please humour me ~ however briefly.
my current session is a rather *open* affair. I have no design on changing this.
It may well become more of an occasion for songs than for tunes.
Fair play. Sessions, as I know them, are rarely played by a group of people who know the tunes
(aside from the old standards). Those players (who *know* the tunes) are in the minority.
Fortunately I do know some excellent traditional players. I always seem to find someone who plays a *new* tune
which I want to pick up.
The singers have a marginal interest in the tune (within the song) Yet there is much greater interest in harmonies, chords, & arrangements. Fair play. I wish them well. However, I tend more toward listening than playing; during songs.
O.K. I'm beating around the bush. Please respond if you have ever had an interest in playing with people who just cannot get enough of playing tunes. I know this sounds absurd on thesession.org
I'm a bit torn.
My plan is to keep going to the Tuesday night session, hoping I will continue to pick up more tunes & introduce a few.
I need to keep in mind harmonies are just a type of variation.
I am perfectly happy being in either a solid tunes session or something far more akin to a sing-around. The problem I find, as I am sure is common is that it is hard to get a session that successfully combines both. I think the ideal is probably a session where in the 3 hours (for example) you have maybe 2 or 3 songs maximum, something to break the night up and offer a contrast. Song sessions however tend to attract a different balance of instruments, starting with many more guitars. If all of those guitarists try to play at once then it kills the tunes. This is particularly frustrating if one guitarist/singer who has supposedly been playing in the session for 30 years but doesn't have a bloody clue about backing (and doesn't have a particularly lovely voice come to think of it) insists on playing along to every tune set giving no one else any space to play at all. Err, purely as an example you understand - I have no one in particular in mind (!)
The point is more songs tend to attract more guitars and possibly also percussion and they can have the knock on effect of some of the best fiddlers, etc deciding not to bother.
There's so many reasons for doing so. But the main reason is that songs, by their very nature, are performances. It changes the whole direction of just you and you mates playing tunes for yourselves.
People often come up to us in the pub and ask politely if they can sing a song. We politely say no.
Maybe what you need is some structure--say 45 minutes of tunes and then some singers for 10-15 minutes and back to tunes. This works successfully at my local but it really takes someone to say "now some songs and so and so is going to start and so and so is next..."
Auburn, being in Chico, CA you no doubt understand that sessions in relatively small American towns can easily get off track. We're surrounded by so many genres of music, and the local culture typically doesn't comprehend the characteristics that make for a good trad session. No we're not a band, no we're not a n improv jam, no we're not open mic night, and so on.
The only way I know of to sustain a good trad session is to let everyone know that that is precisely what it is. Here in Helena we went through a phase where people regularly showed up ready to play bluegrass, old timey, or swing, or to sing cowboy songs or the Pogues, or English drinking songs.
Our message to these folks was always the same: "You're welcome to play one tune, or sing your song, but this is an Irish trad session. On this one night a week, we get together to play Irish (and a few Scottish and Cape Breton) tunes. There are bluegrass, old timey, and swing jams elsewhere on other nights of the week if you want to play that kind of music."
Most people played their one tune and then went back to listening. A few got hooked on Irish trad and now play with us more than they play the other music. In 12 years, we've had only a handful of people get upset. I pulled one aside and politely explained that us core players had spent years learning these tunes and this music, and we came out only one night a week to play them. And that one night was never enough to play a fraction of the tunes we all know. So we didn't want to spend precious time playing other sorts of music on this one night. (Some of us also play at the other music jams, so it's not about being elitist or one-track-minded.)
Unless you live in an Irish trad enclave where this music is an integral part of the culture and community, you have to set boundaries. Or watch your session become something else. And the only way to find other people in your community who want to play this music is to keep your session focused on this music.
leoj, that sounds too contrived--it would kill the flow of a good session.
We have occasional songs at our sessions, but the singers are instrumental players, so they know to wait for an appropriate time for a song. And it's almost always just one song at a time, and then back to the tunes. Sometimes weeks go by without any songs.
You might have wondered why the word "jam" isn't included. If it was there, then everyone would understand what it is, but since it's not, then it can be pointed out to people, who know nothing about it, as a distinction. If you're in Ireland you can say it's where traditional music is played. If you're outside of Ireland you might have to specify what kind of traditional music it is. A trad session is usually limited to tunes, but often songs will be included, but it's really up to the people who started the session as to what the parameters are within the genre as all sessions aren't identical and there are no universal rules to base it on. The only thing that's consistent is that it's focusing on Irish traditional music.
Come visit the local and we will show you how it's done. LOL.
I was suggesting this as a possible way to work out of a situation in which there is a group with a different agenda--singers and players. Happily, it does function well most of the time for us--but there are times when it does interrupt the flow of the tunes. So, we step out for smoke or a chat or whatever. Sometimes the singers are good and a break is welcome.
Thanks for all your responses. Sorry I did not respond earlier. Not much to add. Like I said in the beginning I love, "playing with people who just cannot get enough of playing tunes."
These are my mates & will always find an opportunity to make music with them. Other sessions do exist, near & far, so I just need to drop in on them. No shackles on these ankles.
leoj, if I remember correctly a couple of months back you asked about Lark. I have not been there in years. Last time I was there John Skelton was great fun. Hope he is doing well & playing to all hours. Don't be surprised if I find your session one of these days. I would love to have someone show me how it is done. ;)
Back to what is a (my/your/any) session? {r.} Three of my mates, who sing, are good trad players. Each one of them introduces tunes which I tend to pick up on. In all there are 5 singers. Each has an excellent voice.
The other 2 singers aren't exactly chomping at the bit for tunes. Rather I see stars in their eyes when the songs get started. One is a newbie (guitar). In the past I have always encouraged those who wish to perform (& sing) to start a band. Once again I am putting out the word, 'the session is neither a gig nor practice.'
Anyway that is a bit of a tangent . . .
Bottom line ~ our Tuesday night session is an open session. Any one who wishes may sit in. The cafe is spacious & the owners are friendly. Songs will not be barred. I must hasten to add, Michael, I appreciate your comments (probably more than you know). Simply not my place to make that call in this session.
Hypothetically, if I were ever to start up a session, I would let everyone know it is about playing the tunes . . . exactly as Will put it, ""You're welcome to play one tune, or sing your song, but this is an Irish trad session. On this one night a week, we get together to play Irish (and a few Scottish and Cape Breton) tunes. There are bluegrass, old timey, and swing jams elsewhere on other nights of the week if you want to play that kind of music."
Well put. I ramble.
Thanks everyone for letting me borrow your ears.
Cheers!
What do you say to the well-meaning people who think you are doing what they like, and try to bring that in to a different sort of session ?
This is an on-going problem, isn't it ?
The Sacred-Harp-singing session that gathered at Towersey Festival last year was gatecrashed by the local vicar with some very boring unison hymns. I wish somebody had stood up to him.
PS I've nothing against christians, except their assumption that they are always right.
To anyone who wishes to bring something different into the session you let them know directly what the session is.
Michael & Will each, answer that question very well.
No one is crashing my current session. It is an open session (tunes as well as songs, mainly Irish but many genres are played . . .)
I am not so much pondering what I plan to do at the Tuesday night session. There is plenty of fun the way it is & the way it is going.
The real question in my mind is where do I actually start to develop a new session or join another all ready formed.
Pete, you cannot brood over what has happened & passed. You can only be clear about your purpose now.
A music session is somewhere where open books are frowned upon.
Yet singers think it is fine to turn up and "read" a song they can't be bothered to learn (and still make a hash of it).
A session is somewhere where singers won't sing before 10.30pm then after the dutch courage kicks in, they all want to sing in the last hour, just when the sets are warming up.
A session is somewhere where singers bore musicians with non-trad, non-Irish, totally unsuitable dirges.
A singing session is somewhere where musicians aren't allowed to get a look in.
p.s. I can sing, but choose not to in sessions.
Take it from me, I'm a fiddler, a singer and a session flight attendant, you have to keep those singers on a SHORT leash. It's very viral, one sings, the other sings, somebody else wants to sing, and before you know it, some drunken yokel has busted out some hackneyed warbling about 'wild rovers' or 'whiskey in a jar' in a horrendous fake brogue.
Time's wasting. I want to be prepared for tomorrow nights session. Do you think "Wild Rover" & "Whiskey in a Jar" will be enough? Thanks SWFL!
Now, if I can just learn the words. & how to play guitar. & sing.
Who am I kidding. It's "Danny Boy" ~ acapella.
Al , does not every leaf that falls in the forest make a sound even if no one is there.
Random , do you want a copy of the words? I Usually get by singing Danny Boy,Danny boy , danny boy danny boy, danny boy danny boy etc
Until I run out of music or fall over
We played at an 80th birthday party & "Danny Boy" had been requested. We knew this in advance. Our box player, who was the singer, was so sick of it after about 10 seconds he stopped. He told the whole party they had to sing along. Not just the chorus ~ every word. He had dreaded this for a whole week. I had such a good time watching him sweat that one out. He sped it up too.
Thanks for the words Bazouki. Now I'm ready. These are much easier than the other version. oooOOOOhhhhh Da - nny____ Boy, danny boy, danny boy . . . etc.
SWFL, here's the action report. Sometimes I underestimate the power of the tunes.
I don't know if power is the best word. There is something about these tunes. They seem to want to be in the session, & they were. Not the session of sessions last night. At times it tended toward a learners session, 2 newbies. Still I was happy to be at the cafe. Even if it was only for a particular tune.
3 songs
many tunes
I missed any opportunity I may have had to sing 'Danny Boy'
the session could not happen without the musicians but they are only the tip of the iceberg not the whole north pole. begrudgers will always find things to fault so as they themselves appear closer to faultlessness . i seen the best of sessions both off the players and their packed houses applaud singers with no ability but for heart alone. thats the true session community enjoying its own and taking itself to euphoria leaving none behind. you always know the shisters . they are the ones out there always begrudging everything and everyone . aaahhhhhh the pale moon was rising above the green mountains
what is a session? (rhetorical)
what is a session? (rhetorical)
please humour me ~ however briefly.
my current session is a rather *open* affair. I have no design on changing this.
It may well become more of an occasion for songs than for tunes.
Fair play. Sessions, as I know them, are rarely played by a group of people who know the tunes
(aside from the old standards). Those players (who *know* the tunes) are in the minority.
Fortunately I do know some excellent traditional players. I always seem to find someone who plays a *new* tune
which I want to pick up.
The singers have a marginal interest in the tune (within the song) Yet there is much greater interest in harmonies, chords, & arrangements. Fair play. I wish them well. However, I tend more toward listening than playing; during songs.
O.K. I'm beating around the bush. Please respond if you have ever had an interest in playing with people who just cannot get enough of playing tunes. I know this sounds absurd on thesession.org
I'm a bit torn.
My plan is to keep going to the Tuesday night session, hoping I will continue to pick up more tunes & introduce a few.
I need to keep in mind harmonies are just a type of variation.
Cheers ;)
# Posted on June 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
I am perfectly happy being in either a solid tunes session or something far more akin to a sing-around. The problem I find, as I am sure is common is that it is hard to get a session that successfully combines both. I think the ideal is probably a session where in the 3 hours (for example) you have maybe 2 or 3 songs maximum, something to break the night up and offer a contrast. Song sessions however tend to attract a different balance of instruments, starting with many more guitars. If all of those guitarists try to play at once then it kills the tunes. This is particularly frustrating if one guitarist/singer who has supposedly been playing in the session for 30 years but doesn't have a bloody clue about backing (and doesn't have a particularly lovely voice come to think of it) insists on playing along to every tune set giving no one else any space to play at all. Err, purely as an example you understand - I have no one in particular in mind (!)
The point is more songs tend to attract more guitars and possibly also percussion and they can have the knock on effect of some of the best fiddlers, etc deciding not to bother.
All in all I would rather have the tunes.
# Posted on June 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
It's simple. ban songs.
There's so many reasons for doing so. But the main reason is that songs, by their very nature, are performances. It changes the whole direction of just you and you mates playing tunes for yourselves.
People often come up to us in the pub and ask politely if they can sing a song. We politely say no.
# Posted on June 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Maybe what you need is some structure--say 45 minutes of tunes and then some singers for 10-15 minutes and back to tunes. This works successfully at my local but it really takes someone to say "now some songs and so and so is going to start and so and so is next..."
# Posted on June 27th 2009 by leoj
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Auburn, being in Chico, CA you no doubt understand that sessions in relatively small American towns can easily get off track. We're surrounded by so many genres of music, and the local culture typically doesn't comprehend the characteristics that make for a good trad session. No we're not a band, no we're not a n improv jam, no we're not open mic night, and so on.
The only way I know of to sustain a good trad session is to let everyone know that that is precisely what it is. Here in Helena we went through a phase where people regularly showed up ready to play bluegrass, old timey, or swing, or to sing cowboy songs or the Pogues, or English drinking songs.
Our message to these folks was always the same: "You're welcome to play one tune, or sing your song, but this is an Irish trad session. On this one night a week, we get together to play Irish (and a few Scottish and Cape Breton) tunes. There are bluegrass, old timey, and swing jams elsewhere on other nights of the week if you want to play that kind of music."
Most people played their one tune and then went back to listening. A few got hooked on Irish trad and now play with us more than they play the other music. In 12 years, we've had only a handful of people get upset. I pulled one aside and politely explained that us core players had spent years learning these tunes and this music, and we came out only one night a week to play them. And that one night was never enough to play a fraction of the tunes we all know. So we didn't want to spend precious time playing other sorts of music on this one night. (Some of us also play at the other music jams, so it's not about being elitist or one-track-minded.)
Unless you live in an Irish trad enclave where this music is an integral part of the culture and community, you have to set boundaries. Or watch your session become something else. And the only way to find other people in your community who want to play this music is to keep your session focused on this music.
# Posted on June 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
leoj, that sounds too contrived--it would kill the flow of a good session.
We have occasional songs at our sessions, but the singers are instrumental players, so they know to wait for an appropriate time for a song. And it's almost always just one song at a time, and then back to the tunes. Sometimes weeks go by without any songs.
# Posted on June 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
You might have wondered why the word "jam" isn't included. If it was there, then everyone would understand what it is, but since it's not, then it can be pointed out to people, who know nothing about it, as a distinction. If you're in Ireland you can say it's where traditional music is played. If you're outside of Ireland you might have to specify what kind of traditional music it is. A trad session is usually limited to tunes, but often songs will be included, but it's really up to the people who started the session as to what the parameters are within the genre as all sessions aren't identical and there are no universal rules to base it on. The only thing that's consistent is that it's focusing on Irish traditional music.
# Posted on June 28th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Come visit the local and we will show you how it's done. LOL.
I was suggesting this as a possible way to work out of a situation in which there is a group with a different agenda--singers and players. Happily, it does function well most of the time for us--but there are times when it does interrupt the flow of the tunes. So, we step out for smoke or a chat or whatever. Sometimes the singers are good and a break is welcome.
# Posted on June 28th 2009 by leoj
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Thanks for all your responses. Sorry I did not respond earlier. Not much to add. Like I said in the beginning I love, "playing with people who just cannot get enough of playing tunes."
These are my mates & will always find an opportunity to make music with them. Other sessions do exist, near & far, so I just need to drop in on them. No shackles on these ankles.
leoj, if I remember correctly a couple of months back you asked about Lark. I have not been there in years. Last time I was there John Skelton was great fun. Hope he is doing well & playing to all hours. Don't be surprised if I find your session one of these days. I would love to have someone show me how it is done. ;)
Back to what is a (my/your/any) session? {r.} Three of my mates, who sing, are good trad players. Each one of them introduces tunes which I tend to pick up on. In all there are 5 singers. Each has an excellent voice.
The other 2 singers aren't exactly chomping at the bit for tunes. Rather I see stars in their eyes when the songs get started. One is a newbie (guitar). In the past I have always encouraged those who wish to perform (& sing) to start a band. Once again I am putting out the word, 'the session is neither a gig nor practice.'
Anyway that is a bit of a tangent . . .
Bottom line ~ our Tuesday night session is an open session. Any one who wishes may sit in. The cafe is spacious & the owners are friendly. Songs will not be barred. I must hasten to add, Michael, I appreciate your comments (probably more than you know). Simply not my place to make that call in this session.
Hypothetically, if I were ever to start up a session, I would let everyone know it is about playing the tunes . . . exactly as Will put it, ""You're welcome to play one tune, or sing your song, but this is an Irish trad session. On this one night a week, we get together to play Irish (and a few Scottish and Cape Breton) tunes. There are bluegrass, old timey, and swing jams elsewhere on other nights of the week if you want to play that kind of music."
Well put. I ramble.
Thanks everyone for letting me borrow your ears.
Cheers!
# Posted on June 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
What do you say to the well-meaning people who think you are doing what they like, and try to bring that in to a different sort of session ?
This is an on-going problem, isn't it ?
The Sacred-Harp-singing session that gathered at Towersey Festival last year was gatecrashed by the local vicar with some very boring unison hymns. I wish somebody had stood up to him.
PS I've nothing against christians, except their assumption that they are always right.
# Posted on June 28th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
To anyone who wishes to bring something different into the session you let them know directly what the session is.
Michael & Will each, answer that question very well.
No one is crashing my current session. It is an open session (tunes as well as songs, mainly Irish but many genres are played . . .)
I am not so much pondering what I plan to do at the Tuesday night session. There is plenty of fun the way it is & the way it is going.
The real question in my mind is where do I actually start to develop a new session or join another all ready formed.
Pete, you cannot brood over what has happened & passed. You can only be clear about your purpose now.
