itunes is good for having plenty of trad. I also like the way you can buy a single track.
But why oh why is the interface so utterly cumbersome and difficult to use? You can't drag and drop, copy and paste ..and adding and removing music files to the ipod is like trying to open a bag of crisps with one hand. As for....Synchronising....
You cant even slow the tracks down, something windows media player has been able to do since 1902.
You can slow stuff down by doing Command-R (to show it in the Finder) then open with QuickTime. Comand-K to bring up the adjustments window and then you can adjust playback speed.
Thanks Joe for the help on slowing tracks down - I couldnt find any info. Opening another program will have to do! (It is still a pity that itunes itself does not have a playback speed controller - why not??).
Silver spear - thanks but I was referring to the fact that ipods are not 'plug and play' - in other words I cant simply connect my ipod and drag files onto and off it without using the cumbersome itunes 'window'.
I had a cheap mp3 player that allowed me to do this - much like a usb drive - it was far more simple than the difficulties of adding and removing files using all that 'synchronising' rubbish.
You don't have to use the synchronizing rubbish -- I don't, as there is a lot of sh*te on my itunes that I don't want on the ipod. You open the itunes window, grab the track and drag it to the ipod icon on the left side of the itunes window. Easy.
It never ceases to amaze me that I can call something stupid (some "thing" mind, not some "one") and get barred. And yet I can directly be called Hitler and be told I'd be better off under a bus, with total impunity.
I like to use the 'slowdowner' as you call it to try to help me to learn by ear. At the moment I am tackling Tommy People's as played by Altan. As the Donegal style is fast and furious it makes it easier with the 'slow downer'.
I have never been to any workshop, lesson or music group where a tune being taught has not been slowed down for learners.
I don't see the difference in that and slowing down a tune at home with a computer program. Not stupid at all really.
I dont see how anyone can be expected to learn tune by ear at full pace without going through through a process of learning tunes at a slow pace first. I know that I learnt many tunes by ear, bar by bar from friends slowly broken down. after years of that I could/can pick up tunes by ear at full pace. Did any one start picking tune up by ear without going through this process at first?
Learning a tune by having the teacher play it section by section slowly must surely be the most oldest and most traditional way of learning music. When a teacher plays a section slowly it is still being played as recognisable live music, interacting with the learner, and the teacher can instantly home in on a difficult bit and break it down note-by-note with a discussion of bowing and fingering thrown in for good measure.
A slow-downer can never do this. You get a mechanical idiotic slowing down that immediately takes the life out of the music and destroys it - messing up natural reverberations and exaggerating slight variations in timing and intonation which would otherwise go unnoticed, for example.
That is why I am in agreement with llig on this. I think he was misinterpreted - he was getting at the slow-downing computer applications, not the live teacher or colleague musician who plays the music slowly for the learner's benefit.
I find it difficult to see slow-downers as being useful, other than for non-learning purposes such as examination of a music track in a studio, and in that case you'd be looking at a zoomed portion of a wave form on an audio editor.
iTunes have their head screwed on properly for this one.
OK, so you're in a situation where you don't have anyone to talk you through a tune slowly - but you do have the CD.
What you do is to listen to the tune "as played" with as much concentration as you can and for as many times as you can, listening for the detail. At first, you'll probably only get the broad outline of the tune, but the more you listen then the more detail you will pick up. Eventually you'll be able to lilt or hum the tune to yourself, and then you've got it. And then it's a matter of translating what is now in your head into fingering and bowing (or whatever corresponds on your instrument). This you'll be able to do at what ever speed matches your technique, just as if you had a live teacher in front of you. Getting up to the CD speed will then be a matter of improving your technique (that's another can of worms I've no intention of opening here!)
What I've described is basic ear training. It takes time but when you've got it it will be with you for life. It's a bit like learning a foreign language in a foreign environment. The more you listen the more your ear gets atuned and picks up the detail quickly. This is how experienced players can usually pick up a tune first time through in a session.
I disagree, as a youth I would record a piece on to a 4 trax which I could then slow down. It would go down an octave. did it sound like music? no. Could I pick up the tune? yes.
Of course the nuances of performance can not be picked up, but they cant be picked up anyway until the mind is trained to recognise what it is hearing. all the subtleties can be heard at normal pace, however the mind needs to be trained to understand what it is hearing. This can be achieved by slowing down the tune untill the minds ear/eye can assimilate what is happening. Especially fast complex tunes.
However even then I had great difficulty picking up Rhondo ala turk by ear using this method. how ever many times I listened .
It was only the dots that helped me pick up that tune. I was figuring it out from Dan Crarys guitar playing. Tough nut to crack that was.
I would say I'm reasonably good at playing by ear (the vast majority of what I play I've got from sessions) but the tunes that I really find attractive are those with interesting bits. By interesting, I mean sequences of notes and snippets that I've not heard or identified before.
Part of training to play by ear or by sight (not all, but a significant amount) is recognising and learning a certain vocabulary of sequences. As they are novel in this way, the tunes which I slow down to listen to are precisely the ones that do hit my weak spots and require slowing down.
The old lady at my local who has played for 50 years gave me a scathing look some years ago when I told her I learned a tune from a CD. The only way to learn was from another player, she told me and anything else was unacceptable. This is traditional music, after all. Really, she felt threatened by others bringing new, unfamiliar tunes to the session. New technology will always encounter naysayers. Don't like it, don't find it useful, don't use it. simple.
9 times out of 10 these days when you ask someone to show you a tune they played they'll tell you which CD it's on or say "It's on thesession.org"
Actually, make that 9.9 times out of 10
Yes Joe, I agree, by slowing down the tracks I can pick up particular details in ornamentation and the like.
I just see it as another way to learn.
I would disagree with many posts here.
I say there is nothing wrong with playing tunes slowly - I find it makes me a better player as I am less likely to cover up problems in my playing with speed. Make sense?
I find Amazing Slow Downer very useful; and Transcribe even more useful. I love them. I can slow down at 50% keeping the same pitch, understand the notes, and ...slowly...i can increase the speed up to 100%. I never learned a piece at full speed.
I've been playing guitar for 45 years now. I wonder what magician can listen to a new tune, and play immediately at the right speed.
Probably it's because I'm a stranger, not an Irish Traditional Musician, not a Celt, not ....what else?
I understand that being too conservative, too traditional can lead to a defensive pattern: NO! to whatever I'm not used to do.
Probably who thinks this way shouldn't use a computer at all.
Shouldn't use Internet, nor share her/his knowledge and opinions with "others"....(don't talk about "strangers".:!!!)
Defensive patterns have never led anyone to develop anything, just to keep their treasure despite what is happening "outside"...until some wall breaks down...every wall built to keep others off, has crashed down.
Probably listening by ear, being physycally in a session it's the best way to learn and to become a good ITM player.
I fear it's not the only one. Things are changing, the appreciation of this music by strangers cause their (mine) wish to learn it as they can. And probably even irish people living all over the world are changing and adjusting to a lifestyle different from their traditional one.
I don't see any bad in this.
It's just a matter of looking at reality and not just at our defensive wishes...
Just my opinion......
Experienced players have one big advantage... experience. You lazy hound for example are already an experienced player, what is easy for you will be completely unobtainable to another. Same with llig.
I suggest a test, find a piece of music that is completely alien to you. see how many times it takes you to pick it up by ear. Say a coltrane jazz piece. Or some Rai vocal stuff. Perhaps some highland bagpipe music. The ornaments will be impossible to figure out by ear I can assure you. Untill you are familiar with what they do and how they do it. I dont care how experienced you are at transcribing music, once you are faced with the unfamiliar it will seem a whole lot harder.
Has anyone suggested only ever listening to bits of tunes slowed down, or listening to them slowed down before listening to them at full speed ? Don't think so. And are some people suggesting that listening to something slowed down forever distorts how one hears at full speed ? If so prove it. If not what is there to get worked up about. I mean for ear training, not playing along with slowed down recordings.
Well said, David. I was talking to a fairly well known and well regarded musician who used to slow down records and cassetts when he began learning to play. Is doing it digitally any worse? Probably better, to be fair, since slowed down LPs and tapes sound really weird. It's not like people*only* then listen to the tune at the slowed down pace.
itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
itunes is good for having plenty of trad. I also like the way you can buy a single track.
But why oh why is the interface so utterly cumbersome and difficult to use? You can't drag and drop, copy and paste ..and adding and removing music files to the ipod is like trying to open a bag of crisps with one hand. As for....Synchronising....
You cant even slow the tracks down, something windows media player has been able to do since 1902.
Yours irritated,
R.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
You can slow stuff down by doing Command-R (to show it in the Finder) then open with QuickTime. Comand-K to bring up the adjustments window and then you can adjust playback speed.
If you have Windows, get a mac first.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by Joe Wass
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Erm.... you can drag and drop on iTunes. Just drag the track from the main screen and hold it over wherever you want to move it to and drop it in.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
aaaaaarrrgghhhh matey, are ye sure it's not pirated software?
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
try qtrax.com, it's free.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Thanks Joe for the help on slowing tracks down - I couldnt find any info. Opening another program will have to do! (It is still a pity that itunes itself does not have a playback speed controller - why not??).
Silver spear - thanks but I was referring to the fact that ipods are not 'plug and play' - in other words I cant simply connect my ipod and drag files onto and off it without using the cumbersome itunes 'window'.
I had a cheap mp3 player that allowed me to do this - much like a usb drive - it was far more simple than the difficulties of adding and removing files using all that 'synchronising' rubbish.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Mark, yes I am positive my itunes that is downloaded automatically to go with my genuine ipod to play my purchased tracks is not pirated.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
You don't have to use the synchronizing rubbish -- I don't, as there is a lot of sh*te on my itunes that I don't want on the ipod. You open the itunes window, grab the track and drag it to the ipod icon on the left side of the itunes window. Easy.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Silver Spear - nice one! I never thought of trying that instead and I now feel just a little bit foolish!
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
serves me right for reading the instructions
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Hi richrua - that was a joke!
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
i know dont worry!!
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
The reason itunes doesn't have a slowdowner is because it's a stupid thing to do.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by ...
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Yeah llig its almost Dotty!
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Donough
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
"The reason itunes doesn't have a slowdowner is because it's a stupid thing to do."
Look! Another "Technology is bad for traditional music" blast from llig reltih. Everything must be learned my way, and only my way.
!LIEH GEIS
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by awildman2384
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Mike Godwin? I thank you sir.
It never ceases to amaze me that I can call something stupid (some "thing" mind, not some "one") and get barred. And yet I can directly be called Hitler and be told I'd be better off under a bus, with total impunity.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by ...
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
I like to use the 'slowdowner' as you call it to try to help me to learn by ear. At the moment I am tackling Tommy People's as played by Altan. As the Donegal style is fast and furious it makes it easier with the 'slow downer'.
I have never been to any workshop, lesson or music group where a tune being taught has not been slowed down for learners.
I don't see the difference in that and slowing down a tune at home with a computer program. Not stupid at all really.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
I dont see how anyone can be expected to learn tune by ear at full pace without going through through a process of learning tunes at a slow pace first. I know that I learnt many tunes by ear, bar by bar from friends slowly broken down. after years of that I could/can pick up tunes by ear at full pace. Did any one start picking tune up by ear without going through this process at first?
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Learning a tune by having the teacher play it section by section slowly must surely be the most oldest and most traditional way of learning music. When a teacher plays a section slowly it is still being played as recognisable live music, interacting with the learner, and the teacher can instantly home in on a difficult bit and break it down note-by-note with a discussion of bowing and fingering thrown in for good measure.
A slow-downer can never do this. You get a mechanical idiotic slowing down that immediately takes the life out of the music and destroys it - messing up natural reverberations and exaggerating slight variations in timing and intonation which would otherwise go unnoticed, for example.
That is why I am in agreement with llig on this. I think he was misinterpreted - he was getting at the slow-downing computer applications, not the live teacher or colleague musician who plays the music slowly for the learner's benefit.
I find it difficult to see slow-downers as being useful, other than for non-learning purposes such as examination of a music track in a studio, and in that case you'd be looking at a zoomed portion of a wave form on an audio editor.
iTunes have their head screwed on properly for this one.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
OK, so you're in a situation where you don't have anyone to talk you through a tune slowly - but you do have the CD.
What you do is to listen to the tune "as played" with as much concentration as you can and for as many times as you can, listening for the detail. At first, you'll probably only get the broad outline of the tune, but the more you listen then the more detail you will pick up. Eventually you'll be able to lilt or hum the tune to yourself, and then you've got it. And then it's a matter of translating what is now in your head into fingering and bowing (or whatever corresponds on your instrument). This you'll be able to do at what ever speed matches your technique, just as if you had a live teacher in front of you. Getting up to the CD speed will then be a matter of improving your technique (that's another can of worms I've no intention of opening here!)
What I've described is basic ear training. It takes time but when you've got it it will be with you for life. It's a bit like learning a foreign language in a foreign environment. The more you listen the more your ear gets atuned and picks up the detail quickly. This is how experienced players can usually pick up a tune first time through in a session.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
I disagree, as a youth I would record a piece on to a 4 trax which I could then slow down. It would go down an octave. did it sound like music? no. Could I pick up the tune? yes.
Of course the nuances of performance can not be picked up, but they cant be picked up anyway until the mind is trained to recognise what it is hearing. all the subtleties can be heard at normal pace, however the mind needs to be trained to understand what it is hearing. This can be achieved by slowing down the tune untill the minds ear/eye can assimilate what is happening. Especially fast complex tunes.
However even then I had great difficulty picking up Rhondo ala turk by ear using this method. how ever many times I listened .
It was only the dots that helped me pick up that tune. I was figuring it out from Dan Crarys guitar playing. Tough nut to crack that was.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
I would say I'm reasonably good at playing by ear (the vast majority of what I play I've got from sessions) but the tunes that I really find attractive are those with interesting bits. By interesting, I mean sequences of notes and snippets that I've not heard or identified before.
Part of training to play by ear or by sight (not all, but a significant amount) is recognising and learning a certain vocabulary of sequences. As they are novel in this way, the tunes which I slow down to listen to are precisely the ones that do hit my weak spots and require slowing down.
A tautology, but so are many things.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Joe Wass
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
The old lady at my local who has played for 50 years gave me a scathing look some years ago when I told her I learned a tune from a CD. The only way to learn was from another player, she told me and anything else was unacceptable. This is traditional music, after all. Really, she felt threatened by others bringing new, unfamiliar tunes to the session. New technology will always encounter naysayers. Don't like it, don't find it useful, don't use it. simple.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by leoj
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
9 times out of 10 these days when you ask someone to show you a tune they played they'll tell you which CD it's on or say "It's on thesession.org"
Actually, make that 9.9 times out of 10
aural transmission ain't what it used to be
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Bren
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Yes Joe, I agree, by slowing down the tracks I can pick up particular details in ornamentation and the like.
I just see it as another way to learn.
I would disagree with many posts here.
I say there is nothing wrong with playing tunes slowly - I find it makes me a better player as I am less likely to cover up problems in my playing with speed. Make sense?
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by richrua
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
I find Amazing Slow Downer very useful; and Transcribe even more useful. I love them. I can slow down at 50% keeping the same pitch, understand the notes, and ...slowly...i can increase the speed up to 100%. I never learned a piece at full speed.
I've been playing guitar for 45 years now. I wonder what magician can listen to a new tune, and play immediately at the right speed.
Probably it's because I'm a stranger, not an Irish Traditional Musician, not a Celt, not ....what else?
I understand that being too conservative, too traditional can lead to a defensive pattern: NO! to whatever I'm not used to do.
Probably who thinks this way shouldn't use a computer at all.
Shouldn't use Internet, nor share her/his knowledge and opinions with "others"....(don't talk about "strangers".:!!!)
Defensive patterns have never led anyone to develop anything, just to keep their treasure despite what is happening "outside"...until some wall breaks down...every wall built to keep others off, has crashed down.
Probably listening by ear, being physycally in a session it's the best way to learn and to become a good ITM player.
I fear it's not the only one. Things are changing, the appreciation of this music by strangers cause their (mine) wish to learn it as they can. And probably even irish people living all over the world are changing and adjusting to a lifestyle different from their traditional one.
I don't see any bad in this.
It's just a matter of looking at reality and not just at our defensive wishes...
Just my opinion......
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Sergio Corriero
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Experienced players have one big advantage... experience. You lazy hound for example are already an experienced player, what is easy for you will be completely unobtainable to another. Same with llig.
I suggest a test, find a piece of music that is completely alien to you. see how many times it takes you to pick it up by ear. Say a coltrane jazz piece. Or some Rai vocal stuff. Perhaps some highland bagpipe music. The ornaments will be impossible to figure out by ear I can assure you. Untill you are familiar with what they do and how they do it. I dont care how experienced you are at transcribing music, once you are faced with the unfamiliar it will seem a whole lot harder.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Has anyone suggested only ever listening to bits of tunes slowed down, or listening to them slowed down before listening to them at full speed ? Don't think so. And are some people suggesting that listening to something slowed down forever distorts how one hears at full speed ? If so prove it. If not what is there to get worked up about. I mean for ear training, not playing along with slowed down recordings.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by David50
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
Well said, David. I was talking to a fairly well known and well regarded musician who used to slow down records and cassetts when he began learning to play. Is doing it digitally any worse? Probably better, to be fair, since slowed down LPs and tapes sound really weird. It's not like people*only* then listen to the tune at the slowed down pace.
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: itunes aaaaaarrrgghhhh
God it was a nightmare 20 yrs ago with slowing down cassettes, AArgh thank god I learnt to read music.
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil