Hi everyone,
The debut CD 'Lads of Lash' is now available from the as yet little-known band Choonz. Ten tracks of mighty Choonz tunes not available in the shops. Check us out on Myspace at myspace.com/choonzmusic
Do give us a shout if you're interested.
A few quotes and a review:
“ What a fantastic raw and wild sound “ – Mike Wilson, reviews editor of Folking.com and live reviews editor of Green Man Review.
“ Absolutely mighty music “ – Padraig Rynne, 5-time All-Ireland concertina champion.
“ What energy and kick! “ – Phamie Gow, multi award-winning harpist.
“ The best young band around “ – Alan Doherty of Gráda.
“These young musical ‘wizards’ create with jigs & reels and their own melodies and improvisations a new, so far unsurpassed level of Celtic music, which takes one’s breath away. The liquid and unbelievable natural virtuosity in three such young musicians brought them the award of “Young Musicians of the Year 2006” at the world-renowned folk festival in Sidmouth, England, where they met that year. Brothers David and Paul Garner have multiple All-Britain fiddle and tin whistle titles (amongst many other awards) and are a rare and exciting listening experience whilst guitarist Brian Haitz provides headline-grabbing rhythms and sounds.
What sets Choonz apart is raw intensity and industry, from the often macho duelling on breakneck reels to the slow-burning grace of their slow airs, and they are a darkly edgy live act, combining their individual talents. Energetic, inventive and restless, Choonz are natural risk-takers. With human dynamo Brain Haitz’ bass-heavy guitar waging a lone assault on the listener’s diaphragm, Paul’s quick-fire whistle meets David’s ferocious fiddle head-on in the treble register. Not to be missed.”
(Ferrara International Buskers Festival, Italy, 2008)
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I've accepted your invitation to check out your music. I really disliked it, but good luck with your career. I would recommend that you change the band's name.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Man, you haven't seen real trolls until you browsed thesession.org a bit... unbelievable. I'm referring to some people who commented here, just to be clear.
As for the music, it's not my favorite style either but I think they are great in what they're trying to accomplish, and they're definitely very good musicians.
I wonder, though, why they had to name the tune Lads of Lash when it's in fact Lads of Laois, seems to be a bit disrespectful to the tune and the tradition, but then I guess I'm just a geezer
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Paraphrasing Oscar Wilde: respect or admiration from ignorant people is a worse reference than disdain from the cognoscenti. We didn't realise folk music was supposed to be limp and cuddly.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Jaysus lads, that's a bit harsh.
It's just a bit "traditional" round these parts, you know - not limp and cuddly either. Just not a lot of take-up for the more modern, crossover, "Loads of Lash" aspects of the music.
So >ignorant< is well off the mark. >Unsympathetic< would be closer.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
"respect or admiration from ignorant people is a worse reference than disdain from the cognoscenti"
~so you don't want them to buy your cd then?
Don't get me wrong... I kinda like your music. You just need to take criticism as it comes and avoid biting back. If you do... it lessons the value of what you are trying to achieve.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Playing meekly is subtle/traditional? Our 20+ Comhaltas slow air titles would disagree. This is not a trad album- only a 1/4 of the tunes are Irish in origin. Be prepared to post links of your own playing if youre prepared to criticise.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz
Thought the playing was good, quite impressive really. Although I personally really don't care very much for that style of platying. Best of luck with it anyway.
I'm less impressed with your attitude towards criticism. If you advertise your music on a site like this expect to get honest opinions back.
Griping about criticism in response to your "risk taking" music doesn't strike me as particularly "raw and wild". In fact is seems more than a little precious.
Ironically given your apparent disdain for "limp and cuddly", it would appear that you would have prefered that opinions resticted themselves to a warm embrace of your music, rather than being truthfully expressed. So what is it you want "raw and wild" opinion, or "limp and cuddly" platitudes.
Re your oscar wildism did you think of folks here as ignorant before you started this thread , or is this opinion (well more of an implied opinion to be fair) based upon peoples response to your work?
Links to posters own music: so when did that become a prerequisite for having/expressing an opinion. Have you never decried a professional footballer, painter, singer, dancer, jockey, chef, actor, politician etc? Well put an end to that until you demonstrate your ability in all of those given fields. Either that or accept that people are entitled to have opinions as listeners. Sure you may give greater or lesser weight to those opinions based on the talents of their holder, but lets not be irrational about this.
Or look at it another way, if musical ability is a prerequisite to holding a valid opinion, then it would be equally important to demosntrate musical credintials before prasie of your music could be taken seriously. This is patently absurd
I've ended up being more critical than I intended. I thought there was a fair bit to be impressed with in your music (Although I personally didn't _like_ it much). Like I said at the start. Good luck with the music, you can obviously play. But enough with the posturing
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Wow guys you come across even grumpier
than your pictures on your web site. This is a very traditional site ,what did you expect?
I listerned to the tracks not my scene suggested to my daughter (19) that she look out for you guys.
Wish I had not bothered .
Lighten up or the angst will get you.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
So if people don't like *your* style or interpretation of tunes this therefore means that they like "limp and cuddly" or "meek" tunes? Interesting logic there......
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Gentlemen! Your music and your responses on this thread sound like you have a huge chip on your shoulder! Talking smack to people who don’t like your music isn’t always the best way to spread good vibes about yourself. (Not to mention the irony of testosterone-riddled young lads smashing tunes around quoting the effeminate Oscar Wilde…)
That being said, I don’t mind a little stomp in my diddle from time to time.
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I don't think anyone is being particularly nasty to them or their
music , Ionannas.
Technically they are very good it just dosent rock my boat .
Its their attitude thats getting peoples goat.
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This sure is a gas thread; first of all a band that can't take honest criticism, then someone who dismisses such honest opinion as 'begrudgery'. I could understand the band's reaction if my original comment was ad hominem, but all I said was I dislike their music and their name. Jesus, lads, cop on...
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Well thats my opinion and like you I am entitled to it.
But be real, if you put your latest creation, up and invite others too listen , how would you feel if you received comments like those above. Does anyone care if you like it or not? did they ask? no. I was taught if ya cannae say something nice say nuthin at all. I consider it a good maxim. Fine , cut them down to size, how dare they play like that... shocking... off with their heads
Why not encourage them, compliment them? it does you no harm, its hardy relevant whether we like their music or not, or how much we like/dislike it. They are young folk doing what they love to do, and they are good at it, why put them down? can you do better? What motivates your comments? consideration for others feelings ? you think they should slow down and play like the old folk? Did you think they were going to appreciate your comments? why put them down? Its hardy friendly is it? unless you have some motivation to help them on their way? Is there some positive outcome you forsee coming from the negative comments?
Sure and thats just my opinion, no more valid than any other.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
To everyone complimentary and those with constructive criticism: Thanks!
Specifically to those who have nothing better to do with their time than slag us off:
Musical ability is an absolute prerequisite for expressing an opinion, otherwise you don’t know what you’re talking about. As far as the aesthetics goes, that’s your prerogative but its frankly not precious to respond to abuse in it’s own terms. If you don’t like it don’t buy it. We didn’t post here to fish for compliments or criticisms (for compliments see original post), we’re actually posting because this is our livelihood and don’t have the financial backing like a lot of bands have, Teada, Lau etc. It’s not posturing, it just happens to be something we’ve devoted a lot of time, money, effort and emotional energy on. And then to have it derided by people who quite frankly don’t know what they’re talking about – the same kind of people who consider Martin Hayes or The Bothy Band traditional – the kind of session bores who name-drop and have to be told who’s good before they grant any respect. Yes you might have a right to slate a band that have already made it because they are above your petty jealousies and their success makes your asinine comments pretty irrelevant anyway. But don’t be surprised if we take exception because these are not musical criticisms, rather abuse.
Re Our ““raw and wild” Wildeism” – the point we were making was that the approbation of these kind of people is the last thing we’re after; in a sense it’s a sort of compliment they don’t like it. It would bother us if they did, it would bracket us as playing the gelded music we don’t want to play. Frankly if you have good technique and musicality you can’t play passionless music. I suggest a lot of the naysayers don’t even have the technique to appreciate good music from bad – untrained ear. At least we know and know explicitly what we’re aiming for. We don’t need to justify our music – put up or shut up.
Smiley pictures? Who smiles on the front of a CD sleeve, unless they’re faking it / trying to appear fun? Will we sell more CDs if we smile? I’m smiling now, buy a CD. It’s not a professional photo shoot, just a mate taking some photos as a favour. As for inferring angst or some kind of mental health disorder / emo / unhappy teen / pretentiousness – again, it’s a photo. Is this “raw and wild” enough, can I get more “darkly edgy” (you missed that one).
Feel free to comment what you want but don’t be too surprised if we turn it back to you. And its not griping, it’s the criticism of inept critics. Even critics have to have qualifications too – well the informed ones anyway.
This is apparently a traditional site yet 99% of the bands/musicians mentioned on this site aren’t traditional – any band with a guitarist or bouzouki can’t consider themselves trad as they’ve only been used in the last century and lets just take a raw and wild guess why bands use guitar / bouzouki – because. Its. More. Powerful. Anything that wasn’t played at a crossroads dance or by itinerant pipers like Leo Rowsome / Dolan family isn’t traditional either. Tommy Potts a great exponent of the music? – as jazzy as can be. Martin Hayes – Jazz/Rock musician. The stalwarts Coleman and Morrison almost single-handedly “destroyed” the regional/parish styles because suddenly everyone wanted to play Sligo-style because they were “good” and “quite impressive” and. The. Style’s. More. Powerful. Speaking of Sligo, Matt Malloy doesn’t even play a Sligo style, or Roscommon for that matter, his own style of playing has been imitated almost without exception by every modern flute player and that’s somehow traditional music. Anyone who doesn’t play like Matt Malloy (e.g. Mike McGoldrick) plays like Frankie Kennedy, who also isn’t traditional or like Breton musicians like Jean-Michel Veillon because it’s a more punchy style, or for the hard of thinking - powerful. Frankie Gavin isn’t trad just based on the speed (and De Dannan/Dé Danann is closer to Klezmer), Sean McGuire – classical, Sean O’Riada - classical and popularist. Sharon Shannon, definitely not traditional in case you’re wondering. Tommy Peoples – and the common quote “unique style” speaks for itself. Altan – barely make trad for speed just because they’re a Donegal band but vast amounts of non-trad playing and arrangement. Shaskeen, nope. Chieftains – never trad, never pretended to be. A few more? Liz Carroll, Paddy Keenan, Eileen Ivers, Dezi Donnelly, Mary Bergin, Micho Russell, Solas and all their members, Danu, Teada etc, etc. So why listen to the above and please don’t tell me you don’t or haven’t and haven’t liked what you heard.
If however all you listen to is Paddy Canny, Marcus O Murchu, or ancient 78rpm recordings on your gramophone and maybe the Tulla Ceili Band circa 1950 for light relief, we’ll personally apologise. Must be conflicting playing the bouzouki.
Lads of Laois is actually Lads of Leith i.e. Scottish and features in several 18th century collections of Scottish tunes, so ‘apologies’ for the insult to the Scottish tradition. ‘Apologies’ for entitling an album after the naming of a set containing a tune NOT known as the Lads of Laois as the Lads of Lash. Hardly an insult to the tune to say it has lash to it either. Strictly, anyone playing reels is not playing Irish music, but we’ll let that slide. What about slides?
Honestly, don’t feel like we’re trying to exploit the tradition or something, as you’re implying. Sort of resent that, in fact. Just taking some elements of trad to their logical conclusions. For example a lot of the whistle player’s technique is just the standard – cuts, cranns, triplets, rolls. He just does them everywhere. No apologies – if it’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine. Ditto the fiddle player with advanced violin technique and lots of power, when needed. The guitarist’s style is just more powerful than any other, plus better chords.
Feel free to disagree, but can you play like this (with this technical or musical depth) and don’t say no because you “don’t want to”? I think the general problem is it’s too technically difficult or sounds that way at least so you’re inclined to think it’s not “proper” folk music. If it’s not folk music, then what is it because it’s a lot closer to trad than Flook, Lunasa or McGoldrick.
The gist, if you’re not getting it is that the tradition is a living tradition. ‘Smashing tunes around’? – obviously you haven’t heard half of our CD then. Again, limp and cuddly does not equal traditional, limp and cuddly is funnily enough limp and cuddly i.e. played without any soul. And its just boring. And soul in case you didn’t know is the most important thing about the tradition. I’m sure dancers prefer music without lift and people prefer to listen to Sean Nos songs without any heart. Wilde’s writing isn’t effeminate and are you homophobic? “Chip on our shoulder”, damn right after the comments we got after all we did was try and publicise our CD a bit. Here’s perhaps a more masculine paraphrase from Roy Keane: “Stick it up your fecking crap”.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Lol
that's pretty funny Choonz. You seem to have read many more responses to your post that I missed. Either that or you have managed to assign motives and general opinions to the board members here that have (yet) to be expressed.
"the same kind of people who consider Martin Hayes or The Bothy Band traditional – the kind of session bores who name-drop and have to be told who’s good before they grant any respect"
Personally I respect Martin Hayes musicianship, I'm sure I'd love him live. But I've never listened to one of his CDs all the way through (although to be honest I'm not all that big on commercial cds anyway, I prefer to listen to informal playing live). I'd probably enjoy one of your own sets live, but I similarly doubt I'd listen to the cd.
You are right on not everything you listed being traditional. And there is nothingw rong with pushing the boundaries or experimenting with music. But not everyone is going to like it. Some experiments work for me, others fail. I love de dannan, love what they did with bouzouki, don't care that it wasn't traditional. I think it added to the tradition.
OTOH I'm not all that keen on bands like lunasa and flook although I respect the individual musicians and have enjoyed some of their output. I don't think their type of (to my mind) overly arranged or jazzy take on the music adds anything that appeals to me. What do those bands care what I think, they're selling cds and good luck to them. And the same to yourself.
I'd also agree with you on the over-imitation of prominant players to the detriment of (a) regional and (b) personal playing styles. To my mind this is part of the pernicious influence of commercialism in music (bastard capitalism it gets everywhere and ruins everything like grit in your pieces on the beach).
Who are the session bores? all of us? are we all guilty of name-dropping. Or must we be that "kind of people" because we expressed an opinion.
Were we really supposed to visit the link but not voice opinions on the music? Or were only positive opinions allowed to be voiced? Sycophants only need reply? I thought you didn't like limp and cuddly?
Try to chill out. You actually got a reasonable cross section of responses to your music. Some folks said they really liked it, others that they really didn't. Others like myself were somewhere in the middle, appreciated that you had musical talent but didn't care too much for the style on exhibit.
Think, do you really want everyone to like your music? I thought you were supposed to be aiming at edgy and wild. Only the blandest music is going to appeal to everyone.
But seriously get a sense of perspective. No one is the centre of the musical universe. it is possible to not be blinded by your brilliance and yet still have a feel for music. Not everyones appreciation of music revolves around the latest fashion (whether that be yourselves or not)
I'll also agree with you on Oscar Wilde: since when was he effiminate. Homosexual yes. But effiminate? surely not.
If we're supposed to be intimidated by the Roy Keane quote, it made me laugh.
So one last time: lots of talent, good luck with the music. But get a grip with the attitude lads.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
That's almost tl;dr. (Too long, didn't read)
Aw come on, it's funny! Relax guys. You get on here and play internet tough guy with anyone who doesn't like your music and quote Oscar Wilde. Quoting Mike Tyson would have been more appropriate.
...and cripes! I said I LIKE a little stomp in my diddle from time to time! Cripes man. Try decaf bro.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Good post Choonz
I think you suffer from what most newcoming artists have: oversensitivity to criticism. You'll always have ignorant people who criticize any artist' work, you just gotta learn to go on with your life through criticism. But I'm pretty sure you guys will get more mature and learn to deal with this in a more constructive way. There's a great deal of talent in your band, I'm sure you guys will do quite well (said out of total ignorance, using my untrained ear).
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Azalin, I agree with most of your post.
But you'll always have ignorant people, informed people, intersted people, people with different perspectives all criticising any artists work. The whole spectrum.
Even if everyone were informed to the same degree, they're not all going to agree on the merits of any artist.
Also just as critics can be ignorant, informed etc. So can (and will) artists be ignorant, informed, gifted, crap, mediocre, genuis etc.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Most of the stuff on the threads here gets needlessly picked apart.
I think the lads were just on to draw a bit of attention to their CD. That's fair enough in my book, they've obviously put a lot of work into it. I don't think they were looking for an in depth critique. The first few comments were bluntly and unnecessarily negative, I can see why they'd be annoyed.
Might I add, when more established musicians come on to publicise a new CD, the reaction is nothing but positive. The knockers seem to be very quiet when its someone with a bit of established clout (see link below).
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
My comment was not at all 'bluntly and unnecessarily negative', and that's a patently ridiculous interpretation. I'm all for 'power', in its place, and all for 'subtlety' too, in its own place. The comment was intended as a pointer.
On certain days I might enjoy Choonz, but I know on others that I would not at all. If I were being paid to write a review, that ambivalence would be at its core.
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To expect only certain type of replies to a thread on an online, public forum is very silly in my opinion. You don't need to be asked anything to post here, that's the main idea of a public forum as far as I know.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I think you guys are wonderful musicians but I don't' hear raw and wild'.
'Sister Ray' by the Velvet Underground, The Stooges '1970', Coleman doing 'Monaghan Jig'---these are raw and wild.
Early Blues and Appalachian recordings are pretty raw and wild. Punk Rock (American-that is) first time around, was pretty raw and wild. Do people even know what raw and wild is?
Your music is fast, , precise, practiced, perfect. The opposite of raw and wild....
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Shanty: thanks for your view, the review is of a live gig. By the way the cd isnt that practiced and was done in 5 days. And that was recorded this time last year, come to a live gig if you can. Hope to see you there.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz wrote:
"Anything that wasn’t played at a crossroads dance or by itinerant pipers like Leo Rowsome / Dolan family isn’t traditional either"
Rowsome wasn't itinerant, and by Dolan do you mean Doran maybe? Need to do your homework.
"Anyone who doesn’t play like Matt Malloy (e.g. Mike McGoldrick) plays like Frankie Kennedy"
Really? Again more homework needed.
"If however all you listen to is Paddy Canny, Marcus O Murchu, or ancient 78rpm recordings on your gramophone and maybe the Tulla Ceili Band circa 1950 for light relief, we’ll personally apologise"
Apology accepted.
"Just taking some elements of trad to their logical conclusions"
Oh thanks for fastracking that for us, kinda like looking into the future eh?
"I think the general problem is it’s too technically difficult or sounds that way at least so you’re inclined to think it’s not “proper” folk music
Denials a terrible thing aint it!!!.
"I’m sure dancers prefer music without lift and people prefer to listen to Sean Nos songs without any heart."
Where the $&@* did you learn that little nugget?
Give the posters here some credit, a lot of them know their music.
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Dolan was a misprint and wasnt Rowsome taught by Johnny Doran? Did you do a little wikipedia search just to nit-pick? You still havnt really refuted any of the points iv made. And we've at least heard of these people. Counter-arguement perhaps?
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Choonz---I thought that that may be the case. I hope so. I love tunes but I, being raised on a steady diet of very raw meat for music when I was your age, have a certain dislike for over-polished music. I'm not saying the stuff on your Myspace is 'over-polished (it's not) but many people playing folk today are. If you come to the east coast of theU.S. I'll come see ya.
I got a feeling, because of your attitude on here, so far, you might just be pretty raw and wild live.
Good Luck!
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Mike McGoldrick is a clone of Matt Malloy not Frankie Kennedy - perhaps the original sentence could have been better phrased. And what exactly do you hate about us? Something has obviously got to you personally.
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Well, the band Choonz have got a fair amount of lively publicity out of this, a bit more than announcements of CDs by new bands usually get here!
I haven't heard the Choonz CD (and won't get the opportunity for a couple of weeks because of imminent holidays) but as a general rule I'd say it's good to have new bands exploring, experimenting and pushing the trad envelope, otherwise the genre will gradually fade away.
As to the identity of Choonz's wordsmith here, I think a few of us may know him, but if he wants to keep it quiet that's ok by me. I'll only say that he's not Banksy, ... erm, I think ...
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Not looked on here for ages, but now that I have I'm sure to be back. I'm really looking forwards to jig/trad/ionosphere joining in with this thread. It could be like Kill Bill 2 and would definitely be much better than MIchael Jacko's comeback.
Perhaps, taking choonz's offer of some choonz up, you could all have some gladiatorial choonz-off type of thing and see who's the best/worst at lashin tewns out - that's what it's all about in the end.
Unfortunately the results will be more subjective than proper gladiatorial combat.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
The only begrudgers on this thread have been those that would begrudge others the right to express an opinion that doesn't meet with their approval.
If you "spam" a newsgroup with your product (although I don't consider advertising a cd, concert, trad group etc on this list to be "spamming" I think it ia more than acceptible thing to do). Then you have to accept that people will express their opinions on that product. They did. Some postive, some negative, some mixed.
If you cannot accept comments on your product then either don't advertise it or perhaps add a rider to your advert along the lines of:
"the artistes concerned are easily upset by criticism, so please if you can't say something cuddly and nice keep it to yourself."
T not everyone's life revolves around a desire to make a CD. I have known dozens of wonderful trad musicians over the years who have had no desrie to make a CD or enter a competition. If you want to sell CDs and make a living out of music then fair play to you. Nothing wrong with taking that route in life if it is for you. Not everyone wants music to be their job.
And to everyone, on either side of this squabble, willing to point fingers and shouti about being out of your depth: get back into the toddlers pool of life until your behaviour improves
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I do think choonz is out of his depth - the depth being real life and opinions. HIs ideas make up the love everyone, sycophantic world he wishes to create.
The argument isn't about your music anymore choonz, it's about your reaction to criticism. You can't take it. How did you not expect to receive criticism when you play in the style you do? Not everyone is going to like it, life goes on.
But your reaction to this does and should garner criticism. Coming out with this long rant, with none of the points you made having any grounding whatsoever in an attempt to take the p i s s out of some of the people here. Again, out of your depth.
'wasnt Rowsome taught by Johnny Doran?'
Never in a million years. Rowsome was no itinerant. His father was a pipe maker and that is how Leo became involved. In fact, Doran played a set made by Rowsome.
'We didn’t post here to fish for compliments or criticisms '
Naivety. Any band who puts themselves forward like you are trying to do has to expect a reaction - either good or bad. You need to grow up and accept both.
'We don’t need to justify our music – put up or shut up.'
So that long comment was just for fun, yeah?
'Coleman and Morrison almost single-handedly “destroyed” the regional/parish styles because suddenly everyone wanted to play Sligo-style because they were “good”'
Again untrue. This style has been around for centuries. Ed Cronin's cylinders from the famine era show this musical virtuoso style existed years before coleman and morrison, dispelling the belief that playing was much 'simpler' before then. And Cronin was from munster aswell so figure that one out. McFadden and Early were the same. Their recordings from the 1800s again prove the same point that virtuoso, poweful playing was always the case and the idea that everyplace in ireland had a regional style was false. The idea of the regional style changes over time. It keeps certain traits but is permeated by other influence.
The notion of what is traditional is relative, within the confines of taste of course.
You mention so many names from the past half a century or so, saying they are not traditional. you have no idea what has been done before so how can you have an informed opinion as you say. You said it yourself;
"Even critics have to have qualifications too "
"Just taking some elements of trad to their logical conclusions"
you dont even know what the conclusion is. or where it even was at the start.
'I think the general problem is it’s too technically difficult or sounds that way at least so you’re inclined to think it’s not “proper” folk music.'
technically difficult? anyone can improve over a tune with hardly playing the tune. i listening to some of that playing there, and you might as well have not played any tunes because the improvisation was so saturating that the tune was completely lost underneath! what you're doing isn't groundbreaking by any means no matter how much you big yourselves up. I have heard countless bands like yourselves. You say you're closer to trad than lunasa or flook or the like. Actually you're just like these bands.
'soul in case you didn’t know is the most important thing about the tradition'
With the way you were going on about good technique and everything, its a bit of a p i s s take to turn around and say something like that.
'session bores who name-drop '
'we've at least heard of these people'
Speaking of nam edropping, did you think that writing that comment and throwing aload of names from the tradition would really give you some sort of argument? give some explanation behind the inclusion, otherwise why bother? are you desperately seeking some sort of approval by using the fact you have heard of these people? or did you just google 'irish traditional musicians'?
But really, it doesn't matter to you what I think. Basically just grow up. You cant expect people to be nicey nicey all the time just so you don't have to deal with criticism. Its all part of growing up so do it.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I have no doubts Mike McGoldrick would be very surprised to hear that he is a clone of Matt Molloy (it's like a weird sci fi novel!). As would the folks at Edinburgh University who cloned Dolly the sheep. Somebody better invest millions of pounds of research into flute players who spontaneously clone themselves.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Ruarifiddle -
Your post was waffly and frankly rubbish, so i'm really struggling with the ennui factor.
"Speaking of nam edropping, did you think that writing that comment and throwing aload of names from the tradition would really give you some sort of argument? give some explanation behind the inclusion, otherwise why bother? are you desperately seeking some sort of approval by using the fact you have heard of these people? or did you just google 'irish traditional musicians'?"
I picked up on this as typical of your offensive style of choosing to express yourself. The inclusion was obvious, and spelled out anyway, so you're either really being obtuse or i'm dealing with a complete moron. The point is, these guys are considered 'traditional' despite being anachronistic. Most of them - for daring to be a bit different - got flak for it. Martin Hayes for example got irate enough by it to break his fiddle over someone's head for being accused by a session bore of being 'non-traditional'. At the moment, i can really sympathise with him. Now, these guys are considered traditional, and i have no problem with that. Just that the tradition evolves. Its the typical excuse to have a go at something a litle different - as people like you always do - as long as the target of your abuse isn't well known. Because that would take intellectual integrity and not just spouting off behind an alias online. Who the hell are you anyway? Some frustrated Comhaltas musician who can barely play his instrument and never won anything, would be my best guess.
Thanks by the way for your pedantry about itinerant pipers. It was a slight generalisation in something writen off the cuff NOT involving Google, you boring little p*ssant. I was thinking of Doran, the guy who was killed in his caravan, and Willy Clancy who effectively was a protege of Doran tho not himself a traveller. And clearly there was a point with only a handful of pipers of note: Doran and Rowsome and later Seamus Ennis (tho James Ennis also played). I say thanks, because it indicates there's basically nothing wrong with my argument which was that by the strictest possible definition, very few musicians play as they once considered traditional. That the tradition has evolved -
As far as virtuoso fiddle players. Funny again what's shocking in one era becomes accepted in the next. I think Hayes is prety much in the fold now, for example. But to people like you, of course - you'd have been at the front of the line to slag off Hayes etc. Of course its easy as f u c k to call us arrogant, and again, its not about what or even how you play, is it? is it about who you know again? A kind of freemasonry of w a n k e r s - we were foolish enough to put our music up thinking it spoke for itself. Of course, people like you will happily accept the music if we approach you with the right degree of deference!! But, I'm sorry, my being willing to please doesn't extend far enough to accept needless abuse running the gamut of professional to psychological (the photos again) in the guise of advice.
And, really, if we weren't 3 young guys i doubt we'd get all the cracks about passionless music either. Of course, at the age of 26 i haven't developed a soul yet, haven't anything other than teenage angst to offer, and am only in ITM for the money, chicks and fame (This is heavy sarcasm in case you missed that). And yeah, if its immature to not just take abuse lying down, then i'm proud to be immature.
And yes, i don't respect you, or anything you have said to date.
And FYI, i'm not puting up with cracks about 'did you write your own biog' -- an agent Ray Austin promoting Irish music in Germany wrote that. (It does sound a bit pretentious and it is a lot to live up to). Should we run with only quotes that you reccomend? And about arrogance. I'm happy to boast about Dave (fiddle) and Brian (guitar) - i think they're class, and a lot to live up to. I'm the one who feels 'of his depth' at times, and i am a far harsher critic of my own music than anyone here. there are lots of aspects of my playing i don't think are great. (But, interestingly, you didn't find any of them, and lets be honest, you're not exactly shy are you?) As far as your comment :
"technically difficult? anyone can improve over a tune with hardly playing the tune. "/"you might as well have not played any tunes because the improvisation was so saturating that the tune was completely lost underneath!"
Please, please, please post some of your own music!!! I need the light relief. Please, please, show us how to play Lads of Laois or, improvise over ours and show us how easy it is!!! Trust me, i will treat your work with all the manifold respect, deference and courtesy you've shown mine in the guise of tough love. (Take that anyway you want). Or come to a session in Bristol some time, and try and pontificate in one of our sessions. I'd love to see how that would go down. And, if you can write anything like the end of the Beast, or Cliffdwellers, i will personally eat my own shorts. With salt. I'm fed up, to be honest of idiots like you, who to be honest blight ITM.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Ok T maybe I read more into your post about the Cds than was there.
HappyCamper, "the offensive style of choosing to express yourself" which has surfaced on this thread in a number of posts was introduced by your band mate Choonz (but hey I'm not going to hold that against him forever, we all have our bad moods) in response to the initial round of comments about the music samples which he advertised on this forum, thereby inviting poeple to go and listen to them, and (one would have imagined inviting comments) by implication.
For the sake of context here are the relevant comments again:
1) "I've accepted your invitation to check out your music. I really disliked it, but good luck with your career."
This poster didn't like your music but *wished you all the best with your career*
2) "Power 1 Subtlety 0"
ok a bit blunter but not exactly a personal attack
3) "I like the music, though. I'd love to see you guys live"
Thumbs up (although like #1 this guy didn't like the band's name)
4) "Not my scene either ,a smile in your pic might help too"
Dislike, voiced as a matter of taste, hardly condemnatory or offensive
5) "Davey Garner is a remarkably good teacher of traditional music"
Compliment unrelated to actaul musical link (not a criticam I'm making, it is a valid testimonial to make
6) 'Well, if "raw intensity and industry" and "macho dueling" are what you're after, I'd say you succeeded'
ok that's a rather wry put down. But then all it really says is that in this posters opinuion you succeed meet the decription put forward in the quoted blurbs, a decription that doesn't appeal to #6
7) "As for the music, it's not my favorite style either but I think they are great in what they're trying to accomplish, and they're definitely very good musicians"
Compliments on musicianship, but not this poster's prefered listening style
8) "I liked it, so I'll be getting a copy at some point. well done lads"
unreserved thumbs up, CD sold
==========
choonz intervenes at this point with first Oscar Wilde paraphrase ignorant people & the limp and cuddle comment
================
9) "I kinda like your music. You just need to take criticism as it comes and avoid biting back. If you do... it lessons the value of what you are trying to achieve"
praise for the music, not so much for the attitude
=============
choonz: lets us know about the cabinet full of CCE medals
As an aside this made me smile when I first read it, and made me smile again just now: Is it rebels we are lads, shaking down the musical establishment? Sure and here are our official "really good" badges from CCE for playing slow airs to prove our musical credentials.
Come on. Choonz. You don't need CCE trinkets to prove you can play. Nobody does. Your playing is fine, you can hear that.
You can hear that and still not be absolutley sold on the style of music.
===========================
10) "Nice music. I enjoyed your tracks and videos very much. Good luck"
another thumbs up
11( (that'd be me) "Thought the playing was good, quite impressive really. Although I personally really don't care very much for that style of platying. Best of luck with it anyway.
I'm less impressed with your attitude towards criticism..."
So there. I'm impressed with your musicianship, but don't really go for the style you have chosen to play.
===========
I'll break off on the quoting there. As the yanks say "enough already.
I fail to see any provocation in the summary above to justify the rant that Choonz went on where the members of this forum were told what "kind of people" they must be.
Read over those comments I quoted and ask yourself if there is anything to honestly take offense at. There was a fair spread of unreserved compliments, praise with reservations, and comments that your style was not to an individuals taste.
Honestly if you see yourselves as "risk takers" waht more could you hope for. Wouldn't universal appreciation have implied a blander form of music than you apparently want to create? (of course what is edgy to one person, can be to another a blunting of what went before, you particularly see these alternative perceptions when it comes to fusion forms of music: is it taking the music out somehwre dangerous and new? or is it diluting the dirt out of the music?).
Once again. Well played. I'd enjoy hearing you live no doubt.
I wouldn't buy the cd, but then I very rarely buy or listen to cds.
Good luck with the music. But calm down with the aggressive attitude it doesn't do you any favours.
As for the acceptibility of commenting on the percieved merits or otherwise of your samples: this thread popped up on our discussion board like an advert for a film on the tele. After watching the advert, the folks in this forum commented on the product. Should we refrain from commenting on whether or not the latest Harry potter movuie looked good in the trailer until we've all made our own movies to show we can do better?
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Haha! This is great craic! And to think rambling pitchfork ,that all this was brought about by choonz not being able to take a few wry remarks about their music. And then go flying off the hook because of how people reacted to THEIR reaction. I agree pitchfork.
'I picked up on this as typical of your offensive style of choosing to express yourself.'
Did you pick up on that did you, happycamper? Oh okay. Yea i was kinda going for the same thing that choonz went for that started this whole rant. But thanks for replying cause we can easily see now that it seems to be an oath that the band has taken, ie: to be as argumentative as possible.
Anyway, people don;t 'always have a go at something different. Did you not see the praise you got? Not everyone is going to like it, big deal. After that little rant of yours in an attempt to paint yourself as a martyr. Yet still you can't take criticism. Yea sure some comments as pitchfork pointed out were to be taken with a pinch of salt, but nothing to get your knickers in a twist.
'Its the typical excuse to have a go at something a litle different - as people like you always do - as long as the target of your abuse isn't well known.'
Come one. Being well known has nothing to do with it! I have on this site (not for a while now mind you) shown my dislike for certain musicians' style, well known or not so much.
'Some frustrated Comhaltas musician who can barely play his instrument and never won anything, would be my best guess'
Haha! That's great! Coming from someone defending another who earlier, and on your myspace site it should be said, talks about the plethora of medals they've achieved. And no, I'm not a comhaltas musician as some others on the site will point out but nice try.
And how really can you mix up f-u-ckin leo rowsome and willie clancy you dingbat! Jesus, you bloody mentioned the connection in two different comments. Gimme a break.
And as a matter of fact I respect Martin Hayes for what he does. Its not my type of music, but still he has done the traditional thing way before did what he is doing now. His playing is just along the boundary in my opinion.
'its not about what or even how you play, is it? is it about who you know again?'
My heart bleeds for you. That is the world of a professional musician camper, not the 'actual' world of trad music. If you dont like that craic then dont spend time striving to become a professional trad musician.
And speaking about 'psychological abuse, it says an awful lot about you mental state to fly off the hook about someone asking you to smile in a few pictures. You cant seem to see that the criticism you're getting is not personal. Yes your music is a very personal thing, but if that is your livelihood than you have to accept the fact that you have to seperate emotionally somewhat, otherwise you;ll probably have a nervous breakdown or a bloody panic attack!
'i am a far harsher critic of my own music than anyone here. there are lots of aspects of my playing i don't think are great. (But, interestingly, you didn't find any of them'
Yea, i didnt really listen the whole way through any track. anyway, i dont listen to music to find mistakes, maybe you do but hey, why shoudl I care
'Or come to a session in Bristol some time, and try and pontificate in one of our sessions'
So thats what sessions in bristol are like? people sit around a table and try and big themselves up. hmmm, no thanks. i dont need to prove anything, i'm not as insecure about my music as you seem to be.
Can't wait for you next reply! I wonder if the people reading this thread can tell who takes this more seriously, eh?
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Ive seen these lads in sessions locally and they are fantastic musicians. Far better than i will achieve in my lifetime but i have to say i get totally bored with all the ultra heavy ornamentation which to my ears destroys a tune. Im not jealous boys of your undeniable talent but you appear to be trying to ram it down peoples throats and thats not the way forward. You are all old enough to take peoples negative critisism and do something positive with it even if all you do is disagree quietly between yourselves and then bin it. Although i cant join in with your very modern approach to old session favourites i still enjoy sitting back and listening.Chill
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Where's Trucks Mulligan when you need him with the story about whipping out the anatomy and dropping it on the table at the pub? That's about what this is sounding like. "OK, drop trousers, who's got the biggest one? I'll fight all you! AARRGH!!!"
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Is there a requirement to be original Michael?
That's as opposed to having a personal style, which is always a good thing. But searching after "originality" as an end in itself strikes me as a pointless modern obsession which can result in quite a contrived artificial end product.
But then again, of course the context of your comment is that Choonz are emphasising the "risk-taking" nature of their music, so originality is implied there.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
You're right of course, there is no requirement to be original. And maybe I'm wrong to make the assumption that Chunes are wanting to be. I appologise if they don't wish to be.
It would be funny though, after their rant about all those terrific trad musicians who "aren't" traditional
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I still like them though, very good players, entertaining, they've got balls, attack, attitude, intelligence too - they are thinking about what they are doing. And quite right that they should get angry when they gat slagged. All very good points. Good on them.
There's a very high probability that they'll be brilliant when they grow up.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I think this thread was misplaced; it should have been in the recordings section. If you choose to put it in the snake pit be prepared for snakes.
I personally happen to admire musicians like Cormac Breatnach and admire what he's accomplished regardless of my own musical aspirations. I can admire and enjoy what he does even though I have no similar inclination myself; I'm having enough trouble just getting the pure trad stuff to sound right. I can see you fellas are headed off in a similar direction as Cormac Breatnach and others like him, and I think you'll have great success, my only advice is to avoid the snake pit next time you release a CD.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz and other up and coming pros - I don't think you guys
should be rolling around in the beer and sawdust on this site.
It's smarter to just post your announcements and stand back and
let the punters have their fun. You don't want to alienate the
(potentional) fans.
On the other hand, it think it's bad to try and tear down
young people who are trying to take this music forward. It's _their_
music. They'll be the Paddy Cannys and Tommy Peoples
of 2050, not the rest of us.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Fiddleruari said "Basically just grow up", and how right he was.
I stood up for these guys earlier in this thread as they are good players not afraid to do something new whilst obviously very capable of playing in a more trad style where appropriate. Following their submission to the tunes section I regret that support. Their childishness and insecurity really lets them down. I won't put a link here to the tune but the asterisk in the title was an edit.
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Hmm - well this was an amusing little thread. I initially wasn't going to comment but I am bored right now
I personally like the music and I don't mind admitting it. A very talented trio I believe. Like an earlier poster, I'm not crazy about the name but it's not my band so who cares what I think. I must say that I do think the (over)reaction to criticism was a little like shooting yourself in the foot. While I am not a very active poster to this site and also fairly new to the trad scene a lot of the 'regulars' here are very knowledgeable - including one I know personally who has commented here that is extremely talented and open minded. There are others here who seem quite adept at being somewhat closed minded to new ideas and very quick to voice that opinion - that is their right and also the point of a forum such as this. A gracious "thank you for your honest opinion" might have served you better in the long run on this site.
The one point I would like to make is over the dreaded song title issue - while I would not have named a tune that, I have no problem with the word. We as a species have become WAY TOO SENSITIVE over words. In the UK it is used among young males as the N word is used in the US by those who it supposedly offends (among themselves of course). Get over yourself if it bothers you. If you are so concerned that a child might encounter it then there are things much more offensive and dangerous these children could encounter on a regular basis. You'll let them watch countless acts of violence on prime time television but are afraid of a silly little word - come on. I'd be willing to bet in five or ten years they wouldn't dream of using a word like that in a song title. I can't see it being played at sessions tho'. Imagine calling out "Ok, the next tune is......". Any females there would bitc4 slap you !
Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Hi everyone,
The debut CD 'Lads of Lash' is now available from the as yet little-known band Choonz. Ten tracks of mighty Choonz tunes not available in the shops. Check us out on Myspace at myspace.com/choonzmusic
Do give us a shout if you're interested.
A few quotes and a review:
“ What a fantastic raw and wild sound “ – Mike Wilson, reviews editor of Folking.com and live reviews editor of Green Man Review.
“ Absolutely mighty music “ – Padraig Rynne, 5-time All-Ireland concertina champion.
“ What energy and kick! “ – Phamie Gow, multi award-winning harpist.
“ The best young band around “ – Alan Doherty of Gráda.
“These young musical ‘wizards’ create with jigs & reels and their own melodies and improvisations a new, so far unsurpassed level of Celtic music, which takes one’s breath away. The liquid and unbelievable natural virtuosity in three such young musicians brought them the award of “Young Musicians of the Year 2006” at the world-renowned folk festival in Sidmouth, England, where they met that year. Brothers David and Paul Garner have multiple All-Britain fiddle and tin whistle titles (amongst many other awards) and are a rare and exciting listening experience whilst guitarist Brian Haitz provides headline-grabbing rhythms and sounds.
What sets Choonz apart is raw intensity and industry, from the often macho duelling on breakneck reels to the slow-burning grace of their slow airs, and they are a darkly edgy live act, combining their individual talents. Energetic, inventive and restless, Choonz are natural risk-takers. With human dynamo Brain Haitz’ bass-heavy guitar waging a lone assault on the listener’s diaphragm, Paul’s quick-fire whistle meets David’s ferocious fiddle head-on in the treble register. Not to be missed.”
(Ferrara International Buskers Festival, Italy, 2008)
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I've accepted your invitation to check out your music. I really disliked it, but good luck with your career. I would recommend that you change the band's name.
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by molaoch
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Power 1 Subtlety 0 (and now back to Ray Stubbs in the studio).
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Have to say I hate the name too - it's a bit "rave"
I like the music, though. I'd love to see you guys live.
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Not my scene either ,a smile in your pic might help too
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Davey Garner is a remarkably good teacher of traditional music too, both in workshops and face-to-face.
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Well, if "raw intensity and industry" and "macho dueling" are what you're after, I'd say you succeeded.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Man, you haven't seen real trolls until you browsed thesession.org a bit... unbelievable. I'm referring to some people who commented here, just to be clear.
As for the music, it's not my favorite style either but I think they are great in what they're trying to accomplish, and they're definitely very good musicians.
I wonder, though, why they had to name the tune Lads of Lash when it's in fact Lads of Laois, seems to be a bit disrespectful to the tune and the tradition, but then I guess I'm just a geezer
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Azalin
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
jeez...I liked it, so I'll be getting a copy at some point. well done lads.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by mickyfong
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Azalin, it's a play on words, as in "lash out a tune," or "give it the lash." And their music lives up to that image.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Paraphrasing Oscar Wilde: respect or admiration from ignorant people is a worse reference than disdain from the cognoscenti. We didn't realise folk music was supposed to be limp and cuddly.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Jaysus lads, that's a bit harsh.
It's just a bit "traditional" round these parts, you know - not limp and cuddly either. Just not a lot of take-up for the more modern, crossover, "Loads of Lash" aspects of the music.
So >ignorant< is well off the mark. >Unsympathetic< would be closer.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
"respect or admiration from ignorant people is a worse reference than disdain from the cognoscenti"
~so you don't want them to buy your cd then?
Don't get me wrong... I kinda like your music. You just need to take criticism as it comes and avoid biting back. If you do... it lessons the value of what you are trying to achieve.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by davydd
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Playing meekly is subtle/traditional? Our 20+ Comhaltas slow air titles would disagree. This is not a trad album- only a 1/4 of the tunes are Irish in origin. Be prepared to post links of your own playing if youre prepared to criticise.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Nice music. I enjoyed your tracks and videos very much. Good luck. Looks like your Oscar Wilde thing hasn't been understood!
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by McDermott
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz
Thought the playing was good, quite impressive really. Although I personally really don't care very much for that style of platying. Best of luck with it anyway.
I'm less impressed with your attitude towards criticism. If you advertise your music on a site like this expect to get honest opinions back.
Griping about criticism in response to your "risk taking" music doesn't strike me as particularly "raw and wild". In fact is seems more than a little precious.
Ironically given your apparent disdain for "limp and cuddly", it would appear that you would have prefered that opinions resticted themselves to a warm embrace of your music, rather than being truthfully expressed. So what is it you want "raw and wild" opinion, or "limp and cuddly" platitudes.
Re your oscar wildism did you think of folks here as ignorant before you started this thread , or is this opinion (well more of an implied opinion to be fair) based upon peoples response to your work?
Links to posters own music: so when did that become a prerequisite for having/expressing an opinion. Have you never decried a professional footballer, painter, singer, dancer, jockey, chef, actor, politician etc? Well put an end to that until you demonstrate your ability in all of those given fields. Either that or accept that people are entitled to have opinions as listeners. Sure you may give greater or lesser weight to those opinions based on the talents of their holder, but lets not be irrational about this.
Or look at it another way, if musical ability is a prerequisite to holding a valid opinion, then it would be equally important to demosntrate musical credintials before prasie of your music could be taken seriously. This is patently absurd
I've ended up being more critical than I intended. I thought there was a fair bit to be impressed with in your music (Although I personally didn't _like_ it much). Like I said at the start. Good luck with the music, you can obviously play. But enough with the posturing
- Chris
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Wow guys you come across even grumpier
than your pictures on your web site. This is a very traditional site ,what did you expect?
I listerned to the tracks not my scene suggested to my daughter (19) that she look out for you guys.
Wish I had not bothered .
Lighten up or the angst will get you.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
So if people don't like *your* style or interpretation of tunes this therefore means that they like "limp and cuddly" or "meek" tunes? Interesting logic there......
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Gentlemen! Your music and your responses on this thread sound like you have a huge chip on your shoulder! Talking smack to people who don’t like your music isn’t always the best way to spread good vibes about yourself. (Not to mention the irony of testosterone-riddled young lads smashing tunes around quoting the effeminate Oscar Wilde…)
That being said, I don’t mind a little stomp in my diddle from time to time.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Lovely stuff lads. keep at it, enjoy your music. Ignore the begrudgers.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I don't think anyone is being particularly nasty to them or their
music , Ionannas.
Technically they are very good it just dosent rock my boat .
Its their attitude thats getting peoples goat.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
This sure is a gas thread; first of all a band that can't take honest criticism, then someone who dismisses such honest opinion as 'begrudgery'. I could understand the band's reaction if my original comment was ad hominem, but all I said was I dislike their music and their name. Jesus, lads, cop on...
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by molaoch
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Enjoy the music lads, well done on getting the album together.
Try not to let the trad police with their big hairy hands and nostrils bother ye!
Oh the begrudgery AND moaning................
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by T
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Well thats my opinion and like you I am entitled to it.
But be real, if you put your latest creation, up and invite others too listen , how would you feel if you received comments like those above. Does anyone care if you like it or not? did they ask? no. I was taught if ya cannae say something nice say nuthin at all. I consider it a good maxim. Fine , cut them down to size, how dare they play like that... shocking... off with their heads
Why not encourage them, compliment them? it does you no harm, its hardy relevant whether we like their music or not, or how much we like/dislike it. They are young folk doing what they love to do, and they are good at it, why put them down? can you do better? What motivates your comments? consideration for others feelings ? you think they should slow down and play like the old folk? Did you think they were going to appreciate your comments? why put them down? Its hardy friendly is it? unless you have some motivation to help them on their way? Is there some positive outcome you forsee coming from the negative comments?
Sure and thats just my opinion, no more valid than any other.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
To everyone complimentary and those with constructive criticism: Thanks!
Specifically to those who have nothing better to do with their time than slag us off:
Musical ability is an absolute prerequisite for expressing an opinion, otherwise you don’t know what you’re talking about. As far as the aesthetics goes, that’s your prerogative but its frankly not precious to respond to abuse in it’s own terms. If you don’t like it don’t buy it. We didn’t post here to fish for compliments or criticisms (for compliments see original post), we’re actually posting because this is our livelihood and don’t have the financial backing like a lot of bands have, Teada, Lau etc. It’s not posturing, it just happens to be something we’ve devoted a lot of time, money, effort and emotional energy on. And then to have it derided by people who quite frankly don’t know what they’re talking about – the same kind of people who consider Martin Hayes or The Bothy Band traditional – the kind of session bores who name-drop and have to be told who’s good before they grant any respect. Yes you might have a right to slate a band that have already made it because they are above your petty jealousies and their success makes your asinine comments pretty irrelevant anyway. But don’t be surprised if we take exception because these are not musical criticisms, rather abuse.
Re Our ““raw and wild” Wildeism” – the point we were making was that the approbation of these kind of people is the last thing we’re after; in a sense it’s a sort of compliment they don’t like it. It would bother us if they did, it would bracket us as playing the gelded music we don’t want to play. Frankly if you have good technique and musicality you can’t play passionless music. I suggest a lot of the naysayers don’t even have the technique to appreciate good music from bad – untrained ear. At least we know and know explicitly what we’re aiming for. We don’t need to justify our music – put up or shut up.
Smiley pictures? Who smiles on the front of a CD sleeve, unless they’re faking it / trying to appear fun? Will we sell more CDs if we smile? I’m smiling now, buy a CD. It’s not a professional photo shoot, just a mate taking some photos as a favour. As for inferring angst or some kind of mental health disorder / emo / unhappy teen / pretentiousness – again, it’s a photo. Is this “raw and wild” enough, can I get more “darkly edgy” (you missed that one).
Feel free to comment what you want but don’t be too surprised if we turn it back to you. And its not griping, it’s the criticism of inept critics. Even critics have to have qualifications too – well the informed ones anyway.
This is apparently a traditional site yet 99% of the bands/musicians mentioned on this site aren’t traditional – any band with a guitarist or bouzouki can’t consider themselves trad as they’ve only been used in the last century and lets just take a raw and wild guess why bands use guitar / bouzouki – because. Its. More. Powerful. Anything that wasn’t played at a crossroads dance or by itinerant pipers like Leo Rowsome / Dolan family isn’t traditional either. Tommy Potts a great exponent of the music? – as jazzy as can be. Martin Hayes – Jazz/Rock musician. The stalwarts Coleman and Morrison almost single-handedly “destroyed” the regional/parish styles because suddenly everyone wanted to play Sligo-style because they were “good” and “quite impressive” and. The. Style’s. More. Powerful. Speaking of Sligo, Matt Malloy doesn’t even play a Sligo style, or Roscommon for that matter, his own style of playing has been imitated almost without exception by every modern flute player and that’s somehow traditional music. Anyone who doesn’t play like Matt Malloy (e.g. Mike McGoldrick) plays like Frankie Kennedy, who also isn’t traditional or like Breton musicians like Jean-Michel Veillon because it’s a more punchy style, or for the hard of thinking - powerful. Frankie Gavin isn’t trad just based on the speed (and De Dannan/Dé Danann is closer to Klezmer), Sean McGuire – classical, Sean O’Riada - classical and popularist. Sharon Shannon, definitely not traditional in case you’re wondering. Tommy Peoples – and the common quote “unique style” speaks for itself. Altan – barely make trad for speed just because they’re a Donegal band but vast amounts of non-trad playing and arrangement. Shaskeen, nope. Chieftains – never trad, never pretended to be. A few more? Liz Carroll, Paddy Keenan, Eileen Ivers, Dezi Donnelly, Mary Bergin, Micho Russell, Solas and all their members, Danu, Teada etc, etc. So why listen to the above and please don’t tell me you don’t or haven’t and haven’t liked what you heard.
If however all you listen to is Paddy Canny, Marcus O Murchu, or ancient 78rpm recordings on your gramophone and maybe the Tulla Ceili Band circa 1950 for light relief, we’ll personally apologise. Must be conflicting playing the bouzouki.
Lads of Laois is actually Lads of Leith i.e. Scottish and features in several 18th century collections of Scottish tunes, so ‘apologies’ for the insult to the Scottish tradition. ‘Apologies’ for entitling an album after the naming of a set containing a tune NOT known as the Lads of Laois as the Lads of Lash. Hardly an insult to the tune to say it has lash to it either. Strictly, anyone playing reels is not playing Irish music, but we’ll let that slide. What about slides?
Honestly, don’t feel like we’re trying to exploit the tradition or something, as you’re implying. Sort of resent that, in fact. Just taking some elements of trad to their logical conclusions. For example a lot of the whistle player’s technique is just the standard – cuts, cranns, triplets, rolls. He just does them everywhere. No apologies – if it’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine. Ditto the fiddle player with advanced violin technique and lots of power, when needed. The guitarist’s style is just more powerful than any other, plus better chords.
Feel free to disagree, but can you play like this (with this technical or musical depth) and don’t say no because you “don’t want to”? I think the general problem is it’s too technically difficult or sounds that way at least so you’re inclined to think it’s not “proper” folk music. If it’s not folk music, then what is it because it’s a lot closer to trad than Flook, Lunasa or McGoldrick.
The gist, if you’re not getting it is that the tradition is a living tradition. ‘Smashing tunes around’? – obviously you haven’t heard half of our CD then. Again, limp and cuddly does not equal traditional, limp and cuddly is funnily enough limp and cuddly i.e. played without any soul. And its just boring. And soul in case you didn’t know is the most important thing about the tradition. I’m sure dancers prefer music without lift and people prefer to listen to Sean Nos songs without any heart. Wilde’s writing isn’t effeminate and are you homophobic? “Chip on our shoulder”, damn right after the comments we got after all we did was try and publicise our CD a bit. Here’s perhaps a more masculine paraphrase from Roy Keane: “Stick it up your fecking crap”.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Excellent rant Choonz!!! Have to say, even though personally I buy mostly more middle of the road trad, I agree with the majority of what you say.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
that's pretty funny Choonz. You seem to have read many more responses to your post that I missed. Either that or you have managed to assign motives and general opinions to the board members here that have (yet) to be expressed.
"the same kind of people who consider Martin Hayes or The Bothy Band traditional – the kind of session bores who name-drop and have to be told who’s good before they grant any respect"
Personally I respect Martin Hayes musicianship, I'm sure I'd love him live. But I've never listened to one of his CDs all the way through (although to be honest I'm not all that big on commercial cds anyway, I prefer to listen to informal playing live). I'd probably enjoy one of your own sets live, but I similarly doubt I'd listen to the cd.
You are right on not everything you listed being traditional. And there is nothingw rong with pushing the boundaries or experimenting with music. But not everyone is going to like it. Some experiments work for me, others fail. I love de dannan, love what they did with bouzouki, don't care that it wasn't traditional. I think it added to the tradition.
OTOH I'm not all that keen on bands like lunasa and flook although I respect the individual musicians and have enjoyed some of their output. I don't think their type of (to my mind) overly arranged or jazzy take on the music adds anything that appeals to me. What do those bands care what I think, they're selling cds and good luck to them. And the same to yourself.
I'd also agree with you on the over-imitation of prominant players to the detriment of (a) regional and (b) personal playing styles. To my mind this is part of the pernicious influence of commercialism in music (bastard capitalism it gets everywhere and ruins everything like grit in your pieces on the beach).
Who are the session bores? all of us? are we all guilty of name-dropping. Or must we be that "kind of people" because we expressed an opinion.
Were we really supposed to visit the link but not voice opinions on the music? Or were only positive opinions allowed to be voiced? Sycophants only need reply? I thought you didn't like limp and cuddly?
Try to chill out. You actually got a reasonable cross section of responses to your music. Some folks said they really liked it, others that they really didn't. Others like myself were somewhere in the middle, appreciated that you had musical talent but didn't care too much for the style on exhibit.
Think, do you really want everyone to like your music? I thought you were supposed to be aiming at edgy and wild. Only the blandest music is going to appeal to everyone.
But seriously get a sense of perspective. No one is the centre of the musical universe. it is possible to not be blinded by your brilliance and yet still have a feel for music. Not everyones appreciation of music revolves around the latest fashion (whether that be yourselves or not)
I'll also agree with you on Oscar Wilde: since when was he effiminate. Homosexual yes. But effiminate?
If we're supposed to be intimidated by the Roy Keane quote, it made me laugh.
So one last time: lots of talent, good luck with the music. But get a grip with the attitude lads.
- Chris
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
That's almost tl;dr. (Too long, didn't read)
Aw come on, it's funny! Relax guys. You get on here and play internet tough guy with anyone who doesn't like your music and quote Oscar Wilde. Quoting Mike Tyson would have been more appropriate.
...and cripes! I said I LIKE a little stomp in my diddle from time to time! Cripes man. Try decaf bro.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Good post Choonz
I think you suffer from what most newcoming artists have: oversensitivity to criticism. You'll always have ignorant people who criticize any artist' work, you just gotta learn to go on with your life through criticism. But I'm pretty sure you guys will get more mature and learn to deal with this in a more constructive way. There's a great deal of talent in your band, I'm sure you guys will do quite well (said out of total ignorance, using my untrained ear).
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Azalin
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Azalin, I agree with most of your post.
But you'll always have ignorant people, informed people, intersted people, people with different perspectives all criticising any artists work. The whole spectrum.
Even if everyone were informed to the same degree, they're not all going to agree on the merits of any artist.
Also just as critics can be ignorant, informed etc. So can (and will) artists be ignorant, informed, gifted, crap, mediocre, genuis etc.
- Chris
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Most of the stuff on the threads here gets needlessly picked apart.
I think the lads were just on to draw a bit of attention to their CD. That's fair enough in my book, they've obviously put a lot of work into it. I don't think they were looking for an in depth critique. The first few comments were bluntly and unnecessarily negative, I can see why they'd be annoyed.
Might I add, when more established musicians come on to publicise a new CD, the reaction is nothing but positive. The knockers seem to be very quiet when its someone with a bit of established clout (see link below).
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20835/comments#comment433975
If you don't like it, don't listen to it and don't bother moaning about it either.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by T
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
My comment was not at all 'bluntly and unnecessarily negative', and that's a patently ridiculous interpretation. I'm all for 'power', in its place, and all for 'subtlety' too, in its own place. The comment was intended as a pointer.
On certain days I might enjoy Choonz, but I know on others that I would not at all. If I were being paid to write a review, that ambivalence would be at its core.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Try some 'subtlety' in your comments then Flossy.
You're not being asked, never-mind being paid to write a review.
The comments at the start of this thread were hardly ambivalent either. Siobhán Long can rest easy for now I'd say......
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by T
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
To expect only certain type of replies to a thread on an online, public forum is very silly in my opinion. You don't need to be asked anything to post here, that's the main idea of a public forum as far as I know.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Azalin
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I think you guys are wonderful musicians but I don't' hear raw and wild'.
'Sister Ray' by the Velvet Underground, The Stooges '1970', Coleman doing 'Monaghan Jig'---these are raw and wild.
Early Blues and Appalachian recordings are pretty raw and wild. Punk Rock (American-that is) first time around, was pretty raw and wild. Do people even know what raw and wild is?
Your music is fast, , precise, practiced, perfect. The opposite of raw and wild....
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by shanty
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Fes up, lads of Choonz - who is the wordsmith that penned these postings? As for taking sides, I will remain mute.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by will morgan
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
'Try some 'subtlety' in your comments then Flossy.
'You're not being asked, never-mind being paid to write a review.
'The comments at the start of this thread were hardly ambivalent either. Siobhán Long can rest easy for now I'd say......'
Who the flying feck, asked you, T?
You're really out of your depth, you know, so get off my back!
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Shanty: thanks for your view, the review is of a live gig. By the way the cd isnt that practiced and was done in 5 days. And that was recorded this time last year, come to a live gig if you can. Hope to see you there.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz wrote:
"Anything that wasn’t played at a crossroads dance or by itinerant pipers like Leo Rowsome / Dolan family isn’t traditional either"
Rowsome wasn't itinerant, and by Dolan do you mean Doran maybe? Need to do your homework.
"Anyone who doesn’t play like Matt Malloy (e.g. Mike McGoldrick) plays like Frankie Kennedy"
Really? Again more homework needed.
"If however all you listen to is Paddy Canny, Marcus O Murchu, or ancient 78rpm recordings on your gramophone and maybe the Tulla Ceili Band circa 1950 for light relief, we’ll personally apologise"
Apology accepted.
"Just taking some elements of trad to their logical conclusions"
Oh thanks for fastracking that for us, kinda like looking into the future eh?
"I think the general problem is it’s too technically difficult or sounds that way at least so you’re inclined to think it’s not “proper” folk music
Denials a terrible thing aint it!!!.
"I’m sure dancers prefer music without lift and people prefer to listen to Sean Nos songs without any heart."
Where the $&@* did you learn that little nugget?
Give the posters here some credit, a lot of them know their music.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Floss the tethers: why not come and have a few tunes with us and see whos out of whos depth?
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Dolan was a misprint and wasnt Rowsome taught by Johnny Doran? Did you do a little wikipedia search just to nit-pick? You still havnt really refuted any of the points iv made. And we've at least heard of these people. Counter-arguement perhaps?
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz---I thought that that may be the case. I hope so. I love tunes but I, being raised on a steady diet of very raw meat for music when I was your age, have a certain dislike for over-polished music. I'm not saying the stuff on your Myspace is 'over-polished (it's not) but many people playing folk today are. If you come to the east coast of theU.S. I'll come see ya.
I got a feeling, because of your attitude on here, so far, you might just be pretty raw and wild live.
Good Luck!
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by shanty
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Mike McGoldrick is a clone of Matt Malloy not Frankie Kennedy - perhaps the original sentence could have been better phrased. And what exactly do you hate about us? Something has obviously got to you personally.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
You're clearly a well-balanced lad, Choonz - a chip on both shoulders!
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Cheers shanty, we'll do our best to make it to the US.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
If by well-balanced you mean we should be a doormat when we're repeatedly slagged off, you're dead wrong. The offer of a few tunes still stands.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Well, the band Choonz have got a fair amount of lively publicity out of this, a bit more than announcements of CDs by new bands usually get here!
I haven't heard the Choonz CD (and won't get the opportunity for a couple of weeks because of imminent holidays) but as a general rule I'd say it's good to have new bands exploring, experimenting and pushing the trad envelope, otherwise the genre will gradually fade away.
As to the identity of Choonz's wordsmith here, I think a few of us may know him, but if he wants to keep it quiet that's ok by me. I'll only say that he's not Banksy, ... erm, I think ...
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Flossy!
I think its for me to judge when I'm out of my depth, thanks!
Maybe have a go at making your own CD (instead of uploading and berating other peoples work) and put it up for a few "pointers" and comments here.
All that bile can't be healthy. It's funny how a thread like this brings all the begrudgers out of the woodwork.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by T
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Not looked on here for ages, but now that I have I'm sure to be back. I'm really looking forwards to jig/trad/ionosphere joining in with this thread. It could be like Kill Bill 2 and would definitely be much better than MIchael Jacko's comeback.
Perhaps, taking choonz's offer of some choonz up, you could all have some gladiatorial choonz-off type of thing and see who's the best/worst at lashin tewns out - that's what it's all about in the end.
Unfortunately the results will be more subjective than proper gladiatorial combat.
# Posted on July 22nd 2009 by pavlf
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I listened. I yawned.
But in defense of the music I would like to add that I did not throw up. I yawned again.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
The only begrudgers on this thread have been those that would begrudge others the right to express an opinion that doesn't meet with their approval.
If you "spam" a newsgroup with your product (although I don't consider advertising a cd, concert, trad group etc on this list to be "spamming" I think it ia more than acceptible thing to do). Then you have to accept that people will express their opinions on that product. They did. Some postive, some negative, some mixed.
If you cannot accept comments on your product then either don't advertise it or perhaps add a rider to your advert along the lines of:
"the artistes concerned are easily upset by criticism, so please if you can't say something cuddly and nice keep it to yourself."
T not everyone's life revolves around a desire to make a CD. I have known dozens of wonderful trad musicians over the years who have had no desrie to make a CD or enter a competition. If you want to sell CDs and make a living out of music then fair play to you. Nothing wrong with taking that route in life if it is for you. Not everyone wants music to be their job.
And to everyone, on either side of this squabble, willing to point fingers and shouti about being out of your depth: get back into the toddlers pool of life until your behaviour improves
- Chris
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I do think choonz is out of his depth - the depth being real life and opinions. HIs ideas make up the love everyone, sycophantic world he wishes to create.
The argument isn't about your music anymore choonz, it's about your reaction to criticism. You can't take it. How did you not expect to receive criticism when you play in the style you do? Not everyone is going to like it, life goes on.
But your reaction to this does and should garner criticism. Coming out with this long rant, with none of the points you made having any grounding whatsoever in an attempt to take the p i s s out of some of the people here. Again, out of your depth.
'wasnt Rowsome taught by Johnny Doran?'
Never in a million years. Rowsome was no itinerant. His father was a pipe maker and that is how Leo became involved. In fact, Doran played a set made by Rowsome.
'We didn’t post here to fish for compliments or criticisms '
Naivety. Any band who puts themselves forward like you are trying to do has to expect a reaction - either good or bad. You need to grow up and accept both.
'We don’t need to justify our music – put up or shut up.'
So that long comment was just for fun, yeah?
'Coleman and Morrison almost single-handedly “destroyed” the regional/parish styles because suddenly everyone wanted to play Sligo-style because they were “good”'
Again untrue. This style has been around for centuries. Ed Cronin's cylinders from the famine era show this musical virtuoso style existed years before coleman and morrison, dispelling the belief that playing was much 'simpler' before then. And Cronin was from munster aswell so figure that one out. McFadden and Early were the same. Their recordings from the 1800s again prove the same point that virtuoso, poweful playing was always the case and the idea that everyplace in ireland had a regional style was false. The idea of the regional style changes over time. It keeps certain traits but is permeated by other influence.
The notion of what is traditional is relative, within the confines of taste of course.
You mention so many names from the past half a century or so, saying they are not traditional. you have no idea what has been done before so how can you have an informed opinion as you say. You said it yourself;
"Even critics have to have qualifications too "
"Just taking some elements of trad to their logical conclusions"
you dont even know what the conclusion is. or where it even was at the start.
'I think the general problem is it’s too technically difficult or sounds that way at least so you’re inclined to think it’s not “proper” folk music.'
technically difficult? anyone can improve over a tune with hardly playing the tune. i listening to some of that playing there, and you might as well have not played any tunes because the improvisation was so saturating that the tune was completely lost underneath! what you're doing isn't groundbreaking by any means no matter how much you big yourselves up. I have heard countless bands like yourselves. You say you're closer to trad than lunasa or flook or the like. Actually you're just like these bands.
'soul in case you didn’t know is the most important thing about the tradition'
With the way you were going on about good technique and everything, its a bit of a p i s s take to turn around and say something like that.
'session bores who name-drop '
'we've at least heard of these people'
Speaking of nam edropping, did you think that writing that comment and throwing aload of names from the tradition would really give you some sort of argument? give some explanation behind the inclusion, otherwise why bother? are you desperately seeking some sort of approval by using the fact you have heard of these people? or did you just google 'irish traditional musicians'?
But really, it doesn't matter to you what I think. Basically just grow up. You cant expect people to be nicey nicey all the time just so you don't have to deal with criticism. Its all part of growing up so do it.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
that would be;
anyone can *improvise* over a tune
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I have no doubts Mike McGoldrick would be very surprised to hear that he is a clone of Matt Molloy (it's like a weird sci fi novel!). As would the folks at Edinburgh University who cloned Dolly the sheep. Somebody better invest millions of pounds of research into flute players who spontaneously clone themselves.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Ramblingpitchfork
My point about making a CD though was more to do with manners than anything else.
I couldn't care less who makes a CD, who reckons their technique is supreme, OR who's more trad than the next person.
I just genuinely doubt that internet warriors are as forthright in the real world. Why can't people go and play a few tunes instead of sniping?!
No one is forcing the music on anyone, people make up their own minds what they spend their cash on.
If you don't like something, why waste your energy on it?
(.....But feel free if ye want to! I've work to be doing!)
On a completely and utterly unrelated note, here's a nice video I found this morning! Relax everybody!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpWM0FNPZSs
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by T
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
It's the Energizer thread! Nothing outlasts the Threadalizer! It keeps going and going and going and going...
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Ruarifiddle -
Your post was waffly and frankly rubbish, so i'm really struggling with the ennui factor.
"Speaking of nam edropping, did you think that writing that comment and throwing aload of names from the tradition would really give you some sort of argument? give some explanation behind the inclusion, otherwise why bother? are you desperately seeking some sort of approval by using the fact you have heard of these people? or did you just google 'irish traditional musicians'?"
I picked up on this as typical of your offensive style of choosing to express yourself. The inclusion was obvious, and spelled out anyway, so you're either really being obtuse or i'm dealing with a complete moron. The point is, these guys are considered 'traditional' despite being anachronistic. Most of them - for daring to be a bit different - got flak for it. Martin Hayes for example got irate enough by it to break his fiddle over someone's head for being accused by a session bore of being 'non-traditional'. At the moment, i can really sympathise with him. Now, these guys are considered traditional, and i have no problem with that. Just that the tradition evolves. Its the typical excuse to have a go at something a litle different - as people like you always do - as long as the target of your abuse isn't well known. Because that would take intellectual integrity and not just spouting off behind an alias online. Who the hell are you anyway? Some frustrated Comhaltas musician who can barely play his instrument and never won anything, would be my best guess.
Thanks by the way for your pedantry about itinerant pipers. It was a slight generalisation in something writen off the cuff NOT involving Google, you boring little p*ssant. I was thinking of Doran, the guy who was killed in his caravan, and Willy Clancy who effectively was a protege of Doran tho not himself a traveller. And clearly there was a point with only a handful of pipers of note: Doran and Rowsome and later Seamus Ennis (tho James Ennis also played). I say thanks, because it indicates there's basically nothing wrong with my argument which was that by the strictest possible definition, very few musicians play as they once considered traditional. That the tradition has evolved -
As far as virtuoso fiddle players. Funny again what's shocking in one era becomes accepted in the next. I think Hayes is prety much in the fold now, for example. But to people like you, of course - you'd have been at the front of the line to slag off Hayes etc. Of course its easy as f u c k to call us arrogant, and again, its not about what or even how you play, is it? is it about who you know again? A kind of freemasonry of w a n k e r s - we were foolish enough to put our music up thinking it spoke for itself. Of course, people like you will happily accept the music if we approach you with the right degree of deference!! But, I'm sorry, my being willing to please doesn't extend far enough to accept needless abuse running the gamut of professional to psychological (the photos again) in the guise of advice.
And, really, if we weren't 3 young guys i doubt we'd get all the cracks about passionless music either. Of course, at the age of 26 i haven't developed a soul yet, haven't anything other than teenage angst to offer, and am only in ITM for the money, chicks and fame (This is heavy sarcasm in case you missed that). And yeah, if its immature to not just take abuse lying down, then i'm proud to be immature.
And yes, i don't respect you, or anything you have said to date.
And FYI, i'm not puting up with cracks about 'did you write your own biog' -- an agent Ray Austin promoting Irish music in Germany wrote that. (It does sound a bit pretentious and it is a lot to live up to). Should we run with only quotes that you reccomend? And about arrogance. I'm happy to boast about Dave (fiddle) and Brian (guitar) - i think they're class, and a lot to live up to. I'm the one who feels 'of his depth' at times, and i am a far harsher critic of my own music than anyone here. there are lots of aspects of my playing i don't think are great. (But, interestingly, you didn't find any of them, and lets be honest, you're not exactly shy are you?) As far as your comment :
"technically difficult? anyone can improve over a tune with hardly playing the tune. "/"you might as well have not played any tunes because the improvisation was so saturating that the tune was completely lost underneath!"
Please, please, please post some of your own music!!! I need the light relief. Please, please, show us how to play Lads of Laois or, improvise over ours and show us how easy it is!!! Trust me, i will treat your work with all the manifold respect, deference and courtesy you've shown mine in the guise of tough love. (Take that anyway you want). Or come to a session in Bristol some time, and try and pontificate in one of our sessions. I'd love to see how that would go down. And, if you can write anything like the end of the Beast, or Cliffdwellers, i will personally eat my own shorts. With salt. I'm fed up, to be honest of idiots like you, who to be honest blight ITM.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by TheHappyCamper
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
oh, yeah: this is Paul Garner (whistle player) and not David Garner (fiddle player) who wrote most of yesterdays posts for Choonz.
Regards
P.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by TheHappyCamper
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
This thread is getting really bizarre... Maybe if I go smoke some crack it might make more sense to me...
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Ok T maybe I read more into your post about the Cds than was there.
HappyCamper, "the offensive style of choosing to express yourself" which has surfaced on this thread in a number of posts was introduced by your band mate Choonz (but hey I'm not going to hold that against him forever, we all have our bad moods) in response to the initial round of comments about the music samples which he advertised on this forum, thereby inviting poeple to go and listen to them, and (one would have imagined inviting comments) by implication.
For the sake of context here are the relevant comments again:
1) "I've accepted your invitation to check out your music. I really disliked it, but good luck with your career."
This poster didn't like your music but *wished you all the best with your career*
2) "Power 1 Subtlety 0"
ok a bit blunter but not exactly a personal attack
3) "I like the music, though. I'd love to see you guys live"
Thumbs up (although like #1 this guy didn't like the band's name)
4) "Not my scene either ,a smile in your pic might help too"
Dislike, voiced as a matter of taste, hardly condemnatory or offensive
5) "Davey Garner is a remarkably good teacher of traditional music"
Compliment unrelated to actaul musical link (not a criticam I'm making, it is a valid testimonial to make
6) 'Well, if "raw intensity and industry" and "macho dueling" are what you're after, I'd say you succeeded'
ok that's a rather wry put down. But then all it really says is that in this posters opinuion you succeed meet the decription put forward in the quoted blurbs, a decription that doesn't appeal to #6
7) "As for the music, it's not my favorite style either but I think they are great in what they're trying to accomplish, and they're definitely very good musicians"
Compliments on musicianship, but not this poster's prefered listening style
8) "I liked it, so I'll be getting a copy at some point. well done lads"
unreserved thumbs up, CD sold
==========
choonz intervenes at this point with first Oscar Wilde paraphrase ignorant people & the limp and cuddle comment
================
9) "I kinda like your music. You just need to take criticism as it comes and avoid biting back. If you do... it lessons the value of what you are trying to achieve"
praise for the music, not so much for the attitude
=============
choonz: lets us know about the cabinet full of CCE medals
As an aside this made me smile when I first read it, and made me smile again just now: Is it rebels we are lads, shaking down the musical establishment? Sure and here are our official "really good" badges from CCE for playing slow airs to prove our musical credentials.
Come on. Choonz. You don't need CCE trinkets to prove you can play. Nobody does. Your playing is fine, you can hear that.
You can hear that and still not be absolutley sold on the style of music.
===========================
10) "Nice music. I enjoyed your tracks and videos very much. Good luck"
another thumbs up
11( (that'd be me) "Thought the playing was good, quite impressive really. Although I personally really don't care very much for that style of platying. Best of luck with it anyway.
I'm less impressed with your attitude towards criticism..."
So there. I'm impressed with your musicianship, but don't really go for the style you have chosen to play.
===========
I'll break off on the quoting there. As the yanks say "enough already.
I fail to see any provocation in the summary above to justify the rant that Choonz went on where the members of this forum were told what "kind of people" they must be.
Read over those comments I quoted and ask yourself if there is anything to honestly take offense at. There was a fair spread of unreserved compliments, praise with reservations, and comments that your style was not to an individuals taste.
Honestly if you see yourselves as "risk takers" waht more could you hope for. Wouldn't universal appreciation have implied a blander form of music than you apparently want to create? (of course what is edgy to one person, can be to another a blunting of what went before, you particularly see these alternative perceptions when it comes to fusion forms of music: is it taking the music out somehwre dangerous and new? or is it diluting the dirt out of the music?).
Once again. Well played. I'd enjoy hearing you live no doubt.
I wouldn't buy the cd, but then I very rarely buy or listen to cds.
Good luck with the music. But calm down with the aggressive attitude it doesn't do you any favours.
As for the acceptibility of commenting on the percieved merits or otherwise of your samples: this thread popped up on our discussion board like an advert for a film on the tele. After watching the advert, the folks in this forum commented on the product. Should we refrain from commenting on whether or not the latest Harry potter movuie looked good in the trailer until we've all made our own movies to show we can do better?
- Chris
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I need a thesaurus!
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Button Box
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Lads, come here, I've solved it!!
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22167
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by T
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Haha! This is great craic! And to think rambling pitchfork ,that all this was brought about by choonz not being able to take a few wry remarks about their music. And then go flying off the hook because of how people reacted to THEIR reaction. I agree pitchfork.
'I picked up on this as typical of your offensive style of choosing to express yourself.'
Did you pick up on that did you, happycamper? Oh okay. Yea i was kinda going for the same thing that choonz went for that started this whole rant. But thanks for replying cause we can easily see now that it seems to be an oath that the band has taken, ie: to be as argumentative as possible.
Anyway, people don;t 'always have a go at something different. Did you not see the praise you got? Not everyone is going to like it, big deal. After that little rant of yours in an attempt to paint yourself as a martyr. Yet still you can't take criticism. Yea sure some comments as pitchfork pointed out were to be taken with a pinch of salt, but nothing to get your knickers in a twist.
'Its the typical excuse to have a go at something a litle different - as people like you always do - as long as the target of your abuse isn't well known.'
Come one. Being well known has nothing to do with it! I have on this site (not for a while now mind you) shown my dislike for certain musicians' style, well known or not so much.
'Some frustrated Comhaltas musician who can barely play his instrument and never won anything, would be my best guess'
Haha! That's great! Coming from someone defending another who earlier, and on your myspace site it should be said, talks about the plethora of medals they've achieved. And no, I'm not a comhaltas musician as some others on the site will point out but nice try.
And how really can you mix up f-u-ckin leo rowsome and willie clancy you dingbat! Jesus, you bloody mentioned the connection in two different comments. Gimme a break.
And as a matter of fact I respect Martin Hayes for what he does. Its not my type of music, but still he has done the traditional thing way before did what he is doing now. His playing is just along the boundary in my opinion.
'its not about what or even how you play, is it? is it about who you know again?'
My heart bleeds for you. That is the world of a professional musician camper, not the 'actual' world of trad music. If you dont like that craic then dont spend time striving to become a professional trad musician.
And speaking about 'psychological abuse, it says an awful lot about you mental state to fly off the hook about someone asking you to smile in a few pictures. You cant seem to see that the criticism you're getting is not personal. Yes your music is a very personal thing, but if that is your livelihood than you have to accept the fact that you have to seperate emotionally somewhat, otherwise you;ll probably have a nervous breakdown or a bloody panic attack!
'i am a far harsher critic of my own music than anyone here. there are lots of aspects of my playing i don't think are great. (But, interestingly, you didn't find any of them'
Yea, i didnt really listen the whole way through any track. anyway, i dont listen to music to find mistakes, maybe you do but hey, why shoudl I care
'Or come to a session in Bristol some time, and try and pontificate in one of our sessions'
So thats what sessions in bristol are like? people sit around a table and try and big themselves up. hmmm, no thanks. i dont need to prove anything, i'm not as insecure about my music as you seem to be.
Can't wait for you next reply! I wonder if the people reading this thread can tell who takes this more seriously, eh?
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Ive seen these lads in sessions locally and they are fantastic musicians. Far better than i will achieve in my lifetime but i have to say i get totally bored with all the ultra heavy ornamentation which to my ears destroys a tune. Im not jealous boys of your undeniable talent but you appear to be trying to ram it down peoples throats and thats not the way forward. You are all old enough to take peoples negative critisism and do something positive with it even if all you do is disagree quietly between yourselves and then bin it. Although i cant join in with your very modern approach to old session favourites i still enjoy sitting back and listening.Chill
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Newty
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I quite liked what I heard of the choonze. But what surprises me is that no-one has mentioned how utterly unoriginal they are.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Where's Trucks Mulligan when you need him with the story about whipping out the anatomy and dropping it on the table at the pub? That's about what this is sounding like. "OK, drop trousers, who's got the biggest one? I'll fight all you! AARRGH!!!"
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Is there a requirement to be original Michael?
That's as opposed to having a personal style, which is always a good thing. But searching after "originality" as an end in itself strikes me as a pointless modern obsession which can result in quite a contrived artificial end product.
But then again, of course the context of your comment is that Choonz are emphasising the "risk-taking" nature of their music, so originality is implied there.
Cheers - chris
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
You're right of course, there is no requirement to be original. And maybe I'm wrong to make the assumption that Chunes are wanting to be. I appologise if they don't wish to be.
It would be funny though, after their rant about all those terrific trad musicians who "aren't" traditional
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I still like them though, very good players, entertaining, they've got balls, attack, attitude, intelligence too - they are thinking about what they are doing. And quite right that they should get angry when they gat slagged. All very good points. Good on them.
There's a very high probability that they'll be brilliant when they grow up.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
I think this thread was misplaced; it should have been in the recordings section. If you choose to put it in the snake pit be prepared for snakes.
I personally happen to admire musicians like Cormac Breatnach and admire what he's accomplished regardless of my own musical aspirations. I can admire and enjoy what he does even though I have no similar inclination myself; I'm having enough trouble just getting the pure trad stuff to sound right. I can see you fellas are headed off in a similar direction as Cormac Breatnach and others like him, and I think you'll have great success, my only advice is to avoid the snake pit next time you release a CD.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
And how really can you mix up f-u-ckin leo rowsome and willie clancy you dingbat! Jesus,
second reference to 'Dingbats' on this site in under a week....interesting.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by shanty
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Favorite definition (out of many) of the word 'dingbat'
(1) Balls of dung on buttocks of sheep or cattle
note to self....must use the word 'dingbat' more often....
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by shanty
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Zapf ... dingbat.... ?
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by ...
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Choonz and other up and coming pros - I don't think you guys
should be rolling around in the beer and sawdust on this site.
It's smarter to just post your announcements and stand back and
let the punters have their fun. You don't want to alienate the
(potentional) fans.
On the other hand, it think it's bad to try and tear down
young people who are trying to take this music forward. It's _their_
music. They'll be the Paddy Cannys and Tommy Peoples
of 2050, not the rest of us.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Hup
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Fiddleruari said "Basically just grow up", and how right he was.
I stood up for these guys earlier in this thread as they are good players not afraid to do something new whilst obviously very capable of playing in a more trad style where appropriate. Following their submission to the tunes section I regret that support. Their childishness and insecurity really lets them down. I won't put a link here to the tune but the asterisk in the title was an edit.
# Posted on August 4th 2009 by bogman
Re: Choonz' Debut CD Release! - - - 'Lads of Lash'
Hmm - well this was an amusing little thread. I initially wasn't going to comment but I am bored right now
I personally like the music and I don't mind admitting it. A very talented trio I believe. Like an earlier poster, I'm not crazy about the name but it's not my band so who cares what I think. I must say that I do think the (over)reaction to criticism was a little like shooting yourself in the foot. While I am not a very active poster to this site and also fairly new to the trad scene a lot of the 'regulars' here are very knowledgeable - including one I know personally who has commented here that is extremely talented and open minded. There are others here who seem quite adept at being somewhat closed minded to new ideas and very quick to voice that opinion - that is their right and also the point of a forum such as this. A gracious "thank you for your honest opinion" might have served you better in the long run on this site.
The one point I would like to make is over the dreaded song title issue - while I would not have named a tune that, I have no problem with the word. We as a species have become WAY TOO SENSITIVE over words. In the UK it is used among young males as the N word is used in the US by those who it supposedly offends (among themselves of course). Get over yourself if it bothers you. If you are so concerned that a child might encounter it then there are things much more offensive and dangerous these children could encounter on a regular basis. You'll let them watch countless acts of violence on prime time television but are afraid of a silly little word - come on. I'd be willing to bet in five or ten years they wouldn't dream of using a word like that in a song title. I can't see it being played at sessions tho'. Imagine calling out "Ok, the next tune is......". Any females there would bitc4 slap you !
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by standrewscross