Is it certain that Si Beag Si Mor is an O'Carolan tune or is there an element of doubt? I checked an old discussion on this tune, and I'm under the impression that there isn't any proof that it is definitely his.
I refer you to the 2-volume biography of Carolan by Donal O'Sullivan, "Carolan: The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper", Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1958; where it says;
"...it was Squire Reynolds......suggesting as a subject for composition a battle between the fairy host of two neighbouring hills. This resulted in the graceful Song of 'Sheebeg and Sheemore'...". ( p39, Vol I ).
Please note the spelling, which I believe is as written on the local maps, at least at the time of the biography. However, in the notes on the tunes, Vol II, p 123 - 124, the names are itallicised in the Gaelic as Sigh beg and Sigh mor ( with an acute accent on the o which I don't know how to do on this keyboard ).
I would think that's as close an authentication as one might wish.
On my most recent trip to Ireland I managed a visit to the beautiful memorial garden in O'Carolan's honor in the town of Keadue, Co. Roscommon and have a photo of a transcription set in stone of the above air and it's spelt thus: Sídh Beag – Sídh Mór.
A most worthy monument to this great man, and a "must visit" for any lover of Irish music and its history.
Surely it'd be a fair bet that Carolan 'borrowed' heavily from the music of the day - adapted and modified etc. He is credited with many airs but maybe this is more to do with the fact that he moved in the sort of social circles where there was an impetus to notate and write down the melodies for publication?
I'm no expert, but I think the spelling Tony has there is correct - Sidh, sometimes spelled Sidhe. I think the meaning in Irish refers both, or alternately to the otherworld, the 'daoine maith', "the gentry", or in English I suppose - "the fairy", more precisely "faery" probably, and also to the hills in which they are supposed to dwell.
So the battle between the 'two fairies' has that connotation of the neighbouring hills.
I think the word also has a further meaning something like a sudden breeze (presumably very conspicuous on a still day for example).
There is a brilliant sidhe near Lisdoonvarna called Lisanteeaun (Lios an tsiodhan), and another very ominous looking one down near the coast road from Doolin to Fanore.
Well worth a visit.
Lissateeaun (fort of the fairy hill), which lies 1½ miles to the North-East, near the old castle site.
Lisdoonvarna takes its name from "Lios Duin Bhearna" the lios or enclosure of the fort in the gap. It is thought to refer to the green earthen fort of Lissateeaun (fort of the fairy hill), which lies 1½ miles to the North-East, near the old castle site.
Lissateeaun, Lis an tsidheán, the fairy fort, lies in a townland called Gowlaun, from the ‘fork’ (Gabhal) of the stream. It is a mote-like mound, shaped out of the natural bluff, but raised and rounded so as to form a high flat-topped platform sufficiently imposing as seen from the road bridge to the east. A shallow fosse runs round it on the side of the plateau in a semicircle. There are no other mounds or hut sites, nor is it easy to fix its actual height, as it runs into the natural slopes. The summit lies about 400 feet above the sea.
Its resemblance to a burial mound may have helped its reputation as a sidh, but it very probably was, if not in origin, at least in use, a true lis or residential fort, as its name implies. Sidheán in Co. Clare living usage, by the way, implies rather a passing gust or whirl of wind in which the fairies travel. It is a prophylactic usage to bow or take off your hat as the gust reaches you.[6] The fort is reputed to give its name to the Castle of Lisdoonvarna, ‘the fortified fort of the gap.’ The gap is the river gully, and the levelled ring wall at the head of the slope to the north is Caherbarna.
I have already noted [7] a warning in 1905 by two natives at Croaghateeaun, north-west of Ballinalacken Castle, to cross ourselves as a protection ‘against the Dananns,’ and not far away to the east, near Lisdoonvarna Castle, is the entrenched natural green hillock of Lissateeaun (Lios an t siodhain), the ‘fairy fort,’ which was in 1839 a recognised palace of the Dé Danann.
If you go to the South Sligo Summer School based near Tobercurry - you can spend an afternoon visiting Knocknashee or Cnoc na Sidhe - the hill of the fairies. One of the great European Hillforts with numerous archaelogical remains on the summit plateau which is encircled by a great stone wall. There's even a wee park nearby - Gillighan's World - dedicated to the world of the fairies!
Ah yes, thesession.org - a great source of knowledge...
Wounded Huzzar, you may be right about a general tendency for musicians to crib a bit here and there, but the individual character and style of the tunes passed down as Carolan's suggest that they were indeed the product of of an innovative and individual musical talent.
Certain tunes stick out as being different and are probably wrongly accredited, such as Blind Mary. Others have something distinctive about them that makes you think it a planxty before anyone says who wrote it., O'Carolan may be copied, but I don't think he was much of a copier.
We climbed to the top of Sheebeg in early December (it's a mile or so SW of Keshcarrigan in Co. Leitrim). It's an atmospheric spot with a splendid view around the environs and the site of a Megalithic tomb. Mind you, it's also usually home to an inquisitive herd of bullocks. There are pictures (not mine) here - http://www.megalithomania.com/show/site/1280.
If the tune is partly founded on an older one, can somebody please post that, so we may compare them ?
I find Carolan's work is so firmly stuck in my head that I can't envisage this prior tune, if it be true.
If it was written by Carolan I can see why it might gain another name involving a cuckoo. Also why someone hearing such a clear cuckoo motif might suggest an earlier tune/song about a cuckoo.
The Bonny Cuckoo is listed in the index of Bunting's "Ancient Music of Ireland arranged for the Pianoforte'" on Google books.
Introduction by DOUGLAS HYDE, LL.D., D. Litt., M.R.I.A. (An Craoibhin Aoibhinn), President of the Gaelic League; author of A Literary History of Ireland, &c.
This is taken from W.Y. Evans Wentz's The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries.]
1911
“My own experience is that beliefs in the Sidhe (pronounced Shee) folk, and in other denizens of the invisible world is, in many places, rapidly dying. In reading folk-lore collections like those of Mr. Wentz and others, one is naturally inclined to exaggerate the extent and depth of these traditions. They certainly still exist, and can be found if you go to search for them; but they often exist almost as it were by sufferance, only in spots, and are ceasing to be any longer a power. Near my home in a western county (County Roscommon) rises gently a slope, which, owing to the flatness of the surrounding regions, almost becomes a hill, and is a conspicuous object for many miles upon every side. The old people called it in Irish Mullach na Sidhe. This name is now practically lost, and it is called Fairymount.
Of all the beings in the Irish mythological world the Sidhe are, however, apparently the oldest and the most distinctive. Beside them in literature and general renown all other beings sink into insignificance. A belief in them formerly dominated the whole of Irish life. The Sidhe or Tuatha De Danann were a people like ourselves who inhabited the hills - not as a rule the highest and most salient eminences, but I think more usually the pleasant undulating slopes or gentle hill-sides - and who lived there a life of their own, marrying or giving in marriage, banqueting or making war, and leading there just as real a life as is our own. All Irish literature, particularly perhaps the ‘Colloquy of the Ancients’ (Agallamh na Sen—rach) abounds with reference to them.”
Link to the whole book, if you’re interested. All of this sort of folklore would have been very well known to Carolan of course.
Is that not the point? The folk music of the days when Carolan lived (around 1700) was generally not collected or notated - whatever was played was just played. General levels of literacy and 'education' were low. So people of the wealthier classes who had the capacity to collect and write music did so here & there but one must always presume through the prism of their own formal musical experience and education. So I think they took the general folk airs, added lots of embellishments and made fancy arrangements etc. and published these in various collections.
Carolan was different it seems, insofar as he was rooted in the folk music but was also patronised by wealthy landowners. So perhaps he moved in between. But presumably he also took melodies of the day and put his own stamp, his arrangement on them. And because he was who he was, these tended to be collected and attributed to him.
I don't see anything wrong with that - there's nothing wrong with copying and interpreting but surely that's where the phrase 'attributed to O'Carolan' comes from. i.e. in the abscence of other records, this seems to be a Carolan piece.
Molly Halpin is one of those, if I recall correctly i.e. sometimes attributed to Carolan but more than likely, music of the day.
"His first patron was George Reynolds of County Leitrim who suggested that Carolan - as he was known to himself and his friends - try his hand at composition. With this encouragement, Carolan composed 'Si Bheag, Si Mhor,' which means ' Big Hill, Little Hill,' and refers to a site in Co. Meath where, according to folklore, two battling giants were turned by a wizard into two hills. To this day, the tune is still closely associated with Carolan, the composer. Thereafter,
Carolan composed tunes for most of his patrons, usually putting them together on his journeys…
I"n Carolan's time, there were three musical traditions in Ireland - art music, folk music, and the harper tradition. The harper tradition served as a link between art and folk music and was the main conduit for the oral tradition. Carolan created a unique style by combining these art forms, and then adding elements inspired by Italian music which was then fashionable in Ireland. He was a great admirer of Vivaldi and Corelli, whose modern music he would have heard in the homes of his noble Irish patrons, and this admiration is reflected in the melodic construction and forms of many of his pieces…
We can hear Carolan reaching toward the Italian style, but without leaving behind the folk roots of the Irish tradition.'…
Carolan bridges the gap between continental art music on the one hand, and the Gaelic harp and folk music on the other. At his best he wrote music that is distinctively Irish, yet has an international flavor as well.”
Interesting to read the variations between Donal O'Sullivan's account and the one just above.
I agree also with the comment about the three strands of music. It seems to me that surely some of the reasons for the harp music being so distinct, apart from the harp tradition, is the mechanical differences between the harp and other instruments , in the same way that we know a tune is a good fiddle tune, or a pipe tune, for instance, because it sits easier on one instrument or the other because of the mechanical differences in how you have to play it ?
I think most people at the time, especially those for whom Carolan generally played, would have been very conversant with the old tunes and airs of the time, and would have easily detected if Carolan would have based Si Beag Si Mor on an earlier tune called The Cuckoo, for example.
As well, the sentiment of the tune "matches" that of what folklore regarding the Sidhe is (or was) all about.
I think it's interesting too, how English-language commentators, then as now apparently, want to interpret the meaning of Sidhe, as "hill", whereas in Irish, there is that dual meaning with equal importance on both. An interesting, and possibly a very profound, cultural difference.
I seem to remember that Molly Halpin/halfpenny etc. was attributed to the blind harper Rory Dall, but it has since been discovered that it was written by a different blind harper with the same name.
I thought everyone knew that.
I think in the Rory Dall case it's actually true, only I'm not certain I got the right tune.
I read somewhere, I think the O'Sullivan book, that Molly Halpin was the tune that Carolan most wished he'd written. Try playing it slowly, it works really well.
Spot on David. Hold out you're hand. Written to placate some posh woman that gave him a lift and mistook him for rif-raf rather than a master musician. It's a great tune with loads of attitude.
The reason that I asked this question was, my partner and I gave an informal concert at a yoga retreat during the weekend. We played this tune, but not being certain of the history, I was hesitant to provide any information on the composer. Thank you, to everyone who has contributed. The links were especially helpful and interesting. In 1976, a friend and I visited Ireland, seeking his (Nugent) family roots. We spent some time driving around and staying several days in Carrick on Shannon. At that time, I wasn't a fiddler or harpist. When I return, I will definitely have an O'Carolan focus for my next visit.
I love listening to Carolan music, never get tired of it.
He lets us hear what he could not see. That much we share.
It all comes down to imagination, I think, and that does not change much over the centuries, except perhaps diminish to various degrees.
Si Beag Si Mor is his finest example, I think, and maybe why it is probably the most popular of his pieces.
The spelling for Sídh Beag – Sídh Mór at O'Carolan's grave may not be 100% reliable as the grave stone shows him performing with a concert harp, which was not even invented during his time.
Attributed to O'Carolan
Attributed to O'Carolan
Is it certain that Si Beag Si Mor is an O'Carolan tune or is there an element of doubt? I checked an old discussion on this tune, and I'm under the impression that there isn't any proof that it is definitely his.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Leendah
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I refer you to the 2-volume biography of Carolan by Donal O'Sullivan, "Carolan: The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper", Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1958; where it says;
"...it was Squire Reynolds......suggesting as a subject for composition a battle between the fairy host of two neighbouring hills. This resulted in the graceful Song of 'Sheebeg and Sheemore'...". ( p39, Vol I ).
Please note the spelling, which I believe is as written on the local maps, at least at the time of the biography. However, in the notes on the tunes, Vol II, p 123 - 124, the names are itallicised in the Gaelic as Sigh beg and Sigh mor ( with an acute accent on the o which I don't know how to do on this keyboard ).
I would think that's as close an authentication as one might wish.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
If only all historians did as much research as quoting from a biography written in 1948.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by David50
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
On my most recent trip to Ireland I managed a visit to the beautiful memorial garden in O'Carolan's honor in the town of Keadue, Co. Roscommon and have a photo of a transcription set in stone of the above air and it's spelt thus: Sídh Beag – Sídh Mór.
A most worthy monument to this great man, and a "must visit" for any lover of Irish music and its history.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Surely it'd be a fair bet that Carolan 'borrowed' heavily from the music of the day - adapted and modified etc. He is credited with many airs but maybe this is more to do with the fact that he moved in the sort of social circles where there was an impetus to notate and write down the melodies for publication?
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I'm no expert, but I think the spelling Tony has there is correct - Sidh, sometimes spelled Sidhe. I think the meaning in Irish refers both, or alternately to the otherworld, the 'daoine maith', "the gentry", or in English I suppose - "the fairy", more precisely "faery" probably, and also to the hills in which they are supposed to dwell.
So the battle between the 'two fairies' has that connotation of the neighbouring hills.
I think the word also has a further meaning something like a sudden breeze (presumably very conspicuous on a still day for example).
There is a brilliant sidhe near Lisdoonvarna called Lisanteeaun (Lios an tsiodhan), and another very ominous looking one down near the coast road from Doolin to Fanore.
Well worth a visit.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/places/lisdoon_history.htm
Lissateeaun (fort of the fairy hill), which lies 1½ miles to the North-East, near the old castle site.
Lisdoonvarna takes its name from "Lios Duin Bhearna" the lios or enclosure of the fort in the gap. It is thought to refer to the green earthen fort of Lissateeaun (fort of the fairy hill), which lies 1½ miles to the North-East, near the old castle site.
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/archaeology/arch_burren/part6_cahermakerrila_group.htm
Lissateeaun, Lis an tsidheán, the fairy fort, lies in a townland called Gowlaun, from the ‘fork’ (Gabhal) of the stream. It is a mote-like mound, shaped out of the natural bluff, but raised and rounded so as to form a high flat-topped platform sufficiently imposing as seen from the road bridge to the east. A shallow fosse runs round it on the side of the plateau in a semicircle. There are no other mounds or hut sites, nor is it easy to fix its actual height, as it runs into the natural slopes. The summit lies about 400 feet above the sea.
Its resemblance to a burial mound may have helped its reputation as a sidh, but it very probably was, if not in origin, at least in use, a true lis or residential fort, as its name implies. Sidheán in Co. Clare living usage, by the way, implies rather a passing gust or whirl of wind in which the fairies travel. It is a prophylactic usage to bow or take off your hat as the gust reaches you.[6] The fort is reputed to give its name to the Castle of Lisdoonvarna, ‘the fortified fort of the gap.’ The gap is the river gully, and the levelled ring wall at the head of the slope to the north is Caherbarna.
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/folklore/folk_tales/chapter1.htm
I have already noted [7] a warning in 1905 by two natives at Croaghateeaun, north-west of Ballinalacken Castle, to cross ourselves as a protection ‘against the Dananns,’ and not far away to the east, near Lisdoonvarna Castle, is the entrenched natural green hillock of Lissateeaun (Lios an t siodhain), the ‘fairy fort,’ which was in 1839 a recognised palace of the Dé Danann.
- Westropp.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
"shee" is the anglicised phonetic version of the word.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
If you go to the South Sligo Summer School based near Tobercurry - you can spend an afternoon visiting Knocknashee or Cnoc na Sidhe - the hill of the fairies. One of the great European Hillforts with numerous archaelogical remains on the summit plateau which is encircled by a great stone wall. There's even a wee park nearby - Gillighan's World - dedicated to the world of the fairies!
Ah yes, thesession.org - a great source of knowledge...
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
...separating your cnocs from your lioses though.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Sorry about the cuckoo comment, just thought it ironic to be discussing the 'parentage' of a tune also known as "The Bonny Cuckoo".
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/SIA_SIO.htm#SI_BHEAG,_SI_MHOR
Dunno about fairies but I can hear the cuckoo.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by David50
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Wounded Huzzar, you may be right about a general tendency for musicians to crib a bit here and there, but the individual character and style of the tunes passed down as Carolan's suggest that they were indeed the product of of an innovative and individual musical talent.
