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playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I played with a ceilidh band at the weekend and found I was playing differently to how I play in a session. More conscious of the dancers' needs as they learned the figures, then giving some oomph and lift when they were in the swing of it.

Anyone else noticed a difference in how you play?

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by greenman

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I know I get exhaused playing for dancers. The music just goes on and on and on......

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by Bredna

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Oh sure. I think everyone should do it at least once. You'll certainly appreciate a session more after. ;-)

Sessions truly are for the musicians, while dances are, well...for the dancers, pretty much.

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

A huge difference, aye. Did you enjoy it?

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by Dragut Reis

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I cant use syncopated rhythm for dancers coz it puts them off, how annoying!

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by pdawg32

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I think its a matter of 'discipline' verses 'gay abandon'

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by Free Reed

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Did I enjoy it? Oh yes! It was great fun!

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by greenman

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

It's cracking, no? Dance music, played for dancing to... Seems kind of, erm, obvious. Different animal altogether, but great craic I've always found.

# Posted on July 21st 2009 by Dragut Reis

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Yes, good fun, but heck, you have to really concentrate. It's good for your playing though.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by ...

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Been doing it off and on for quite a while now. Good fun, interacting with the dancers - you've got to have swivel eyes - one watching the dancers, the other on your band leader for important cues.
I also play cello when required in a barn dance band. That's different again, but still great fun and requires as much concentration - there's a caller, we play from sheet music (which is chosen while the caller is walking the dancers through the dance), and it's longer - usually 3-4 hours. The last one we did was for primary school kids and the theme was the Wild West, so straw bales were scattered all round the hall. The guitarist next to me was sneezing his head off all evening.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I think everyone should play for dancers a few times, it gives you a different perspective on the music. That's both figurative and literal: when I was playing dances, we were on a stage and were able to observe the geometry of the dance in a way you never do from the floor. Kind of fun, really, especially with good dancers.
More important, of course, is the constraint of tempo that the dance imposes, which I think gives you more control and discipline in session playing.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Haven't played a ceilidh (yet), but a few times people got up and danced at sessions I've played in. The "atmosphere" was certainly different. It seemed to me the session leader wanted to keep the folks dancing around their tables. It was very cool and lots of fun!

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by cfmgeek

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

One thing about playing for set dancers, if you find a particular roll or triple (which you'd quite happily play in a session) difficult or awkward at the dancers' speed, no-one is going to notice if you don't play it - it's far more important to stay with the dancers.
There - I've revealed the Big Secret ;-)

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I've never played at a dance (though I might have the opportunity to do so soon!), but last year I had an unusual fiddle lesson with someone who plays neither fiddle nor trad - she's a dance caller. It was like rhythm boot camp - I left with a whole new perspective on the music. Pairs of phrases that I'd previously thought of as being very similar to one another turned out to be completely different from a dancer's perspective, and vice versa. It was a tad intimidating, though, and I got the impression that if at some point I lost 1/64 of a beat so, the dancers would crash into one another or somesuch.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

If people in the pub get up and dance, then I always think we're on the right track. We often see people dancing - either freestyle or pretty impressive "proper" dancing. I've also really enjoyed the experience of playing regularly for Scottish dancing, though I am a Sassenach and a hopeless dancer myself.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by RichardB

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Yes, it's different.
The session style has developed in the absence of a need to keep playing at a particular speed and respond to the rhythm that, once you have set it up, the dancers will then feed back to you. People who play regularly for dancing have a completely different sense of rhythm than those who only play in sessions. There is sometimes the urge, if you are playing with one or more of these people, to want to try and kickstart the rhythm up a bit, as they can seem to be set in a groove that seems lower-energy than what you are used to.
Remember that how they do it is basically what the music is actually meant for, and it is we who are actually the people doing it different.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I've played in a few, I've danced in a few. I always come out far more exhausted from the playing than the dancing.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Joe Wass

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

You need to be able to make the tunes dance for ceilidh.
You also need to be able to play effortlessly as you have to be up there doing it all night - no rest for the wicked.

You need strength of mind to resist the cratur - there is much more free drink going at dances.

The repertoire makes the band - You do need either a huge repertoire or be able to read the dots.
If reading dots, you need a decent pad where the tunes follow on smoothly, and an organised pad where you can find the set you need in seconds.

The ability to talk whilst playing is a must for the leader .

Organisational skills of the highest order are required off-stage as well. The session will still function if two or three musicians don't turn up. The band can be a totally different band if one person fails to turn up. A long list of deputies is required, as well as arranging for deputies to occasionally sit in with the band to fit in.

Rule # 1 - play to fit in with the set of dancers containing the person who is paying you.
Rule # 2 - if you are playing for 3 hours, you need 4 hours material.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by geoffwright

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Not many bodhran players turned up yet!
A whole new ball game I have found, and it is also very distracting watching the little twelve year olds in their starched dresses and over the top hairdo's clacking away.
They have very loud clacky things on their shoes they usually can't count and everyone goes all gooey when they do their thing.
And muso's complain abt bodhran players, tee hee.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by mcknowall

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

break all their legs I reckon!

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by mcknowall

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

If you're playing with a pickup or a mic remember that you'll be hearing very little of your own sound - it's going out through the speakers in front of you - so resist the temptation to overplay. If you overplay for the whole of the gig you won't be playing effortlessly and you'll exhaust yourself. The PA should be taking care of the sound level you provided during the sound check.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

And if you're playing from printed sheets don't forget those clothes pegs. Dancers moving around in front of you will generate enough of a breeze to blow music off the stand.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I think we got two different beasts under discussion here.

First, you’ve got your set dancers. These folks will dance to tunes at ludicrous speeds and make nifty geometric patterns on the floor with themselves to keep you amused.

Second, you’ve got your step dancers, aka ‘the girls with the curls’. They usually (though not for all dances) dance to slower tunes as their steps are more intricate, more aerobatics to deal with. Also, as mcknowall points out, they can be so totally obsessed with their fanciful stepping that their dancing can have little to do with the music actually played. ;-)

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I think a ceili(dh) is a third beats again from those two you mention SWFL Fiddler.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

yes, I'd say a ceilidh is very different beast (and beats) from little-girly set dancing with the mummies watching

ceilidhs can be somewhat er ... uninhibited by comparison

I like playing at dances, more than at sessions really

The main restriction is the need to pack up your gear pretty promptly afterwards and drive sometimes a long way home.
No hanging about for a drink and a few more relaxed tunes
the divorcee with the daring décolletage who was making eyes at the musicians will have moved on and forgotten you by the time you're ready to go home, which is good and proper of course

it's a funny old world where the session has become the normal thing and the ceilidh the odd thing

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Bren

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

By way of illustration -
Set dancers:
http://www.neicn.com/NEICN/Images/Irish%20Festival%202008/Galleries/Irish%20Dancers/slides/The%20Fagan%20School%20of%20Irish%20Dance%2016.jpg

Ceilidh:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/common/d/d8/Breughel_proverbs.jpg

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Bren

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Whoops
try again
Ceilidh:
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bruegel/proverbs.jpg

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Bren

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Yes pitchfork, 'set dancing' is that generic non-Gaeilge term, dancing 'sets', Clare Lancers, Shoe the Donkey, etc. Ceilidh Dancing, they dance sets, etc.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

:-) on the ceili/ceilidh link, Bren, but I really don't think the ringlet girls is what SWFL meant by set dancers, I think he had them down as step dancers.

Set dancers are something different again. (And of course there are set dancers and there are set dancers).

- chris

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Well, I suppose you can split hairs over set and ceili a million ways to Sunday. Perhaps we'll need a dancer to sort this out. All I see are a buncha people getting up and doing similar moves in pairs and groups to the same tunes. ;-)

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

well heaven forbid I should exaggerate the differences to make a point
I admit I was thinking of stepdancing
I guess most Scottish Country Dancing (which strictly speaking isn't *exactly* what's done at a ceilidh either) could be called set dancing

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Bren

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Yes, girls with curls, STEP dancers.

Folks dancing in couples and groups, ceili or set.

As I understand it, European SET dancing is based on the French quadrille. All rural European (and by extension, North American Contra and Southern Square dancing) social dancing that we know of today comes from the quadrille.

The Gaelic League came up with the term ceili in the 19th century during the great revival. Originally ceili simply means a social gathering. “Hmm, Irish peasants dancing French Quadrilles to Irish tunes? We can’t have that! Let’s call it something more Irish!” ;-)

‘The general format of céilidh dancing is the “Set”. A Set consists of four couples, with each pair of couples facing another in a square or rectangular formation. Each couple exchanges position with the facing couple, and also facing couples exchange partners, while all the time keeping in step with the beat of the music.’

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceilidh#Modern_ceilidhs

OK wait, so they dance SETS at CEILIS, eh? THBBPPT. Where’s the dancers to sort all this out? :-P

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

These are the pictures I should've linked to:
http://www.mystudios.com/art/northern/bruegel/bruegel-wedding-dance-outside.jpg
http://faculty.evansville.edu/rl29/art105/img/breughel_wedding.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Wga_brueghel_wedding_dance_in_a_barn.jpg

strangely familiar!
The bloke in front of the pipers in the last picture is employing the dance hold technically known as "Gusset Grip", usually to be seen in the latter stages of a long day's wedding

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Bren

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Wow Bren, looks like quite the party!

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Some informative responses here, and interesting digressions on detail (as you'd expect here!)

And micknowall, I'm a bodhrán player myself but didn't want to mention it at first post in case the thread got waylaid by the usual sort of stuff!

I think the steady and measured rhythm comment was spot on, but it was also a challenge to play something different for each tune in a set for one dance, but keep the rhythm the dancers needed at the same time.

i'd definately recommend it to anyone who'se only played in sessions, but it is a somewhat different beast.and needs to be approached differently.

\()) that's a bodhrán :-)

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by greenman

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

I like Bren's distinction between ceilis and set dances. I enjoy playing for ceilis precisely because they tend to be more uninhibited, but playing for sets can be fun too.

Moving Cloud always did a nice job of getting the sets spot on while looking so easy and relaxed about it.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Will Harmon

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

The biggest sin in playing for set dancers is to finish the set before the dancers do! It generally means you've have't done your homework in adding up the bars for that particular set. Not so bad if the dancers finish first - they'll just clap you out.

# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

every session player should be obliged to play for critical dancers now and again. It would make life at sessons a lot easier and improve the music.

no two ceili bands are the same. some are very loose, almost sessions, taking place in front of an audience of people who like to dance, whilst others play it as tight as set dance bands with callers like sergeant majors.

the little set dance stuff I've done has felt mechanical (because of the speed) compared to the ceili music

# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by millionyears_bc

Re: playing for ceilidh different than playing for session?

Set dancing is its own thing, rooted in southern Ireland, accompanied more by slides and polkas, and as far as I have seen, always with four couples in a square. Set dancers are much more athletic in their approach, dance fast and dance hard. Lots of spinning involved....
Ceilidhe is more relaxed, and many dances are done in lines or rows of people facing each other. There is a yellow book of 30 ceilidhe dances that I used to have, that consist I believe of the Gaelic League 'approved' dances. Ceilidhes also have dances like Shoe the Donkey and the Gay Gordons, which aren't seen as truly Irish, but often get danced. Ceilidhe dances have names like the Seige of Ennis, Waves of Torrey, Walls of Limerick, etc, etc.
I had the honor of learning dance from the late Maureen Keohane of Boston, and young Keiran Jordan, also from Boston, who came down to RI for many years to give lessons both in ceilidhe and step dancing. My wife has back problems, so we don't dance any more, but I do miss it.. I am hoping someday to get back in touch with the dance world, even if it is by playing for dancers, not dancing myself. In a benefit concert recently {changing the subject to step dancing here), I got to play behind local step dancer Kevin Doyle, what a joy that was, he sure lifts up the music and musicians with his dance.

# Posted on July 25th 2009 by AlBrown

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