Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The situation for pub sessions in England and Wales, is rather like needing to get a third party to obtain the driving licence, road tax licence, insurance and the crash helmet required to drive a motor bike - in order for you to ride a bicycle - and then the Government claim this measure is not only necessary but then also claim that that is one that will encourage people to use bicycles.
All you should need to make music for your own enjoyment, is the licensee's agreement.
Re: SOS - save our sessions - The March to the Neo-Liberal Right
To many people this might look like a rather minor issue, but it is just another instance of the natural rights of citizens being systematically removed through unnecessary and restrictive legislation. USA’s Patriot Act is effectively being brought into the EU in a gradual, drip, drip way!
Britain, Ireland and much of the rest of Europe (all of the anti democratic EU for sure) are plunging towards a frightening right-wing spiral of control of the population. Even this week “The Big Green Gathering” to be held in Somerset was cancelled after the British police (not widely known for their regard for freedom of speech or the rule of law) got a High Court injunction to cancel the festival because it favours free thought, free speech, and opposes the policies of the neo-liberal British Government. This long-running, peaceful festival had a received a licence from the Council, and the injunction was served only 2 days before the festival was to begin, so as to insure that the organizers are bankrupted. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/27/big-green-gathering-climate-camp The police do not enforce the law in Britain, they enforce the policies of notorious war criminals Butcher Brown and Bloodbath Blair (whose evil shadow still infects British politics). It’s a sad day when someone playing the fiddle in a pub is deemed to be committing a criminal offence. And come to think of it, Ireland is the only country in Europe whose constitution demands a right to a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, with its militarization of the EU (committing every country to an increase in military spending, and establishing the arms manufacturers as a central part of the EU government), anti-democratic rule (where laws can be passed in a country even though the population and all their elected politicians vote against them), and neo-liberal capitalism (outlawing any restrictions on the absolute free-movement of money across borders or any constraints on financial trading, despite the disastrous mess wrought on us all by a capitalist system that that was less extreme than this). Be afraid, these restrictions on us doing normal things such as playing music, or speaking in public are signs that fascism is reasserting itself. Drip, drip, drip… and all of a sudden we have no rights. The Irish political ruling class are forcing us all to vote again, democracy’s fine apparently so long as we vote the way we’re told. We all find ourselves in a dangerous environment. No opposition to the views of the rulers is permitted, we supposedly have tolerance and democracy, but even Hitler agreed with freedom of speech for view he agreed with.
Thanks for alerting us to this fresh assult on the right of the public.
I fact, I have no idea why people in Britain, Ireland and in the rest of the EU are not protesting in the streets about the Lisbon Treaty (a rewording of the EU Constitution) being forced on them, despite the fact that the vast majority of the population of pretty much every EU country is opposed to the treaty and every principle it stands for, and despite the fact the France, Holland, and Ireland have voted against it, as is their right (at least for the present).
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
'All you should need to make music for your own enjoyment, is the licensee's agreement'
this is funny to me in a very 'bizzarro world' kinda way
All I need to make music is my banjo and whistle
I can drive without license, registration,insurance all that's needed is a car
I don't need seatbelt or helmet and neither do my kids
I don't need public schools, nor do my children
I can live without government
Government is a state of mind
but out of curiosity what does the 'Patriot Act have to do with EU pub sessions?
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Here I thought it was a lame response to a perceived threat by a weak and paranoid government to lousy foreign policy for four decades. Had no idea that sessions were targeted.
News to me
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Roger - I've signed the petition even though I live in Scotland where I assume the law is different, at least at present. Judging by other petitions I've signed in the past the Govt (which alas is more than a state of mind) won't listen but it's worth a try - best of luck.
Whistleblower - don't get me started!!
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Roger, I was just about to sign when I spotted the "You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition." stipulation. Anyhow I'd imagine most of us are with you in spirit as any moves to restrict the age old freedoms of cultural expression have to be resisted. I suppose we're an easy target for the faceless bureaucrats such as those here in Ireland who thought that stopping under 18 year old musicians from playing tunes in pubs and hotels after 9.00pm might solve the country's long-running drinking problem! I hope you get enough signings in the UK to make the "powers that be" think again.
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The situation with the Big Green Gathering is an absolute outrage. A nicer festival you couldn't hope to find. People are well behaved, there's very little noise - all electrified music stops around 1am (I think, it might be earlier) and anyway there aren't any huge, loud stages. Funny how big loud corporate festivals with a considerably less friendly ethos are allowed to continue. The BGG is probably amongst the last of the UK festivals to have some sort of lineage back to the free festival movement that Thatcher's government so hated. Once they realised they couldn't be defeated by the simple process of banning them, these days it starts to look like instead they gradually bought the whole idea out.
Re: SOS - save our sessions - The March to the Neo-Liberal Right
Well said Pavlf, it is quite amazing that Big Green Gathering has been banned. It’s the only festival where I’ve met a Catholic Benedictine monk and then a Buddhist monk. These people are not a threat to anyone, and there has never been any trouble at this festival.
Biggus Dave, you’re quite right of course about the serious dangers of disagreeing with the British state. It’s absolutely clear that the Peelers have a licence to kill. In England’s Coroner’s Court a verdict of ‘unlawful killing’ is never allowed as an option when the cops do the killing; such was the case when Jean Charles de Menezes was murdered by the police – the cover-up started immediately, and the attitude of police and state is ‘what’s the big deal?’, they barely blinked an eye. In Athens when the police shot a teenager dead in cold blood the people set the city on fire until the police were up on murder charges.
Ireland has a similar problem with the Guards, they have absolute power to attack what is actually legal protest, using any level violence they desire, in full knowledge that they will never face justice. (“Brown Shirts in Blue Shirts”, we call them!) The Big Green Gathering being stopped by the police is really a rather frightening precedent. I was about to get a flight to England when I heard about this latest disgrace of right-wing political policing. Anti-terrorism legislation in Britain is now routinely used against environmentalists, anti-war protesters, anti-arms-trade protesters, and activists of all sorts. I’m sure the BNP’s White Power Festival will go ahead without hindrance, and with the full support of the police. Like I said before: “even Hitler agreed with freedom of speech for views he agreed with”.
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The response to the killing of the boy in Athens was true to form there.
Bullying and ridiculous kinds of arrogance have been endemic in the history of modern Greek government. But when it gets to a critical mass, the Greeks go BONKERS - always have done, hopefully always will. I don't mean (necessarily) in terms of mindless violence: more in terms of exercising freedom of speech and assembly, as a primal right.
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Whilst it may be considered that there are bigger issues than sessions and live music in general being needlessly affected by our licensing legislation. I agree that there are reasons in common behind this,
However, perhaps this discussion can be limited to this, as this is why I started it on this site?
For if those here who know and value the simple pleasures that participatory pub sessions have to offer, are not able to be seen to group together, inform and fight to obtain a more sensible approach from our officials - then what chance is there of ever tackling the bigger issues?
Please circulate this petition as widely as possible.
A petition calling on the Prime Minister to stop using the Licensing Act to
criminalise live music and to implement amendments that would exempt small
gigs has gained over 1000 signatures since it was launched last Monday, 27
July: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/livemusicevents/
Please consider signing. If you support the petition, please circulate the
link above as widely as possible.
Even musical instruments provided by schools are caught in this madness, as
confirmed in this 'Yes Minister' government response of 15 July 2009 to
questions raised by Lord Clement-Jones:
Lord Clement-Jones: To ask Her Majesty's Government what information or
guidance has been provided to schools and local authorities concerning the
requirement to license the provision of musical instruments as
"entertainment facilities" under the Licensing Act 2003 where such
instruments are used in public performances of live music or private
performances that seek to raise money for good causes. [HL4839]
The Minister for Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord Carter of
Barnes): The department has provided general advice to applicants on its
website and detailed guidance to licensing authorities on the 2003 Act as it
affects the provision of regulated entertainment. However, the Act has
devolved responsibility for the administration of the licensing regime to
individual authorities and it is for them to consider each application on
its own merits. The Act does not draw a distinction between events which are
put on for charity purposes and those which are not.
Although the 2003 Act requires schools and colleges to obtain a licence for
regulated entertainment to which the public are invited, or for a private
entertainment where a fee is charged with a view to profit, they are exempt
from paying the licence fee if the event is provided by, located at and for
the purpose of the school or college.
Lord Clement-Jones: To ask Her Majesty's Government what proportion of
schools in England and Wales are licensed under the Licensing Act 2003 for
performances of live music and the provision of musical instruments as
"entertainment facilities". [HL4840]
Lord Carter of Barnes: We do not hold this information. The statistical data
collected by the department identify how many premises have permission, in
the form of a premises licence or club premises certificate, to put on
regulated entertainment, including live music. However, it is not known how
many schools have obtained an appropriate permission to cover live
performances of music and the provision of entertainment facilities, or
indeed any other form of regulated entertainment such as a dance event or a
play. In some cases, a school may decide to put on an event by giving a
temporary event notice.
Although the Licensing Act 2003 requires schools and colleges to obtain a
licence for regulated entertainment to which the public are invited, or for
a private entertainment where a fee is charged with a view to profit, they
are exempt from paying the licence fee if the event is provided by, located
at and for the purpose of the school or college.
SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Grateful if you could sign and circulate this.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/livemusicevents/
The last one received 80.000 signatures - and still that one was ignored. http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page12238
This one needs at least that amount.
Many thanks
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by Roger Gall
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The situation for pub sessions in England and Wales, is rather like needing to get a third party to obtain the driving licence, road tax licence, insurance and the crash helmet required to drive a motor bike - in order for you to ride a bicycle - and then the Government claim this measure is not only necessary but then also claim that that is one that will encourage people to use bicycles.
All you should need to make music for your own enjoyment, is the licensee's agreement.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by Roger Gall
Re: SOS - save our sessions - The March to the Neo-Liberal Right
To many people this might look like a rather minor issue, but it is just another instance of the natural rights of citizens being systematically removed through unnecessary and restrictive legislation. USA’s Patriot Act is effectively being brought into the EU in a gradual, drip, drip way!
Britain, Ireland and much of the rest of Europe (all of the anti democratic EU for sure) are plunging towards a frightening right-wing spiral of control of the population. Even this week “The Big Green Gathering” to be held in Somerset was cancelled after the British police (not widely known for their regard for freedom of speech or the rule of law) got a High Court injunction to cancel the festival because it favours free thought, free speech, and opposes the policies of the neo-liberal British Government. This long-running, peaceful festival had a received a licence from the Council, and the injunction was served only 2 days before the festival was to begin, so as to insure that the organizers are bankrupted. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/27/big-green-gathering-climate-camp The police do not enforce the law in Britain, they enforce the policies of notorious war criminals Butcher Brown and Bloodbath Blair (whose evil shadow still infects British politics). It’s a sad day when someone playing the fiddle in a pub is deemed to be committing a criminal offence. And come to think of it, Ireland is the only country in Europe whose constitution demands a right to a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, with its militarization of the EU (committing every country to an increase in military spending, and establishing the arms manufacturers as a central part of the EU government), anti-democratic rule (where laws can be passed in a country even though the population and all their elected politicians vote against them), and neo-liberal capitalism (outlawing any restrictions on the absolute free-movement of money across borders or any constraints on financial trading, despite the disastrous mess wrought on us all by a capitalist system that that was less extreme than this). Be afraid, these restrictions on us doing normal things such as playing music, or speaking in public are signs that fascism is reasserting itself. Drip, drip, drip… and all of a sudden we have no rights. The Irish political ruling class are forcing us all to vote again, democracy’s fine apparently so long as we vote the way we’re told. We all find ourselves in a dangerous environment. No opposition to the views of the rulers is permitted, we supposedly have tolerance and democracy, but even Hitler agreed with freedom of speech for view he agreed with.
Thanks for alerting us to this fresh assult on the right of the public.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: SOS - Creaping Fascism
I fact, I have no idea why people in Britain, Ireland and in the rest of the EU are not protesting in the streets about the Lisbon Treaty (a rewording of the EU Constitution) being forced on them, despite the fact that the vast majority of the population of pretty much every EU country is opposed to the treaty and every principle it stands for, and despite the fact the France, Holland, and Ireland have voted against it, as is their right (at least for the present).
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
'All you should need to make music for your own enjoyment, is the licensee's agreement'
this is funny to me in a very 'bizzarro world' kinda way
All I need to make music is my banjo and whistle
I can drive without license, registration,insurance all that's needed is a car
I don't need seatbelt or helmet and neither do my kids
I don't need public schools, nor do my children
I can live without government
Government is a state of mind
but out of curiosity what does the 'Patriot Act have to do with EU pub sessions?
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by shanty
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Here I thought it was a lame response to a perceived threat by a weak and paranoid government to lousy foreign policy for four decades. Had no idea that sessions were targeted.
News to me
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by shanty
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Roger - I've signed the petition even though I live in Scotland where I assume the law is different, at least at present. Judging by other petitions I've signed in the past the Govt (which alas is more than a state of mind) won't listen but it's worth a try - best of luck.
Whistleblower - don't get me started!!
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by Slightly Mad Scientist
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Roger, I was just about to sign when I spotted the "You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition." stipulation. Anyhow I'd imagine most of us are with you in spirit as any moves to restrict the age old freedoms of cultural expression have to be resisted. I suppose we're an easy target for the faceless bureaucrats such as those here in Ireland who thought that stopping under 18 year old musicians from playing tunes in pubs and hotels after 9.00pm might solve the country's long-running drinking problem! I hope you get enough signings in the UK to make the "powers that be" think again.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The situation with the Big Green Gathering is an absolute outrage. A nicer festival you couldn't hope to find. People are well behaved, there's very little noise - all electrified music stops around 1am (I think, it might be earlier) and anyway there aren't any huge, loud stages. Funny how big loud corporate festivals with a considerably less friendly ethos are allowed to continue. The BGG is probably amongst the last of the UK festivals to have some sort of lineage back to the free festival movement that Thatcher's government so hated. Once they realised they couldn't be defeated by the simple process of banning them, these days it starts to look like instead they gradually bought the whole idea out.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by pavlf
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
'I fact, I have no idea why people in Britain, Ireland and in the rest of the EU are not protesting in the streets...'
As far as Britain is concerned,this may be one of the factors...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2009/apr/07/g20-police-assault-video
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: SOS - save our sessions - The March to the Neo-Liberal Right
Well said Pavlf, it is quite amazing that Big Green Gathering has been banned. It’s the only festival where I’ve met a Catholic Benedictine monk and then a Buddhist monk. These people are not a threat to anyone, and there has never been any trouble at this festival.
Biggus Dave, you’re quite right of course about the serious dangers of disagreeing with the British state. It’s absolutely clear that the Peelers have a licence to kill. In England’s Coroner’s Court a verdict of ‘unlawful killing’ is never allowed as an option when the cops do the killing; such was the case when Jean Charles de Menezes was murdered by the police – the cover-up started immediately, and the attitude of police and state is ‘what’s the big deal?’, they barely blinked an eye. In Athens when the police shot a teenager dead in cold blood the people set the city on fire until the police were up on murder charges.
Ireland has a similar problem with the Guards, they have absolute power to attack what is actually legal protest, using any level violence they desire, in full knowledge that they will never face justice. (“Brown Shirts in Blue Shirts”, we call them!) The Big Green Gathering being stopped by the police is really a rather frightening precedent. I was about to get a flight to England when I heard about this latest disgrace of right-wing political policing. Anti-terrorism legislation in Britain is now routinely used against environmentalists, anti-war protesters, anti-arms-trade protesters, and activists of all sorts. I’m sure the BNP’s White Power Festival will go ahead without hindrance, and with the full support of the police. Like I said before: “even Hitler agreed with freedom of speech for views he agreed with”.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The response to the killing of the boy in Athens was true to form there.