Certain tunes stick out as being different and are probably wrongly accredited, such as Blind Mary. Others have something distinctive about them that makes you think it a planxty before anyone says who wrote it., O'Carolan may be copied, but I don't think he was much of a copier.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I thought it was moderately well established that the Bonny Cuckoo tune was older than Carolan. No?
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
We climbed to the top of Sheebeg in early December (it's a mile or so SW of Keshcarrigan in Co. Leitrim). It's an atmospheric spot with a splendid view around the environs and the site of a Megalithic tomb. Mind you, it's also usually home to an inquisitive herd of bullocks. There are pictures (not mine) here - http://www.megalithomania.com/show/site/1280.
Sheemore's some five miles further to the southwest - http://www.irishmegaliths.org.uk/leitrim.htm.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
If the tune is partly founded on an older one, can somebody please post that, so we may compare them ?
I find Carolan's work is so firmly stuck in my head that I can't envisage this prior tune, if it be true.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
If it was written by Carolan I can see why it might gain another name involving a cuckoo. Also why someone hearing such a clear cuckoo motif might suggest an earlier tune/song about a cuckoo.
The Bonny Cuckoo is listed in the index of Bunting's "Ancient Music of Ireland arranged for the Pianoforte'" on Google books.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by David50
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Introduction by DOUGLAS HYDE, LL.D., D. Litt., M.R.I.A. (An Craoibhin Aoibhinn), President of the Gaelic League; author of A Literary History of Ireland, &c.
This is taken from W.Y. Evans Wentz's The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries.]
1911
“My own experience is that beliefs in the Sidhe (pronounced Shee) folk, and in other denizens of the invisible world is, in many places, rapidly dying. In reading folk-lore collections like those of Mr. Wentz and others, one is naturally inclined to exaggerate the extent and depth of these traditions. They certainly still exist, and can be found if you go to search for them; but they often exist almost as it were by sufferance, only in spots, and are ceasing to be any longer a power. Near my home in a western county (County Roscommon) rises gently a slope, which, owing to the flatness of the surrounding regions, almost becomes a hill, and is a conspicuous object for many miles upon every side. The old people called it in Irish Mullach na Sidhe. This name is now practically lost, and it is called Fairymount.
Of all the beings in the Irish mythological world the Sidhe are, however, apparently the oldest and the most distinctive. Beside them in literature and general renown all other beings sink into insignificance. A belief in them formerly dominated the whole of Irish life. The Sidhe or Tuatha De Danann were a people like ourselves who inhabited the hills - not as a rule the highest and most salient eminences, but I think more usually the pleasant undulating slopes or gentle hill-sides - and who lived there a life of their own, marrying or giving in marriage, banqueting or making war, and leading there just as real a life as is our own. All Irish literature, particularly perhaps the ‘Colloquy of the Ancients’ (Agallamh na Sen—rach) abounds with reference to them.”
Link to the whole book, if you’re interested. All of this sort of folklore would have been very well known to Carolan of course.
http://www.worldspirituality.org/fairy-faith.html
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Who are some other irish composers of the same period?
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Is that not the point? The folk music of the days when Carolan lived (around 1700) was generally not collected or notated - whatever was played was just played. General levels of literacy and 'education' were low. So people of the wealthier classes who had the capacity to collect and write music did so here & there but one must always presume through the prism of their own formal musical experience and education. So I think they took the general folk airs, added lots of embellishments and made fancy arrangements etc. and published these in various collections.
Carolan was different it seems, insofar as he was rooted in the folk music but was also patronised by wealthy landowners. So perhaps he moved in between. But presumably he also took melodies of the day and put his own stamp, his arrangement on them. And because he was who he was, these tended to be collected and attributed to him.
I don't see anything wrong with that - there's nothing wrong with copying and interpreting but surely that's where the phrase 'attributed to O'Carolan' comes from. i.e. in the abscence of other records, this seems to be a Carolan piece.
Molly Halpin is one of those, if I recall correctly i.e. sometimes attributed to Carolan but more than likely, music of the day.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Nice summary, and mentions the Carolan Italian connection:
http://www.oldmusicproject.com/OCC.html
"His first patron was George Reynolds of County Leitrim who suggested that Carolan - as he was known to himself and his friends - try his hand at composition. With this encouragement, Carolan composed 'Si Bheag, Si Mhor,' which means ' Big Hill, Little Hill,' and refers to a site in Co. Meath where, according to folklore, two battling giants were turned by a wizard into two hills. To this day, the tune is still closely associated with Carolan, the composer. Thereafter,
Carolan composed tunes for most of his patrons, usually putting them together on his journeys…
I"n Carolan's time, there were three musical traditions in Ireland - art music, folk music, and the harper tradition. The harper tradition served as a link between art and folk music and was the main conduit for the oral tradition. Carolan created a unique style by combining these art forms, and then adding elements inspired by Italian music which was then fashionable in Ireland. He was a great admirer of Vivaldi and Corelli, whose modern music he would have heard in the homes of his noble Irish patrons, and this admiration is reflected in the melodic construction and forms of many of his pieces…
We can hear Carolan reaching toward the Italian style, but without leaving behind the folk roots of the Irish tradition.'…
Carolan bridges the gap between continental art music on the one hand, and the Gaelic harp and folk music on the other. At his best he wrote music that is distinctively Irish, yet has an international flavor as well.”
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Interesting to read the variations between Donal O'Sullivan's account and the one just above.
I agree also with the comment about the three strands of music. It seems to me that surely some of the reasons for the harp music being so distinct, apart from the harp tradition, is the mechanical differences between the harp and other instruments , in the same way that we know a tune is a good fiddle tune, or a pipe tune, for instance, because it sits easier on one instrument or the other because of the mechanical differences in how you have to play it ?
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I think most people at the time, especially those for whom Carolan generally played, would have been very conversant with the old tunes and airs of the time, and would have easily detected if Carolan would have based Si Beag Si Mor on an earlier tune called The Cuckoo, for example.
As well, the sentiment of the tune "matches" that of what folklore regarding the Sidhe is (or was) all about.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I think it's interesting too, how English-language commentators, then as now apparently, want to interpret the meaning of Sidhe, as "hill", whereas in Irish, there is that dual meaning with equal importance on both. An interesting, and possibly a very profound, cultural difference.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I seem to remember that Molly Halpin/halfpenny etc. was attributed to the blind harper Rory Dall, but it has since been discovered that it was written by a different blind harper with the same name.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Much like Shakespeares' plays were actually written by a different guy with the same name ?
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I thought everyone knew that.
I think in the Rory Dall case it's actually true, only I'm not certain I got the right tune.
I read somewhere, I think the O'Sullivan book, that Molly Halpin was the tune that Carolan most wished he'd written. Try playing it slowly, it works really well.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
there were two Rory Dall, harpists.
http://www.earlygaelicharp.info/rorydall/
Rory Dall's sister lamented this fact and wrote this:
http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab7/roryd.html
I think one of them was related to Christopher Marlowe who is believed to have been the pen behind William Shakespeare. So to speak.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Tabhair Dom Do Lamh is the tune I had heard confusion over regarding the Rory Dalls. Some of it here: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/454
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by David50
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Spot on David. Hold out you're hand. Written to placate some posh woman that gave him a lift and mistook him for rif-raf rather than a master musician. It's a great tune with loads of attitude.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
Except that Googling "Da mihi manum" leads to another strand of that debate. But we are a bit off-topic.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by David50
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
The reason that I asked this question was, my partner and I gave an informal concert at a yoga retreat during the weekend. We played this tune, but not being certain of the history, I was hesitant to provide any information on the composer. Thank you, to everyone who has contributed. The links were especially helpful and interesting. In 1976, a friend and I visited Ireland, seeking his (Nugent) family roots. We spent some time driving around and staying several days in Carrick on Shannon. At that time, I wasn't a fiddler or harpist. When I return, I will definitely have an O'Carolan focus for my next visit.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Leendah
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
I love listening to Carolan music, never get tired of it.
He lets us hear what he could not see. That much we share.
It all comes down to imagination, I think, and that does not change much over the centuries, except perhaps diminish to various degrees.
Si Beag Si Mor is his finest example, I think, and maybe why it is probably the most popular of his pieces.
# Posted on June 30th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Attributed to O'Carolan
The spelling for Sídh Beag – Sídh Mór at O'Carolan's grave may not be 100% reliable as the grave stone shows him performing with a concert harp, which was not even invented during his time.
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by celticways