Hello Session Folks,
I have a question for those of you who play an instrument that calls for picking picking each note.(Banjo, Mandolin, ect) I myself have just picked up the Banjo and have been running into a few problems. I had a stroke in utero, luckily i beat the 90% chance of being mentally challenged to the point of not being able to function. The problems i do have though are with my right hand and arm. They function, but i have slower motor skills with the arm. I am able to use it but its slow. i was wondering if anyone had any techniques or exercises that they use to help them with their picking speed. Im very determined to be able to do this. I apologize for such a long question, but thank you so much to whoever responds.
You'll find lots of threads on this Nate, and lots of opinions too! The conventional dogma on this is as follows:- For jigs pick in the sequence "down down up, down down up" etc. and for reels "down up down up down up down up" ad infinitum. However as with all rules, it does'nt always work out. I'm a believer in being versatile enough to be able to change on the fly, and the only way to get to that point is actually playing the tunes.
However, in the meantime .....You'll find picking exercises at http//:www.mandolincafe.org
The very best of luck to you, and your determination will pay off in the end. oh and buy an Angelina Carberry cd and absorb her impecable picking.
I'd say work within your abilities and then the rest will follow. Triplets are over-rated, at least according to both John Carty and Gerry O'Connor in the classes I took from them. They both emphasized tone and precision over ornaments. I think that you will find that any teacher will say the same thing and in your case it is probably even more important.
Good technique is ultimately dependent on those factors. Try and find a teacher to help you out and don't be discouraged by the zillion 16 year old pickers who seem to pick it up in three days. The journey is a fun process, especially if you are doing it for the love of the music.
Be very patient. It can take a long time to develop decent picking speed. Try to play as cleanly and rhythmically as you can within your current speed limit. When you feel firmly in control, then you can push a little faster. Get comfortable with each speed level before you take the next increment.
For picking patterns, there are several approaches. Try everybody's advice. Eventually, you'll figure out what works for you.
I started a topic specifically on jig picking on mandolincafe, - it turned into quite a lively discussion and some very good players weighed in with advice and suggested exercises.
Hi Nate, I had a stroke at age 32. This isn't the same situation as you but .....I Completely blew out my left hand. Couldn'y even play a simple two note bass patern. This after a lifetime of playing music. The key is to play all the time. What ever got wiped out in the stroke will be 're learned,' so to speak, by another part of the brain. So repetition is key in overcomming a stroke related disability. It may take you longer than some but who cares. The key is to have fun doing it.
Get a teacher if possible, the one on one feedback is worth a million video and book lessons, especially when you are trying to form new habits and form them correctly. I had trouble strumming quickly, my teacher said I was strumming too much with my wrist, to strum more from the elbow and forearm, where tiny movements in the arm can create a lot of movement from the pick. Once I had a good posture and technique, I used a metronome to pace myself, slowly over weeks speeding up how quickly I strummed.
This worked for me, and I am sure there are many other valid approaches.
Best of luck, and enjoy your playing!
As for picking patterns, I've never given it a thought so I just went and played a few jigs and found that I vary the pattern depending on the tune I'm playing. For me there's no set pattern. Depends on the location of the next note in the tune or the feel of the song.
You could also try using hammer ons and pull offs to help shore up your speed. If your left hand is o.k this could help. Use what you have. I use an alternate tuning because my problem is the right hand.
On the subject of jig picking I would definitely say
Down/Up/Down Down/Up/Down. This gives you two groups of three quavers, the correct form for jigs.
I discuss this in my podcasts, you can listen for free:
http://www.irishguitarpod.com/content/book-1-lessons-1-18, in particular the podcast of "The Blackthorn Stick"
Play slowly and accurately, and very gradually build up speed.And try and do at least an hour of solid practice every day.
Two things that might help: try the bodhran (no it's not a wind-up). The tipper replicates the action of the pick (DUD, etc) and will strengthen your fingers, wrist and arm. Also whenever you are not playing, and assuming you are not using that hand for anything else (like frying eggs), practise picking against your chest. That is, from the normal picking position, keep your elbow still and move your hand up to your chest. You can practise away, and it looks no more idiotic than someone polishing his nails.
pick DUDUDU/DUDUDU/ -- for jigs , DUDUDUDU/ DUDUDUDU/ for reels and if you put a triplet in add another triplet soon to get you back into playing the first beat of the bar on the downstroke. if you adopt this it gives you the flexibility of starting triplets both on the upstroke and the downstroke. This is what I was taught.
I forgot to mention that if a second triplet doesn't fit into the rhythm /flow of the tune then just play a double downstroke and you'll be back in sinc with the rhythm. Enda however believes in commencing all his triplets on the downstroke . I suggest you experiment .At the end of the day you'll decide what suits best. Best of luck --keep practicing every day!!!
Hooray for Enda! Horray! you hear that everybody, listen up to Enda now. This makes me so happy
I never gave much thought to how I played until I got sucked into doing some teaching. One of the things I realised was that all my triplets pretty much start on a downstroke, or at least all the ones I can play when I slow down and think about it.
It doesn't worry me too much as I'm a great believer in playing naturally rather than obsessing about technical possibilities. Glad to see someone state it as a general principle though. (Although I think I recall the equally revered Hanrahan talking about the ability to start triplets anywhere ont he up or down stroke).
gam's post reminds me of the story I heard about a summer school where a class of fiddle beginners was sent along the corridor for an hour's lesson with the bodhran tutor to loosen up their bowing. Apparently it worked.
Nate, have you talked to your medical advisor about playing a picked instrument? My guess is that the advisor would be enthusiastic about the possible therapeutic effects.
An equipment suggestion: I'd try out a range of pick thicknesses to see what works for you—I've found that can make a huge difference.
To me, a thinner pick (though preferred by many) requires you to "dip" too deeply into the string. But with a thick, beveled-edge/bull-nosed pick (Wegen is one brand that makes these) you needn't dip so deeply, and can therefore move more quickly from string to string.
I actually do play the bodhran. percussion was something i found i didn't have to worry as much about my disability ( i didn't have to be very quick with my right hand to do drum rolls)
So having played the bodhran for a bit under a year i feel very comfortable with the patterns of jigs reels ect ect. I think that im just gonna have to practice as much as possible and build up that section of my brain.
I've been having problems keeping my strumming hand anchored down to the banjo. It just naturally bends at the wrist, which gets frustrating because i don't have as much control. when my mind wonders from my form with my right hand to actually playing the tune, my right hand finds its way arched from the the instrument again.
It's one thing to talk about speed, but the critical thing from my point of view is control - if you have control, you can get speed, but speed without control is just useless. With that in mind, here are some things to think about:
-Whatever exercises you try, make sure that you never play them fast, meaning faster than you can control. Paradoxically, that speed will increase faster if you hold back the tempo than if you push it.
-Thinking about dynamics, phrasing, and tone production will give you speed, because those are ways to train your pick control, which is essential for speed. Training for speed will ruin your tone, dynamics, and phrasing, because it's about forgetting that control to move forward one notch on your metronome.
-Practice should always be an intentional act. When you sit down to practice, you should have a definite idea of what you're going to work on, how you're going to go about it, and how you know when to stop.
-Practice builds on what you did yesterday. A little bit every day gets you there. Leave it for the weekend, and you'll be spinning your wheels for a long time.
If you keep that in mind, any practice you do will get you somewhere, even if it's some picking pattern nonsense, not that I have an opinion on picking patterns.
Picking Technique
Picking Technique
Hello Session Folks,
I have a question for those of you who play an instrument that calls for picking picking each note.(Banjo, Mandolin, ect) I myself have just picked up the Banjo and have been running into a few problems. I had a stroke in utero, luckily i beat the 90% chance of being mentally challenged to the point of not being able to function. The problems i do have though are with my right hand and arm. They function, but i have slower motor skills with the arm. I am able to use it but its slow. i was wondering if anyone had any techniques or exercises that they use to help them with their picking speed. Im very determined to be able to do this. I apologize for such a long question, but thank you so much to whoever responds.
-enjoy each breath
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by n a t e
Re: Picking Technique
You'll find lots of threads on this Nate, and lots of opinions too! The conventional dogma on this is as follows:- For jigs pick in the sequence "down down up, down down up" etc. and for reels "down up down up down up down up" ad infinitum. However as with all rules, it does'nt always work out. I'm a believer in being versatile enough to be able to change on the fly, and the only way to get to that point is actually playing the tunes.
However, in the meantime .....You'll find picking exercises at http//:www.mandolincafe.org
The very best of luck to you, and your determination will pay off in the end. oh and buy an Angelina Carberry cd and absorb her impecable picking.
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Backer
Re: Picking Technique
so sorry Nate, should be http://www.mandolincafe.com
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Backer
Re: Picking Technique
Hmm, I thought DUD DUD was the conventional picking pattern for jigs.
Get the Enda Scahill tutor Nate, he covers picking patterns in it etc.
Don't worry about speed for now, it's early days yet...
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by triplet upstairs
Re: Picking Technique
Nate,
I'd say work within your abilities and then the rest will follow. Triplets are over-rated, at least according to both John Carty and Gerry O'Connor in the classes I took from them. They both emphasized tone and precision over ornaments. I think that you will find that any teacher will say the same thing and in your case it is probably even more important.
Good technique is ultimately dependent on those factors. Try and find a teacher to help you out and don't be discouraged by the zillion 16 year old pickers who seem to pick it up in three days. The journey is a fun process, especially if you are doing it for the love of the music.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by mikeyes
Re: Picking Technique
Be very patient. It can take a long time to develop decent picking speed. Try to play as cleanly and rhythmically as you can within your current speed limit. When you feel firmly in control, then you can push a little faster. Get comfortable with each speed level before you take the next increment.
For picking patterns, there are several approaches. Try everybody's advice. Eventually, you'll figure out what works for you.
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Picking Technique
Enda Scahill has a nice banjo tutorial and much of it addresses this subject - I found it very helpful. Good luck to you
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Picking Technique
What everyone else said.
I started a topic specifically on jig picking on mandolincafe, - it turned into quite a lively discussion and some very good players weighed in with advice and suggested exercises.
Have a look here:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33865
the Enda Scahill book is quite good for exercises too, and the sound files on the accompanying CDs are v-e-r-y s-l-o-w for playing along with
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Bren
Re: Picking Technique
Hi Nate, I had a stroke at age 32. This isn't the same situation as you but .....I Completely blew out my left hand. Couldn'y even play a simple two note bass patern. This after a lifetime of playing music. The key is to play all the time. What ever got wiped out in the stroke will be 're learned,' so to speak, by another part of the brain. So repetition is key in overcomming a stroke related disability. It may take you longer than some but who cares. The key is to have fun doing it.
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by shanty
Re: Picking Technique
Get a teacher if possible, the one on one feedback is worth a million video and book lessons, especially when you are trying to form new habits and form them correctly. I had trouble strumming quickly, my teacher said I was strumming too much with my wrist, to strum more from the elbow and forearm, where tiny movements in the arm can create a lot of movement from the pick. Once I had a good posture and technique, I used a metronome to pace myself, slowly over weeks speeding up how quickly I strummed.
This worked for me, and I am sure there are many other valid approaches.
Best of luck, and enjoy your playing!
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Picking Technique
As for picking patterns, I've never given it a thought so I just went and played a few jigs and found that I vary the pattern depending on the tune I'm playing. For me there's no set pattern. Depends on the location of the next note in the tune or the feel of the song.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by shanty
Re: Picking Technique
Ooops, I was talking strumming, not single note picking, although some of the same principles apply......
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Picking Technique
You could also try using hammer ons and pull offs to help shore up your speed. If your left hand is o.k this could help. Use what you have. I use an alternate tuning because my problem is the right hand.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by shanty
Re: Picking Technique
I think when people say "down, down, up", they mean:
down|DOWN up
as in: D|DUD DUD|DUD
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by Donough
Re: Picking Technique
On the subject of jig picking I would definitely say
Down/Up/Down Down/Up/Down. This gives you two groups of three quavers, the correct form for jigs.
