I just stumbled across this quote from fiddler Oisin Mac Diarmada, in Strings Magazine (May 2005). It resonated with what Michael and I were saying in another thread, and I thought it was worth repeating here.
"Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries. They wouldn't have found material in Irish music to demonstrate their technical skills. But there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."
There's some irony in Oisin saying this--I tend to think of him as an exponent of the more technical side of Irish fiddling. His Sligo playing is chock full of rolls, triplet runs, fourth finger cuts, and melodic triplets, with near-continuous and subtle variations. So if he thinks of this as comparatively simple music, I'm happy to as well.
Just ask any classical fiddler how simple trad is, they are very likely to agree with you, yet somehow there are few who can actually play it without learning a whole bunch of techniques.... strange that ,if its so simple.
Where does Sean McGuire fit in with this generalisation then? He was pretty flashy no? using tunes like the Masons apron to display his skills as a fiddler.
Personally I think you are reading into Oisins comment what you want to hear. IMO He is talking about keeping it simple, as opposed to the music being simple
>>''.there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."<<
Pointing out thats its beauty is not in its complexity, but in its clarity, precision, flow, melody etc . Yes in a sense, when compared to some types of music it is melodically,and Harmonically simple , but compared to others it is not at all.
For example the chord patterns can contain 2 or 3 chords, so in a sense they are simple, but the actual patterns can be complex and intricate and defy all but those who have put in the groundwork.
Just because something is simple does not mean it is easy, you are confusing 2 seperate issues.
Try freehand Japanese calligraphy! a simple circle for example, correctly done can be seen as the height of the art. Simple yes easy? not even for a master!
“Just ask any classical fiddler how simple trad is, they are very likely to agree with you, yet somehow there are few who can actually play it without learning a whole bunch of techniques”
Hmmm. Seems to me it’s more a matter of *un*learning technique.
Yes it is simple. Melodically simple compared to the complexities of Eastern (ie., Indian, or Asian with their 1/4-tone scales) melody. Harmonically simple as compared to the stacked chordal harmonies of Debussy, Ravel, or modern jazz. Rhythmically simple as compared to West African poly-rhythmic (ie., 3/4 and 12/8 simultaneous metered music) drum ensembles, or the rapid and varied meter and tempi changes one might find in the music of Aaron Copland. Formally simple when compared to anything beyond AABB form (even a Sousa march). Tonally simple in that Irish music rarely ventures beyond three sharps or flats key signatures, and usually restricts the melodies to less than two octaves total range. Even somewhat ornamentally restrictive compared to the range of ornamentation available to most instruments in others genres (ie., is the trill, glissando, flutter-tongue, string-bend, harmonics, etc ever really purposely used in Irish music?)
But taken as a whole, Irish music presents enough complexity as to require years of work in order to achieve mastery of its art. It speaks its own unique language with its own deep cultural roots.
Still, I think what Oisin's getting at is how little technical proficiency is needed to play this music. In the space of a few quotes, he mentions "technical" aspects three times as something that's not a feature of this music, relative to more formal musics. This from a fiddler who started winning contests at 8 (which would seem to indicate that he was as technically proficient as one would need to be in this music).
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Sounds like they stole the modus operandi of the mustard board!
The point being, of course, that the years of playing you effortlessly travel through which enables you to achieve some level of understanding of this art have little to do with technique. The technical part is a tiny proportion of what this music is. And it's one of the reasons I love it.
But you'll never get this point across to Jig. Never ever. There is simply nothing to be done with someone who, when given a straight forward premise: "You can't find material in Irish music to demonstrate technical skills", says "He is talking about keeping it simple, as opposed to the music being simple".
I'm sorry, but the bloke's brain just doesn't work properly.
>>''.there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."<<
>>''.there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."<<
Indeed.
And Oisin, speaking as a well-respected Irish fiddler as well as a trained classical pianist (uni in Dublin) knows this as well as anybody.
I love this bit from jig's first post on this thread:
"Pointing out thats its beauty is not in its complexity, but in its clarity, precision, flow, melody etc . Yes in a sense, when compared to some types of music it is melodically,and Harmonically simple , but compared to others it is not at all.
For example the chord patterns can contain 2 or 3 chords, so in a sense they are simple, but the actual patterns can be complex and intricate and defy all but those who have put in the groundwork"
In short, jig is saying that the music is beautiful because it's simple, but only the technically proficient can reveal the music's complexity.
And this is a really good quote. Starkly unambiguous:
''there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."
And yet why did Jig quote it with no explanation? It states quite succinctly the opposite of his argument. What does he think it means?
No, jig keeps coming back to his pet theory that you can play this music well only if you've spent eons slaving away at the technical aspects, playing scales and arpeggios, honing the twiddly bits separate from the tunes, etc. I'm guessing that for him, this has been true, so he thinks it holds true for everyone else. And he can't believe that other people can learn to play this music well without eons of exercises and drills and working hard at their craft.
My gawd, the man has banged guitar chords and twiddled on mandolin with Jacky Daly. He must be brilliant. No one else here has ever played with a "name" player, or anyone who might actually be good at this music, right? And Oisin Mac Diarmada obviously doesn't know anything.
It must be difficult to keep everything straight when you post under aliases and false pretenses, when you're not sure whether you've played fiddle for 15 years or 20, and whether you actually play the pipes or they play you....
"In my own teaching I believe you have to give everything you have, show your students your full technique. I always begin with staff notation; nowadays with so much traditional music written down it is important for young payers to have the key to the library as it were." -- jig, AKA Ionannas
Good grief, I feel sorry for these students if there actually ever were any. The "payers" thing is funny, Freudian slip?
If only jig would stop trying to pretend to be something that he's not. Those who know little but pretend to know all will never learn a damn thing.
But back to the subject. In old-time fiddling I hear lots and lots of fiddlers who concentrate very hard on technical displays to the point where it just ruins the tunes completely. I guess it's the corruption of "contest style." IMHO fiddle contests have absolutely killed old-time, but I won't go into that here.
That sort of thing doesn't really exist in Irish trad very much, which is one of the reasons I like it better than old-time. I listen to music to enjoy the music, not to be impressed with the musicians.
And the most impressive musicians are typically the ones who use their skill to bring out the beauty of a tune, rather than showing off as many bells and whistles as they can possibly bolt onto the tune.
Ugh, I just read through that thread, I had forgotten about it. Now I remember why I stopped coming here, and yet again here I am being sucked into jig's vortex of stupidity again. Back to lurking...
llig, he was talking to me, I forgot that jig was quoting someone else and attributed it to him.
I still think it's a stupid thing to say, no matter who said it. Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean they're always right. I'm pretty sure that Bobby Gardiner didn't learn to play from dots.
Me too, richrua. I also like the simple pleasures of life that go with it. Meeting up with friends to play tunes. Having a couple of pints, maybe some food, hopefully some dancing. Many laughs. Its not too technical in my opinion. I think the first paragraph of llig's first post on this thread says it best - "the years of playing you effortlessly travel through which enables you to achieve some level of understanding of this art have little to do with technique." If you have to get bogged down in technique, rigorous study, hard work, and years of discipline, I think you're missing something important.
Well, I came from classical playing and was taught to be disciplined and to work hard on technique.
So when I came to fiddling I approached it that way. Looking back on it, it was a mistake. It was less fun and less productive, and was part of the un-learning process I went through to transition to trad.
When I started learning fiddling I learned from Burke's videos. Overall they're excellent and helped me lots.
But when he introduces rolls he advises people to practice them in isolation, going up and down a scale doing a roll on each finger. I dove right into that, determined to get these rolls down pat before trying to learn to play a reel. After all, you can't play a reel if you can't do the ornaments, right?
But I couldn't do it. I could hear it in my head but I couldn't get my fingers to do it. I spent many, many hours doing this and nearly gave up fiddling altogether because it seemed too hard.
Eventually I just said "feck it" and started playing without the rolls. Instead of attempting them I would just flick a kind of a double cut to try to get some sort of ornament in there when needed.
As I got some tunes down comfortably I started really enjoying them, and I got to where I could play expressively and just let my hands go on autopilot while I focused on the sound. I started really listening to myself.
Guess what started happening? Rolls. Spontaneously.
I couldn't do one in isolation with a gun to my head, but somehow just knowing the sound needed allowed a lift to start coming in with my cut thing.
I never "tried" to do this, I just relaxed and stopped thinking about it and my cuts just started morphing into rolls. Of course it took a while for them to sound good and up to speed, but that just took more playing.
So there you have it, many many hours of hard work ended in failure, and then I got it without any effort at all. I learned by listening and having the right sound in my head, not by thinking about what my hand should be doing and working on it.
Obviously, not everyone learns the same way, and practicing rolls in isolation might be fine for some people. That's not my point. My point is that I have first hand experience that backs up what will and llig have been trying to say.
It's all very Zen. Or Yoda. "Do, or do not. There is no try."
Funny, some classical teachers are even coming around to this approach, at least for some skills. Todd Ehle does a video lesson now on "instant vibrato"--it doesn't work for everyone, but it works for many, and the results are as good or better than the 10,000-hours of trying method.
Actually, I learned vibrato spontaneously too, and I guess I should have learned a lesson from that; I had forgotten about it.
I remember my orchestra teacher saying that some teachers didn't even try to teach vibrato, it just happens after a while. That was 20 years ago, so the idea has been around for a while.
I came from a classical background too. I liked playing in big orchestras and I really like the music. I didn't like follow all the directions, though - all the bows going the same direction, all the little symbols on the page that had to be interpretted and played. All part of classical music, but it got to be too much for me. When I started to play traditional music, it felt very comfortable from the beginning. I suppose I had to unlearn a lot of stuff too but I didn't feel like I was losing anything. The hardest thing to learn was how to listening and I'm still working on that.
I come from a punk rock background. I've never been accused of being a good musician until I started playing this. Even with a crippled left hand, that was not much better than a club, this stuff seemed kinda easy to me. No one told me it was supposed to be hard so I didn't(and don't) see it like that. I see it as folk music. Of course there are many people playing it who are are extraordainarily talented individuals but I don't think that that level of musicianship is required and for my own taste(or lack of) that's not very important to me.
Much of the "practicing" that I did early on was more like physical therepy as a result of my stroke. once movement became easier, quicker and more precise it became quite easy to play tin whistle even though I'd only ever played electric guitar prior to the stroke.
Some people round here regard "folk music" as a dirty pair of words. As if its something their music has to be 'better than'. Not something that they want own up to putting hundreds of hours into. If you look on it as say, 'good music that can be played by sensitive people with gnarled hands and fingers as fat as sausages ' then the simplicity and fun argument is easier to understand. Old time fiddling without the competition influence maybe (I'm trusting Will's view on that).
But I wonder if a west african drummer wouldn't see their own music as 'simple' (in the llig/will sense) and irish music difficult.
When i first replied to this thread I though to myself, ok a chance to show everyone that we can have a mature and intelligent discussion without insults and innuendo, sigh I was wrong. Do any of you notice how quiet this place gets when you start flaming? hmm probably not.
However the invective has faded for the moment so i will return to the discussion in question; in my first post i said this
>>Its beauty is not in its complexity, but in its clarity, precision, flow, melody etc . Yes in a sense, when compared to some types of music it is melodically,and Harmonically simple , but compared to others it is not at all.>>
I then went on to question the motivation behind comparing this music with more formal styles, it seems pointless and puerile IMO.
I find the whole argument faintly ridiculous, simplicity is a completely subjective term , Those here who go on about how easy, and simple it is are really only talking about playing on a specific instrument, the fiddle, in comparison with classical. technique. and of course there are relatively simple classical pieces that require no more technique that relatively simple trad. pieces .
I again ask, what on earth is to be gained by comparing this music with more formal styles? What is the motivation behind this thread?
I dont compare this music with other types because this music is all I have ever known bar a few forays into this and that. compared to punk rock, which is where I come from, its very complicated and technical, compared to playing the bass , the fiddle is a much harder beast to master. so what? its all relative, and means nothing.
Every individual will approach the music from their own perspective and find it hard or easy, Why an individual who finds it easy can go on about it and implicitly denigrate those who find it hard i dont know, possibly to bolster their own ego.?
We are all entitled to our opinions, here we can discuss them, putting down me or my views does not there for raise your position , it actually diminishes it . Let us return to civil discourse. This does not preclude honesty and forthrightness, not at all, it requires it. It precludes insults innuendo, rudeness putting others down, petty games of power and domination . Now on that note I wish you all a very fine day altogether. Anyone who wishes to meet me ca
I answered that one already: The point of comparing this music to other musics of the world - not just classical - is to demonstrate it's relative technical simplicity.
You say it's all relative. I'm agreeing. It is relatively simple. Relative to most of the other musics of the world.
Anyway, what made you briefly change your name back to Jig this morning?
Its relatively simple, but not to 'most' types of music, that is an inaccurate generalisation. and even were it so, what is to be gained by this comparison?
Bob, I think my point about learning new techniques is aptly illustrated by marklar above. 20 yrs ago he was playing in an orchestra, yet when it came to playing trad he had to learn the technique required to roll. Somehow he feels that the lessons from Kevin Burke and the years of effort he put into trying rolls as KB suggests were wasted and that they spontaneously happened. I would see it in a different way; that those efforts resulted in an internalisation of technique which then came out, when he was not focusing on them.
Which of course, in my experience ,is how most advanced skills are learnt,.
The various 'techniques' required to draw good tone and relaxed playing are rehearsed until they become internalised and then 'just happen' in a typical no minded 'play'.
Very good point david, because its pretty obvious they are talking about fiddle music, As any piper will tell you , technique is an absolute prerequisite to play the instrument. Let alone play at a high level!
Not at all. Are you confusing the written music with the actual music, which can only be played on an instrument, It does not exist outside actual live performance[and recordings]
Are you comparing the dots on the paper? because llig will be the first person to tell you the music cant be found there!.
No, clearly music is made by people, on instruments[ which includes the voice].The Music can not be separated from the instrument and the person playing, they are all different aspects of the same thing.
There are a number of different issues getting lumped together here. Structure of musics, The instruments and techniques used to play the music.
What exactly are you saying is easy llig? will? What exactly are you talking about when you say the music is simple? simple to play? or simple structure in relation to some other forms of music? simple/easy to play for you on the fiddle? simple / easy for you to play on the pipes?
Do you mean to use simple to mean easy? What?
A whistle player and a piper both play the same tune .Are you suggestng that there is the same degree of difficulty in playing the same tune ?
The basic tune remains the same.
Yes, Ionnanas, and any flute player will tell you that a good embouchure is a prerequisite to good tone on a flute. But the main point of all advice on how to get there that I have seen has been 'listen to players you want to sound like, listen to yourself, keep practicing' It doesn't 'just happen' after hours of grinding practice. It starts to 'just happen' from day one. And with the right tunes, its fun.
The earlier Japanese calligraphy analogy showed promise though.
By some of the metrics cited here - Sure, it's simple. So is the higher mathematics simple, and for all I know brain surgeons will tell you that their craft is too. Takes a while to learn tho'.
pbassnote says it - "But taken as a whole, Irish music presents enough complexity as to require years of work in order to achieve mastery of its art. It speaks its own unique language with its own deep cultural roots."
Anyway - pbass - I know zero about African music, except that I have heard some that I like very much & was aware in a general sense that some of the rhythms are very complex indeed. I'm not entirely ignorant of jazz & blues. Is either relevant, or are they too far removed ? I'm heading to West Africa shortly. I am hoping to hear some of the genuine article live. Is there anything you could recommend I could listen to before I go ? Anything I could read up on so's I'm not listening with entirely unprepared ears ?
For another thread mebbe, but as an aside I once asked someone who spent many years in S Africa re raising of political consciousness / dissemination of info during the apartheid era - censorship was of course v rigid. Song - was the unequivocal answer. Another aural tradition, clearly !
I've answered that one twice now. But I'm happy to do it again: The point of comparing this music to other musics of the world - not just classical - is to demonstrate it's relative technical simplicity.
(by other musics I can list Classical - including modern avante guard, romantic classical, baroque etc - Jazz (all forms), Popular musicals, Opera, Klezmer, Eastern European tarditional, Indian Traditional, Chinese traditional, Most African traditional, Middle Eastern traditional etc)
What's the point of wanting to demonstrate Irish Music's relative simplicity? Two reasons. One, to demonstrate that great music, high art, does not need to be technically complex. Two, to discourage people from thinking it is difficult ... on any instrument.
Of course that depends on the person playing! the tune is not played the same by either, musically or physically, and the difference of skill required to produce good tone and playing are considerable. its much much harder to maintain a set of pipes, so the very ground upon which you play; the instruments set up ,[ as a piper], is not easy or simple.
david, I do play you know, you are mistaken, ok for the flute, the whistle ... day 1 its easy. its fun. try the pipes, then come and tell me.
there is no such thing as 'grinding' practice, its simply practice. you practice, i practice. WHAT we practice will be different because we play different instruments at different levels , we have different goals and we are different people.
There you go again llig, you have absolutely no experience as a piper do you? none, zilch, Ive been playing many years, so You are someone who cant, telling me, who can, how easy it is.
Technique is the how, art is the what. we all share similar techniques for walking, running, . they are about balance, momentum etc, the physical act of walking, is esay now, for me, If you have a broken leg it is not. If you have spent time in a wheelchair you would understand that because walking is easy, and taken for granted by many, it does not mean it is for all.
Of course art does not need to be technically complex, but that simply doesnt therefore mean that all high art is not technically complex.And what is technically complex is directly related to the capacity of the person making the art . Complexity is relative.
llig, could you just list a few things that irish music doesn't have that more technically complex music does have ? Some I can work out:
Its not polyphonic (if that's the right word), which for me is a major plus point. It doesn't rely on cross rhythms in the 'counting' sense. It very rarely uses more than 8 notes over each doubling in pitch, often less. What else ?
There are things in other musics that need evidence to show they are less simple, rather then just less familiar. The Balkan rhythms that Ionnanas goes on about for example. And things like the eastern scales - are they objectively hard or is it just what we are used to ?
Marklar, the thing is, you think bobby Gardiner said something stupid, I think it was infact you. I really respect Bobby as one of the premier players in the world, the temerity and arrogance to condemn what he says as stupid, from a rank beginner, relatively, amazes me. of course you are entitled to your view point, but personally I respect the views of someone who has been there and done it, so to speak I may not agree with it, or I may , but That is besides the point, I respect the music words opinions and views of the old masters.
IMO if you want good advice regarding the making and learning of traditional Irish music, you want to listen to the words of a respected master, not a few shadowy figures on the internet who may or may not be able to play to anything but a rudimentary level. That is why I quote and continue to quote people like Bobby Gardiner, Jackie Daly, Kevin Burke. Because these people have shown us that they really do know what they are talking about.
Its not a call to higher authority at all, simply common sense.
i agree fully with Oisin as well, IMO technical display is of no intrinsic value. The techniques we have to use to play trad are there purely to facilitate personal expression through the medium of the music we love. What i disagree with is will interpretation of what oisin said.
>>:there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. <<
No where does he compare classical music with Irish music, its not there lads, you are imagining it. read his words, think about what he is saying.
I play with Eastern European rhythms and in Eastern European/ Arabic scales. they are no more or less complex than trad. Just different. I play some bach, it is no more complex than trad, just different. In my experience.
Where did I say all high art is not technically complex?
David, yes to the list you started. It's not polyphonic (except for the occasional drone or double stop). The rhythms are very regular and in multiples of only 2 and 3. No polyrhythms and no compound time signatures. It rarely uses more than 7 notes in an octave and rarely uses more than two octaves. It rarely modulates and even when it does, it moves to a key/mode containing most of the same notes. In the case of the simple system flute and fiddle, it almost never moves beyond the notes that are the easiest to get. The length of the tunes are very very short and even within themselves are often very repetitive. The length of a typical piece of music, three tunes, is very short.
(I grew up with a piper, we learned fiddle and pipes together. I know the pipes (Irish pipes) and pipe music inside out. They are nowhere near as difficult as they are often made out to be.)
Might shock a few fellers here with agreeing.... I don't think the music is simple technically or in any other sense of the word... and this coming from an extensive background in playing other genres, including classical. Sometimes what appears or sounds simple is the hardest to master.
What drew me to the music wasn't it's "simplicity". In fact, I was still starting out on violin, at age 9, when I first heard the Chieftains and some old cassette tape of a session my friend gave me (dont' know where that went). I remember the music just hooking me. I was obsessed with it, but kept on with my classical, because, well, I was a little kid, and that's what I was supposed to do. All these years later, when I listen to it, it still snags me. I can't explain it. Sorry for the cheesey metaphor that could be in a Hallmark shop, but it sings to my soul. And when I play it, whether by ear or from dots, it makes me feel at peace. That, to me, is not simple at all.
I think a large part of will and llig's point is that if you treat this music like it is difficult, you will find it difficult to play.
If you think of it as simple, then you can focus your energy on the subtleties of making it sound and feel right, instead of getting engrossed in drills and exercises to hone the "difficult" technical skills. This music isn't about technical prowess, it's about feel and expression.
If the mountain you have to climb, in your mind, is a huge mountain, you will spend your time worrying about whether you can climb the mountain. If the mountain in your mind is a mere hill, then you'll climb up it easily, and spend your time exploring what you find (which is generally that there is another hill behind the crest of the last one)
Fiddlechick, as Jig keeps pointing out, simple is relative. So it's up to you to decide whether you think the music is simple or not. However, you cannot disagree that diddley music is a relatively simple muisc. For the reasons I listed above.
Rev, of course part of my point is that if you treat this music like it is difficult, you will find it difficult to play. And that if you find it difficult to play, you will make it sound difficult, which is not what you want to be doing. But more important than that, it actually is simple ... relatively.
so you say that if a rank beginner picks up the pipes they will find trad easy to play because you say it is! LOL or a fiddle or any instrument . They may find it easy to play badly, which Ive said all along, and i agree, it is easy to play badly. To play it well, well that is not so easy. You think you play well ?
So you've played with a piper have you llig? So you know how easy or hard it is! Thats a joke, you haven't a clue. You might think you have but you haven't. Jeez Ive played with all sorts of musicians, doesnt mean I have the faintest conception of what is actually entailed .
Rev I understand llig and wills point, it is hardly complex[ to me] . In some regards I agree, the way you approach something, the positive or negative mindset are very important. But they go far beyond that.
Yes superficial aspects of various types of music how many notes in the bar etc etc may be more or less simple or complex, but to play any music well requires skill and dedication, persistence and effort. To suggest otherwise is misleading.
IMO it is a completely meaningless to compare the superficial aspects of music making.
However compared to punk rock for example trad is very complex. Does that somehow mean ~Im correct that trad is not simple but relatively complex ? . No of course not. It is both, and neither. It just is, and pointless posturing regarding how easy it all is or how difficult it all is will not help anyone.
I disagree with llig and will, thats ok yes? I dont treat music as difficult, Ive been playing every day for 35 yrs,. I accept that If i find something hard, then it is. Because Its all relative to the individual musicians skill. Deluding myself that something is easy? When for me or others it is not? is fantasy. I dont see the point in creating fantasies to delude myself with. I prefer honest open minded and realistic assessment of the various issues involved. Comparatively speaking western boxing is simple; all you do is hit each other with your fists. Easy ?! ho ho ho.
If you've been playing every day for 35 years and you think that trad music is difficult or complex, well, that right there shows that there's something seriously lacking in your approach and understanding of the music.
Stop pretending to be something that you're not. You're more transparent than you think.
What on earth are you on about Marklar, ? When Have i ever said trad is difficult? I simply argue for the thousands who find it hard. Im not pretending anything , you just appear to be fooling yourself. You telling me trad is easy are you? so ahh that means you play it well ? or its just easy to play badly.?
As it happens you will find playing trad on the Pipes hard, actually I doubt you can, so then you are some one who cant do something, telling me, who can , how easy it is?
If you are talking from your perspective as a classical violinist approach trad on the instrument you have played 20 yrs and telling us how easy it is, well then for you it probably is,but to what level?
My point all along, that to play trad at a high level, like JD etc is not easy, it requires a lifetime of dedication and persistence. OK if you want to play like a 2 yr novice scratching tune away , then maybe they find it easy? I dont know. That is not what I do or am interested in.
It isn't a choice between playing like a master or playing like a novice. This tradition is mostly made up of people with mediocre ability who enjoy playing the music and don't find it particularly difficult. I think that is what you fail to understand.
These great players that you're so obsessed with are an important part of the tradition, but they are the exceptions. For the most part this music isn't about playing at that level or even attempting to. It's about enjoying some tunes in your kitchen with friends and family or down at the local session. That's what it's about, and it isn't hard.
>>It's about enjoying some tunes in your kitchen with friends and family or down at the local session. That's what it's about, >>
Im not obsessed with these great players marklar, its just that sometimes I find them down at the local session, so If I want to play trad with my mates, I need to be able to at least not drag them down! happy now?
So we have different experiences of what sessions are, doesnt mean our experience is any less or more, just different. dont judge me by your standards and experience, because you dont know me or my experience and I will offer you the same courtesy.
It is stunning how jig pretends that he alone is taking the high road here and then he fills his posts with insults, intentional misrepresentations of what other people have said, and outright statements that anyone who disagrees with him is stupid.
Right down to continuing this charade that he isn't jig, despite the obvious. And as though we haven't heard those clips of him attempting to play simple tunes and not being able to even keep time let alone play well. Yet here he is insisting that working hard at his craft is what made him such a high level player and we're all stupid for suggesting that there's a more effective way to approach learning this music.
My observations of this "simplicity" thing:
When I relax, and tell myself: "this is easy," it is. Sounds better.
When I tell myself: "bowstrokes, longer, shorter, faster, etc" it is harder. and sounds like crap.
When crossing over from classical to traditional styles, I observed little kids, old farts, all playing double stops with ease. They were difficult for me, probably hearkening back to that Kreutzer (sp?) etude... While those that have never played an etude in their life, just tunes, breeze through it. No big deal.
Im really not interested in your slander will. you simply started this thread to cause trouble didnt you? At least some of us here have been able to talk about the music before you pop back in here with your ugly aggressive attitude. You are bringing the tone of this site down with your continued petty vendetta. Good night.
Jig, I started this thread because I found an interesting quote from a player whom I admire.
In your first post on this thread, you "instructed" me on how confused my thinking was, and you've since called anyone here who disagrees with you "stupid."
You've also lied your way back onto the board.
Answer one simple question. How is this behavior of yours not aggressive and lowering the tone?
LOL, what jig actually did was revert to his old "jig" membership, but change the name from "jig" to "Ionannas."
What would be so wrong about admitting who you are? Is it because you snuck onto the board under another alias during a time when Jeremy had banned you, and you don't want to be caught? Or is it because the old "jig" persona had been shot full of too many holes and had no credibility any more? What?
Will, thanks for your input. I also appreciate that you are totally upfront and honest about who you are.
We'd love to have you at a session down here. We are learners (except for our "leaders"), all classically trained, gone to the "dark side."
Watching these threads develop is interesting (O.K., I have no life), especially the tantrums that emerge. One can almost hear the feet stamping, and the doors slamming.
ha!
It seems to me that there is a degree of unnecessary invective creeping in.
Pity.
I think it actually gets in the way of convincing people of the merits of particular standpoints, if that is the objective of the discussion.
For my own part, I have come to an appreciation of what I think llig means when he refers to "Simplicity". My intitial reaction was to disagree quite strongly.
.......AND in the LEFT corner - Winner of his First All Ireland Championship at the age of 2, and UNDEFEATED in 547 Successive Fleadhanna Cheoil Since - In the Treble Clef Shorts.....
A simple ITM formula:
interest + listening + application = playing ITM music
(interest + listening + application) x increasing time frame = understanding and playing ITM music well.
Simple, yes?
Sigh. Does it really matter if Ionannas is jig ? Its what he says now that matters, not settling old scores (unless you have scores to settle I suppose). I have never been in a good bar room debate without some wriggling and twisting of views going on.
David, from the outset, jig's approach on this board has been to label others as "stupid" or as "poor" players if they disagree with him. When his own sound clips demonstrated that his playing didn't match up to his on-screen boasting, he became even more insulting.
Rather than engage in dialogue, he argues, endlessly, often contradicting himself in the process (see his first post on this thread for a clear example). He got kicked off once for this behavior, then snuck back on under a second membership and is heading down the same path as before.
I think this matters, unless you prefer a board where this sort of behavior is acceptable.
Sean, I'm not after convincing people of my view--I'd much rather have a fun conversation about the pros and cons of different ways to think about this music. But that's nigh impossible when one person repeatedly insults, misrepresents others' comments, and misleads about their own abilities.
It's one thing to disagree based on reasons. It's another to endlessly face garbage like: "As it happens you will find playing trad on the Pipes hard, actually I doubt you can, so then you are some one who cant do something, telling me, who can , how easy it is?" That's not discussion, and it drags the whole board down.
I'd say you have too many balls.
Start off with about 3. There is a really fun way for 2 people to pass 3 juggling rings back & forth. I have yet to meet anyone who could not do it in just a short time. It can be used as an intro to juggling.
Will, I don't think Ionnanas is setting out to be deliberatley unpleasant or start fights. He has't been popping up on every single thread giving advice the way jig did. This thread was obviously a subject that he has strong views on. And in a situation where there was a bartender around to change the subject or say 'keep your voices down guys' when tempers get raised it wouldn't be problem.
Thats just the way it look from this corner of the bar.
Im not interested in the pointless meta thread running through this thread about music. Im interested in answers to simple questions pertaining to simplicity and complexity of skill performance Ie juggling, fiddling, boxing, walking, guitar playing, banjo playing, Piping, whistling, drumming, etc etc that is what we are here to discuss is it not? Why not keep off subject personal stuff to a minimum eh?
I have a session mate who is both a good player & a poor player.
I love listening to her when she simply * lets the tunes happen*.
There are times, though, when she tries (or concentrates) too hard. Then there is more tension & here playing is off.
My guess is it is about her finding peace of mind rather than improving technique.
There's an interesting one further up a bit (I've been out for a meal and the cinema):
Jig is talking about playing in sessions with "famous" people and saying that he doesn't want to "drag them down". Then he says something eminently reasonable: "So we have different experiences of what sessions are, doesnt mean our experience is any less or more." (the "our" is funny though ... kind of like a royal "we")
But then the killer quote comes: "dont judge me by your standards."
The full quote is''So we have different experiences of what sessions are, doesnt mean our experience is any less or more, just different. dont judge me by your standards and experience, because you dont know me or my experience and I will offer you the same courtesy.>>
You really seem impervious to argument, simply engaging in peurile name calling, inuendo , and Insinuation.
I was not talking about famous people, llig just some of the guys at the session.so If I want to pay in the local sessions I have to be good. Its that simple. Since the lads welcome me back I have to assume that I am doing OK. I let the folk I play with judge me , as they do, not some shadowy figure on the internet thanks.
Its a typical pattern here, Once your argument is shown to be weak and full of holes the insults and innuendo start, developing into a kind of feeding frenzy, where all chance of reasonable debate is sucked into your vortex of unpleasantness. Yuck. That is why I change identity here, to avoid this petty bullsh*t from people who should know better. Anyone can read this thread and see exactly where the insults and aggression are coming from.
"so you say that if a rank beginner picks up the pipes they will find trad easy to play because you say it is! "
Nope, never said that.
"So you've played with a piper have you llig?"
Nope, never said that. I said I grew up with one as we learned together. My best friend. Very very big difference.
"No where does he [Oisin Mac Diarmada] compare classical music with Irish music, its not there lads, you are imagining it. read his words."
The opening post from Oisin Mac Diarmada: "Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries".
"so you say that if a rank beginner picks up the pipes they will find trad easy to play because you say it is! "
Nope, I never said that.
"So you've played with a piper have you llig?"
Nope, never said that either. I said I grew up with one as we learned together. My best friend. Very very big difference.
"No where does he [Oisin Mac Diarmada] compare classical music with Irish music, its not there lads, you are imagining it. read his words."
The opening post from Oisin Mac Diarmada: "Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries".
Someone makes a fairly sensible but firm statement about some aspect of Irish music.
Jig jumps in to say that that statement is completely wrong, and his expertise leads him to say that something completely different is true, and that thing is usually clearly wrong to anyone who knows the subject, or at least questionable.
Someone calls BS on Jig, because he is the one who's clearly wrong.
Then Jig pounces. He responds with a very indignant and sometimes angry post saying that he is clearly right, and listing about 10 different nonsensical arguments for why he is right.
Now blood is in the water, and people start picking apart his bogus claims. And Jig just sits there and shovels coal into the fire, becoming more angry and insulting with every post, except for the odd posts where he seems to try to be friendly or amusing.
And this can go on for days and hundreds of posts, turning perfectly innocent threads into verbal bloodsport, and drowning out any relevant discussion that might be going on. And I'm tired of it.
I say we stop feeding the troll. Obviously nothing that has been done so far has done anything to solve this problem. He will not go away and Jeremy seems unable to keep him away.
When he again offers some really wrong-headed advice or statement, just call the BS and walk away. Don't respond to his inevitable baiting, that just gets the ball rolling. Attacking him or continuing to pick him apart just fuels the fire.
He is talking about using ITM to display virtuoso technique . He is not comparing the structure of the music is he? He is not comparing the technique used in trad to the techniques in other types of music. He is not making any comparison, read it again. His is saying simply;
<<Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries.>>
so many balls, so few hands...
sheesh, I go walk the dog and come back to this...
hahahahaha. yep no life.
same old same old.
feeding THIS troll, the new "Asian" chicken at Wendy's isn't too bad!!!
I suspect when Jeremy gets back from holiday and sees what a contribution jig has made after hacking duplicate memberships, he'll award him a medal....
Until then, it really is pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with him. So I suggest starving the troll and am off doing something constructive.
Apart from where you twist the truth marklar, as you are the third person on this specific thread to come on and be directly insulting. Any -one interested Everything said tonight is clearly written out above.
Apart from that its quite good advice really, If you think what I say is BS, you say it. Thats good because that is exactly what I do. If you think the Advice of Bobby Gardiner is ' stupid' as you said ???!!!! , your entitled to your opinion and the same goes for anyone here. Feel free to speak your mind, just refrain from uncivil behaviour. '' Being Insulting, aggressive ,abusive, rude ,unpleasant etc Thats it isn't it Jeremy?
With regard to your post above,Ioanannas:
I've read the sentence: 'Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries.' a few times now and I do think it is indeed a comparison of 'the technique used in trad to the techniques in other types of music.'
And I would guess it's a specific reference to the great classical solo players of those times.
I do think he is comparing the techniques used in classical violin music to Irish trad.
After all,the very next sentence reads: 'They wouldn't have found material in Irish music to demonstrate their technical skills'.
Anyway,I liked that quote from Oisin Mac Diarmada.
I also liked the Reverend's post as regards hills and mountains.
In connection with regarding something as easy or difficult I can offer the following...
When sight reading something 'difficult' it is entirely possible to get a passage near(and I stress the 'near') perfect.The more it's rehearsed the more time you get to think how difficult it is with the corresponding reduction in accuracy.
That's been my experience.
So state of mind is everything,as they say.
"Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries. They wouldn't have found material in Irish music to demonstrate their technical skills. But there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."
You still reckon Dave? Surely the first sentence has to be taken in relation to the full quote? and that to the interview at the time.
To my mind he is clearly talking about keeping trad simple with out using it to display virtuoso technique. That is the crux of his quote. IMO He is talking about feeling in music being the essence and technique being just a route for expression. He is saying that the real traditional Music contains feeling. Its not something superficial, its not about whether you can play a roll like Kevin Burke, or have a ' traditional fiddle style' Its not about virtuoso display. Its about sharing tunes and enjoyment, sharing the music and our love for it. Thats what he is talking about IMO.
Yes,I know what he is saying and I thought it was pretty clear.
It's just that you said:'He is not comparing the technique used in trad to the techniques in other types of music. He is not making any comparison'. in your earlier post.
I just read the opposite meaning to your statement-that was why I posted.
Ya know, don't be bustin' on the complexity of punk rock. I know a classical pianist who can't play fckin' 'Louie Louie' if his life depended on it! Sounds like a church hym when he tries to play it.
IONANNAS --It's easy to play any music badly and it's hard to play any form of music at a virtuosso level. If you're saying that Irish dance tunes MUST be played at virtuosso level or they don't qualify as Irish trad than I disagree. It's folk music. It's played by FOLK. Some FOLK play better than others but all are playing Irish trad.
Hi Jig long time no see.
You should post those clips of you playing in your biog, so people can take things with a grain of salt.
I'm not going to speak for llig or will as others have done.
Up until very recently I was only able to switch off. To relax. I'm noticing a lot of improvements in my own playing . I'm having a lot of fun more too. I can hear it in my own music.
I was all stiff when I played, so I'd think about it, and it'd get worse. It took me ages to relax. I think I'm getting there. But I like that about diddley - there's no rush for me. I'll get there. I'm relaxed and I'm enjoying it. Its not hard work. Its not blood sweat and tears, and I don't play every day. I can't.
I play when I can, to relax, to zone out. I play a session with deadly muso's - much better than me, but they enjoy my enjoyment and me finding myself and my own sound. That's what its all about - for me.
There's a lot to be said about listening, but also watching.
I don't think the mindset here is hard work.
It kind of looks effortless to PC.
Sounds deadly too.
Maybe as you say he spent years working on the technique, but I honestly don't think he did. Years of playing in his house, playing tunes with his friends and enjoying it? Yeah, I think so. If it was all about technique and hard work, why in the name of Jaysus would you bother?
Hugo, your bio says you're learning flute--that's a great one for relaxing into, the breathing nearly "forces" you to relax or you won't get any air, eh? And the breathing itself clears your head.
You wrote: "It's difficult to learn any new instrument at first. I think that once you relax and enjoy it, discipline and technique (if there is any) just happen."
I tend to find that the relaxing and enjoying part, started right at the beginning, make it easy to learn a new instrument. And any potential for frustration just evaporates. It's a bit like managing pain (me, mending from a broken leg)--take the pain killers *before* you feel the ache, and then the pain never builds up.
Playing music doesn't have to hurt, physically or emotionally, ever.
No worries, tone is less about air than air stream. Funny, but one of the best things you can do for tone on flute is yawn (talk about relaxing). Remember what it feels like when you whole mouth and throat open up in a yawn, and then keep that feel behind a tiny little embouchure, and you'll get the reedy honk you're after.
But you no doubt already know this. Flute's a gas.
I have no interest in this row (it is a bit pedantic, arguing over the meaning of "difficulty" and "simplicity" with the odd insults thrown in) but I thought I'd point out that I do understand the pressure one might feel to be of a high musical standard in order to fit in or get on at certain sessions. There are places where unless you are of a standard to have the same musical conversation as everyone else, you'll be perennially treated as an outsider.
Simplcity and difficulty are all relative but yeah, it is simpler than classical. Have you ever looked at a piano concerto? Eeek. Also, when you start *anything* new, be it an instrument, rock climbing, horse riding, whatever, it's HARD.
I added at the end that things will get easier, especially when you're passionate about it, and also that it is far easier to attain basic competence playing folk music than other genres. But it gets complicated by loads of variables, like you're own time, motivation, previous musical experience, hard wiring etc. I think you can make cautious generalizations about the ease of playing Irish music relative to classical but still accept that some people will find it easier or harder than others.
Like anything that's basically simple, some people do it fantastically well.
I guess those are the "stars"we are looking at while lying in the gutter a la Oscar Wilde.
Some fine times to be had in the gutter though ... you can enjoy a traditional tune played by someone of limited ability if it has spirit and oomph or the circumstances are conducive
I don't think you can say the same of a piano concerto
I like the way threads like this often generate a nugget of interesting info that might otherwise not be mentioned. Even though I don't understand half of the points he is trying to make, perhaps Ionannas/Jig, by being an antagonist, goads people into clearly expressing some interesting ideas.
I especially liked Marklar's post about only getting rolls after he stopped trying so hard. I am sure, however, that his practice of the rolls, in the long run, was part of the reason they started appearing in his music. I have had his experience many times with instruments, I drill drill drill, put it aside, and later go back and find, "Oh, there it is!"
I remember someone saying that he worked very hard so that his music would sound effortless. Like many discussions on this board, this issue comes down to two different extremes, work versus play, which are both important to being a musician. You need to have structure and basic techniques, but you also have to have fun and enjoy what you are doing. The trick is finding the right balance as you constantly improve.
So my answer to the question is that both sides are right--to some degree, that is. Taking the middle ground is not as much fun as fighting, but it is usually where the best answer lies.
From my early experience playing music (piano lessons) it was demonstrated to me how hard work may often be counterproductive.
My piano teacher was keen on recognizing when I was labouring too much on a piece. She'd recommend I give it time to rest & pick it up again later. I always seemed to be better at picking up pieces this way rather than the ones' which I would practice endlessly. Not to say I don't do lots & lots of woodshedding.
Hopefully it all invigorates me, not simply zap my energy.
A friend once described ITM to me as Simple Music played by simple minded people. Of course I didn't agree. An awful lot of it is complicated and hard to learn, but on reflection he was probably expressing the views of the great unwashed, and like it or not, there are more of them than there are of us....Just look at the music of U2 for instance. One of the biggest bands in the world. Their shows are instant 'sell outs' and thousands queue for hours just to watch them on giant TV screens. Unfortunately their music is so complicated and hard to learn that try as I may, I just can't play one of their tunes on the accordion, in fact I can't even whistle the 'air' of any of their tunes...... God...why did you make me such a simple minded fool?
As an aside, A temporary diversion.
I do recall a big argument developing over a bottle of the White Whisky, as I recall yer man cycled away with the bottle, fell of his bike and smashed it. Moral? , he should have stayed and shared it with all the folk round the fire! Just because some one else had paid for it! tsk Would only have been 4 punt or so.! and it just soaked away into his overcoat, sigh.
LOL. I think everyone on this site likes to banter. It's really rather amusing to browse the threads for some good, solid philosophical and/or "lite" conversation on interesting topics and see the whole thread turn into my bow is bigger than yours and you are right or wrong, yada, yada, yada.
If you can't take it, then don't dish it out, right?
I'm wondering, since I obviously haven't been here long enough to know.... why have certain people been banned before? I'm curious to know what people can possibly say or do that I haven't seen someone post already and not be banned...... ;)
Oh, and LIig, I actually agree with you for once! I also see it as a bit relative. Been accused quite often of being a "sophist" for that outlook. My experience is that I don't find music "simple" in the literal, denotative definition of the word. Maybe what some see as "simple" is really in place of the word "free"??
There have been a few (fabricated) user names which have come up to rant about the site &/or the founder. Those threads get deleted.
Some threads have not been deleted but certain comments (within the thread) were omitted. Can make for an interesting read.
Presumably discussions about discussions (meta threads) are forbidden & may or may not be edited/deleted.
We're supposed to submit only discussions relevant to ITM
. . .
The banter has been here everyday.
Jeremy, & others, come & go.
People get suspended for violating Jeremy's "be civil" rule. But Jeremy's interpretation of that rule isn't always clear or apparently consistent. Case in point, Michael was recently suspended for replying to a question with "What a stupid question." Yet the same sort of language is tolerated at other times (including on this thread, although my hunch is that Jeremy is just away from the site for a few days).
jig was banned for repeatedly losing his temper. He snuck back on under the Ion membership, which was obvious from the start, and has now moved himself back into the jig membership using the Ion name. Normally, when someone hides behind two memberships, Jeremy gives them the boot for good. But who knows.
There was an excellent discussion, cannot find it now, which was not omitted. But . . . all of the comments of 1 member were deleted.
Interesting thing is the person who submitted the discussion was the one who had his comments removed.
The way I could tell was from the 1st post which began as a response {Re: ITM title}. That & a particular user name kept being mentioned but I couldn't connect it w/any of the previous posts.
This site contributes to alot of popcorn being eaten & many glasses of wine being spilt.
I also helps to bear in mind that some of us have been here for years and have long back histories with other folks. For good and bad. But I've met and made the best of friends among other members here--sometimes the banter is just that, slagging among good friends.
"There once was a fella named Trad
And sometimes his spelling was bad
But with thousands of posts and some curious boasts
It sent Llig and all raving mad'
As witty as our poet is in Arizona I belief it was Mr.T_Day who hit the nail on the head.
Just don't ask me to search for that thread. The subject is simplicity. Is it not?
Why is simplicity considered an insult by some?
Simple is Beautiful.
A single wildflower stuck in a glass. A white pebble on the white sand.
This music could be considered simple because the heart of it can often be contained in four to eight measures. As opposed to the 128 measures (each different, and subtly building/repeating the last phrase) of a Beethoven concerto, complete with its ten different 'voices' of orchestral instruments, etc.Not to mention the three different movements of said concerto...
I love this music because it's simple, because it can call to mind a stream in the woods or sunlight through the trees, because it reminds one of simple friendly gatherings and everything that is down to earth and from the earth. Because you can hum along with it.
"Tis a gift to be simple, tis a gift to be free..."
The Simplicity of This Music
The Simplicity of This Music
I just stumbled across this quote from fiddler Oisin Mac Diarmada, in Strings Magazine (May 2005). It resonated with what Michael and I were saying in another thread, and I thought it was worth repeating here.
"Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries. They wouldn't have found material in Irish music to demonstrate their technical skills. But there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."
There's some irony in Oisin saying this--I tend to think of him as an exponent of the more technical side of Irish fiddling. His Sligo playing is chock full of rolls, triplet runs, fourth finger cuts, and melodic triplets, with near-continuous and subtle variations. So if he thinks of this as comparatively simple music, I'm happy to as well.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Just ask any classical fiddler how simple trad is, they are very likely to agree with you, yet somehow there are few who can actually play it without learning a whole bunch of techniques.... strange that ,if its so simple.
Where does Sean McGuire fit in with this generalisation then? He was pretty flashy no? using tunes like the Masons apron to display his skills as a fiddler.
Personally I think you are reading into Oisins comment what you want to hear. IMO He is talking about keeping it simple, as opposed to the music being simple
>>''.there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."<<
Pointing out thats its beauty is not in its complexity, but in its clarity, precision, flow, melody etc . Yes in a sense, when compared to some types of music it is melodically,and Harmonically simple , but compared to others it is not at all.
For example the chord patterns can contain 2 or 3 chords, so in a sense they are simple, but the actual patterns can be complex and intricate and defy all but those who have put in the groundwork.
Just because something is simple does not mean it is easy, you are confusing 2 seperate issues.
Try freehand Japanese calligraphy! a simple circle for example, correctly done can be seen as the height of the art. Simple yes easy? not even for a master!
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
In the same article, Oisin also says "Traditional musicians have a built-in defense against over-technicalization."
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
"melodically and harmonically simple"
Just shows how little you know about this music.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
“Just ask any classical fiddler how simple trad is, they are very likely to agree with you, yet somehow there are few who can actually play it without learning a whole bunch of techniques”
Hmmm. Seems to me it’s more a matter of *un*learning technique.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Bob himself
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Yes it is simple. Melodically simple compared to the complexities of Eastern (ie., Indian, or Asian with their 1/4-tone scales) melody. Harmonically simple as compared to the stacked chordal harmonies of Debussy, Ravel, or modern jazz. Rhythmically simple as compared to West African poly-rhythmic (ie., 3/4 and 12/8 simultaneous metered music) drum ensembles, or the rapid and varied meter and tempi changes one might find in the music of Aaron Copland. Formally simple when compared to anything beyond AABB form (even a Sousa march). Tonally simple in that Irish music rarely ventures beyond three sharps or flats key signatures, and usually restricts the melodies to less than two octaves total range. Even somewhat ornamentally restrictive compared to the range of ornamentation available to most instruments in others genres (ie., is the trill, glissando, flutter-tongue, string-bend, harmonics, etc ever really purposely used in Irish music?)
But taken as a whole, Irish music presents enough complexity as to require years of work in order to achieve mastery of its art. It speaks its own unique language with its own deep cultural roots.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by pbassnote
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Not at all, every type of music has its twists and turns which are unique, and required techniques to produce these sounds.
unlearning, i googled it and came here; http://www.unlearning.org/
Scary!
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
pbassnote, what I was getting at was the harmonic or modal ambiguities common in this music.
But you've well illustrated Oisin's point, thanks.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Wow. Im impressed, well put pbassnote.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Still, I think what Oisin's getting at is how little technical proficiency is needed to play this music. In the space of a few quotes, he mentions "technical" aspects three times as something that's not a feature of this music, relative to more formal musics. This from a fiddler who started winning contests at 8 (which would seem to indicate that he was as technically proficient as one would need to be in this music).
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
From the Institute for unlearning:
Instead of flooding your mind with information, misinformation and disinformation, regular exposure to this website is designed to destroy many of the filters that mainstream reality depends upon for its success. Secondarily, and perhaps more importantly, this website will strive to foster your own creative powers by helping you to develop the tools necessary to navigate the uncharted "waters" of a truly "open-ended" reality, whose dangers are no less real than the world from which you've just emerged.
Sounds like they stole the modus operandi of the mustard board!
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by leoj
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
The point being, of course, that the years of playing you effortlessly travel through which enables you to achieve some level of understanding of this art have little to do with technique. The technical part is a tiny proportion of what this music is. And it's one of the reasons I love it.
But you'll never get this point across to Jig. Never ever. There is simply nothing to be done with someone who, when given a straight forward premise: "You can't find material in Irish music to demonstrate technical skills", says "He is talking about keeping it simple, as opposed to the music being simple".
I'm sorry, but the bloke's brain just doesn't work properly.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
What on earth is the point in comparing this music to ''more formal musics.'' By which you presumably mean 'classical'?
Im curious, It really seems meaningless to me. Simplicity is relative and hardly even a valid concept in the case of music and art anyhow.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
>>''.there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."<<
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
The point of comparing this music to other musics of the world - not just classical - is to demonstrate it's relative technical simplicity.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
>>''.there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."<<
Indeed.
And Oisin, speaking as a well-respected Irish fiddler as well as a trained classical pianist (uni in Dublin) knows this as well as anybody.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I love this bit from jig's first post on this thread:
"Pointing out thats its beauty is not in its complexity, but in its clarity, precision, flow, melody etc . Yes in a sense, when compared to some types of music it is melodically,and Harmonically simple , but compared to others it is not at all.
For example the chord patterns can contain 2 or 3 chords, so in a sense they are simple, but the actual patterns can be complex and intricate and defy all but those who have put in the groundwork"
In short, jig is saying that the music is beautiful because it's simple, but only the technically proficient can reveal the music's complexity.
LOL.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
ha, yeah, That is what was said. But me thinks that was not what he meant. ha ha
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
And this is a really good quote. Starkly unambiguous:
''there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."
And yet why did Jig quote it with no explanation? It states quite succinctly the opposite of his argument. What does he think it means?
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
No, jig keeps coming back to his pet theory that you can play this music well only if you've spent eons slaving away at the technical aspects, playing scales and arpeggios, honing the twiddly bits separate from the tunes, etc. I'm guessing that for him, this has been true, so he thinks it holds true for everyone else. And he can't believe that other people can learn to play this music well without eons of exercises and drills and working hard at their craft.
My gawd, the man has banged guitar chords and twiddled on mandolin with Jacky Daly. He must be brilliant. No one else here has ever played with a "name" player, or anyone who might actually be good at this music, right? And Oisin Mac Diarmada obviously doesn't know anything.
(wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
Sigh.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
It must be difficult to keep everything straight when you post under aliases and false pretenses, when you're not sure whether you've played fiddle for 15 years or 20, and whether you actually play the pipes or they play you....
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I just like it.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by richrua
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Amazing. jig finally posted a snippet of info in his profile under Ion. Funny, it says much the same as his bio under jig. What a coinkydink.
Here's where we'll head if this eejit is allowed to lie his way back onto the board as he's done: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18070
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Wow.
"In my own teaching I believe you have to give everything you have, show your students your full technique. I always begin with staff notation; nowadays with so much traditional music written down it is important for young payers to have the key to the library as it were." -- jig, AKA Ionannas
Good grief, I feel sorry for these students if there actually ever were any. The "payers" thing is funny, Freudian slip?
If only jig would stop trying to pretend to be something that he's not. Those who know little but pretend to know all will never learn a damn thing.
But back to the subject. In old-time fiddling I hear lots and lots of fiddlers who concentrate very hard on technical displays to the point where it just ruins the tunes completely. I guess it's the corruption of "contest style." IMHO fiddle contests have absolutely killed old-time, but I won't go into that here.
That sort of thing doesn't really exist in Irish trad very much, which is one of the reasons I like it better than old-time. I listen to music to enjoy the music, not to be impressed with the musicians.
And the most impressive musicians are typically the ones who use their skill to bring out the beauty of a tune, rather than showing off as many bells and whistles as they can possibly bolt onto the tune.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
i just like it
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by richrua
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
LOL, I just had a look at that link... that quote was from'' bobby Gardiner''
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Do you not remember quoting from Bobby Gardiner?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Ugh, I just read through that thread, I had forgotten about it. Now I remember why I stopped coming here, and yet again here I am being sucked into jig's vortex of stupidity again. Back to lurking...
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
llig, he was talking to me, I forgot that jig was quoting someone else and attributed it to him.
I still think it's a stupid thing to say, no matter who said it. Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean they're always right. I'm pretty sure that Bobby Gardiner didn't learn to play from dots.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Me too, richrua. I also like the simple pleasures of life that go with it. Meeting up with friends to play tunes. Having a couple of pints, maybe some food, hopefully some dancing. Many laughs. Its not too technical in my opinion. I think the first paragraph of llig's first post on this thread says it best - "the years of playing you effortlessly travel through which enables you to achieve some level of understanding of this art have little to do with technique." If you have to get bogged down in technique, rigorous study, hard work, and years of discipline, I think you're missing something important.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Well, I came from classical playing and was taught to be disciplined and to work hard on technique.
So when I came to fiddling I approached it that way. Looking back on it, it was a mistake. It was less fun and less productive, and was part of the un-learning process I went through to transition to trad.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
One more point and I'll try to shut up, honest.
When I started learning fiddling I learned from Burke's videos. Overall they're excellent and helped me lots.
But when he introduces rolls he advises people to practice them in isolation, going up and down a scale doing a roll on each finger. I dove right into that, determined to get these rolls down pat before trying to learn to play a reel. After all, you can't play a reel if you can't do the ornaments, right?
But I couldn't do it. I could hear it in my head but I couldn't get my fingers to do it. I spent many, many hours doing this and nearly gave up fiddling altogether because it seemed too hard.
Eventually I just said "feck it" and started playing without the rolls. Instead of attempting them I would just flick a kind of a double cut to try to get some sort of ornament in there when needed.
As I got some tunes down comfortably I started really enjoying them, and I got to where I could play expressively and just let my hands go on autopilot while I focused on the sound. I started really listening to myself.
Guess what started happening? Rolls. Spontaneously.
I couldn't do one in isolation with a gun to my head, but somehow just knowing the sound needed allowed a lift to start coming in with my cut thing.
I never "tried" to do this, I just relaxed and stopped thinking about it and my cuts just started morphing into rolls. Of course it took a while for them to sound good and up to speed, but that just took more playing.
So there you have it, many many hours of hard work ended in failure, and then I got it without any effort at all. I learned by listening and having the right sound in my head, not by thinking about what my hand should be doing and working on it.
Obviously, not everyone learns the same way, and practicing rolls in isolation might be fine for some people. That's not my point. My point is that I have first hand experience that backs up what will and llig have been trying to say.
It's all very Zen. Or Yoda. "Do, or do not. There is no try."
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Funny, some classical teachers are even coming around to this approach, at least for some skills. Todd Ehle does a video lesson now on "instant vibrato"--it doesn't work for everyone, but it works for many, and the results are as good or better than the 10,000-hours of trying method.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Actually, I learned vibrato spontaneously too, and I guess I should have learned a lesson from that; I had forgotten about it.
I remember my orchestra teacher saying that some teachers didn't even try to teach vibrato, it just happens after a while. That was 20 years ago, so the idea has been around for a while.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I came from a classical background too. I liked playing in big orchestras and I really like the music. I didn't like follow all the directions, though - all the bows going the same direction, all the little symbols on the page that had to be interpretted and played. All part of classical music, but it got to be too much for me. When I started to play traditional music, it felt very comfortable from the beginning. I suppose I had to unlearn a lot of stuff too but I didn't feel like I was losing anything. The hardest thing to learn was how to listening and I'm still working on that.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I come from a punk rock background. I've never been accused of being a good musician until I started playing this. Even with a crippled left hand, that was not much better than a club, this stuff seemed kinda easy to me. No one told me it was supposed to be hard so I didn't(and don't) see it like that. I see it as folk music. Of course there are many people playing it who are are extraordainarily talented individuals but I don't think that that level of musicianship is required and for my own taste(or lack of) that's not very important to me.
Much of the "practicing" that I did early on was more like physical therepy as a result of my stroke. once movement became easier, quicker and more precise it became quite easy to play tin whistle even though I'd only ever played electric guitar prior to the stroke.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by shanty
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Some people round here regard "folk music" as a dirty pair of words. As if its something their music has to be 'better than'. Not something that they want own up to putting hundreds of hours into. If you look on it as say, 'good music that can be played by sensitive people with gnarled hands and fingers as fat as sausages ' then the simplicity and fun argument is easier to understand. Old time fiddling without the competition influence maybe (I'm trusting Will's view on that).
But I wonder if a west african drummer wouldn't see their own music as 'simple' (in the llig/will sense) and irish music difficult.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
When i first replied to this thread I though to myself, ok a chance to show everyone that we can have a mature and intelligent discussion without insults and innuendo, sigh I was wrong. Do any of you notice how quiet this place gets when you start flaming? hmm probably not.
However the invective has faded for the moment so i will return to the discussion in question; in my first post i said this
>>Its beauty is not in its complexity, but in its clarity, precision, flow, melody etc . Yes in a sense, when compared to some types of music it is melodically,and Harmonically simple , but compared to others it is not at all.>>
I then went on to question the motivation behind comparing this music with more formal styles, it seems pointless and puerile IMO.
I find the whole argument faintly ridiculous, simplicity is a completely subjective term , Those here who go on about how easy, and simple it is are really only talking about playing on a specific instrument, the fiddle, in comparison with classical. technique. and of course there are relatively simple classical pieces that require no more technique that relatively simple trad. pieces .
I again ask, what on earth is to be gained by comparing this music with more formal styles? What is the motivation behind this thread?
I dont compare this music with other types because this music is all I have ever known bar a few forays into this and that. compared to punk rock, which is where I come from, its very complicated and technical, compared to playing the bass , the fiddle is a much harder beast to master. so what? its all relative, and means nothing.
Every individual will approach the music from their own perspective and find it hard or easy, Why an individual who finds it easy can go on about it and implicitly denigrate those who find it hard i dont know, possibly to bolster their own ego.?
We are all entitled to our opinions, here we can discuss them, putting down me or my views does not there for raise your position , it actually diminishes it . Let us return to civil discourse. This does not preclude honesty and forthrightness, not at all, it requires it. It precludes insults innuendo, rudeness putting others down, petty games of power and domination . Now on that note I wish you all a very fine day altogether. Anyone who wishes to meet me ca
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
continuation and correction ;
....for a few tunes , give me a shout.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I answered that one already: The point of comparing this music to other musics of the world - not just classical - is to demonstrate it's relative technical simplicity.
You say it's all relative. I'm agreeing. It is relatively simple. Relative to most of the other musics of the world.
Anyway, what made you briefly change your name back to Jig this morning?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Its relatively simple, but not to 'most' types of music, that is an inaccurate generalisation. and even were it so, what is to be gained by this comparison?
Bob, I think my point about learning new techniques is aptly illustrated by marklar above. 20 yrs ago he was playing in an orchestra, yet when it came to playing trad he had to learn the technique required to roll. Somehow he feels that the lessons from Kevin Burke and the years of effort he put into trying rolls as KB suggests were wasted and that they spontaneously happened. I would see it in a different way; that those efforts resulted in an internalisation of technique which then came out, when he was not focusing on them.
Which of course, in my experience ,is how most advanced skills are learnt,.
The various 'techniques' required to draw good tone and relaxed playing are rehearsed until they become internalised and then 'just happen' in a typical no minded 'play'.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Are you guys talking about 'this fiddle music' or 'this music' ?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Very good point david, because its pretty obvious they are talking about fiddle music, As any piper will tell you , technique is an absolute prerequisite to play the instrument. Let alone play at a high level!
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Ionannas
Are you confusing the simplicity of structure of the music with the complexity of the instrument?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Not at all. Are you confusing the written music with the actual music, which can only be played on an instrument, It does not exist outside actual live performance[and recordings]
Are you comparing the dots on the paper? because llig will be the first person to tell you the music cant be found there!.
No, clearly music is made by people, on instruments[ which includes the voice].The Music can not be separated from the instrument and the person playing, they are all different aspects of the same thing.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
There are a number of different issues getting lumped together here. Structure of musics, The instruments and techniques used to play the music.
What exactly are you saying is easy llig? will? What exactly are you talking about when you say the music is simple? simple to play? or simple structure in relation to some other forms of music? simple/easy to play for you on the fiddle? simple / easy for you to play on the pipes?
Do you mean to use simple to mean easy? What?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
A whistle player and a piper both play the same tune .Are you suggestng that there is the same degree of difficulty in playing the same tune ?
The basic tune remains the same.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Yes, Ionnanas, and any flute player will tell you that a good embouchure is a prerequisite to good tone on a flute. But the main point of all advice on how to get there that I have seen has been 'listen to players you want to sound like, listen to yourself, keep practicing' It doesn't 'just happen' after hours of grinding practice. It starts to 'just happen' from day one. And with the right tunes, its fun.
The earlier Japanese calligraphy analogy showed promise though.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
By some of the metrics cited here - Sure, it's simple. So is the higher mathematics simple, and for all I know brain surgeons will tell you that their craft is too. Takes a while to learn tho'.
pbassnote says it - "But taken as a whole, Irish music presents enough complexity as to require years of work in order to achieve mastery of its art. It speaks its own unique language with its own deep cultural roots."
Anyway - pbass - I know zero about African music, except that I have heard some that I like very much & was aware in a general sense that some of the rhythms are very complex indeed. I'm not entirely ignorant of jazz & blues. Is either relevant, or are they too far removed ? I'm heading to West Africa shortly. I am hoping to hear some of the genuine article live. Is there anything you could recommend I could listen to before I go ? Anything I could read up on so's I'm not listening with entirely unprepared ears ?
For another thread mebbe, but as an aside I once asked someone who spent many years in S Africa re raising of political consciousness / dissemination of info during the apartheid era - censorship was of course v rigid. Song - was the unequivocal answer. Another aural tradition, clearly !
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
"What is to be gained by this comparison?"
I've answered that one twice now. But I'm happy to do it again: The point of comparing this music to other musics of the world - not just classical - is to demonstrate it's relative technical simplicity.
(by other musics I can list Classical - including modern avante guard, romantic classical, baroque etc - Jazz (all forms), Popular musicals, Opera, Klezmer, Eastern European tarditional, Indian Traditional, Chinese traditional, Most African traditional, Middle Eastern traditional etc)
What's the point of wanting to demonstrate Irish Music's relative simplicity? Two reasons. One, to demonstrate that great music, high art, does not need to be technically complex. Two, to discourage people from thinking it is difficult ... on any instrument.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Of course that depends on the person playing! the tune is not played the same by either, musically or physically, and the difference of skill required to produce good tone and playing are considerable. its much much harder to maintain a set of pipes, so the very ground upon which you play; the instruments set up ,[ as a piper], is not easy or simple.
david, I do play you know, you are mistaken, ok for the flute, the whistle ... day 1 its easy. its fun. try the pipes, then come and tell me.
there is no such thing as 'grinding' practice, its simply practice. you practice, i practice. WHAT we practice will be different because we play different instruments at different levels , we have different goals and we are different people.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
There you go again llig, you have absolutely no experience as a piper do you? none, zilch, Ive been playing many years, so You are someone who cant, telling me, who can, how easy it is.
Technique is the how, art is the what. we all share similar techniques for walking, running, . they are about balance, momentum etc, the physical act of walking, is esay now, for me, If you have a broken leg it is not. If you have spent time in a wheelchair you would understand that because walking is easy, and taken for granted by many, it does not mean it is for all.
Of course art does not need to be technically complex, but that simply doesnt therefore mean that all high art is not technically complex.And what is technically complex is directly related to the capacity of the person making the art . Complexity is relative.
How complex is the atom llig? how simple is it?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
llig, could you just list a few things that irish music doesn't have that more technically complex music does have ? Some I can work out:
Its not polyphonic (if that's the right word), which for me is a major plus point. It doesn't rely on cross rhythms in the 'counting' sense. It very rarely uses more than 8 notes over each doubling in pitch, often less. What else ?
There are things in other musics that need evidence to show they are less simple, rather then just less familiar. The Balkan rhythms that Ionnanas goes on about for example. And things like the eastern scales - are they objectively hard or is it just what we are used to ?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Marklar, the thing is, you think bobby Gardiner said something stupid, I think it was infact you. I really respect Bobby as one of the premier players in the world, the temerity and arrogance to condemn what he says as stupid, from a rank beginner, relatively, amazes me. of course you are entitled to your view point, but personally I respect the views of someone who has been there and done it, so to speak I may not agree with it, or I may , but That is besides the point, I respect the music words opinions and views of the old masters.
IMO if you want good advice regarding the making and learning of traditional Irish music, you want to listen to the words of a respected master, not a few shadowy figures on the internet who may or may not be able to play to anything but a rudimentary level. That is why I quote and continue to quote people like Bobby Gardiner, Jackie Daly, Kevin Burke. Because these people have shown us that they really do know what they are talking about.
Its not a call to higher authority at all, simply common sense.
i agree fully with Oisin as well, IMO technical display is of no intrinsic value. The techniques we have to use to play trad are there purely to facilitate personal expression through the medium of the music we love. What i disagree with is will interpretation of what oisin said.
>>:there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. <<
No where does he compare classical music with Irish music, its not there lads, you are imagining it. read his words, think about what he is saying.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I play with Eastern European rhythms and in Eastern European/ Arabic scales. they are no more or less complex than trad. Just different. I play some bach, it is no more complex than trad, just different. In my experience.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Where did I say all high art is not technically complex?
David, yes to the list you started. It's not polyphonic (except for the occasional drone or double stop). The rhythms are very regular and in multiples of only 2 and 3. No polyrhythms and no compound time signatures. It rarely uses more than 7 notes in an octave and rarely uses more than two octaves. It rarely modulates and even when it does, it moves to a key/mode containing most of the same notes. In the case of the simple system flute and fiddle, it almost never moves beyond the notes that are the easiest to get. The length of the tunes are very very short and even within themselves are often very repetitive. The length of a typical piece of music, three tunes, is very short.
(I grew up with a piper, we learned fiddle and pipes together. I know the pipes (Irish pipes) and pipe music inside out. They are nowhere near as difficult as they are often made out to be.)
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
"Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries."
Is that not comparing Irish music with classical?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Thanks llig. Some specifics help.
'simple but subtle' ?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I like that 'simple but subtle' unlike some of the posters on this site
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Might shock a few fellers here with agreeing.... I don't think the music is simple technically or in any other sense of the word... and this coming from an extensive background in playing other genres, including classical. Sometimes what appears or sounds simple is the hardest to master.
What drew me to the music wasn't it's "simplicity". In fact, I was still starting out on violin, at age 9, when I first heard the Chieftains and some old cassette tape of a session my friend gave me (dont' know where that went). I remember the music just hooking me. I was obsessed with it, but kept on with my classical, because, well, I was a little kid, and that's what I was supposed to do. All these years later, when I listen to it, it still snags me. I can't explain it. Sorry for the cheesey metaphor that could be in a Hallmark shop, but it sings to my soul. And when I play it, whether by ear or from dots, it makes me feel at peace. That, to me, is not simple at all.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I think a large part of will and llig's point is that if you treat this music like it is difficult, you will find it difficult to play.
If you think of it as simple, then you can focus your energy on the subtleties of making it sound and feel right, instead of getting engrossed in drills and exercises to hone the "difficult" technical skills. This music isn't about technical prowess, it's about feel and expression.
If the mountain you have to climb, in your mind, is a huge mountain, you will spend your time worrying about whether you can climb the mountain. If the mountain in your mind is a mere hill, then you'll climb up it easily, and spend your time exploring what you find (which is generally that there is another hill behind the crest of the last one)
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Reverend
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Fiddlechick, as Jig keeps pointing out, simple is relative. So it's up to you to decide whether you think the music is simple or not. However, you cannot disagree that diddley music is a relatively simple muisc. For the reasons I listed above.
Rev, of course part of my point is that if you treat this music like it is difficult, you will find it difficult to play. And that if you find it difficult to play, you will make it sound difficult, which is not what you want to be doing. But more important than that, it actually is simple ... relatively.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
so you say that if a rank beginner picks up the pipes they will find trad easy to play because you say it is! LOL or a fiddle or any instrument . They may find it easy to play badly, which Ive said all along, and i agree, it is easy to play badly. To play it well, well that is not so easy. You think you play well ?
So you've played with a piper have you llig? So you know how easy or hard it is! Thats a joke, you haven't a clue. You might think you have but you haven't. Jeez Ive played with all sorts of musicians, doesnt mean I have the faintest conception of what is actually entailed .
Rev I understand llig and wills point, it is hardly complex[ to me] . In some regards I agree, the way you approach something, the positive or negative mindset are very important. But they go far beyond that.
Yes superficial aspects of various types of music how many notes in the bar etc etc may be more or less simple or complex, but to play any music well requires skill and dedication, persistence and effort. To suggest otherwise is misleading.
IMO it is a completely meaningless to compare the superficial aspects of music making.
However compared to punk rock for example trad is very complex. Does that somehow mean ~Im correct that trad is not simple but relatively complex ? . No of course not. It is both, and neither. It just is, and pointless posturing regarding how easy it all is or how difficult it all is will not help anyone.
I disagree with llig and will, thats ok yes? I dont treat music as difficult, Ive been playing every day for 35 yrs,. I accept that If i find something hard, then it is. Because Its all relative to the individual musicians skill. Deluding myself that something is easy? When for me or others it is not? is fantasy. I dont see the point in creating fantasies to delude myself with. I prefer honest open minded and realistic assessment of the various issues involved. Comparatively speaking western boxing is simple; all you do is hit each other with your fists. Easy ?! ho ho ho.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
If you've been playing every day for 35 years and you think that trad music is difficult or complex, well, that right there shows that there's something seriously lacking in your approach and understanding of the music.
Stop pretending to be something that you're not. You're more transparent than you think.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
The may mean easy in the "How do you eat an elephant ? " sense rather than something more Yoda-like.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
What on earth are you on about Marklar, ? When Have i ever said trad is difficult? I simply argue for the thousands who find it hard. Im not pretending anything , you just appear to be fooling yourself. You telling me trad is easy are you? so ahh that means you play it well ? or its just easy to play badly.?
As it happens you will find playing trad on the Pipes hard, actually I doubt you can, so then you are some one who cant do something, telling me, who can , how easy it is?
If you are talking from your perspective as a classical violinist approach trad on the instrument you have played 20 yrs and telling us how easy it is, well then for you it probably is,but to what level?
My point all along, that to play trad at a high level, like JD etc is not easy, it requires a lifetime of dedication and persistence. OK if you want to play like a 2 yr novice scratching tune away , then maybe they find it easy? I dont know. That is not what I do or am interested in.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
It isn't a choice between playing like a master or playing like a novice. This tradition is mostly made up of people with mediocre ability who enjoy playing the music and don't find it particularly difficult. I think that is what you fail to understand.
These great players that you're so obsessed with are an important part of the tradition, but they are the exceptions. For the most part this music isn't about playing at that level or even attempting to. It's about enjoying some tunes in your kitchen with friends and family or down at the local session. That's what it's about, and it isn't hard.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
And like the elephant, you can take it a bite at a time.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Yes!
"The length of the tunes are very very short and even within themselves are often very repetitive."
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I agree Marklar ;
>>It's about enjoying some tunes in your kitchen with friends and family or down at the local session. That's what it's about, >>
Im not obsessed with these great players marklar, its just that sometimes I find them down at the local session, so If I want to play trad with my mates, I need to be able to at least not drag them down! happy now?
So we have different experiences of what sessions are, doesnt mean our experience is any less or more, just different. dont judge me by your standards and experience, because you dont know me or my experience and I will offer you the same courtesy.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
It is stunning how jig pretends that he alone is taking the high road here and then he fills his posts with insults, intentional misrepresentations of what other people have said, and outright statements that anyone who disagrees with him is stupid.
Right down to continuing this charade that he isn't jig, despite the obvious. And as though we haven't heard those clips of him attempting to play simple tunes and not being able to even keep time let alone play well. Yet here he is insisting that working hard at his craft is what made him such a high level player and we're all stupid for suggesting that there's a more effective way to approach learning this music.
It would be silly if it weren't so appalling.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
My observations of this "simplicity" thing:
When I relax, and tell myself: "this is easy," it is. Sounds better.
When I tell myself: "bowstrokes, longer, shorter, faster, etc" it is harder. and sounds like crap.
When crossing over from classical to traditional styles, I observed little kids, old farts, all playing double stops with ease. They were difficult for me, probably hearkening back to that Kreutzer (sp?) etude... While those that have never played an etude in their life, just tunes, breeze through it. No big deal.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by wyogal
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
So jig has finally updated his "Ion" profile with the exact copy he used under "jig."
What a sham.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Wyogal--that's it, precisely.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Im really not interested in your slander will. you simply started this thread to cause trouble didnt you? At least some of us here have been able to talk about the music before you pop back in here with your ugly aggressive attitude. You are bringing the tone of this site down with your continued petty vendetta. Good night.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Jig, I started this thread because I found an interesting quote from a player whom I admire.
In your first post on this thread, you "instructed" me on how confused my thinking was, and you've since called anyone here who disagrees with you "stupid."
You've also lied your way back onto the board.
Answer one simple question. How is this behavior of yours not aggressive and lowering the tone?
Cop on.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
LOL, what jig actually did was revert to his old "jig" membership, but change the name from "jig" to "Ionannas."
What would be so wrong about admitting who you are? Is it because you snuck onto the board under another alias during a time when Jeremy had banned you, and you don't want to be caught? Or is it because the old "jig" persona had been shot full of too many holes and had no credibility any more? What?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Will, thanks for your input. I also appreciate that you are totally upfront and honest about who you are.
We'd love to have you at a session down here. We are learners (except for our "leaders"), all classically trained, gone to the "dark side."
Watching these threads develop is interesting (O.K., I have no life), especially the tantrums that emerge. One can almost hear the feet stamping, and the doors slamming.
ha!
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by wyogal
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Wyogal, c'mon up to Helena any time and we'll have a seat for you at the local session.
While the tone of my posts could easily be read as heated, I'm actually not het up at all. I just believe in preserving the integrity of this board.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I don't read your posts as heated at all!!!
; p
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by wyogal
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Hello! Is this the Argument Room?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Bren
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
wyogal is being diplomatic
It seems to me that there is a degree of unnecessary invective creeping in.
Pity.
I think it actually gets in the way of convincing people of the merits of particular standpoints, if that is the objective of the discussion.
For my own part, I have come to an appreciation of what I think llig means when he refers to "Simplicity". My intitial reaction was to disagree quite strongly.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
My last post re Wyogal's diplomacy crossed with hers to Will - it was not in specific response thereto.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Hats off to all the optimists ~
"I just believe in preserving the integrity of this board."
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Here's another vote for integrity and a scaling down of invective on all sides.
And hitting below the belt will result in an immediate disqualification!
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by leoj
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
.......AND in the LEFT corner - Winner of his First All Ireland Championship at the age of 2, and UNDEFEATED in 547 Successive Fleadhanna Cheoil Since - In the Treble Clef Shorts.....
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
A simple ITM formula:
interest + listening + application = playing ITM music
(interest + listening + application) x increasing time frame = understanding and playing ITM music well.
Simple, yes?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by drone
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Sigh. Does it really matter if Ionannas is jig ? Its what he says now that matters, not settling old scores (unless you have scores to settle I suppose). I have never been in a good bar room debate without some wriggling and twisting of views going on.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
David, from the outset, jig's approach on this board has been to label others as "stupid" or as "poor" players if they disagree with him. When his own sound clips demonstrated that his playing didn't match up to his on-screen boasting, he became even more insulting.
Rather than engage in dialogue, he argues, endlessly, often contradicting himself in the process (see his first post on this thread for a clear example). He got kicked off once for this behavior, then snuck back on under a second membership and is heading down the same path as before.
I think this matters, unless you prefer a board where this sort of behavior is acceptable.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Sean, I'm not after convincing people of my view--I'd much rather have a fun conversation about the pros and cons of different ways to think about this music. But that's nigh impossible when one person repeatedly insults, misrepresents others' comments, and misleads about their own abilities.
It's one thing to disagree based on reasons. It's another to endlessly face garbage like: "As it happens you will find playing trad on the Pipes hard, actually I doubt you can, so then you are some one who cant do something, telling me, who can , how easy it is?" That's not discussion, and it drags the whole board down.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
will If i told you juggling 10 balls was hard, but I cant juggle, would you agree with me.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
What if I told you juggling 20 balls was easy, simple, but I cant juggle?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
You can juggle 10 balls, you tell me its easy, does that mean it will be easy for me?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
when I cant juggle....
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I'd say you have too many balls.
Start off with about 3. There is a really fun way for 2 people to pass 3 juggling rings back & forth. I have yet to meet anyone who could not do it in just a short time. It can be used as an intro to juggling.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
I suppose the analogy would be learning 10 tunes in 10 minutes is (nearly) impossible.
However, learning 10 tunes in ten months is relatively easy.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Will, I don't think Ionnanas is setting out to be deliberatley unpleasant or start fights. He has't been popping up on every single thread giving advice the way jig did. This thread was obviously a subject that he has strong views on. And in a situation where there was a bartender around to change the subject or say 'keep your voices down guys' when tempers get raised it wouldn't be problem.
Thats just the way it look from this corner of the bar.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Im not interested in the pointless meta thread running through this thread about music. Im interested in answers to simple questions pertaining to simplicity and complexity of skill performance Ie juggling, fiddling, boxing, walking, guitar playing, banjo playing, Piping, whistling, drumming, etc etc that is what we are here to discuss is it not? Why not keep off subject personal stuff to a minimum eh?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22056
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I have a session mate who is both a good player & a poor player.
I love listening to her when she simply * lets the tunes happen*.
There are times, though, when she tries (or concentrates) too hard. Then there is more tension & here playing is off.
My guess is it is about her finding peace of mind rather than improving technique.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
There's an interesting one further up a bit (I've been out for a meal and the cinema):
Jig is talking about playing in sessions with "famous" people and saying that he doesn't want to "drag them down". Then he says something eminently reasonable: "So we have different experiences of what sessions are, doesnt mean our experience is any less or more." (the "our" is funny though ... kind of like a royal "we")
But then the killer quote comes: "dont judge me by your standards."
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
The full quote is''So we have different experiences of what sessions are, doesnt mean our experience is any less or more, just different. dont judge me by your standards and experience, because you dont know me or my experience and I will offer you the same courtesy.>>
You really seem impervious to argument, simply engaging in peurile name calling, inuendo , and Insinuation.
I was not talking about famous people, llig just some of the guys at the session.so If I want to pay in the local sessions I have to be good. Its that simple. Since the lads welcome me back I have to assume that I am doing OK. I let the folk I play with judge me , as they do, not some shadowy figure on the internet thanks.
Its a typical pattern here, Once your argument is shown to be weak and full of holes the insults and innuendo start, developing into a kind of feeding frenzy, where all chance of reasonable debate is sucked into your vortex of unpleasantness. Yuck. That is why I change identity here, to avoid this petty bullsh*t from people who should know better. Anyone can read this thread and see exactly where the insults and aggression are coming from.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
The full quote includes: "Im not obsessed with these great players marklar, its just that sometimes I find them down at the local session"
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Anyway ...
"so you say that if a rank beginner picks up the pipes they will find trad easy to play because you say it is! "
Nope, never said that.
"So you've played with a piper have you llig?"
Nope, never said that. I said I grew up with one as we learned together. My best friend. Very very big difference.
"No where does he [Oisin Mac Diarmada] compare classical music with Irish music, its not there lads, you are imagining it. read his words."
The opening post from Oisin Mac Diarmada: "Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries".
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Here's some other quotes ...
"so you say that if a rank beginner picks up the pipes they will find trad easy to play because you say it is! "
Nope, I never said that.
"So you've played with a piper have you llig?"
Nope, never said that either. I said I grew up with one as we learned together. My best friend. Very very big difference.
"No where does he [Oisin Mac Diarmada] compare classical music with Irish music, its not there lads, you are imagining it. read his words."
The opening post from Oisin Mac Diarmada: "Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries".
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Sorry, twice posted again. computer gremlins
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Here's how this thing goes:
Someone makes a fairly sensible but firm statement about some aspect of Irish music.
Jig jumps in to say that that statement is completely wrong, and his expertise leads him to say that something completely different is true, and that thing is usually clearly wrong to anyone who knows the subject, or at least questionable.
Someone calls BS on Jig, because he is the one who's clearly wrong.
Then Jig pounces. He responds with a very indignant and sometimes angry post saying that he is clearly right, and listing about 10 different nonsensical arguments for why he is right.
Now blood is in the water, and people start picking apart his bogus claims. And Jig just sits there and shovels coal into the fire, becoming more angry and insulting with every post, except for the odd posts where he seems to try to be friendly or amusing.
And this can go on for days and hundreds of posts, turning perfectly innocent threads into verbal bloodsport, and drowning out any relevant discussion that might be going on. And I'm tired of it.
I say we stop feeding the troll. Obviously nothing that has been done so far has done anything to solve this problem. He will not go away and Jeremy seems unable to keep him away.
When he again offers some really wrong-headed advice or statement, just call the BS and walk away. Don't respond to his inevitable baiting, that just gets the ball rolling. Attacking him or continuing to pick him apart just fuels the fire.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
He is talking about using ITM to display virtuoso technique . He is not comparing the structure of the music is he? He is not comparing the technique used in trad to the techniques in other types of music. He is not making any comparison, read it again. His is saying simply;
<<Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries.>>
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
why do you lot always fight so much?
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by richrua
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
"He is not comparing the technique used in trad to the techniques in other types of music"
For christ sake Jig. He's making a direct comparison between Irish music and flashy virtuoso violinists. For god's sake man,
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I'm sorry richrua, I'm exasperated
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
so many balls, so few hands...
sheesh, I go walk the dog and come back to this...
hahahahaha. yep no life.
same old same old.
feeding THIS troll, the new "Asian" chicken at Wendy's isn't too bad!!!
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by wyogal
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
trip trap trip trap
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I suspect when Jeremy gets back from holiday and sees what a contribution jig has made after hacking duplicate memberships, he'll award him a medal....
Until then, it really is pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with him. So I suggest starving the troll and am off doing something constructive.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Apart from where you twist the truth marklar, as you are the third person on this specific thread to come on and be directly insulting. Any -one interested Everything said tonight is clearly written out above.
Apart from that its quite good advice really, If you think what I say is BS, you say it. Thats good because that is exactly what I do. If you think the Advice of Bobby Gardiner is ' stupid' as you said ???!!!! , your entitled to your opinion and the same goes for anyone here. Feel free to speak your mind, just refrain from uncivil behaviour. '' Being Insulting, aggressive ,abusive, rude ,unpleasant etc Thats it isn't it Jeremy?
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I never said I wasn't one of the ones taking the bait. I sad "we" should stop feeding the troll, myself included.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
me too wyogal!
it's hot in Chico. So I took the dogs for a walk & swim.
just finished 4 chickens tacos.
guess I'll play some tunes.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
er, said
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Marklar
Its getting surreal
yeah Im off too
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
What did you see at the cinema, llig?
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
With regard to your post above,Ioanannas:
I've read the sentence: 'Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries.' a few times now and I do think it is indeed a comparison of 'the technique used in trad to the techniques in other types of music.'
And I would guess it's a specific reference to the great classical solo players of those times.
I do think he is comparing the techniques used in classical violin music to Irish trad.
After all,the very next sentence reads: 'They wouldn't have found material in Irish music to demonstrate their technical skills'.
Anyway,I liked that quote from Oisin Mac Diarmada.
I also liked the Reverend's post as regards hills and mountains.
In connection with regarding something as easy or difficult I can offer the following...
When sight reading something 'difficult' it is entirely possible to get a passage near(and I stress the 'near') perfect.The more it's rehearsed the more time you get to think how difficult it is with the corresponding reduction in accuracy.
That's been my experience.
So state of mind is everything,as they say.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Btw,I hope it's obvious from the above that I'm talking about sight reading orchestral parts.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
What's the point of posting here on this discussion forum? I ask myself this question often, especially when I get exasperated.
But I love the music.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
For me, it's something to do while taking breaks from playing. You can usually tell how much I'm playing by how much I post.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Marklar
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
"Irish music will never be the flashy type of fiddling in the sense of some of the virtuoso violinists of the 20th and 19th centuries. They wouldn't have found material in Irish music to demonstrate their technical skills. But there can be more feeling in music when things are kept simple and you're not focusing on demonstrating technical displays. That's always been a hallmark of Irish fiddling."
You still reckon Dave? Surely the first sentence has to be taken in relation to the full quote? and that to the interview at the time.
To my mind he is clearly talking about keeping trad simple with out using it to display virtuoso technique. That is the crux of his quote. IMO He is talking about feeling in music being the essence and technique being just a route for expression. He is saying that the real traditional Music contains feeling. Its not something superficial, its not about whether you can play a roll like Kevin Burke, or have a ' traditional fiddle style' Its not about virtuoso display. Its about sharing tunes and enjoyment, sharing the music and our love for it. Thats what he is talking about IMO.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I thought you left...
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by wyogal
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Yes,I know what he is saying and I thought it was pretty clear.
It's just that you said:'He is not comparing the technique used in trad to the techniques in other types of music. He is not making any comparison'. in your earlier post.
I just read the opposite meaning to your statement-that was why I posted.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Ya know, don't be bustin' on the complexity of punk rock. I know a classical pianist who can't play fckin' 'Louie Louie' if his life depended on it! Sounds like a church hym when he tries to play it.
IONANNAS --It's easy to play any music badly and it's hard to play any form of music at a virtuosso level. If you're saying that Irish dance tunes MUST be played at virtuosso level or they don't qualify as Irish trad than I disagree. It's folk music. It's played by FOLK. Some FOLK play better than others but all are playing Irish trad.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by shanty
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Hi Jig long time no see.
You should post those clips of you playing in your biog, so people can take things with a grain of salt.
I'm not going to speak for llig or will as others have done.
Up until very recently I was only able to switch off. To relax. I'm noticing a lot of improvements in my own playing . I'm having a lot of fun more too. I can hear it in my own music.
I was all stiff when I played, so I'd think about it, and it'd get worse. It took me ages to relax. I think I'm getting there. But I like that about diddley - there's no rush for me. I'll get there. I'm relaxed and I'm enjoying it. Its not hard work. Its not blood sweat and tears, and I don't play every day. I can't.
I play when I can, to relax, to zone out. I play a session with deadly muso's - much better than me, but they enjoy my enjoyment and me finding myself and my own sound. That's what its all about - for me.
There's a lot to be said about listening, but also watching.
I don't think the mindset here is hard work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBONRwNY77c
It kind of looks effortless to PC.
Sounds deadly too.
Maybe as you say he spent years working on the technique, but I honestly don't think he did. Years of playing in his house, playing tunes with his friends and enjoying it? Yeah, I think so. If it was all about technique and hard work, why in the name of Jaysus would you bother?
***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0CTHmQ2Jus&feature=PlayList&p=747C72607391D3C1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15
This is one of my favorite clips on the internet.
Speaks volumes.
***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Wts70RRLs
Years of blood sweat and tears?
***
It's difficult to learn any new instrument at first. I think that once you relax and enjoy it, discipline and technique (if there is any) just happen.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Hugo, your bio says you're learning flute--that's a great one for relaxing into, the breathing nearly "forces" you to relax or you won't get any air, eh? And the breathing itself clears your head.
You wrote: "It's difficult to learn any new instrument at first. I think that once you relax and enjoy it, discipline and technique (if there is any) just happen."
I tend to find that the relaxing and enjoying part, started right at the beginning, make it easy to learn a new instrument. And any potential for frustration just evaporates. It's a bit like managing pain (me, mending from a broken leg)--take the pain killers *before* you feel the ache, and then the pain never builds up.
Playing music doesn't have to hurt, physically or emotionally, ever.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
"Playing music doesn't have to hurt, physically or emotionally, ever."
ye...it defeats the purpose.
I smoke too much to get a decent tone from the flute tho...It'll come...
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
No worries, tone is less about air than air stream. Funny, but one of the best things you can do for tone on flute is yawn (talk about relaxing). Remember what it feels like when you whole mouth and throat open up in a yawn, and then keep that feel behind a tiny little embouchure, and you'll get the reedy honk you're after.
But you no doubt already know this. Flute's a gas.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I have no interest in this row (it is a bit pedantic, arguing over the meaning of "difficulty" and "simplicity" with the odd insults thrown in) but I thought I'd point out that I do understand the pressure one might feel to be of a high musical standard in order to fit in or get on at certain sessions. There are places where unless you are of a standard to have the same musical conversation as everyone else, you'll be perennially treated as an outsider.
Simplcity and difficulty are all relative but yeah, it is simpler than classical. Have you ever looked at a piano concerto? Eeek. Also, when you start *anything* new, be it an instrument, rock climbing, horse riding, whatever, it's HARD.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Balls. I deleted half my post.
I added at the end that things will get easier, especially when you're passionate about it, and also that it is far easier to attain basic competence playing folk music than other genres. But it gets complicated by loads of variables, like you're own time, motivation, previous musical experience, hard wiring etc. I think you can make cautious generalizations about the ease of playing Irish music relative to classical but still accept that some people will find it easier or harder than others.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I dont think the Cumberland ,Byker is one of those places
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Like anything that's basically simple, some people do it fantastically well.
I guess those are the "stars"we are looking at while lying in the gutter a la Oscar Wilde.
Some fine times to be had in the gutter though ... you can enjoy a traditional tune played by someone of limited ability if it has spirit and oomph or the circumstances are conducive
I don't think you can say the same of a piano concerto
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Bren
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I like the way threads like this often generate a nugget of interesting info that might otherwise not be mentioned. Even though I don't understand half of the points he is trying to make, perhaps Ionannas/Jig, by being an antagonist, goads people into clearly expressing some interesting ideas.
I especially liked Marklar's post about only getting rolls after he stopped trying so hard. I am sure, however, that his practice of the rolls, in the long run, was part of the reason they started appearing in his music. I have had his experience many times with instruments, I drill drill drill, put it aside, and later go back and find, "Oh, there it is!"
I remember someone saying that he worked very hard so that his music would sound effortless. Like many discussions on this board, this issue comes down to two different extremes, work versus play, which are both important to being a musician. You need to have structure and basic techniques, but you also have to have fun and enjoy what you are doing. The trick is finding the right balance as you constantly improve.
So my answer to the question is that both sides are right--to some degree, that is. Taking the middle ground is not as much fun as fighting, but it is usually where the best answer lies.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
From my early experience playing music (piano lessons) it was demonstrated to me how hard work may often be counterproductive.
My piano teacher was keen on recognizing when I was labouring too much on a piece. She'd recommend I give it time to rest & pick it up again later. I always seemed to be better at picking up pieces this way rather than the ones' which I would practice endlessly. Not to say I don't do lots & lots of woodshedding.
Hopefully it all invigorates me, not simply zap my energy.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
A friend once described ITM to me as Simple Music played by simple minded people. Of course I didn't agree. An awful lot of it is complicated and hard to learn, but on reflection he was probably expressing the views of the great unwashed, and like it or not, there are more of them than there are of us....Just look at the music of U2 for instance. One of the biggest bands in the world. Their shows are instant 'sell outs' and thousands queue for hours just to watch them on giant TV screens. Unfortunately their music is so complicated and hard to learn that try as I may, I just can't play one of their tunes on the accordion, in fact I can't even whistle the 'air' of any of their tunes...... God...why did you make me such a simple minded fool?
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Ahhh, this is just another Drop of the Hard Stuff thread...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6k1lml4AvE
I won't take that talk from nobody...
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by drone
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
As an aside, A temporary diversion.
I do recall a big argument developing over a bottle of the White Whisky, as I recall yer man cycled away with the bottle, fell of his bike and smashed it. Moral? , he should have stayed and shared it with all the folk round the fire! Just because some one else had paid for it! tsk Would only have been 4 punt or so.! and it just soaked away into his overcoat, sigh.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
~
Fell off his bike? Sounds like he already had a bit of whiskey. ;)
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
LOL. I think everyone on this site likes to banter. It's really rather amusing to browse the threads for some good, solid philosophical and/or "lite" conversation on interesting topics and see the whole thread turn into my bow is bigger than yours and you are right or wrong, yada, yada, yada.
If you can't take it, then don't dish it out, right?
I'm wondering, since I obviously haven't been here long enough to know.... why have certain people been banned before? I'm curious to know what people can possibly say or do that I haven't seen someone post already and not be banned...... ;)
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Oh, and LIig, I actually agree with you for once! I also see it as a bit relative. Been accused quite often of being a "sophist" for that outlook. My experience is that I don't find music "simple" in the literal, denotative definition of the word. Maybe what some see as "simple" is really in place of the word "free"??
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
There have been a few (fabricated) user names which have come up to rant about the site &/or the founder. Those threads get deleted.
Some threads have not been deleted but certain comments (within the thread) were omitted. Can make for an interesting read.
Presumably discussions about discussions (meta threads) are forbidden & may or may not be edited/deleted.
We're supposed to submit only discussions relevant to ITM
. . .
The banter has been here everyday.
Jeremy, & others, come & go.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Oh, okay. Was wondering. Now, come to it, I've read a few threads where the responses didn't seem to make sense. That might be why.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
People get suspended for violating Jeremy's "be civil" rule. But Jeremy's interpretation of that rule isn't always clear or apparently consistent. Case in point, Michael was recently suspended for replying to a question with "What a stupid question." Yet the same sort of language is tolerated at other times (including on this thread, although my hunch is that Jeremy is just away from the site for a few days).
jig was banned for repeatedly losing his temper. He snuck back on under the Ion membership, which was obvious from the start, and has now moved himself back into the jig membership using the Ion name. Normally, when someone hides behind two memberships, Jeremy gives them the boot for good. But who knows.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
There was an excellent discussion, cannot find it now, which was not omitted. But . . . all of the comments of 1 member were deleted.
Interesting thing is the person who submitted the discussion was the one who had his comments removed.
The way I could tell was from the 1st post which began as a response {Re: ITM title}. That & a particular user name kept being mentioned but I couldn't connect it w/any of the previous posts.
This site contributes to alot of popcorn being eaten & many glasses of wine being spilt.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
I also helps to bear in mind that some of us have been here for years and have long back histories with other folks. For good and bad. But I've met and made the best of friends among other members here--sometimes the banter is just that, slagging among good friends.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Archival clues ~
I found the ghost writers' post;
Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Posted on August 19th 2007 by ___
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14845
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
"There once was a fella named Trad
And sometimes his spelling was bad
But with thousands of posts and some curious boasts
It sent Llig and all raving mad'
-- Jusa Nutter Eejit
LOL, that sums up the situation pretty well!
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Marklar
Limericks
As witty as our poet is in Arizona I belief it was Mr.T_Day who hit the nail on the head.
Just don't ask me to search for that thread. The subject is simplicity. Is it not?
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
so that's who L ___It is.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
simply goofy, if ya know what I mean...
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by wyogal
Re: The Simplicity of This Music
Why is simplicity considered an insult by some?
Simple is Beautiful.
A single wildflower stuck in a glass. A white pebble on the white sand.
This music could be considered simple because the heart of it can often be contained in four to eight measures. As opposed to the 128 measures (each different, and subtly building/repeating the last phrase) of a Beethoven concerto, complete with its ten different 'voices' of orchestral instruments, etc.Not to mention the three different movements of said concerto...
I love this music because it's simple, because it can call to mind a stream in the woods or sunlight through the trees, because it reminds one of simple friendly gatherings and everything that is down to earth and from the earth. Because you can hum along with it.
"Tis a gift to be simple, tis a gift to be free..."
# Posted on August 28th 2009 by greentree