
You may of course already be familiar with this and, if so, I apologise.
Anyway I am really not wanting a row over this. You said it looked a mess. In fact you "laughed out loud" about it. If I misinterpreted that as a lack of respect for Mr Macdonald then I apologise. Goodness knows how I got that one wrong.
Either way I disagree that it is a mess. I find it quite readable. What I have difficulty reading is sheet music that has had numbers and letters scrawled all over it for those who can't read music. I always hated getting them in classes as that was a genuine mess that drew your eyes away from what was being written. That is a whole other discussion though.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish Music?
"If you are going to delete Father John MacMillan of Barra from this database because it is Scottish, then we should probably delete Rakish Paddy, Lord Gordon, Lord MacDonald, the Graf Spee, and thousands of other reels because they might also be Scottish. While we're at it, we should delete all the polkas and hornpipes as well, as they were not originally Irish anyway. Also, banning banjo players, box players, guitarists, zouk players, harmonica players from this site might not be a bad idea as none of those are "Irish" instruments."
Don't forget all the albums and artists you would have to ban... Alasdair Fraiser, Natalie McMaster, (all the scottish or Canadian fiddlers) all celtic rock bands as they are not "Traditional," all the bagpipers, any bands not using "Traditional" instruments (no guitar, zouks, squeeze boxes, harmonicas, bagpipes, drum sets, foreign drums, or banjos)
and any people from different countries playing ITM.
So there!!!
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by scordion
Re: Irish Music?
@No Cause For Alarm:
OK, the penny's dropped!
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Irish Music?
Me dear ould dad was proud of his scottishicity and would often do the "Irish?, well you know what they're like don't ya?" line
Later the same night he would sing (with a fine voice) every Irish song in the book.
I am still confused
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Irish Music?
Yes, pictish - it's another example of the Irish Mafia in action. Got a problem with it?
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Irish Music?
Marklar - "All I was doing was making an observation about the futility of trying to literally transcribe the music. And I firmly believe that it is impossible to write the music down literally, it has to be written approximately and interpreted by the musician.
I have a classical background. I know how to sight-read music. And I know that those tunes aren't literally played exactly like that, the way a person who has never heard it would sight-read it."
Sorry but could not disagree more. Certainly someone new to the style would be unlikely to get the jist of the tune from the book but that is a huge generalism. The Skye, Atholl, Gunn, and other such collections have played a vital roll in preserving tunes that are hundreds of years only. Having always lived in Skye and played and heard there type of tunes most of my life I'm quite confident that me and people like me can play these tunes with at least some authenticity.
Though in general dots are not the ideal way to learn tunes that in NOT a cut and dried rule. For example, the Gunn Collection of pipe music from the middle 1800's is a fascinating insight into a style of piping ornamentation from that period that would likely have been lost if it relied entirly on preserving the tunes by ear.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by bogman
Re: Irish Music?
I think that one of the biggest differences between Irish and Scottish musics, the relative fluidity of Irish compared to the relative rigidity of Scottish, has come about because of the much older tradition in Scotland of writing tunes down. I'm making no judgement here, I in no way think Irish music is better than Sottish music. Just making an observation.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by ...
Re: Irish Music?
Certainly a lot of truth in that Llig though the instrumentation probably plays a major part in that too. In general I think it would be fair to say that Scottish music has become more fluid in style over the last few years. Probably partly or mainly through all the new medias softening out regional styles but also because most Scottish players now play both by ear and notation. I think it's interesting to note that what I personaly consider to be the most fluid of Scottish music, Port a beul, (mouth music, often sung jigs and reels), gaelic airs and piobaireachd are mainly passed on by ear.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by bogman
Re: Irish Music?
Hmm, yes. And though I do like the extra fluidity in scottish music of late, I ponder its legitemacy if it's at the expense of the loss of regional styles.
And maybe the instrumentation of scottish pipes does play apart, but you can't say that of the fiddle.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by ...
Re: Irish Music?
But what could be done about it? Other than stopping listening to outside influences and only ever learning from then older generation from your own particular area I can't see a way it can be stopped. I actually think that sessions are partly responsible for the blurring of the edges of older regional styles.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by bogman
Re: Irish Music?
Nothing of course. And nor would I want to do anything about it. The music does what it does, you can't be a protectionist about it. And large sessions are certainly responsible for blurring boundairies and rounding the edges off music. Small sessions, on the other hand, can be great places to learn style ... to sharpen edges.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by ...
Huh? Posted on August 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Huh? # Posted on August 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
"One word of caution may here be given against the tendency that exists at the present day to play this class of music a great deal too fast.
Some are possessed of the idea that, in order to dance a Highland reel well, one must jump and shout like a maniac.
It is only on very festive occasions that this sort of capering should be tolerated ; in the beginning it was not so.
The present writer well remembers the style of dancing of the older inhabitants of Skye thirty years ago, and he is bound to say that it was then different from what one sees nowadays in a public ballroom. It was then always graceful and spirited, without one-tenth of the shouting that is now heard; and as to the time of the music, performers would have considered it an insult to be asked to play faster than the proper time. The strathspey, especially, should be played with grace and in measured time, giving the dancer an opportunity of moving his limbs gracefully. When this is not done, the thing degenerates into the railway- speed performance of a clog dance in a pantomime, and to a stranger seems most ludicrous; while the music itself sounds as a regular jumble of the same note repeated in different strains. In recording these truths, it must be remembered, however, that no other music can touch the human heart with greater effect than a Scotch reel; and so long as human beings indulge in the innocent amusement of dancing, this class of music will always hold its own. If the Collection of our best tunes which has here been brought together should help to increase the popular taste for such an inspiriting pastime, the Compiler will consider himself amply repaid for his trouble."
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish Music?
Och the noo.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by mcknowall