I am wanting to buy a new octave mandolin (aka tenor mandola etc.). I play melody and want an instrument that will cut through in a noisy session as well as an OM can. I have tried a Hathway, which is a really lovely instrument to play, but I have only tried it in the shop. Without actually playing it in a session it's hard to tell how it will really come across. I am going to try a Fylde Touchstone, which I'm told projects more volume, but I gather when it comes to audibility in a session it's not just about volume, it's about the overtones and the profile of the sound.
Has anyone got any experience of these models, or any others they can recommend?
my son got a Shippey (Briston, UK) for his 18th birthday and was delighted with his. Loud enough, and beautiful workmanship.
He set out to buy a bazooki, took a good player with him to advise, and they played every stringed instrument in the shop. The Shippey won hands down. (The shop-assistant said these instruments only stop in the shop for a couple of days).
I recently bought a Johnson, which is a relatively cheap factory made ocatave mandolin. I spent a little over $300 USD
You can get more volume out of them by replacing the stock bridge they come with, but it is loud enough to play with fiddles, so I haven't bothered my cousin to make me a new bridge yet
I've really been enjoying mine, though. It plays well and has good intonation and a nice tone. Not bad at all for a factory made instrument. I've been a very satisfied customer.
In answer to the original question, the tenor mandola is a misnomer, and is NOT the same as the octave mandolin.
The tenor is tuned CGda from the bottom up, the octave GDae, an octave lower than mandolin.
Bouzouki shares the same tuning as the octave, but with a longer neck and often octave strings on the bass pairs.
The 'tenor " ( you don't need that word, it's just a mandola ) will have a shorter neck than the octave.
These are all relatively new instruments to the mandolin family, the older european mandola has a shorter scale still, not much longer than the mandolin but using heavier strings.
Guensey Pete, we've been through all this nomenclature stuff before. No need to again on this thread. Dogmatism to be seen on all sides. I included both terms because they are both in use and may aid future searches of the discussion threads.
Really, I don't think it's a volume arms race for most people. The main thing is - can you hear yourself? A problem with many of the mando instruments is that everyone else can hear you but you are often "flying deaf."
And this is the reason for the slippery slope to tenor banjo. Embrace it now, and save loads of money down the road. Someone on the site seems to have bought about thirty banjos in the last month and wants to sell them all now - there has to be a good deal in there somewhere.
Sorry, LissaG, I disagree.
But some people don't know what they are looking at or playing.
And, re the personal inaudibility; I believe some builders now put an extra soundhole on the top of the ribs, near the neck, so that some sound does go direct to the musician playing, and not rely on outward bound sound bouncing round the room and getting lost in the mix with everybody else. Seems like a good idea to me.
For me it's not just personal inaudibility - though that can be a problem too. You just know your instrument is not up to much when you try to start a tune and people are clearly struggling to catch what you're playing. And yes (trying to head off the wisecracks), I know 'bad workman; and all that, but seriously, I need a bit more projection to feel as though I'm contributing something.
No slippery slope to a banjo for me. I believe you have to be, among other things, psychologically suited to the instrument you play. The banjo is just too brash an instrument for me. BTW on the matter of psychological etc. suitability, I recommend Atarah Ben Tovim's book 'The Right Instrument for Your Child'. Not about trad instruments, but full of interesting observations.
Lissa, you are absolutely right. When your instrument is out gunned in the volume end, you don't get to use the dynamic range of the instrument. You have to play everything as hard as possible. its miserable to have to play in an ensamble like that
but don't discount the lure of the banjo. I picked up the octave mandolin for a couple weeks, listend to some Kevin Burke playing with a banjo player, and started pricing banjos!
While Pete is inclined to be pedantic about the names of mandolin-family instruments (and that is not necessarily a criticism, Pete), in this case he makes a very good point. Just about everyone understands the term 'tenor mandola' to mean something tuned CGDA.
Assuming that you mean octave mandolin (aka octave mandola aka short-scale bouzouki etc.), I'll comment on my expreience with Paul Hathway's instruments. I used to have one of these, and the most striking difference between his OM and others is that he uses a very short scale length. This means that you more or less have to use a wound 2nd (A) string, which tends to give the instrument a mellower tone and a different feel. Some players may like this - I didn't, so I sold it and got him to make a bouzouki for me instead.
Fylde instruments are a mixed bag - you need to try several before buying one. Some are very poor in terms of tone or volume, and some are very good indeed.
In any case - let's hear it for the tenor banjo - played sensitively, of course...
If you want to know how well a particular instrument projects in a session, it's not the instrument owners you need to ask - it's their session mates.
We have an octave mando player in our session who plays a Gibson Flatiron (no longer made, and well and truly "broken in") I have no problem hearing it whether playing melody or chords over ~ 3 fiddles, two flutes, guitar, accordian,and my own banjo.
I've brought my Weber Hyalite OM a couple of times, but given up because I couldn't hear myself (who knows, pehaps I was deafening everyone else?) I love to play it at home, or maybe with one or two other instruments, but it's the "brash" banjo I bring to sessions exclusively.
I tend to think Octave Mandolin, Mandola etc are a little too muddy for the massed pints n drams of a session in full sail, especially if there's a guitar or multi long scale members of the mando family and or lots of drinkers present, hence the inability to here yourself. Technique can help but usually results in a heavier style so not an ideal solution either.
The clash of frequencies in a similar range = mud, especially in the mids (read phase cancelation, similar problem to multi mic recording of a single sound source where the mics are at different distances in relation to the source causing signal drop out, in human hearing terms, the brains inability to differentiate between sources, in other words you or others can't hear the individual in high enough definition to identify the source from everything else despite the over all volume, also many instruments in this family are just crap at projection so this is a problem also) to play louder just makes things worse, especially in a noisy pub (many voices being of a similar range to the bottom and middle of that type of instrument) .
As said technique can make a difference but by and large for melody in a crowd it's an exceptional instrument or a snowball's chance in hell of being heard. Banjo? Go on, you know thats where your headed, get out the closet and get stuck right in (did I just say that??) Don't be put off by the many detractors.
Another option is as llig says:
"If it's contributing to the volume arm's race you're after, get a metal resonator one."
I know he speaks from experience regarding this type of "Metal" model although I've yet to see one in the longer scale.
Me I gave up on the idea after years of trying different instruments instead I got a banjo to add to my mandolin, both of which cut enough to allow a fair bit of dynamic range without battering the $hit out of it (the banjo doesn't have to be played at max volume and I usually keep it down until someone asks me to play louder, oh the fools). There are good instruments out there and you don't have to play in a crowd.
At our session there is more often than not only one chordal instrument and that's an OM. As far as I'm concerned it's by far the best instrument for backing tunes. Perfect volume and nice bare chords leaves lots of room for the tunes. So much better than a guitar.
Davy Stuart's Citterns are excellent and really loud. I assume his OMs would also be loud enough for a medium sized session of 6-8. Here is a link from Han Speek where several bouzouki's and citterns are compared. The Stuart compares favourably with the Sobell
I play an Oakwood mandolin and have tried their octave mandolin/mandolas and definitely recommend them. I also have a Bill Bussman carved top 5 course octave mandolin (from acousticmusic shop, Brighton). This sounds fantastic and the extra string means that any chords that you play have a really full sound compared with an ordinary mandolin. You may also wish to look at Richard Osborne's range. His hand-made instruments are excellent and any good luthier should be able to take into consideration the sound you want because even the choice of woods can dictate this.
I find that, despite the octave mandolin having the same tuning (GDAE ) as the mandolin, the "hand stretch" when playing tunes is slightly longer than on an ordinary mandolin. This can be a big problem if you have smaller hands, especially with fast tunes, so it will always be a personal choice in the end.
Anyway good luck with the search.
Thanks, everyone who posted. Some interesting points and plenty to ponder. Bloody marvellous this website!
In some ways I feel further away now from a proper decision (and I sense I'm being tugged against my will to Banjoland!), but I guess that when I do decide I will have made a better-informed decision.
Be careful who you buy from: I received mu octave mandola 12 months late with cheap maple fretboard rather than the ebony which was advertised. I was informed that it had to transported in a hard shell case because insurance company would not cover the instrument against damages. My Octave mandola arrived in a cardboard box packed with news papers to protect it. I was lucky as it was a mid priced instrument and music is a hobby.
NB: Maple isn't as durable as ebony or rosewood when using the round-wound strings.. Flat wound strings are mostly used with maple fingerboad electric guitars.......Fender, for example.
Do what I often do, take an OM and a banjo. If an accordion turns up....crack open the banjo case! If it's just fiddles, flutes, mandolins, etc., the OM will be fine. Or you could always fit a pick-up and take a small amp....only joking.
octave mandolin buying advice please
octave mandolin buying advice please
I am wanting to buy a new octave mandolin (aka tenor mandola etc.). I play melody and want an instrument that will cut through in a noisy session as well as an OM can. I have tried a Hathway, which is a really lovely instrument to play, but I have only tried it in the shop. Without actually playing it in a session it's hard to tell how it will really come across. I am going to try a Fylde Touchstone, which I'm told projects more volume, but I gather when it comes to audibility in a session it's not just about volume, it's about the overtones and the profile of the sound.
