Hey guys, I'm in an Irish band and am using a very good violin along with "The Band" pickup by Headway (gives a very natural tone, though it picks up the other instruments a little- just in case anyone was wondering). I've recently gotten a small crack in the violin- nothing to worry about too much, I'll get it fixed, but it's got me thinking that I'm using a high quality violin in a much more aggressive environment (stages, shows etc) than it's used to, and I don't want it to get damaged.
So, my question is this: if I were to get a cheap violin (200,300 bucks maybe) and run it through the pickup, would there be a noticeable change in sound quality from my expensive violin? I know some of my tone is lost through the pickup already, so I'm just asking myself whether it's even worth putting my violin through this risk of damage at all. Does anyone have any experience or advice? Thanks!
there's also the question of response, which is inferior in most cheap fiddles. the tone can be jimmied, but if the time it takes you to get a solid note is longer, that will hurt your music no matter how well-mic'ed you are, i think.
. . . but i've often thought of trying that with my old starter fiddle, just for grins.
I recently did that sort of A/B comparison, of my cheap German student fiddle (nice neck, but muted tone) and my handmade modern American fiddle, with both pickup and microphone. Bottom line: No matter I twisted the dials, I could not make the cheap fiddle sound anywhere near as good as the handmade one.
The sound gear was new, "affordable pro quality" I suppose, the pickup was a bridge-slot piezo, and I know a little bit about dialing up sound.
So I'm sticking with the good fiddle for gigs, and being careful with it, (I use a fiddle hanger on a mic stand with a wide tripod base. And I keep an eye on it.)
But maybe you can find a nicer inexpensive fiddle than mine, and will work well enough. And maybe your gigs are rougher than mine. In other words, YMMV.
I'm no expert but here goes.
I've used a well set up cheapo Chinese fiddle in the past as have others I have known.
As for a response, seek it through the sound system.
Depending in where you are playing it wouldn't pay to be too precious about a good fiddle. A drunk might fall on top of it or something.
Do whatever you like though. Are you wealthy?
Me too, on the pickup/preamp. And a Shure SM58 and an AKG pencil-style condenser mic, and combined sound of pickup and with each mic. Over JBL powered speakers.
Now, my beater fiddle really does have an especially strangled tone. I think you could probably find find a better-sounding one in the 300-dollar (US) range, if you looked hard for it. (You might have to spend a bit on getting it set up, though.)
But in my case, the missing frequences were too much. You can work the graphic EQ like crazy, and pile on digital effects--but if a particular sound frequency is not there to start with, it will do you no good.
Why bother having a good fiddle if you're not going to use it
on gigs? You might as well invest the money in a vintage comic
book collection or go on a big holiday or get the gutters fixed...
The answer to your question is, in my opinion, yes. Your amplification system is there to amplify the sound you are making. If you use another fiddle, you won't enjoy playing so much, and you will never be happy with the sound. If that is offset by the relief from worrying about damage, then use another fiddle. But you will not like it.
My experience, and that of others I play with, is that the Headway band doesn't work too well on a "good" fiddle, (that's in a fairly loud amplified environment, electric guitar and bass, backline amps, drums etc) Too much middle, feedback probs, hard to get a decent sound. An OK, but acoustically unspecial fiddle works better.
"If you use another fiddle, you won't enjoy playing so much,".......Not sure about that, As long as the set up is basically the same won't you be listening to the sound system?
I also play in a band... with the only fiddle I've got, which is pretty expensive. I can't afford to replace it with a better one so I can just use it as my band instrument. The tone will definitely be affected. Always use a preamp...tone is always much better, and it's nice to be able to control some level of the sound and volume instead of always relying on the sound guys or another band member over at the PA.... also, the LR Baggs works very nicely. Keep the fiddle "away" in between sets to keep the drunks at bay. I'm known for being overprotective of my fiddle at gigs. But the extra precautions are worth it. Have some decent musical instrument insurance as well.
Your fiddle is probably a lot safer playing gigs with a band than at a typical pub session, and you owe it to yourself and your audience to make the best sound possible. So if you have a couple of hundred bucks to spare, far better to spend it on a good fiddle-mic/pickup and EQ than a bad fiddle.
Yes, it sounds very natural, unlike some of the others I've heard. I was able to get mine as payment for meetings I attended as an educator. We could choose $$ or a "technology" grant to cover materials expense (like a laptop). I chose an electric fiddle. It was about a $12000 instrument.
You get what you pay for.
Fair comment all, but there's a general assumption that a "better" acoustic fiddle = "better" amplified fiddle.
In my experience, that ain't necessarily so.
Apples and pears.
Apart from anything else research has shown that with a really good fiddle different notes come off different parts of the fiddle body. The Headway band may try to address that, a single microphone won't, even though it may be the best option in other ways. (Fascinating article by Joseph Curtin in "The Strad" a few years back including a description of an "audio hologram" giving the illusion of an invisible fiddle playing above a speaker system. If you look at what JC can charge for a fiddle he's made, I'm willing to assume he knows his onions!)
(To those having a heart attack right now--wyogal added an extra zero to that Zeta Educator price, I think.)
Thanks for the info, wyogal, I've been thinking about that model, myself, if I can handle the wallet shock at some point, and if I'm doing enough plugged-in gigs to justify it.
Although here's a YouTube clip of a Yamaha electric that sounds pretty good:
We've found the Fishman pickup to work best with a good amp for our playing. My daughter plays a fairly expensive and beautifully toned fiddle and it works well with it. She of course, is very careful with it.
Sound engineers are usually the best people for this advice. The top guys here in Scotland generally use Skyinbow and claim it to be miles ahead of the others. http://www.skyinbow.com . Fishman is a myth - terrible pick-ups.
Hi,
if you want to play acoustically and at the same time amplified, you'll need a system, that doesn't alter / mute the acoustic sound of your instrument. All piezo systems do this: they are built into the bridge or into the soundpost, are clamped onto the bridge, strapped around or glued to the body (shiver!). Result: a muted acoustic sound.
In our band "Dodecats" our celloplayer and me we're using magnetic "Rebo" pickups: they are clamped to the end of the fingerboard and don't touch vibrating parts of our instruments. These pickups have a relatively natural sound (for really natural sound: use a microphone) and we don't have feedback problems - even at high loudness levels. http://www.myspace.com/dodecats
We don't need extra equalization or effects to sound as we want and like it.
Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Hey guys, I'm in an Irish band and am using a very good violin along with "The Band" pickup by Headway (gives a very natural tone, though it picks up the other instruments a little- just in case anyone was wondering). I've recently gotten a small crack in the violin- nothing to worry about too much, I'll get it fixed, but it's got me thinking that I'm using a high quality violin in a much more aggressive environment (stages, shows etc) than it's used to, and I don't want it to get damaged.
So, my question is this: if I were to get a cheap violin (200,300 bucks maybe) and run it through the pickup, would there be a noticeable change in sound quality from my expensive violin? I know some of my tone is lost through the pickup already, so I'm just asking myself whether it's even worth putting my violin through this risk of damage at all. Does anyone have any experience or advice? Thanks!
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by ukrainefiddle
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
there's also the question of response, which is inferior in most cheap fiddles. the tone can be jimmied, but if the time it takes you to get a solid note is longer, that will hurt your music no matter how well-mic'ed you are, i think.
. . . but i've often thought of trying that with my old starter fiddle, just for grins.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by 'tinamatt
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
I recently did that sort of A/B comparison, of my cheap German student fiddle (nice neck, but muted tone) and my handmade modern American fiddle, with both pickup and microphone. Bottom line: No matter I twisted the dials, I could not make the cheap fiddle sound anywhere near as good as the handmade one.
The sound gear was new, "affordable pro quality" I suppose, the pickup was a bridge-slot piezo, and I know a little bit about dialing up sound.
So I'm sticking with the good fiddle for gigs, and being careful with it, (I use a fiddle hanger on a mic stand with a wide tripod base. And I keep an eye on it.)
But maybe you can find a nicer inexpensive fiddle than mine, and will work well enough. And maybe your gigs are rougher than mine. In other words, YMMV.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
I'm no expert but here goes.
I've used a well set up cheapo Chinese fiddle in the past as have others I have known.
As for a response, seek it through the sound system.
Depending in where you are playing it wouldn't pay to be too precious about a good fiddle. A drunk might fall on top of it or something.
Do whatever you like though. Are you wealthy?
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by bigyabby
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Forgot to say. I used a Fishman and a pre-amp.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by bigyabby
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Me too, on the pickup/preamp. And a Shure SM58 and an AKG pencil-style condenser mic, and combined sound of pickup and with each mic. Over JBL powered speakers.
Now, my beater fiddle really does have an especially strangled tone. I think you could probably find find a better-sounding one in the 300-dollar (US) range, if you looked hard for it. (You might have to spend a bit on getting it set up, though.)
But in my case, the missing frequences were too much. You can work the graphic EQ like crazy, and pile on digital effects--but if a particular sound frequency is not there to start with, it will do you no good.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Here's a game: find the extra word "and" in my previous post... (2nd line--sorry).
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Why bother having a good fiddle if you're not going to use it
on gigs? You might as well invest the money in a vintage comic
book collection or go on a big holiday or get the gutters fixed...
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by Hup
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
The answer to your question is, in my opinion, yes. Your amplification system is there to amplify the sound you are making. If you use another fiddle, you won't enjoy playing so much, and you will never be happy with the sound. If that is offset by the relief from worrying about damage, then use another fiddle. But you will not like it.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by gam
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
"get the gutters fixed" - at risk of life and limb I recently repaired and painted my own gutters so I could spend the money saved on a nice mandolin
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
My experience, and that of others I play with, is that the Headway band doesn't work too well on a "good" fiddle, (that's in a fairly loud amplified environment, electric guitar and bass, backline amps, drums etc) Too much middle, feedback probs, hard to get a decent sound. An OK, but acoustically unspecial fiddle works better.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
"If you use another fiddle, you won't enjoy playing so much,".......Not sure about that, As long as the set up is basically the same won't you be listening to the sound system?
Just wondering.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by bigyabby
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
I also play in a band... with the only fiddle I've got, which is pretty expensive. I can't afford to replace it with a better one so I can just use it as my band instrument. The tone will definitely be affected. Always use a preamp...tone is always much better, and it's nice to be able to control some level of the sound and volume instead of always relying on the sound guys or another band member over at the PA.... also, the LR Baggs works very nicely. Keep the fiddle "away" in between sets to keep the drunks at bay. I'm known for being overprotective of my fiddle at gigs. But the extra precautions are worth it. Have some decent musical instrument insurance as well.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Your fiddle is probably a lot safer playing gigs with a band than at a typical pub session, and you owe it to yourself and your audience to make the best sound possible. So if you have a couple of hundred bucks to spare, far better to spend it on a good fiddle-mic/pickup and EQ than a bad fiddle.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by skreech
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
I use a Zeta when I plug in, nothing fancy, "educator's model" and love it. It has a great tone.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
But a Zeta costs much more than 300 bucks, right wyogal?
I had a solid-body Zeta, years ago. Clean, nice broad frequency band, but very electric. Does your Educator model sound more natural?
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Yes, it sounds very natural, unlike some of the others I've heard. I was able to get mine as payment for meetings I attended as an educator. We could choose $$ or a "technology" grant to cover materials expense (like a laptop). I chose an electric fiddle. It was about a $12000 instrument.
You get what you pay for.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Fair comment all, but there's a general assumption that a "better" acoustic fiddle = "better" amplified fiddle.
In my experience, that ain't necessarily so.
Apples and pears.
Apart from anything else research has shown that with a really good fiddle different notes come off different parts of the fiddle body. The Headway band may try to address that, a single microphone won't, even though it may be the best option in other ways. (Fascinating article by Joseph Curtin in "The Strad" a few years back including a description of an "audio hologram" giving the illusion of an invisible fiddle playing above a speaker system. If you look at what JC can charge for a fiddle he's made, I'm willing to assume he knows his onions!)
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
(To those having a heart attack right now--wyogal added an extra zero to that Zeta Educator price, I think.)
Thanks for the info, wyogal, I've been thinking about that model, myself, if I can handle the wallet shock at some point, and if I'm doing enough plugged-in gigs to justify it.
Although here's a YouTube clip of a Yamaha electric that sounds pretty good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kpVLhcN020
Not sure how pricey it is, though.
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
yes! Thanks for catching that, twelve HUNDRED not thousand. hahahahaa!
The yamahas are good, but pricey (in my experience).
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
We've found the Fishman pickup to work best with a good amp for our playing. My daughter plays a fairly expensive and beautifully toned fiddle and it works well with it. She of course, is very careful with it.
# Posted on August 3rd 2009 by amhranociar
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Sound engineers are usually the best people for this advice. The top guys here in Scotland generally use Skyinbow and claim it to be miles ahead of the others. http://www.skyinbow.com . Fishman is a myth - terrible pick-ups.
# Posted on August 3rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Electric Pickup, Cheap Fiddle
Hi,
if you want to play acoustically and at the same time amplified, you'll need a system, that doesn't alter / mute the acoustic sound of your instrument. All piezo systems do this: they are built into the bridge or into the soundpost, are clamped onto the bridge, strapped around or glued to the body (shiver!). Result: a muted acoustic sound.
In our band "Dodecats" our celloplayer and me we're using magnetic "Rebo" pickups: they are clamped to the end of the fingerboard and don't touch vibrating parts of our instruments. These pickups have a relatively natural sound (for really natural sound: use a microphone) and we don't have feedback problems - even at high loudness levels.
http://www.myspace.com/dodecats
We don't need extra equalization or effects to sound as we want and like it.
# Posted on November 30th 2010 by UlisesDos