Bullying and ridiculous kinds of arrogance have been endemic in the history of modern Greek government. But when it gets to a critical mass, the Greeks go BONKERS - always have done, hopefully always will. I don't mean (necessarily) in terms of mindless violence: more in terms of exercising freedom of speech and assembly, as a primal right.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by nicholas
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Whilst it may be considered that there are bigger issues than sessions and live music in general being needlessly affected by our licensing legislation. I agree that there are reasons in common behind this,
However, perhaps this discussion can be limited to this, as this is why I started it on this site?
For if those here who know and value the simple pleasures that participatory pub sessions have to offer, are not able to be seen to group together, inform and fight to obtain a more sensible approach from our officials - then what chance is there of ever tackling the bigger issues?
Please circulate this petition as widely as possible.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by Roger Gall
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Yeah, amazing, a BNP Festival gets the green light, and a green festival, the BGG is taken down.
Anyway, back to the petition ...(which I signed) ...
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by pavlf
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
Link to the Culture Media & Sport Committee Licensing Act 2003 report (PDF file 2.42Mb, see pp27-32):
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmcumeds/492/492.pdf
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by Roger Gall
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The Chairman of the Select Committee is not happy.
http://www.thestage.co.uk/news/newsstory.php/25147/whittingdale-lambasts-whitehalls-rejection
# Posted on July 29th 2009 by Roger Gall
Re: SOS - save our sessions - please sign new E Petitiion
The following from Hamish Birchall - http://www.livemusicforum.co.uk/
A petition calling on the Prime Minister to stop using the Licensing Act to
criminalise live music and to implement amendments that would exempt small
gigs has gained over 1000 signatures since it was launched last Monday, 27
July: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/livemusicevents/
Please consider signing. If you support the petition, please circulate the
link above as widely as possible.
Many local authorities use the Act to bully small venues, including schools:
http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/School-show-scrapped-after-head.5080776.jp
Providing musical instruments is of itself a potential offence:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1194875/Strolling-Beethoven-Playing-PIANO-street--start-new-craze.html
Even musical instruments provided by schools are caught in this madness, as
confirmed in this 'Yes Minister' government response of 15 July 2009 to
questions raised by Lord Clement-Jones:
Lord Clement-Jones: To ask Her Majesty's Government what information or
guidance has been provided to schools and local authorities concerning the
requirement to license the provision of musical instruments as
"entertainment facilities" under the Licensing Act 2003 where such
instruments are used in public performances of live music or private
performances that seek to raise money for good causes. [HL4839]
The Minister for Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord Carter of
Barnes): The department has provided general advice to applicants on its
website and detailed guidance to licensing authorities on the 2003 Act as it
affects the provision of regulated entertainment. However, the Act has
devolved responsibility for the administration of the licensing regime to
individual authorities and it is for them to consider each application on
its own merits. The Act does not draw a distinction between events which are
put on for charity purposes and those which are not.
Although the 2003 Act requires schools and colleges to obtain a licence for
regulated entertainment to which the public are invited, or for a private
entertainment where a fee is charged with a view to profit, they are exempt
from paying the licence fee if the event is provided by, located at and for
the purpose of the school or college.
Lord Clement-Jones: To ask Her Majesty's Government what proportion of
schools in England and Wales are licensed under the Licensing Act 2003 for
performances of live music and the provision of musical instruments as
"entertainment facilities". [HL4840]
Lord Carter of Barnes: We do not hold this information. The statistical data
collected by the department identify how many premises have permission, in
the form of a premises licence or club premises certificate, to put on
regulated entertainment, including live music. However, it is not known how
many schools have obtained an appropriate permission to cover live
performances of music and the provision of entertainment facilities, or
indeed any other form of regulated entertainment such as a dance event or a
play. In some cases, a school may decide to put on an event by giving a
temporary event notice.
Although the Licensing Act 2003 requires schools and colleges to obtain a
licence for regulated entertainment to which the public are invited, or for
a private entertainment where a fee is charged with a view to profit, they
are exempt from paying the licence fee if the event is provided by, located
at and for the purpose of the school or college.
See:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldhansrd/text/90715w0002.htm#09071576000578
ENDS
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Roger Gall