I discuss this in my podcasts, you can listen for free:
http://www.irishguitarpod.com/content/book-1-lessons-1-18, in particular the podcast of "The Blackthorn Stick"
Play slowly and accurately, and very gradually build up speed.And try and do at least an hour of solid practice every day.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Picking Technique
Two things that might help: try the bodhran (no it's not a wind-up). The tipper replicates the action of the pick (DUD, etc) and will strengthen your fingers, wrist and arm. Also whenever you are not playing, and assuming you are not using that hand for anything else (like frying eggs), practise picking against your chest. That is, from the normal picking position, keep your elbow still and move your hand up to your chest. You can practise away, and it looks no more idiotic than someone polishing his nails.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by gam
Re: Picking Technique
pick DUDUDU/DUDUDU/ -- for jigs , DUDUDUDU/ DUDUDUDU/ for reels and if you put a triplet in add another triplet soon to get you back into playing the first beat of the bar on the downstroke. if you adopt this it gives you the flexibility of starting triplets both on the upstroke and the downstroke. This is what I was taught.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by banjoian
Re: Picking Technique
I forgot to mention that if a second triplet doesn't fit into the rhythm /flow of the tune then just play a double downstroke and you'll be back in sinc with the rhythm. Enda however believes in commencing all his triplets on the downstroke . I suggest you experiment .At the end of the day you'll decide what suits best. Best of luck --keep practicing every day!!!
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by banjoian
Re: Picking Technique
Hooray for Enda! Horray! you hear that everybody, listen up to Enda now. This makes me so happy
I never gave much thought to how I played until I got sucked into doing some teaching. One of the things I realised was that all my triplets pretty much start on a downstroke, or at least all the ones I can play when I slow down and think about it.
It doesn't worry me too much as I'm a great believer in playing naturally rather than obsessing about technical possibilities. Glad to see someone state it as a general principle though. (Although I think I recall the equally revered Hanrahan talking about the ability to start triplets anywhere ont he up or down stroke).
- Chris
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Picking Technique
That's revered in equal measure to enda, not to myself....
Although if Mr Hanrahan stuck at it
- Chris
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Picking Technique
That's right, Chris. I'm sure neither of them could hold a candle to you.
Someone here who had lessons with him once told me that KH is an DUD UDU man.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by grego
Re: Picking Technique
gam's post reminds me of the story I heard about a summer school where a class of fiddle beginners was sent along the corridor for an hour's lesson with the bodhran tutor to loosen up their bowing. Apparently it worked.
Nate, have you talked to your medical advisor about playing a picked instrument? My guess is that the advisor would be enthusiastic about the possible therapeutic effects.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Picking Technique
Thanks Greg I didn't realise you'd heard me play.
Hey listen to me: people will be thinking I'm Bliss in disguise next
- Chris
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Picking Technique
An equipment suggestion: I'd try out a range of pick thicknesses to see what works for you—I've found that can make a huge difference.
To me, a thinner pick (though preferred by many) requires you to "dip" too deeply into the string. But with a thick, beveled-edge/bull-nosed pick (Wegen is one brand that makes these) you needn't dip so deeply, and can therefore move more quickly from string to string.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Picking Technique
"I think when people say "down, down, up", they mean:
down|DOWN up
as in: D|DUD DUD|DUD"
yep
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by Backer
Re: Picking Technique
I actually do play the bodhran. percussion was something i found i didn't have to worry as much about my disability ( i didn't have to be very quick with my right hand to do drum rolls)
So having played the bodhran for a bit under a year i feel very comfortable with the patterns of jigs reels ect ect. I think that im just gonna have to practice as much as possible and build up that section of my brain.
I've been having problems keeping my strumming hand anchored down to the banjo. It just naturally bends at the wrist, which gets frustrating because i don't have as much control. when my mind wonders from my form with my right hand to actually playing the tune, my right hand finds its way arched from the the instrument again.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by n a t e
Re: Picking Technique
It's one thing to talk about speed, but the critical thing from my point of view is control - if you have control, you can get speed, but speed without control is just useless. With that in mind, here are some things to think about:
-Whatever exercises you try, make sure that you never play them fast, meaning faster than you can control. Paradoxically, that speed will increase faster if you hold back the tempo than if you push it.
-Thinking about dynamics, phrasing, and tone production will give you speed, because those are ways to train your pick control, which is essential for speed. Training for speed will ruin your tone, dynamics, and phrasing, because it's about forgetting that control to move forward one notch on your metronome.
-Practice should always be an intentional act. When you sit down to practice, you should have a definite idea of what you're going to work on, how you're going to go about it, and how you know when to stop.
-Practice builds on what you did yesterday. A little bit every day gets you there. Leave it for the weekend, and you'll be spinning your wheels for a long time.
If you keep that in mind, any practice you do will get you somewhere, even if it's some picking pattern nonsense, not that I have an opinion on picking patterns.
# Posted on August 7th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky