I've been taking fiddle lessons in Irish trad for a short while here in the pacific northwest and my teacher encourages me to make most of the bow motion with the wrist as a way to conserve movement. But I am seeing on discussions that a lot of people stress moving the elbow and not the wrist. Is this a regional variation of the northwestern variety? It seems to work very well so far.
Do whatever gives you the most control over the rhythm with
the least effort. In my case I found that driving it mainly with
elbow flexion was the most effective. Some people use a lot
of wrist - some people use little. It's fun to watch the right arms
of violinists in an orchestra; if you look closely there's a fair amount
of variation in the wrist. Amongst trad player, Kevin Burke is
very 'wristy' looking while Tola Custy is the opposite.
Some teachers emphasize using as little bow as possible, and playing with mostly wrist motion--but Kevin Burke, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh, Martin Hayes, Randal Bays, Dale Russ, and other fine players use long bow strokes quite often. Depends on what sort of sound you're after, I suppose.
(That's the second time I've seen mention of a "Pacific Northwest fiddle style/variation." I don't know whether to be flattered or defensive about it. Didn't know there was one.)
Hmmm--might have just answered my own question. All those fiddlers--save one--live, or used to live, around here. I wonder if we can persuade Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh to move out here too, for a while?
Thanks Forrest - I like it. There's some similarity there to
Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh (and to McDarra O'Raghallaigh who's not
related to the other one). Don't jump down my throat, people - I
said "some" similarity.
As a kid with classical music, I was taught that the wrist should bend down when the bow is near the frog, and be bent up when it's near the tip. When the bow is in the middle, the wrist is as well. The wrist should bend correspondingly with the movement of the bow.
"it's [technique] not important"
hmm... try telling that to a golfer trying to get down into double figures, a snooker player trying to make a break of more than single figures, a competitive swimmer, a professional carpenter ...
It's not only competitive activities. It applies throughout one's life; you try to do your best at all sorts of things, which means learning how to do them efficiently (i.e. learning some sort of technique). In particular it applies if you have respect for music (any music) you're playing, and for anyone who happens to be listening; it means working on technique, and probably doing so for the rest of your life.
Technique is important so one doesn't hurt themselves. But, if something works for an individual, then, hey, who am I to say it's "wrong?" Different strokes for different folks (pun intended).
Again, not a matter of this OR that, it's all of the muscles, tendons, joints, moving in concert (gawd, there's another one), to produce the best tone YOU can produce.
Technique is not important? I've heard it all now. To say this shows great arrogance as well as contempt for music, musicians and musicianship. Disgraceful.
Technique is the 'how to' of doing, no technique = no can do. Technique becomes assimilated and internalised over time and repetition and can in a sense become ' no technique' an absence conscious 'technique' So at a certain level one can act in a transparent way, no conscious awareness of 'technique' and there for it is in a sense unimportant. But only after it has been attained.
Ie The technique of scratching your nose becomes unimportant once the skill is attained. However were that ability somehow taken away then it would attain an immense importance , because the task cannot be achieved without that technique, which was learnt laboriously at some previous stage.
IMO the short cut to good fiddling is the developement of good technique.
Accurate intonation, phrasing and the immense importance of accurate timing. Together with the tunes played and personal style in which it is played, ie; the choice in the way these factors and ornaments etc above are combined .
Thats it, the factors to be considered in attaining skill on the instrument in this genre.
In a way technique is the ONLY thing, the 'how to' of expressing our selves through the medium of trad on the particular instrument. . Without technique there is nothing.
Do you think I'm saying that there is only one technique? Everyone is different, but everyone must practice technique, wherever it comes from. Please don't tell me that Liz Carrol doesn't think that her technique is important.
How did you practice scratching your nose? Did you break down into diferent muscle movements and analise the angle of you finger? Of course you didn't. You just went on and did it. Same with music, You just get on and do it. The best way to practice how to play tunes is to play tunes
>> The best way to practice how to play tunes is to play tunes<<
I disagree IMO the best way to learn to play the fiddle is a combination of technical exercises and playing tunes .
Once technical skill is developed , the playing of tunes becomes a lot easier. IMO things like scales arpeggios, metronome etc are short cuts to the developement of technical skill which can then be applied to any genre.
Of course there are genre specific technical issues to be mastered such as ornaments , correct rhythms for the specific types of tune. These of course are essential issues to be dealt with, which Im sure you agree, where we disagree is the method used to attain these skills.
We've been here millions of times. It's bloody pointless. What's the point in playing scales, they are just crap tunes etc etc etc. Is there a better way to practice the rhythm of a reel than merely to play reels? Of course not. etc etc etc
Yeah, so what, fiddling is more complicated than scratching your nose. Might take you a little longer to get it right, that's all. There's no intrinsic difference.
For sure, and, a beginner can work on their technique while playing tunes, as opposed to working on it while playing scales or exercises. Be a lot more fun, too. Wish I had done that as a kid. If I had a nickel for every goofy exercise I had to do back then...
Exactly. To take one of the fundamental bits of fiddle technique (the one mentioned in the second post here), you're not going to get a decent tone if the bow isn't moving parallel to the bridge. This is by no means an easy technique to achieve and needs a high degree of control of right arm, wrist and fingers. It may be relatively easy to do when playing short strokes in the middle of the bow, but problems arise towards either end of the bow when it will tend, unless you're very careful, to veer sideways towards either the bridge or the fingerboard; the result in either case is a loss of tonal quality and volume. Practicing in front of a mirror isn't always quite enough; at some stage you may need a knowledgeable player - not necessarily a formal teacher but someone who likewise knows how it's done - to observe you and to show you in detail the subtle movements of wrist and arm needed to get the result.
llig, a week or so ago you mentioned, if I remember rightly, new people coming to your session. In essence, as I understand, the no-hopers, the ones with little or no technique and no evident desire to learn, weren't particularly welcome, whereas those who were prepared to listen and learn - i.e. learn the techniques of playing the instrument as well as learning the tunes - were welcome. This seems to contradict your assertion that technique is not important. Incidentally, most established sessions I've been to have a similar philosophy (which is one reason why they're established, I suppose).
I'm with Ionannas on this; practicing playing tunes by playing tunes is pointless without technique. It just ends up as a mess and the best the player can hope for is a series of approximate notes in approximately the right order - and that's it.
I spent years 'playing tunes' as a fiddler, did I improve? not a lot. It was only when I applied myself to surmounting individual specific tricky issues that I really started to get anywhere. Had I applied myself to theses issues such as intonation and bowing mainly, at an earlier stage I would have improved at a significantly faster rate.
Try freezing everything with the middle of the bow on the strings. Now chance playing a jig with all single bows, but using, in turn, only one of your elbow, wrist and fingers. Make it sound the way you want it in each of the three cases, and see how it feels.
When I first tried it, I couldn't get any bit of a tone at all with just my fingers. Brutal.
Most of music has to do with the brain and the ears (only hippies believe in the soul), but some of it is like playing sport - fine motor control, and coordination of different muscles, speed and stamina.
In my opinion, there's no harm in playing around with the physical aspects, or training the muscles, as long as its for a musical purpose.
Getting back to the elbow thing, I was unable to keep steady
rhythm on the @#$$% thing until I gave priority to the elbow
and let the other parts react to it or supplement that primary movement.
I think I agree with the "do what works for you"... but DO something. Many of the best fiddlers I've seen/heard do not hold the bow, etc. "correctly", but they are phenomenal. Technique is hardwired from brain to musculature. But like working out in a gym: if you don't train your muscles, and go long periods of time without honing them, it'll hurt like hell down the road when you jump back on the bandwagon.
I teach that movement comes from the wrist, and that the forarm and upper arm hold the bow in place, where the triceps and shoulder muscles do the lifting. The wrist must be flexible and most of the small movements (jigs and reels) come from the wrist with hardly any arm movements (except to cross strings). The fingers are for volume/accents.
The basic problem with most fiddle or violin playing is that players try to play with one or another part (bone, joint, muscle) to the exclusion of others. Such disattached thinking and doing leads to hurting yourself and the music. The wrist bone is connected to the arm bone, the arm bone is connected to the elbow bone, etc. This is true of Both arms, and the whole body.
A lady once said to me: You play with your whole body!!
I replied that I didn't leave any of it home.
For specific results, one or another part might be emphasized, but the whole makes it sound whole -- better timing, tone, emphasis, fun.
from the wrist or the elbow?
from the wrist or the elbow?
I've been taking fiddle lessons in Irish trad for a short while here in the pacific northwest and my teacher encourages me to make most of the bow motion with the wrist as a way to conserve movement. But I am seeing on discussions that a lot of people stress moving the elbow and not the wrist. Is this a regional variation of the northwestern variety? It seems to work very well so far.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by underthetoaster
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
It's a combination of wrist and elbow. The wrist enables the bow to gllde straight (parallel to bridge, perpendicular to strings) across the strings.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by wyogal
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
and, may I add, all of the joints in the hand should remain relaxed, flexing naturally when drawing the bow straight
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by wyogal
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Do whatever gives you the most control over the rhythm with
the least effort. In my case I found that driving it mainly with
elbow flexion was the most effective. Some people use a lot
of wrist - some people use little. It's fun to watch the right arms
of violinists in an orchestra; if you look closely there's a fair amount
of variation in the wrist. Amongst trad player, Kevin Burke is
very 'wristy' looking while Tola Custy is the opposite.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
I don't disagree with wyogal, though - all the parts work together
with nothing being stiff or locked into position.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
I apologize for not reading your profile first, toaster.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Some teachers emphasize using as little bow as possible, and playing with mostly wrist motion--but Kevin Burke, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh, Martin Hayes, Randal Bays, Dale Russ, and other fine players use long bow strokes quite often. Depends on what sort of sound you're after, I suppose.
(That's the second time I've seen mention of a "Pacific Northwest fiddle style/variation." I don't know whether to be flattered or defensive about it. Didn't know there was one.)
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Hmmm--might have just answered my own question. All those fiddlers--save one--live, or used to live, around here. I wonder if we can persuade Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh to move out here too, for a while?
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Aside from using long bow strokes I don't think they have
much in common stylistically, although I'm not familiar with
Dale Russ.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Whew. Not guilty, then, of having a "PNW abberation."
Here's a sample of Dale's playing:
http://www.aniar.net/ashplnt.mp3
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Thanks Forrest - I like it. There's some similarity there to
Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh (and to McDarra O'Raghallaigh who's not
related to the other one). Don't jump down my throat, people - I
said "some" similarity.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Just wanted to share, that's all, since you hadn't heard of him. A lot of us think Dale deserves more recognition.
Me, I'd settle for any amount of similarity, to any of them, at all!
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
fingers, thumb, hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder. You should be using them all.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Thanks Llig - I don't think you've ever commented on
technique before except to say that it doesn't exist
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Of course it exists. It's just that it's not important
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
As a kid with classical music, I was taught that the wrist should bend down when the bow is near the frog, and be bent up when it's near the tip. When the bow is in the middle, the wrist is as well. The wrist should bend correspondingly with the movement of the bow.
Works just fine for me.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
"it's [technique] not important"
hmm... try telling that to a golfer trying to get down into double figures, a snooker player trying to make a break of more than single figures, a competitive swimmer, a professional carpenter ...
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Well duh ... of course technique's important to the competative.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
It's not only competitive activities. It applies throughout one's life; you try to do your best at all sorts of things, which means learning how to do them efficiently (i.e. learning some sort of technique). In particular it applies if you have respect for music (any music) you're playing, and for anyone who happens to be listening; it means working on technique, and probably doing so for the rest of your life.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Technique is important so one doesn't hurt themselves. But, if something works for an individual, then, hey, who am I to say it's "wrong?" Different strokes for different folks (pun intended).
Again, not a matter of this OR that, it's all of the muscles, tendons, joints, moving in concert (gawd, there's another one), to produce the best tone YOU can produce.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by wyogal
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Technique is not important? I've heard it all now. To say this shows great arrogance as well as contempt for music, musicians and musicianship. Disgraceful.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by McDermott
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Just look at Liz Carrol's violin "technique" and go tell her she's doing it all "wrong".
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Technique is the 'how to' of doing, no technique = no can do. Technique becomes assimilated and internalised over time and repetition and can in a sense become ' no technique' an absence conscious 'technique' So at a certain level one can act in a transparent way, no conscious awareness of 'technique' and there for it is in a sense unimportant. But only after it has been attained.
Ie The technique of scratching your nose becomes unimportant once the skill is attained. However were that ability somehow taken away then it would attain an immense importance , because the task cannot be achieved without that technique, which was learnt laboriously at some previous stage.
IMO the short cut to good fiddling is the developement of good technique.
Accurate intonation, phrasing and the immense importance of accurate timing. Together with the tunes played and personal style in which it is played, ie; the choice in the way these factors and ornaments etc above are combined .
Thats it, the factors to be considered in attaining skill on the instrument in this genre.
In a way technique is the ONLY thing, the 'how to' of expressing our selves through the medium of trad on the particular instrument. . Without technique there is nothing.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Do you think I'm saying that there is only one technique? Everyone is different, but everyone must practice technique, wherever it comes from. Please don't tell me that Liz Carrol doesn't think that her technique is important.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by McDermott
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
How did you practice scratching your nose? Did you break down into diferent muscle movements and analise the angle of you finger? Of course you didn't. You just went on and did it. Same with music, You just get on and do it. The best way to practice how to play tunes is to play tunes
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Fiddling and playing trad is more complicated than scratching your nose, by a long way!
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
>> The best way to practice how to play tunes is to play tunes<<
I disagree IMO the best way to learn to play the fiddle is a combination of technical exercises and playing tunes .
Once technical skill is developed , the playing of tunes becomes a lot easier. IMO things like scales arpeggios, metronome etc are short cuts to the developement of technical skill which can then be applied to any genre.
Of course there are genre specific technical issues to be mastered such as ornaments , correct rhythms for the specific types of tune. These of course are essential issues to be dealt with, which Im sure you agree, where we disagree is the method used to attain these skills.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
We've been here millions of times. It's bloody pointless. What's the point in playing scales, they are just crap tunes etc etc etc. Is there a better way to practice the rhythm of a reel than merely to play reels? Of course not. etc etc etc
Yeah, so what, fiddling is more complicated than scratching your nose. Might take you a little longer to get it right, that's all. There's no intrinsic difference.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
For sure, and, a beginner can work on their technique while playing tunes, as opposed to working on it while playing scales or exercises. Be a lot more fun, too. Wish I had done that as a kid. If I had a nickel for every goofy exercise I had to do back then...
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Exactly. To take one of the fundamental bits of fiddle technique (the one mentioned in the second post here), you're not going to get a decent tone if the bow isn't moving parallel to the bridge. This is by no means an easy technique to achieve and needs a high degree of control of right arm, wrist and fingers. It may be relatively easy to do when playing short strokes in the middle of the bow, but problems arise towards either end of the bow when it will tend, unless you're very careful, to veer sideways towards either the bridge or the fingerboard; the result in either case is a loss of tonal quality and volume. Practicing in front of a mirror isn't always quite enough; at some stage you may need a knowledgeable player - not necessarily a formal teacher but someone who likewise knows how it's done - to observe you and to show you in detail the subtle movements of wrist and arm needed to get the result.
llig, a week or so ago you mentioned, if I remember rightly, new people coming to your session. In essence, as I understand, the no-hopers, the ones with little or no technique and no evident desire to learn, weren't particularly welcome, whereas those who were prepared to listen and learn - i.e. learn the techniques of playing the instrument as well as learning the tunes - were welcome. This seems to contradict your assertion that technique is not important. Incidentally, most established sessions I've been to have a similar philosophy (which is one reason why they're established, I suppose).
I'm with Ionannas on this; practicing playing tunes by playing tunes is pointless without technique. It just ends up as a mess and the best the player can hope for is a series of approximate notes in approximately the right order - and that's it.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
btw, my post followed on from Ionannas's last post. I hadn't seen the two following ones when I posted.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
I spent years 'playing tunes' as a fiddler, did I improve? not a lot. It was only when I applied myself to surmounting individual specific tricky issues that I really started to get anywhere. Had I applied myself to theses issues such as intonation and bowing mainly, at an earlier stage I would have improved at a significantly faster rate.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Try freezing everything with the middle of the bow on the strings. Now chance playing a jig with all single bows, but using, in turn, only one of your elbow, wrist and fingers. Make it sound the way you want it in each of the three cases, and see how it feels.
When I first tried it, I couldn't get any bit of a tone at all with just my fingers. Brutal.
Most of music has to do with the brain and the ears (only hippies believe in the soul), but some of it is like playing sport - fine motor control, and coordination of different muscles, speed and stamina.
In my opinion, there's no harm in playing around with the physical aspects, or training the muscles, as long as its for a musical purpose.
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by corkonian
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Lazyhound, the "no hopers" I refer to often have very good technique. They just can play
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
typo, can't play
# Posted on July 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Getting back to the elbow thing, I was unable to keep steady
rhythm on the @#$$% thing until I gave priority to the elbow
and let the other parts react to it or supplement that primary movement.
# Posted on July 15th 2009 by Hup
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
I think I agree with the "do what works for you"... but DO something. Many of the best fiddlers I've seen/heard do not hold the bow, etc. "correctly", but they are phenomenal. Technique is hardwired from brain to musculature. But like working out in a gym: if you don't train your muscles, and go long periods of time without honing them, it'll hurt like hell down the road when you jump back on the bandwagon.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
I teach that movement comes from the wrist, and that the forarm and upper arm hold the bow in place, where the triceps and shoulder muscles do the lifting. The wrist must be flexible and most of the small movements (jigs and reels) come from the wrist with hardly any arm movements (except to cross strings). The fingers are for volume/accents.
# Posted on July 16th 2009 by celticagent
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Wow thanks guys. I think that clears it up somewhat ... or adds something to the pile anyway.
# Posted on July 18th 2009 by underthetoaster
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
Hup, I have to ask...how long have you played fiddle?
Rhythm and timing don't come from the elbow, especially when playing jigs and reels at dance pace.
Or maybe you mean something other than what you've actually posted....
# Posted on July 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
(Never mind. Just read Hup's profile.)
# Posted on July 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: from the wrist or the elbow?
The basic problem with most fiddle or violin playing is that players try to play with one or another part (bone, joint, muscle) to the exclusion of others. Such disattached thinking and doing leads to hurting yourself and the music. The wrist bone is connected to the arm bone, the arm bone is connected to the elbow bone, etc. This is true of Both arms, and the whole body.
A lady once said to me: You play with your whole body!!
I replied that I didn't leave any of it home.
For specific results, one or another part might be emphasized, but the whole makes it sound whole -- better timing, tone, emphasis, fun.
Best wishes,
vlnplyr
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by vlnplyr