I listened for the first time to the Jean Carignan CD http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2525
and was 'gobsmacked' at the pace of The Devil's Dream (aka De'il amang the tailors) (1st track on the CD).
Carignan plays through the A part (8 bars of 4/4) twice in 12 seconds. That's 8*4*2 (ie 64) crotchets! If my sums are right that equates to 320 bpm. Is this a record? I don't think I've heard anything faster.
I'm sure we've had this debate before, but isn't BPM usually calculated at 2 beats per bar (hence most reels coming out somewhere between 110 and 120 bpm)?
I've tried counting the recording in question and couldn't but I think using domnull's 12 seconds for two parts that should be 8*2*2 = 32 beats in 12 seconds = 160 bpm in the way we normally count things.
His rhythm goes a bit awry in places - obviously just showing off. All the other tracks on the album, while played at quite a snappy pace, are well within the norms for the genre, and have a solid dance rhythm and a good lift.
Bloody awful playing. Way way too fast ... for him that is.
But remember the old adage that there's no such thing as "too fast" as a specific measurement. Only "too fast" for a particular player.
Though I think I've heard faster. Showing off? Yes, of course, but much much better playing. There's a brother's duet on a Silly Wizard live double album (can't remember what it's called, and I can't check it, I only have the vinyl and I haven't had a record player for 50 years) that's faster.
Llig:
The duet can be found on either "Live In America" or possibly "Golden Golden", and definately on their live performance video from Atlanta from the 80's.
Quite a set, and wonderful musicianship, IMHO. I aways loved hearing them live when they came to the USA - never the same twice, and usually a five alarm fire.
They used to say when Johnny let rip, he played so fast only the dogs could hear him. I reckon I have a clip on video that might be faster - Finbar Furey & co playing the "Morning Dew" at a Leeds Folk Festival in the mid-80s. Totally horrible, I'll time it and get back to you.
The Silly Wizard set that was mentioned is quite awful to listen to as well. Though in a pure technical sense they make a better job of it than Carignan.
They wouldn't be recording at a slower speed and then speeding it up, would they?? Change the pitch but then with the fancy software now - no prob. to rectify that. Just a thought ..
That would work (sort of) on audio only, but the frequency of vibrato (if used) would be a dead giveaway, as would be a noticeable and presumably undisguisable change in ambience and reverberation. I don't think you could do it without people noticing for more than a speed change of about 6% (equivalent to half a tone in pitch), but even then the change in vibrato frequency on the fiddle starts to sound unnatural.
Jean Carrignan was playing The Devil's Dream after all, so I suppose he felt it was appropriate to take the speed right up to his limit. If the CD is the audio of what I've seen him doing on the YouTube video, then that was a live performance on stage, so a perfect performance wasn't to be expected. For my money, a live performance on the edge with a few blemishes is always to be preferred to the carefully honed "perfection" of the recording studio.
For anyone who watches the video that is indeed an object lesson in virtuoso bowing.
My error. It's a while since I've watched the Carignan videos and I got the names confused (if anyone knows me in sessions that's about par for the course!).
In the 60's John Mayall's band used to see how slow they could play some slow blooz dirge (Stormy Monday or some such). The effect was scheit An attempt at the fastest reel must swoop into this pointless, tasteless, death metal and schoolboy-like niche.
I fart in disbelief.
Anyway, the fastest recorded reel (in the sense of the shortest time it has ever taken to record a reel) would be as long as the reel was!
I remember hearing a great line about Frankie Gavin recording his tracks in two takes - "once to get the fingering, and then the second time he'd do the bowing".
I think this was a mocking reference to the accusation that his album tracks were recorded in D and then sped up to E flat.
As others have said - he can't actually play it at that speed, let alone well. I'm surprised anyone would release something with so many fudges and missed beats.
I don't know a lot about accordions, but that accordion looks and sounds like it's got a very ergonomic keyboard built for finger speed. Any comments from those who know, please?
I think Perlman is playing fairly close to the speed the composer specified, which is 1 crotchet (1/4 note) = 138. It's in 2/4, so "technically" it's a polka (!!). Most of it is in 1/8 and 1/16 notes.
Perlman shows what truly effortless mastery is - eyes closed most of the time so there is no distraction (compare the recent discussion here about whether fiddle players should look at their fingers while playing), and a quiet smile of pleasure in what he's playing. And if you watch the video with the sound turned off it looks so easy!
He seems to do so little yet the sound from his instrument is immense . A masters performance if I ever saw one.
Heifetz...
No, I've seen him play that before....got a very appreciative audience eh?
He really demonstrates how to get a thin whiny tone.
I think that when Heifetz in that televised workshop for his advanced students was doing that hilarious impression of a barely competent violinist in an audition playing a concerto movement well out of his range, he was not just doing it to entertain his students (they were all but ROFL) but to get them to think about the things that can go wrong when you're not 100% prepared and in a stressful situation. Things like a bouncing skating bow, bad intonation, missed notes, bad timing, poor finger-bow coordination, and a thin whiny tone, as Ionannas observed.
Sure and why not just pick it up by ear...
Thanks for that. I searched high and low for the score to that a few years ago, and when I got it I couldnt make head nor tail of it maybe this time.... ..
Fastest recorded reel?
Fastest recorded reel?
I listened for the first time to the Jean Carignan CD
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2525
and was 'gobsmacked' at the pace of The Devil's Dream (aka De'il amang the tailors) (1st track on the CD).
Carignan plays through the A part (8 bars of 4/4) twice in 12 seconds. That's 8*4*2 (ie 64) crotchets! If my sums are right that equates to 320 bpm. Is this a record? I don't think I've heard anything faster.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by domnull
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Was he on cocaine or what? Must be horrible.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
"Is this a record?"
Yes. Unless you had 'Ti Jean there with you in person.
"I don't think I've heard anything faster."
That figures - anything faster would be beyond the reaches of human hearing.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Must admit I didn't particularly like it - I was just amazed at the pace of the bloomin' thing!
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by domnull
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
320 quavers per minute. 160 beats.
Still too quick for me though!
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by skreech
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
You can hear a clip of the track here....
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1102904/a/French+Canadian,+Irish+&+Scottish+Fiddle+Music.htm
I didnt like it either!
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by bodatcha
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
I'm sure we've had this debate before, but isn't BPM usually calculated at 2 beats per bar (hence most reels coming out somewhere between 110 and 120 bpm)?
I've tried counting the recording in question and couldn't but I think using domnull's 12 seconds for two parts that should be 8*2*2 = 32 beats in 12 seconds = 160 bpm in the way we normally count things.
Too bloomin fast anyway!! 640 notes a minute!!
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by bodatcha
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
whoops...... cross posted with skreech there.....soz
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by bodatcha
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Awful, just showing off speed at the expense of musicality.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by cathycook
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
His rhythm goes a bit awry in places - obviously just showing off. All the other tracks on the album, while played at quite a snappy pace, are well within the norms for the genre, and have a solid dance rhythm and a good lift.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Bloody awful playing. Way way too fast ... for him that is.
But remember the old adage that there's no such thing as "too fast" as a specific measurement. Only "too fast" for a particular player.
Though I think I've heard faster. Showing off? Yes, of course, but much much better playing. There's a brother's duet on a Silly Wizard live double album (can't remember what it's called, and I can't check it, I only have the vinyl and I haven't had a record player for 50 years) that's faster.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Llig:
The duet can be found on either "Live In America" or possibly "Golden Golden", and definately on their live performance video from Atlanta from the 80's.
Quite a set, and wonderful musicianship, IMHO. I aways loved hearing them live when they came to the USA - never the same twice, and usually a five alarm fire.
We will not see their like again.
Here is one version of the duet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1gRDQEIiSM&feature=PlayList&p=22765F857C27CE9F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Piece
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
They used to say when Johnny let rip, he played so fast only the dogs could hear him. I reckon I have a clip on video that might be faster - Finbar Furey & co playing the "Morning Dew" at a Leeds Folk Festival in the mid-80s. Totally horrible, I'll time it and get back to you.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Kenny
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Tee he, that takes me back.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
The Silly Wizard set that was mentioned is quite awful to listen to as well. Though in a pure technical sense they make a better job of it than Carignan.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
They wouldn't be recording at a slower speed and then speeding it up, would they?? Change the pitch but then with the fancy software now - no prob. to rectify that. Just a thought ..
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
That would work (sort of) on audio only, but the frequency of vibrato (if used) would be a dead giveaway, as would be a noticeable and presumably undisguisable change in ambience and reverberation. I don't think you could do it without people noticing for more than a speed change of about 6% (equivalent to half a tone in pitch), but even then the change in vibrato frequency on the fiddle starts to sound unnatural.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Jean Carrignan was playing The Devil's Dream after all, so I suppose he felt it was appropriate to take the speed right up to his limit. If the CD is the audio of what I've seen him doing on the YouTube video, then that was a live performance on stage, so a perfect performance wasn't to be expected. For my money, a live performance on the edge with a few blemishes is always to be preferred to the carefully honed "perfection" of the recording studio.
For anyone who watches the video that is indeed an object lesson in virtuoso bowing.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
IMO that was more than 'a few blemishes'. It just isn't good music.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
I agree the Devil's Dream is a mess. For a fairer sense of Carignan's playing see "Hangman's Reel"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT3DctGzUhI
[Really it is the Reel du Pendu , i.e, the Hanged Man's Reel]
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by curamach
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Of course: Carignan is a giant.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
My error. It's a while since I've watched the Carignan videos and I got the names confused (if anyone knows me in sessions that's about par for the course!).
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Carignan's Hanged Man's reel is much better. Still very brisk but more controlled. Don't know if the YouTube version is the same as on the CD.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by domnull
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
In the 60's John Mayall's band used to see how slow they could play some slow blooz dirge (Stormy Monday or some such). The effect was scheit An attempt at the fastest reel must swoop into this pointless, tasteless, death metal and schoolboy-like niche.
I fart in disbelief.
Anyway, the fastest recorded reel (in the sense of the shortest time it has ever taken to record a reel) would be as long as the reel was!
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
I remember hearing a great line about Frankie Gavin recording his tracks in two takes - "once to get the fingering, and then the second time he'd do the bowing".
I think this was a mocking reference to the accusation that his album tracks were recorded in D and then sped up to E flat.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Fureys & Davey Arthur - Leeds Folk Festival 1984, I think. "The Morning Dew" - 3 parts, doubled = 20 seconds flat ! What's that in bpm ?
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Kenny
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
As others have said - he can't actually play it at that speed, let alone well. I'm surprised anyone would release something with so many fudges and missed beats.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by Linsey Doyle
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
IMHO, you may have hit the nail square on the head. Displays of true skill are valid as showmanship for some, but not my cup of tea.
I recall an old movie scene where a great burley strongman lifts a horse, with its rider, over his head, and shouts something to the effect of,
"Now, who else can do THAT?"
His best friend shouts back at him,
"Who but a fool would WANT to?"
Happy Trails.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by Piece
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Speed drives you mad you know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oEZ668kka8&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR8ABKpwm7w
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Now and then, though, it can work out just about right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkmFgQ9fM94
Seat belt light is on.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Piece
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oEZ668kka8&NR=1
I don't know a lot about accordions, but that accordion looks and sounds like it's got a very ergonomic keyboard built for finger speed. Any comments from those who know, please?
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
The Perlman video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR8ABKpwm7w (Bazzini - La Ronde des Lutins op 25).
I think Perlman is playing fairly close to the speed the composer specified, which is 1 crotchet (1/4 note) = 138. It's in 2/4, so "technically" it's a polka (!!). Most of it is in 1/8 and 1/16 notes.
Perlman shows what truly effortless mastery is - eyes closed most of the time so there is no distraction (compare the recent discussion here about whether fiddle players should look at their fingers while playing), and a quiet smile of pleasure in what he's playing. And if you watch the video with the sound turned off it looks so easy!
Now by way of contrast here is Jascha Heifetz playing as you've never seen him play before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5SluQyVqWQ&NR=1 Enjoy.
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
oh yes, technically a polka! terrific.
He seems to do so little yet the sound from his instrument is immense . A masters performance if I ever saw one.
Heifetz...
No, I've seen him play that before....got a very appreciative audience eh?
He really demonstrates how to get a thin whiny tone.
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
I think that when Heifetz in that televised workshop for his advanced students was doing that hilarious impression of a barely competent violinist in an audition playing a concerto movement well out of his range, he was not just doing it to entertain his students (they were all but ROFL) but to get them to think about the things that can go wrong when you're not 100% prepared and in a stressful situation. Things like a bouncing skating bow, bad intonation, missed notes, bad timing, poor finger-bow coordination, and a thin whiny tone, as Ionannas observed.
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
I did notice Perlmans bow wandering once or twice, which is kind of reassuring! Heiftze was all over the place, not often you could say that now!
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Sad though; were I to try and play that piece.... snif.... Im not even barely competent ... sigh....
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
If anyone is interested in seeing the dots of what Perlman was playing on that video they can download the pdf file (3.4MB) from
http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/4/48/IMSLP09931-Bazzini-la_ronde_des_lutins_op.25.pdf
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fastest recorded reel?
Sure and why not just pick it up by ear...
Thanks for that. I searched high and low for the score to that a few years ago, and when I got it I couldnt make head nor tail of it
# Posted on July 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil