It seems the whenever a discussion about the invention of the Irish bouzouki crops up everyone is quick to mention Johnny Moynihan, Andy Irvine, Donal Lunny, or Peter Abnetts's name.
But how can this be? the Irish bouzouki is almost identical to the flat back mandocello that's been about since at least the 1920's. It has same shape, similar tunings, and (give or take a fret or 2) has the same scale length.
Granted it may have minor differences, but altogether it is the the same instrument of the 1920's that Gibson mass produced as part of the mando family. The mandocello being around 25 inch in scale length. I mean, if I go and make an instrument with a fret longer than an Irish bouzouki, can I call it by a different name and claim I invented it? No... So give back your claim to inventing the Irish Bouzouki Mr Moynihan and the rest of you, and confess to everyone that they've been playing a mandocello all along!!!
I know some of you might go into the difference of tunings on the different mando related instruments, but it is not about that. It is simply about the shape, construction and size of the instrument and the fact that it has existed for a long time, whatever the tuning.
Next time someone even mentions the name 'Irish Bouzouki' please kindly point out that it must be a mandocello that they are talking about, and the confusion must lie with the claims made by some fraudulent folk musicans from the 70's.
Check out these mandocello vids and try and tell me that they're not playing a so called 'Irish bouzouki'. The instruments that these lads are playing are from at least 50years before Johnny Moynihans claim of creating an 'Irish Bouzouki'.
I dont really know where to start...or what to say....
It all comes down to opinion and scale length.
Your right in the sence that the Gibsons have been about for years, but I would add that in my own thoughts the bouzouki, or the "Irish bouzouki" that I and others play today did come from the likes of Lunny and Irvine designs in the late 60s- early 70s.
It was only then that the bouzouki came into Irish trad music, no one else was using the Gibson mandocello in ITM at that time that I am aware of.....
The tuning also takes a big part, but the scale length says it all...
I play a Cittern also, and some people say its not a Cittern, but a Blarge. A blarge in a ten string bouzouki scale length intrument, Not a Cittern......
I guess they all kind of come from the same family a that, but my bouzouki is far from a mandocello.....
The truth is that people continually re-invent the wheel.
I don't suppose that either Johnny Moynihan, Andy Irvine, or Donal Lunny were aware of the mandocello when they first started re-stringing Greek bouzoukis so they could tune them in 5ths and play them like tenor banjos.
And I don't believe they were aware of the bouzouki that John Bailey had built for John Pearse years previously with a flat-backed body much like a Portuguese guitarra.
If you want to try to eliminate Moynihan's name, he claims to be fed up with the celebrity, or notoriety, it has brought him.
The truth is that a small group of people saw that a variation on a common pattern of instrument could make a new, to them, instrument that could be very useful.
And the rest is history.
PS My 'Irish bouzouki' was built in Korea. What does that make it ?
Not yet Seanie - plenty of interest though. Fingers crossed ; - )
Did you manage to sell yours?
Back to the thread, I guess it doesn't matter what you call it. Alec Finn plays a Rembetika bouzouki but there's no doubt about the way he's playing it . . .
Guernsey Pete - I was interested in your comment that Mr Moynihan might not have been aware of John Bailey's bouzouki made for John Pearse - but I'm pretty sure I saw a John Bailey label inside Mr M's own flatback 'zouk back in October 1970 when he played Nottingham U. (He had it tuned GDAE when I saw it.)
On the documentary 'Folk Hibernia', Moynihan describes how he invented/created it.
Alec Finn does however play a real bouzouki, as it is the genuine greek instrument.
I think that tuning of the instrument doesn't give it its name, as I could get a guitar and tune it to any bizarre tuning - that doesn't call for me to rename a guitar as an 'Irish Guitar' because essentially it's still a guitar.
Likewise, if i was to have a guitar built with a neck two frets longer than the standard guitar - it would still be called a guitar(with a long neck).
And the country that an instrument is made in makes no difference to what it is. If it was made in england it'd be an English bouzouki then!
If they were aware of mandocello's or not, or if they were in Irish music or not, is beside the point.
The point is that they DID exist, and the 'Irish Bouzouki' is an incorrect (and quite poor) name for what is essentially a mandocello.
Seanie, can you say exactly how your instrument differs from a mandocello that would go outside the boundries of being tuned a little differently and being a fret or two longer?
Surely a mandocello is tuned CGda, ie an octave below a mandola, an octave and a 5th below a mandolin ?
People are making and playing these now. No confusion with a 'zouk, of any nationality.
Also.....
Hey, Jim. Never seen you on this forum before.
How's the next novel coming along ? Is it a sequel or a one-off ?
Also, there weren't many good luthiers known to the folk world in 1970 - it may well be that it was John Bailey who Johnny Moynihan turned to get his first flatback 'zouk.
Again Pete, I can't see why tuning an instrument diffently gives it a different name. Your right about a mandocello being normally tuned in fifths CGda, and the so called 'Irish Bouzouki' is also tuned in fifths to GDae of with a dropped e to d making it GDad. Minor differences.
If I tune may four string banjo to GDad will that make it 'bouzouki banjo'? No, it'll still be a four string banjo just tuned to my own preference.
My whole point is basically that a flat back bouzouki is called a mandocello.
I'm from Ireland so this is not an attack at the instrument being claimed by the Irish. If anything it should be called an Irish mandocello (or Irish mando) if there was a need to differentiate it from it's rightful brother!
It's true that Gibson made a family of instruments patterned on the violin family, but modelled on the mandolin instead of the violin. These were made for the mandolin orchestra craze of the 1920s, and those instruments are still around.
However, the construction of the "irish bouzouki" is radically different from that of the Gibson instruments - flat top, not carved, different bracing, etc. Totally different, of course, from the Greek bouzouki as well (which is in turn completely different from the tsouras which preceded it - that's a wild instrument, and great fun to play!)
Roughly, I think the sequence goes like this:
tsouras = 3 course, DAd. one-piece bowl/neck (bowl is carved, not joined)
bouzouki = originally 3-course DAd, later 4 course FCAd, coopered back joined to separate neck. Developed, I think, due overcome size limitations of the tsouras.
Irish bouzouki = originally made by John Bailey as a repair of John Pearse's Greek bouzouki, which had had its back stove in. Since Bailey could not make a coopered back, he made a guitar-style back, retaining the original oval shape. Less depth than the round-back bouzouki, retains flat top.
Gibson's mandolin-family instruments were built to make a parallel to the violin-family instruments, during the mandolin craze of the 1920s, and are used in mandolin orchestras. These run up to the mando-bass, and are constructed on a violin pattern, with carved back and top, although many have the A-style soundhole, instead of the F-style f-holes.
There are still very good instruments made in this style, but not many Irish bouzoukis show any of the hallmarks of this sort of construction - in fact, I've never seen any that do. This is probably due both to the involved process of construction of a carved-top instrument and to the tone favored by the Irish bouzoukist, which is more that of a flat-top instrument.
The question in my mind, then, is whence the popularity of the modern "frying pan" style of mandolin/mandola/octave mandolin(=bouzouki)/mandocello? These existed, I believe, long before the development of the Irish bouzouki, but they became a standard construction (used by Mid-Missouri, Flatiron, and others) well after, and are now accepted (to some degree) in bluegrass and old-time music, where previously only a Gibson F was a "proper" instrument. So, were they patterened on the Irish bouzouki, or on the previous frying-pan models, or some combination?
I don't know, but I'd love to hear any informed speculation...
Intersting stuff Jon.
Check out Paul Shippey or Peter Abnetts instruments and you will see 'Irish bouzouki's' with carved tops or curved backs.
The Irish bouzouki is still closer to the mandocello family than the greek bouzouki family of instruments. At most i'd say it's an Irish mandocello or Irish mando. But it's far too small a difference from the mandocello to deserve a different name.
Ask yourself: does your Irish bouzouki most resemble A) a greek bouzouki, or B) a large mandolin
I think most of you will find that it's closer to the mandolin, this is what Gibson developed in the 1920's to form their family of mando instruments with varying sizes and neck length.
Sorry folks, but the fact remains that known to the lads in the 70's or not, Gibson invented the 'Irish bouzouki' half a century beforehand and called it a mandocello. They got there first!!!
Any discussion on who made the first Irish bouzouki the 70's is rendered pointless.
Priority is conceded, although if you think about it, there's plenty of prior art for Gibson's instruments, so I don't know why you choose that as your starting point. But certainly Gibson made an instrument of completely different construction and tuning some fifty years before the Irish bouzouki was conceived of.
However, I don't think that the mandocello was much of a consideration for the making of the latter instrument, and I certainly don't think that the octave mandolin (not, as others have pointed out, the mandocello) is in any way a stop on the path to the development of the Irish bouzouki. What you're seeing here is a case of convergent evolution: an American took an Italian folk instrument and redesigned it on the model of a violin, and then extended that to create a larger instrument of four courses and fifths tuning.
Three thousand miles away, and fifty years later, a luthier took a Greek instrument and rebuilt it using techniques borowed from the flat-top guitar, coming up with a four-course instrument sometimes tuned in fifths. There are similarities in the end products, but there's no reason to suppose that the Irish bouzouki descended from the Gibson octave mandolin, any more than one must suppose that a dolphin is some sort of copy of a sturgeon, just because both live in the water.
But if you're so insistent on this point, may I ask why you've chosen that particular handle for this board?
"If it looks like a duck, it's probably a duck!" Our first impression of most things are visual, and, to me, most of the instruments we call "Irish Bouzouki" look like the ancient instruments found in museums with the name "cittern", so I just refer to the instruments that I build, which very much resemble the the instrument of that name on display in the "Albert and Victoria Museum", as "citterns". Never mind that I screw around with string length and tuning. You can call yours whatever you want. Who cares?
it has always been presented to me that an irish bouzouki is very similar to/the same as an octave mandolin, and now if you say it is very similar to/the same as mandocello, i dont see the difference. no one has ever told me that it is entirely distinct, or that the name is entirely accurate. i was always told the name comes from the bouzouki because it was originally intended to be a modification of a bouzouki, and that in actuality the naming system is hazy.
so basically... what you're telling me is that the situation is exactly what i thought. what's wrong with the naming convention, then?
in the irish world, we call a certain type of flute "and irish flute." we also call the same flute an "8-key flute." technically it is more accurate to call it classical flute, but most p
it has always been presented to me that an irish bouzouki is very similar to/the same as an octave mandolin, and now if you say it is very similar to/the same as mandocello, i dont see the difference. no one has ever told me that it is entirely distinct, or that the name is entirely accurate. i was always told the name comes from the bouzouki because it was originally intended to be a modification of a bouzouki, and that in actuality the naming system is hazy.
so basically... what you're telling me is that the situation is exactly what i thought. what's wrong with the naming convention, then?
in the irish world, we call a certain type of flute "and irish flute." we also call the same flute an "8-key flute," this is misleading, because they do not all have 8 keys, nor did the antiques they are based on. technically it is more accurate to call it classical flute, but most people would think that was a silver flute. even more accurately, the flutes we play now are designed after flutes favored in england during the mid to late romantic era in england. at the time, they just pretty much called them flutes.
i think naming conventions like this are perfectly fine and normal in the world of tools and artifacts. think about it... what is a PC? do you own a mac, or a PC? well... technically a mac IS a PC... a PC is a personal computer. so, rather than say "do you own a macintosh PC or an ibm-compatible/x86-derivative computer running ms windows," we all stick to the inaccurate naming convention. i love discussions of this sort, but i think it is kind of pointless to assert that the colloquial expression should be changed.
the info on the parallel/separate development of what is essentially the same instrument is really cool, though, and i really like the mandocellos now that i have seen them.
as an aside, technically you do not have a computer in your house, but a microcomputer, as a microcomputer is run by a microprocessor. imagine asking someone "what sort of computer do you have?" and they replied, "i do not have a computer, i have a microcomputer."
and yes, as a concertina player, i have basically given up. "do you play the accordion?" "yes, i do."
Daiv - Mandocellos are, in fact, awesome, despite their tendency to be inaudible, hard to play, and unsuited to most session keys. Not to mention capo-resistant. I wound up with one, ended up stringing it like a bouzouki for a while, then I strung it single, cello tuned, and played Bach's suites on it. Sounded fantastic, if you happened to be sitting within two feet of the instrument.
>and yes, as a concertina player, i have basically given up. "do you play the accordion?" "yes, i do."
That's funny - playing the button box, I'm always asked about my concertina. Perhaps I should play one of them, too, to make it easy on the poor punters.
I watch the video of Andy and Donal playing together from back in the day and I don't care what the FECK you call them, but that was a tapestry of picking we need to be duplicating in 2009.
I would highly recommend that people consider playing an octave above them with a regular mandolin or below them with an 8 string adapted 12 string guitar.
My mother, who is Welsh does not live in Wales. She makes Welsh Cakes, and calls them 'Welsh Cakes' even though they are made in England.
In the early 80's I went to the Tate Liverpool not long after it's opening. In one of the galleries I came across a glass of water that had been placed on a glass shelf high on the wall. The title of the work is 'Oak Tree' and there is a text next to the Oak Tree explaining why it is no longer a glass of water:
I don't much care what they are called (I just say Mandola, and don't really care if some people nit pick).
But, the Irish zoak/big mando thingmy did evolve from the greek zouk. People found the greek zouks on holiday and eiother physically brought them back, or brought back the idea of a zouk. One of the physical zouks got its bowl broken and was replaced with a flatback. Tuning has continued to diversify and evolve.
An Irish zouk may look more like a mandocello or an olde cittern to some folks, but that isn't where its lineage can be traced. The Mandocello and irish zouk are analagous rather than homologous i.e. have evolved to look like each other rather than being rooted in the same lineage. (At least compared to how irish zouk/mandola and greakk zouk realted to one and other.
but as I said at the startI don't care what anyone choses to call the intsrument. Call it a mandocello if you want. I'll be calling it a mandola. Octave mandola and mandocello both strike me as silly in terms of tuning, but then so does the term I prefer If we must have a name based on the mando family, then octave mandoline would be most correct but that feels clumsy to me. So for me mandola it is.
I do think the Irish instrument has evolved from the Greek bouzouki sufficiently that it deserves a name of its own. But what?
It isn't a mandocello - the mandocello is tuned an octave below the mandola, the bouzouki an octave below the mandolin, they are used in very different ways, and besides, it is way to posh for ITM - if you're going to call it a mandocello, you're going to have to call your fiddle a violin.
Technically it probably ought to be a 'long scale octave mandolin', but that's a bit of a mouth full.
Personally I think we should just call it a zouk. Short and sweet, and it still pays tribute to its origins.
Well, I call mine a long-necked octave mandolin, as that most explains it to the public, then adding irish bouzouki, as the common name.
It's a bit like the Linnael classification versus the common name, also the whole thing illustrates convergent evolution - there was a need for an instrument of this sort, so it developed, over different times in different places, but ended up much the same despite the different paths. Yet they are not related.
I also see that Ozark are now offering an octave mandolin shaped like the Gibson F-model mandos, but obviously with a longer neck.
But........
........on the subject of repeated invention of the same instrument; can anyone tell me what the lady to the right of this picture, The Nine Living Muses, is playing ? http://www.mnwa-uk.org/preevents2008.html
It always tickles me how people love to argue the toss about what is the difference between a Cittern, a Bouzouki, Mandocello etc. From a makers point of view the main difference is scale length, and then number of strings and tuning. But what I generally make is an instrument with a curved back and a carved top.
Regardless of what folk call them, there are certain differences between an old style Gibson Mandocello and what I make which is in the Sobell tradition. The main difference is in the design and arching and thicknessing of the top. Now here is an example of two designs that do not bear expansion and contraction - let me explain-
The Gibson A model Mandolin is a superb instrument but sounds rather less impressive when blown upto Mandocello size. Likewise the Sobell style Cittern or Bouzouki is also rather superb but is less impressive when shrank down to Mandolin size. There are simple reasons for this:
The Gibson has a thick top modelled similar to a violin to resist the strings and the job of the few braces are to tune the instrument - to colour the voice. This seems to work very well on mandolin size and scale.
Sobell Style Cittern and Bouzouki have a flatter thinner top. The braces colour the sound but also support the top. Rather like a flat top guitar.
The result of these two styles are two very different voices, one very American the other rather more Europrean.
Ramblingpitchfork:
"Hell yeah, I can just see the average punter down our neck of the woods nodding at that and thanking us for clearing up the issue "
Well yes, if you play in Glasgow it's probably best to just call it a banjo like everyone else.
Some interesting points there lads. I do argree that they have evolved from different starting points to become similar in design. Far too similar if you ask me.
And I'd agree with the whole Irish flute thing. The tenor banjo is tuned CGda. When changed to the tuning GDae it becomes an 'Irish' Tenor banjo regardless if your playing jazz on it!!! How the hell is that!!!
Maybe if the lads originally came up with a better name than Irish Bouzouki it would be a little easier to stomach for me.
However, I'm gonna call my 25inch scale 'Irish bouzouki' a mandocello or mandola from now on, simply because of the fact it bears little resemblence to a bouzouki and a huge resemblence to its gibson brothers in America!!
Cheers for the interesting discussion lads and ladies.
I play a Joe foley myself, the third one I have owned, all by different makers. I prefer to call it an Octave mandolin myself, although most of my mates refer to it as a Bouzouki. The only thing I would never call it is a "Zouk"
"Zouk is a handy word when typing.
You could also try spelling it "bezuki" for a change.
Even 'Er indoors has trouble with the spelling, and started "bAzo....." before I corrected her.
As to the variations in construction between Gibson and the modern instruments, I reckon there's enough variety already, between pin bridges and floating bridges, between arch-top and flat-top, between pear-shaped bodies and guitar-shaped bodies.
Not to mention the variations each individual builder brings.
sure theres huge difference even in the construction from one Irish bouzouki to another, which is where I feel the mandocello fits in as a variety on it.
It's like the way you can have a massive amount of variety in guitars - arched top (sometimes backs), cut aways, different bracings, different sized bodies all with their own take on a guitar bodily shape.... but all in all they are all 'guitars'.
When you string one in DADGAD it doesn't then turn into an 'Irish hour glass bodied 6 string bouzouki' does it? no it's still a guitar.
All the variation between the Irish bouzouki's and indeed the mandocello thrown in there, are on a par with the many variations on the guitar that exist. So it is then my belief that it shouldn't require a name of Irish bouzouki(even though bouzouki's were the inspriation) when in existance was a amazingly close relative called mandocello.
jon--see, now that's funny that they call it a concertina. most people i meet cant pronounce the word, even though it's just a word they normally use with 3 letters on the end. i usually get something like "constantina" or something.
zouk--so are you saying that if someone bears little resemblance to their parents they should change their last name to fit a family they more resemble?
Missed this one........loads of info.........and Experts......................Joe Foley is just finishing my new ............what you call it.?????????.............BRIDGET sounds good to me .WTF.......Good research Zouk2003...........Think Mr Moynihan will be glad to be off the houk......
Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
It seems the whenever a discussion about the invention of the Irish bouzouki crops up everyone is quick to mention Johnny Moynihan, Andy Irvine, Donal Lunny, or Peter Abnetts's name.
But how can this be? the Irish bouzouki is almost identical to the flat back mandocello that's been about since at least the 1920's. It has same shape, similar tunings, and (give or take a fret or 2) has the same scale length.
Granted it may have minor differences, but altogether it is the the same instrument of the 1920's that Gibson mass produced as part of the mando family. The mandocello being around 25 inch in scale length. I mean, if I go and make an instrument with a fret longer than an Irish bouzouki, can I call it by a different name and claim I invented it? No... So give back your claim to inventing the Irish Bouzouki Mr Moynihan and the rest of you, and confess to everyone that they've been playing a mandocello all along!!!
I know some of you might go into the difference of tunings on the different mando related instruments, but it is not about that. It is simply about the shape, construction and size of the instrument and the fact that it has existed for a long time, whatever the tuning.
Next time someone even mentions the name 'Irish Bouzouki' please kindly point out that it must be a mandocello that they are talking about, and the confusion must lie with the claims made by some fraudulent folk musicans from the 70's.
Check out these mandocello vids and try and tell me that they're not playing a so called 'Irish bouzouki'. The instruments that these lads are playing are from at least 50years before Johnny Moynihans claim of creating an 'Irish Bouzouki'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAMe9pZwogY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0H457x9Qu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7DDi4atgHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZbWvT1hmh0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandocello
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Zouk2003
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Like that Steve Smith tune alot....
I dont really know where to start...or what to say....
It all comes down to opinion and scale length.
Your right in the sence that the Gibsons have been about for years, but I would add that in my own thoughts the bouzouki, or the "Irish bouzouki" that I and others play today did come from the likes of Lunny and Irvine designs in the late 60s- early 70s.
It was only then that the bouzouki came into Irish trad music, no one else was using the Gibson mandocello in ITM at that time that I am aware of.....
The tuning also takes a big part, but the scale length says it all...
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by seaniemcg
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
I asked my Foley and it said it was an Irish bouzouki, made in Ireland, by an Irishman.
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Any buyers on the bouzouki yet Sugarfoot?
I play a Cittern also, and some people say its not a Cittern, but a Blarge. A blarge in a ten string bouzouki scale length intrument, Not a Cittern......
I guess they all kind of come from the same family a that, but my bouzouki is far from a mandocello.....
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by seaniemcg
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
"instrument"
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by seaniemcg
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
The truth is that people continually re-invent the wheel.
I don't suppose that either Johnny Moynihan, Andy Irvine, or Donal Lunny were aware of the mandocello when they first started re-stringing Greek bouzoukis so they could tune them in 5ths and play them like tenor banjos.
And I don't believe they were aware of the bouzouki that John Bailey had built for John Pearse years previously with a flat-backed body much like a Portuguese guitarra.
If you want to try to eliminate Moynihan's name, he claims to be fed up with the celebrity, or notoriety, it has brought him.
The truth is that a small group of people saw that a variation on a common pattern of instrument could make a new, to them, instrument that could be very useful.
And the rest is history.
PS My 'Irish bouzouki' was built in Korea. What does that make it ?
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Not yet Seanie - plenty of interest though. Fingers crossed ; - )
Did you manage to sell yours?
Back to the thread, I guess it doesn't matter what you call it. Alec Finn plays a Rembetika bouzouki but there's no doubt about the way he's playing it . . .
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Who wants a hathaway with Foley parts?
zouknob, can you post a link to 'Moynihans claim of creating an 'Irish Bouzouki'.'?
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Guernsey Pete - I was interested in your comment that Mr Moynihan might not have been aware of John Bailey's bouzouki made for John Pearse - but I'm pretty sure I saw a John Bailey label inside Mr M's own flatback 'zouk back in October 1970 when he played Nottingham U. (He had it tuned GDAE when I saw it.)
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Jim Younger
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
On the documentary 'Folk Hibernia', Moynihan describes how he invented/created it.
Alec Finn does however play a real bouzouki, as it is the genuine greek instrument.
I think that tuning of the instrument doesn't give it its name, as I could get a guitar and tune it to any bizarre tuning - that doesn't call for me to rename a guitar as an 'Irish Guitar' because essentially it's still a guitar.
Likewise, if i was to have a guitar built with a neck two frets longer than the standard guitar - it would still be called a guitar(with a long neck).
And the country that an instrument is made in makes no difference to what it is. If it was made in england it'd be an English bouzouki then!
If they were aware of mandocello's or not, or if they were in Irish music or not, is beside the point.
The point is that they DID exist, and the 'Irish Bouzouki' is an incorrect (and quite poor) name for what is essentially a mandocello.
Seanie, can you say exactly how your instrument differs from a mandocello that would go outside the boundries of being tuned a little differently and being a fret or two longer?
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Zouk2003
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Surely a mandocello is tuned CGda, ie an octave below a mandola, an octave and a 5th below a mandolin ?
People are making and playing these now. No confusion with a 'zouk, of any nationality.
Also.....
Hey, Jim. Never seen you on this forum before.
How's the next novel coming along ? Is it a sequel or a one-off ?
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Also, there weren't many good luthiers known to the folk world in 1970 - it may well be that it was John Bailey who Johnny Moynihan turned to get his first flatback 'zouk.
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Again Pete, I can't see why tuning an instrument diffently gives it a different name. Your right about a mandocello being normally tuned in fifths CGda, and the so called 'Irish Bouzouki' is also tuned in fifths to GDae of with a dropped e to d making it GDad. Minor differences.
If I tune may four string banjo to GDad will that make it 'bouzouki banjo'? No, it'll still be a four string banjo just tuned to my own preference.
My whole point is basically that a flat back bouzouki is called a mandocello.
I'm from Ireland so this is not an attack at the instrument being claimed by the Irish. If anything it should be called an Irish mandocello (or Irish mando) if there was a need to differentiate it from it's rightful brother!
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Zouk2003
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
It's true that Gibson made a family of instruments patterned on the violin family, but modelled on the mandolin instead of the violin. These were made for the mandolin orchestra craze of the 1920s, and those instruments are still around.
However, the construction of the "irish bouzouki" is radically different from that of the Gibson instruments - flat top, not carved, different bracing, etc. Totally different, of course, from the Greek bouzouki as well (which is in turn completely different from the tsouras which preceded it - that's a wild instrument, and great fun to play!)
Roughly, I think the sequence goes like this:
tsouras = 3 course, DAd. one-piece bowl/neck (bowl is carved, not joined)
bouzouki = originally 3-course DAd, later 4 course FCAd, coopered back joined to separate neck. Developed, I think, due overcome size limitations of the tsouras.
Irish bouzouki = originally made by John Bailey as a repair of John Pearse's Greek bouzouki, which had had its back stove in. Since Bailey could not make a coopered back, he made a guitar-style back, retaining the original oval shape. Less depth than the round-back bouzouki, retains flat top.
Gibson's mandolin-family instruments were built to make a parallel to the violin-family instruments, during the mandolin craze of the 1920s, and are used in mandolin orchestras. These run up to the mando-bass, and are constructed on a violin pattern, with carved back and top, although many have the A-style soundhole, instead of the F-style f-holes.
There are still very good instruments made in this style, but not many Irish bouzoukis show any of the hallmarks of this sort of construction - in fact, I've never seen any that do. This is probably due both to the involved process of construction of a carved-top instrument and to the tone favored by the Irish bouzoukist, which is more that of a flat-top instrument.
The question in my mind, then, is whence the popularity of the modern "frying pan" style of mandolin/mandola/octave mandolin(=bouzouki)/mandocello? These existed, I believe, long before the development of the Irish bouzouki, but they became a standard construction (used by Mid-Missouri, Flatiron, and others) well after, and are now accepted (to some degree) in bluegrass and old-time music, where previously only a Gibson F was a "proper" instrument. So, were they patterened on the Irish bouzouki, or on the previous frying-pan models, or some combination?
I don't know, but I'd love to hear any informed speculation...
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Sorry, the tuning of the 4-course Greek bouzouki should read CFAd, the other makes no sense.
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Intersting stuff Jon.
Check out Paul Shippey or Peter Abnetts instruments and you will see 'Irish bouzouki's' with carved tops or curved backs.
The Irish bouzouki is still closer to the mandocello family than the greek bouzouki family of instruments. At most i'd say it's an Irish mandocello or Irish mando. But it's far too small a difference from the mandocello to deserve a different name.
Ask yourself: does your Irish bouzouki most resemble A) a greek bouzouki, or B) a large mandolin
I think most of you will find that it's closer to the mandolin, this is what Gibson developed in the 1920's to form their family of mando instruments with varying sizes and neck length.
Sorry folks, but the fact remains that known to the lads in the 70's or not, Gibson invented the 'Irish bouzouki' half a century beforehand and called it a mandocello. They got there first!!!
Any discussion on who made the first Irish bouzouki the 70's is rendered pointless.
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Zouk2003
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Priority is conceded, although if you think about it, there's plenty of prior art for Gibson's instruments, so I don't know why you choose that as your starting point. But certainly Gibson made an instrument of completely different construction and tuning some fifty years before the Irish bouzouki was conceived of.
However, I don't think that the mandocello was much of a consideration for the making of the latter instrument, and I certainly don't think that the octave mandolin (not, as others have pointed out, the mandocello) is in any way a stop on the path to the development of the Irish bouzouki. What you're seeing here is a case of convergent evolution: an American took an Italian folk instrument and redesigned it on the model of a violin, and then extended that to create a larger instrument of four courses and fifths tuning.
Three thousand miles away, and fifty years later, a luthier took a Greek instrument and rebuilt it using techniques borowed from the flat-top guitar, coming up with a four-course instrument sometimes tuned in fifths. There are similarities in the end products, but there's no reason to suppose that the Irish bouzouki descended from the Gibson octave mandolin, any more than one must suppose that a dolphin is some sort of copy of a sturgeon, just because both live in the water.
But if you're so insistent on this point, may I ask why you've chosen that particular handle for this board?
# Posted on June 14th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
"If it looks like a duck, it's probably a duck!" Our first impression of most things are visual, and, to me, most of the instruments we call "Irish Bouzouki" look like the ancient instruments found in museums with the name "cittern", so I just refer to the instruments that I build, which very much resemble the the instrument of that name on display in the "Albert and Victoria Museum", as "citterns". Never mind that I screw around with string length and tuning. You can call yours whatever you want. Who cares?
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by BurtDaBard
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
it has always been presented to me that an irish bouzouki is very similar to/the same as an octave mandolin, and now if you say it is very similar to/the same as mandocello, i dont see the difference. no one has ever told me that it is entirely distinct, or that the name is entirely accurate. i was always told the name comes from the bouzouki because it was originally intended to be a modification of a bouzouki, and that in actuality the naming system is hazy. so basically... what you're telling me is that the situation is exactly what i thought. what's wrong with the naming convention, then? in the irish world, we call a certain type of flute "and irish flute." we also call the same flute an "8-key flute." technically it is more accurate to call it classical flute, but most p
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by daiv
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
it has always been presented to me that an irish bouzouki is very similar to/the same as an octave mandolin, and now if you say it is very similar to/the same as mandocello, i dont see the difference. no one has ever told me that it is entirely distinct, or that the name is entirely accurate. i was always told the name comes from the bouzouki because it was originally intended to be a modification of a bouzouki, and that in actuality the naming system is hazy.
so basically... what you're telling me is that the situation is exactly what i thought. what's wrong with the naming convention, then?
in the irish world, we call a certain type of flute "and irish flute." we also call the same flute an "8-key flute," this is misleading, because they do not all have 8 keys, nor did the antiques they are based on. technically it is more accurate to call it classical flute, but most people would think that was a silver flute. even more accurately, the flutes we play now are designed after flutes favored in england during the mid to late romantic era in england. at the time, they just pretty much called them flutes.
i think naming conventions like this are perfectly fine and normal in the world of tools and artifacts. think about it... what is a PC? do you own a mac, or a PC? well... technically a mac IS a PC... a PC is a personal computer. so, rather than say "do you own a macintosh PC or an ibm-compatible/x86-derivative computer running ms windows," we all stick to the inaccurate naming convention. i love discussions of this sort, but i think it is kind of pointless to assert that the colloquial expression should be changed.
the info on the parallel/separate development of what is essentially the same instrument is really cool, though, and i really like the mandocellos now that i have seen them.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by daiv
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
as an aside, technically you do not have a computer in your house, but a microcomputer, as a microcomputer is run by a microprocessor. imagine asking someone "what sort of computer do you have?" and they replied, "i do not have a computer, i have a microcomputer."
and yes, as a concertina player, i have basically given up. "do you play the accordion?" "yes, i do."
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by daiv
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Daiv - Mandocellos are, in fact, awesome, despite their tendency to be inaudible, hard to play, and unsuited to most session keys. Not to mention capo-resistant. I wound up with one, ended up stringing it like a bouzouki for a while, then I strung it single, cello tuned, and played Bach's suites on it. Sounded fantastic, if you happened to be sitting within two feet of the instrument.
>and yes, as a concertina player, i have basically given up. "do you play the accordion?" "yes, i do."
That's funny - playing the button box, I'm always asked about my concertina. Perhaps I should play one of them, too, to make it easy on the poor punters.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
I watch the video of Andy and Donal playing together from back in the day and I don't care what the FECK you call them, but that was a tapestry of picking we need to be duplicating in 2009.
I would highly recommend that people consider playing an octave above them with a regular mandolin or below them with an 8 string adapted 12 string guitar.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Micheál
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
My mother, who is Welsh does not live in Wales. She makes Welsh Cakes, and calls them 'Welsh Cakes' even though they are made in England.
In the early 80's I went to the Tate Liverpool not long after it's opening. In one of the galleries I came across a glass of water that had been placed on a glass shelf high on the wall. The title of the work is 'Oak Tree' and there is a text next to the Oak Tree explaining why it is no longer a glass of water:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~ig206/oak_tree.html
So that makes all my instruments Irish Bouzouki's, because that's what they are, regardless of provenance, scale length or any other detail.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
I don't much care what they are called (I just say Mandola, and don't really care if some people nit pick).
If we must have a name based on the mando family, then octave mandoline would be most correct but that feels clumsy to me. So for me mandola it is.
But, the Irish zoak/big mando thingmy did evolve from the greek zouk. People found the greek zouks on holiday and eiother physically brought them back, or brought back the idea of a zouk. One of the physical zouks got its bowl broken and was replaced with a flatback. Tuning has continued to diversify and evolve.
An Irish zouk may look more like a mandocello or an olde cittern to some folks, but that isn't where its lineage can be traced. The Mandocello and irish zouk are analagous rather than homologous i.e. have evolved to look like each other rather than being rooted in the same lineage. (At least compared to how irish zouk/mandola and greakk zouk realted to one and other.
but as I said at the startI don't care what anyone choses to call the intsrument. Call it a mandocello if you want. I'll be calling it a mandola. Octave mandola and mandocello both strike me as silly in terms of tuning, but then so does the term I prefer
- Chris
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
I do think the Irish instrument has evolved from the Greek bouzouki sufficiently that it deserves a name of its own. But what?
It isn't a mandocello - the mandocello is tuned an octave below the mandola, the bouzouki an octave below the mandolin, they are used in very different ways, and besides, it is way to posh for ITM - if you're going to call it a mandocello, you're going to have to call your fiddle a violin.
Technically it probably ought to be a 'long scale octave mandolin', but that's a bit of a mouth full.
Personally I think we should just call it a zouk. Short and sweet, and it still pays tribute to its origins.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by skreech
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Well, I call mine a long-necked octave mandolin, as that most explains it to the public, then adding irish bouzouki, as the common name.
It's a bit like the Linnael classification versus the common name, also the whole thing illustrates convergent evolution - there was a need for an instrument of this sort, so it developed, over different times in different places, but ended up much the same despite the different paths. Yet they are not related.
I also see that Ozark are now offering an octave mandolin shaped like the Gibson F-model mandos, but obviously with a longer neck.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
But........
........on the subject of repeated invention of the same instrument; can anyone tell me what the lady to the right of this picture, The Nine Living Muses, is playing ?
http://www.mnwa-uk.org/preevents2008.html
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
This is the right link:
http://www.nmwa-uk.org/preevents2008.html
It's obviusly a Greek bouzouki, since they are in the Temple of Apollo.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
My house is a Temple of Apollo*, but its definately mostly banjo that gets played there
- Chris
* I just don't let on to people, though my wife has her suspicions
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Pete:
>Well, I call mine a long-necked octave mandolin, as that >most explains it to the public
Hell yeah, I can just see the average punter down our neck of the woods nodding at that and thanking us for clearing up the issue
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
It always tickles me how people love to argue the toss about what is the difference between a Cittern, a Bouzouki, Mandocello etc. From a makers point of view the main difference is scale length, and then number of strings and tuning. But what I generally make is an instrument with a curved back and a carved top.
Regardless of what folk call them, there are certain differences between an old style Gibson Mandocello and what I make which is in the Sobell tradition. The main difference is in the design and arching and thicknessing of the top. Now here is an example of two designs that do not bear expansion and contraction - let me explain-
The Gibson A model Mandolin is a superb instrument but sounds rather less impressive when blown upto Mandocello size. Likewise the Sobell style Cittern or Bouzouki is also rather superb but is less impressive when shrank down to Mandolin size. There are simple reasons for this:
The Gibson has a thick top modelled similar to a violin to resist the strings and the job of the few braces are to tune the instrument - to colour the voice. This seems to work very well on mandolin size and scale.
Sobell Style Cittern and Bouzouki have a flatter thinner top. The braces colour the sound but also support the top. Rather like a flat top guitar.
The result of these two styles are two very different voices, one very American the other rather more Europrean.
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by NKForster
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Ramblingpitchfork:
"Hell yeah, I can just see the average punter down our neck of the woods nodding at that and thanking us for clearing up the issue "
Well yes, if you play in Glasgow it's probably best to just call it a banjo like everyone else.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by skreech
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Some interesting points there lads. I do argree that they have evolved from different starting points to become similar in design. Far too similar if you ask me.
And I'd agree with the whole Irish flute thing. The tenor banjo is tuned CGda. When changed to the tuning GDae it becomes an 'Irish' Tenor banjo regardless if your playing jazz on it!!! How the hell is that!!!
Maybe if the lads originally came up with a better name than Irish Bouzouki it would be a little easier to stomach for me.
However, I'm gonna call my 25inch scale 'Irish bouzouki' a mandocello or mandola from now on, simply because of the fact it bears little resemblence to a bouzouki and a huge resemblence to its gibson brothers in America!!
Cheers for the interesting discussion lads and ladies.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Zouk2003
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
I play a Joe foley myself, the third one I have owned, all by different makers. I prefer to call it an Octave mandolin myself, although most of my mates refer to it as a Bouzouki. The only thing I would never call it is a "Zouk"
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by Backer
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
I'd like to thank NKForster for his contribution, which has clarified the original issue raised in the thread - and others too - for me.
# Posted on June 15th 2009 by DaveL35
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Backer, I don't think I ever *say* zouk, although it is a handy word when typing.
- chris
# Posted on June 16th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
"Zouk is a handy word when typing.
You could also try spelling it "bezuki" for a change.
Even 'Er indoors has trouble with the spelling, and started "bAzo....." before I corrected her.
As to the variations in construction between Gibson and the modern instruments, I reckon there's enough variety already, between pin bridges and floating bridges, between arch-top and flat-top, between pear-shaped bodies and guitar-shaped bodies.
Not to mention the variations each individual builder brings.
# Posted on June 16th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
sure theres huge difference even in the construction from one Irish bouzouki to another, which is where I feel the mandocello fits in as a variety on it.
It's like the way you can have a massive amount of variety in guitars - arched top (sometimes backs), cut aways, different bracings, different sized bodies all with their own take on a guitar bodily shape.... but all in all they are all 'guitars'.
When you string one in DADGAD it doesn't then turn into an 'Irish hour glass bodied 6 string bouzouki' does it? no it's still a guitar.
All the variation between the Irish bouzouki's and indeed the mandocello thrown in there, are on a par with the many variations on the guitar that exist. So it is then my belief that it shouldn't require a name of Irish bouzouki(even though bouzouki's were the inspriation) when in existance was a amazingly close relative called mandocello.
# Posted on June 16th 2009 by Zouk2003
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
jon--see, now that's funny that they call it a concertina. most people i meet cant pronounce the word, even though it's just a word they normally use with 3 letters on the end. i usually get something like "constantina" or something.
zouk--so are you saying that if someone bears little resemblance to their parents they should change their last name to fit a family they more resemble?
# Posted on June 17th 2009 by daiv
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
nigel--those are some awesome looking guitars. i love the clip of the guitar bouzouki. or should we be calling it a guitar mandocello? :P
# Posted on June 17th 2009 by daiv
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Folks, Relax. Where does this need to have everything explained come from? Call it whatever you like, have a pint and enjoy the music. Cheers.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Kerry Evan
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
Missed this one........loads of info.........and Experts...........
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Dphil
Re: Mandocello vs Irish Bouzouki
We should just call them Mandouki-o's. Now. That should solve the problem.
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by Piping Crow