# Posted on June 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Correction
*You* can do what you want in that regard. should have said; in the same situation ,"I cannot brood . . . yada yada blah blah woof - woof"
# Posted on June 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
A music session is somewhere where open books are frowned upon.
Yet singers think it is fine to turn up and "read" a song they can't be bothered to learn (and still make a hash of it).
A session is somewhere where singers won't sing before 10.30pm then after the dutch courage kicks in, they all want to sing in the last hour, just when the sets are warming up.
A session is somewhere where singers bore musicians with non-trad, non-Irish, totally unsuitable dirges.
A singing session is somewhere where musicians aren't allowed to get a look in.
p.s. I can sing, but choose not to in sessions.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
"The only thing that's consistent is that it's focusing on Irish traditional music."
Tell that to the people in the Lerwick Lounge...
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by John J.
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Call the Sergeant at Arms! Lay the lumber down!
Take it from me, I'm a fiddler, a singer and a session flight attendant, you have to keep those singers on a SHORT leash. It's very viral, one sings, the other sings, somebody else wants to sing, and before you know it, some drunken yokel has busted out some hackneyed warbling about 'wild rovers' or 'whiskey in a jar' in a horrendous fake brogue.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Can anyone find that pricless Dylan Moran clip when he's at the session thowing babies at the wall?
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
I thought it was Tommy Tiernan, llig?
( in fact I know. It was)
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
ah ha
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Still can't find it
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
discussion thread entitled 'it's back' 9th. June no cause for alarm
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21780
I am touched Dave that you took notice of my humble thread. And there was me thinking it went down like a lead balloon.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
rhetorical
There's nothing there. ;)
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Ach, damn it. The rest of the show is up on Youtube. Why does the bit about traditional music have to be repeatedly taken down? Not fair!
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
The other stuff is very good also though
(I wonder if Jeremy likes the one about the Cork accent?)
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: what is the song? (rhetorical)
Time's wasting. I want to be prepared for tomorrow nights session. Do you think "Wild Rover" & "Whiskey in a Jar" will be enough? Thanks SWFL!
Now, if I can just learn the words. & how to play guitar. & sing.
Who am I kidding. It's "Danny Boy" ~ acapella.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Al , does not every leaf that falls in the forest make a sound even if no one is there.
Random , do you want a copy of the words? I Usually get by singing Danny Boy,Danny boy , danny boy danny boy, danny boy danny boy etc
Until I run out of music or fall over
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Or get 'felled' by one of your fellow sessionistas.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
I could just sit there with my fingers in my ears while someone is trying to sing about roving wildly in a jar of whiskey with Danny.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Al I will sing it for you next time we meet
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
We played at an 80th birthday party & "Danny Boy" had been requested. We knew this in advance. Our box player, who was the singer, was so sick of it after about 10 seconds he stopped. He told the whole party they had to sing along. Not just the chorus ~ every word. He had dreaded this for a whole week. I had such a good time watching him sweat that one out. He sped it up too.
Thanks for the words Bazouki. Now I'm ready. These are much easier than the other version. oooOOOOhhhhh Da - nny____ Boy, danny boy, danny boy . . . etc.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Danny Boy can be lovely. It just depends how it is played:
http://guitarvideos.com/assets/mcmanus/danny.ram
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
*
Don't anybody worry.
If you plan to come to Cafe Culture, this Tuesday, I will not be singing.
You only have to put up with my playing.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
**
The one time Danny Boy was perfect
July 31st 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14623/
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
Can't wait to hear how it goes, Random. I look forward to an after action report!
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Rhetoric
SWFL, here's the action report. Sometimes I underestimate the power of the tunes.
I don't know if power is the best word. There is something about these tunes. They seem to want to be in the session, & they were. Not the session of sessions last night. At times it tended toward a learners session, 2 newbies. Still I was happy to be at the cafe. Even if it was only for a particular tune.
3 songs
many tunes
I missed any opportunity I may have had to sing 'Danny Boy'
cheers
# Posted on July 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
the session could not happen without the musicians but they are only the tip of the iceberg not the whole north pole. begrudgers will always find things to fault so as they themselves appear closer to faultlessness . i seen the best of sessions both off the players and their packed houses applaud singers with no ability but for heart alone. thats the true session community enjoying its own and taking itself to euphoria leaving none behind. you always know the shisters . they are the ones out there always begrudging everything and everyone . aaahhhhhh the pale moon was rising above the green mountains
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by gimyatune
Re: what is a session? (rhetorical)
reels, reels, reels
are where the 'real' sessions' at
reeling in reels
# Posted on July 7th 2009 by lisaniska