Originally this thread was going to be about tone on the fiddle, but I know that's been done to death already, and as I thought about it there was a secondary theme running around my head--that of a second teacher.
I had been playing with a lot of pressure, but in light of a recent thread I lightened it up, and also, when I was in Cornwall, I had a lesson with a *wonderful* teacher--Mike Pritchard) and was told to think of the bow as if I was holding a butterfly. But back home, at a recent lesson my teacher said, "you've got to work on tone!" (no new tunes for me for a while I guess :o( and, "Put some more pressure on the bow!"
At the same time, I had been thinking about picking up some lessons with another teacher just because I felt I needed some additional perspective, that it would jump start my learning a bit more and also make me think about things in a different way perhaps. (I have had the same teacher for 2 years on the fiddle and 7 years on the harp and I absolutely love her--she has been a driving force in my life.) The lesson with Mike was very productive in many ways (besides the "butterfly" thing) and really came at teaching from a bit of a different angle.
So--what do you guys think? Is a second teacher a good thing or a detrimental thing? It would be good to hear the opinions and experiences of both students and teachers--and those in between as well!
You should get as many teachers as you can. No, what am I saying, you should treat everyone you meet as a teacher. If you feel you have to pay some of them and make it all formal then that's up to you I suppose, never felt the need myself, but i'm not dissing it.
One thing should be obvious though, if you only have one teacher, you're gonna end up sounding like them.
I agree you should treat everyone you meet as a teacher. However, there's something to be said for sticking with one teacher if you suit each other. It's the traditional way to learn. If my father had been a traditional musician and taught me The Music, that's how I would have learned at first. Then you meet others and branch out. Its as simple as that. My teacher is my 'musical-dad'. I suppose if your teacher doesn't have a regional style then this is a moot point.
But if they do have a regional style, there isn't much point of diluting that when you are learning. Sure you may end up sounding like them at first and that sort of thing has been roundly criticized. But there is a world of difference between learning to play from someone in the traditional way, one-on-one, and ending up with the style of the region, vs. sounding like a clone of someone by copying settings from tracks on a cd. I don't hear many complaints when the son or daughter of one of our great musicians sounds like their father or plays in the same style and branches out to become great themselves.
My teacher has routinely encouraged me to make each tune my own, while at the same time correcting me on my forays into the wild. I told him from the start that I wanted to learn exactly what he did because I didn't want to sound like a bowl of minestrone soup. At one point I was even told to practice alone, so as not to pick up bad habits when still very impressionable. There's an incredible amount of information and music to learn from one person who's a master at what they do. Everyone isn't that lucky but when you are it seems almost silly to not take advantage of the luck.
Then you go to some summerschools and meet some more teachers, pick up something here and there. I was encouraged to do that after my first year or 2. I always bring that back to my teacher and often am told, yes keep this, don't change that, there's a nice touch, etc.
There's a difference between all this and having difficulty on a particular technique being taught one way by one teacher. The time I went to a second teacher for help, he cautioned that some teachers don't like that, but I was again lucky that I had no problems as a result of it, only a solution to the problem I was having. If this is your case I'd say discuss it with the teacher if you can, go to someone else to get that point straightened out, then go back. It only broadens your view. Knowledge is power.
Andee, one rule of thumb about taking advice from your teacher is whether or not you like how s/he sounds. Would you rather sound like your current teacher, or like Mike Pritchard?
Also, find out what your current teacher means by "Put more pressure on the bow." I'd take it to mean still holding the bow lightly, like a butterfly, but allowing more of your hand or forearm weight to help press the hair into the strings. A little goes a long way, and it doesn't require a death grip on the stick.
And bear in mind that "tone" is not just one type of sound. Eventually you want to learn to use the bow to give you a broad range of tone, from light and whispery, through clear and strong, to growly and barking.
Andee, I remember being told to put more pressure on the bow.
At the same tame I've also been given advice to hold the bow feather light - a great violinist told me how he once lost his bow at one occation at full speed moving upwards and that luckily someone managed to grab it in air without the $XX XXX bow being damaged. That's just how light a grasp one should have, he told me.
The clue, as how I found it, is to put initial weight on the bow at the very attack of every note - and after that let the bow flow and do the job.
I remember training making that scratchy "biting" sound at the attack to see how bad I could make it. Allthough frowned upon in most circles, I think this sound can add to the quality of a tune, as masterly demonstrated by Brian Rooney on his tune "Brian Rooney's" on The Godfather.
Thanks Halldor, I think I will try that approach. It's a very hard juxtaposition to achieve.
Good advice from everyone else here, too, even if on different sides of the argument. I like the idea of treating every player you meet as a teacher, and I am also aware that I have a rare thing--a good teacher handing me down the tunes in the traditional way. A lot to think about....
Dropping a bodhran tipper, bad but forgivable - dropping a plectrum, also bad - breaking a violin E-string with the frog on a full up-bow, naughty - but completely losing your grip on the bow - shocking lack of control and unforgivable in my book!
Andee, Halldor - remember that the 'scratchy' sound at the attack won't sound quite so harsh to a listener even a few feet away.
No no no, Jim. Shocking lack of control and unforgiveable is things like hitting your spouse or children, murdering your neighbor, stuff like that. Throwing your bow around is something you laugh at people for. *grin*
Having more than one teacher
Having more than one teacher
Originally this thread was going to be about tone on the fiddle, but I know that's been done to death already, and as I thought about it there was a secondary theme running around my head--that of a second teacher.
I had been playing with a lot of pressure, but in light of a recent thread I lightened it up, and also, when I was in Cornwall, I had a lesson with a *wonderful* teacher--Mike Pritchard) and was told to think of the bow as if I was holding a butterfly. But back home, at a recent lesson my teacher said, "you've got to work on tone!" (no new tunes for me for a while I guess :o( and, "Put some more pressure on the bow!"
At the same time, I had been thinking about picking up some lessons with another teacher just because I felt I needed some additional perspective, that it would jump start my learning a bit more and also make me think about things in a different way perhaps. (I have had the same teacher for 2 years on the fiddle and 7 years on the harp and I absolutely love her--she has been a driving force in my life.) The lesson with Mike was very productive in many ways (besides the "butterfly" thing) and really came at teaching from a bit of a different angle.
So--what do you guys think? Is a second teacher a good thing or a detrimental thing? It would be good to hear the opinions and experiences of both students and teachers--and those in between as well!
# Posted on October 4th 2003 by Andee
Re: Having more than one teacher
You should get as many teachers as you can. No, what am I saying, you should treat everyone you meet as a teacher. If you feel you have to pay some of them and make it all formal then that's up to you I suppose, never felt the need myself, but i'm not dissing it.
One thing should be obvious though, if you only have one teacher, you're gonna end up sounding like them.
# Posted on October 4th 2003 by ...
Re: Having more than one teacher
I agree you should treat everyone you meet as a teacher. However, there's something to be said for sticking with one teacher if you suit each other. It's the traditional way to learn. If my father had been a traditional musician and taught me The Music, that's how I would have learned at first. Then you meet others and branch out. Its as simple as that. My teacher is my 'musical-dad'. I suppose if your teacher doesn't have a regional style then this is a moot point.
But if they do have a regional style, there isn't much point of diluting that when you are learning. Sure you may end up sounding like them at first and that sort of thing has been roundly criticized. But there is a world of difference between learning to play from someone in the traditional way, one-on-one, and ending up with the style of the region, vs. sounding like a clone of someone by copying settings from tracks on a cd. I don't hear many complaints when the son or daughter of one of our great musicians sounds like their father or plays in the same style and branches out to become great themselves.
My teacher has routinely encouraged me to make each tune my own, while at the same time correcting me on my forays into the wild. I told him from the start that I wanted to learn exactly what he did because I didn't want to sound like a bowl of minestrone soup. At one point I was even told to practice alone, so as not to pick up bad habits when still very impressionable. There's an incredible amount of information and music to learn from one person who's a master at what they do. Everyone isn't that lucky but when you are it seems almost silly to not take advantage of the luck.
Then you go to some summerschools and meet some more teachers, pick up something here and there. I was encouraged to do that after my first year or 2. I always bring that back to my teacher and often am told, yes keep this, don't change that, there's a nice touch, etc.
There's a difference between all this and having difficulty on a particular technique being taught one way by one teacher. The time I went to a second teacher for help, he cautioned that some teachers don't like that, but I was again lucky that I had no problems as a result of it, only a solution to the problem I was having. If this is your case I'd say discuss it with the teacher if you can, go to someone else to get that point straightened out, then go back. It only broadens your view. Knowledge is power.
# Posted on October 5th 2003 by LH
Re: Having more than one teacher
Andee, one rule of thumb about taking advice from your teacher is whether or not you like how s/he sounds. Would you rather sound like your current teacher, or like Mike Pritchard?
Also, find out what your current teacher means by "Put more pressure on the bow." I'd take it to mean still holding the bow lightly, like a butterfly, but allowing more of your hand or forearm weight to help press the hair into the strings. A little goes a long way, and it doesn't require a death grip on the stick.
And bear in mind that "tone" is not just one type of sound. Eventually you want to learn to use the bow to give you a broad range of tone, from light and whispery, through clear and strong, to growly and barking.
(Aarf, aarf
# Posted on October 5th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Having more than one teacher
Andee, I remember being told to put more pressure on the bow.
At the same tame I've also been given advice to hold the bow feather light - a great violinist told me how he once lost his bow at one occation at full speed moving upwards and that luckily someone managed to grab it in air without the $XX XXX bow being damaged. That's just how light a grasp one should have, he told me.
The clue, as how I found it, is to put initial weight on the bow at the very attack of every note - and after that let the bow flow and do the job.
I remember training making that scratchy "biting" sound at the attack to see how bad I could make it. Allthough frowned upon in most circles, I think this sound can add to the quality of a tune, as masterly demonstrated by Brian Rooney on his tune "Brian Rooney's" on The Godfather.
# Posted on October 7th 2003 by FiddleTramp
Re: Having more than one teacher
Thanks Halldor, I think I will try that approach. It's a very hard juxtaposition to achieve.
Good advice from everyone else here, too, even if on different sides of the argument. I like the idea of treating every player you meet as a teacher, and I am also aware that I have a rare thing--a good teacher handing me down the tunes in the traditional way. A lot to think about....
# Posted on October 7th 2003 by Andee
Re: Having more than one teacher
Dropping a bodhran tipper, bad but forgivable - dropping a plectrum, also bad - breaking a violin E-string with the frog on a full up-bow, naughty - but completely losing your grip on the bow - shocking lack of control and unforgivable in my book!
Andee, Halldor - remember that the 'scratchy' sound at the attack won't sound quite so harsh to a listener even a few feet away.
Jim
# Posted on October 8th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Having more than one teacher
No no no, Jim. Shocking lack of control and unforgiveable is things like hitting your spouse or children, murdering your neighbor, stuff like that. Throwing your bow around is something you laugh at people for. *grin*
# Posted on October 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Having more than one teacher
Yes, Zina....got to admit you're right !
I was in exasperated teacher mode when I read the post!
Jim
# Posted on October 8th 2003 by Worldfiddler