Has anyone got any experience of these models, or any others they can recommend?
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
If it's contributing to the volume arm's race you're after, get a metal resonator one.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
my son got a Shippey (Briston, UK) for his 18th birthday and was delighted with his. Loud enough, and beautiful workmanship.
He set out to buy a bazooki, took a good player with him to advise, and they played every stringed instrument in the shop. The Shippey won hands down. (The shop-assistant said these instruments only stop in the shop for a couple of days).
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by geoffwright
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
I recently bought a Johnson, which is a relatively cheap factory made ocatave mandolin. I spent a little over $300 USD
You can get more volume out of them by replacing the stock bridge they come with, but it is loud enough to play with fiddles, so I haven't bothered my cousin to make me a new bridge yet
I've really been enjoying mine, though. It plays well and has good intonation and a nice tone. Not bad at all for a factory made instrument. I've been a very satisfied customer.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
In answer to the original question, the tenor mandola is a misnomer, and is NOT the same as the octave mandolin.
The tenor is tuned CGda from the bottom up, the octave GDae, an octave lower than mandolin.
Bouzouki shares the same tuning as the octave, but with a longer neck and often octave strings on the bass pairs.
The 'tenor " ( you don't need that word, it's just a mandola ) will have a shorter neck than the octave.
These are all relatively new instruments to the mandolin family, the older european mandola has a shorter scale still, not much longer than the mandolin but using heavier strings.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Be careful, trying to be heard in a session is a slippery slope down to banjo
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Reverend
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Guensey Pete, we've been through all this nomenclature stuff before. No need to again on this thread. Dogmatism to be seen on all sides. I included both terms because they are both in use and may aid future searches of the discussion threads.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Really, I don't think it's a volume arms race for most people. The main thing is - can you hear yourself? A problem with many of the mando instruments is that everyone else can hear you but you are often "flying deaf."
And this is the reason for the slippery slope to tenor banjo. Embrace it now, and save loads of money down the road. Someone on the site seems to have bought about thirty banjos in the last month and wants to sell them all now - there has to be a good deal in there somewhere.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by grego
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Sorry, LissaG, I disagree.
But some people don't know what they are looking at or playing.
And, re the personal inaudibility; I believe some builders now put an extra soundhole on the top of the ribs, near the neck, so that some sound does go direct to the musician playing, and not rely on outward bound sound bouncing round the room and getting lost in the mix with everybody else. Seems like a good idea to me.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
For me it's not just personal inaudibility - though that can be a problem too. You just know your instrument is not up to much when you try to start a tune and people are clearly struggling to catch what you're playing. And yes (trying to head off the wisecracks), I know 'bad workman; and all that, but seriously, I need a bit more projection to feel as though I'm contributing something.
No slippery slope to a banjo for me. I believe you have to be, among other things, psychologically suited to the instrument you play. The banjo is just too brash an instrument for me. BTW on the matter of psychological etc. suitability, I recommend Atarah Ben Tovim's book 'The Right Instrument for Your Child'. Not about trad instruments, but full of interesting observations.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Lissa, you are absolutely right. When your instrument is out gunned in the volume end, you don't get to use the dynamic range of the instrument. You have to play everything as hard as possible. its miserable to have to play in an ensamble like that
but don't discount the lure of the banjo. I picked up the octave mandolin for a couple weeks, listend to some Kevin Burke playing with a banjo player, and started pricing banjos!
...and it could happen to you!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Yeah, banjo doesn't have to be "brash." All depends on how you play it. John Carty plays a lovely lullaby on banjo.....
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
A banjo lullaby?
I live in Appalachia, and I still find that hard to believe!
the only time I ever saw anybody sleep through a banjo there was an empty jug on the ground next to them
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Oh, dear. I think I'm psychologically suited to the banjo - after all, I play it all the time.
Pass me the jug, Nate...
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by grego
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
lissagriffin,
While Pete is inclined to be pedantic about the names of mandolin-family instruments (and that is not necessarily a criticism, Pete), in this case he makes a very good point. Just about everyone understands the term 'tenor mandola' to mean something tuned CGDA.
Assuming that you mean octave mandolin (aka octave mandola aka short-scale bouzouki etc.), I'll comment on my expreience with Paul Hathway's instruments. I used to have one of these, and the most striking difference between his OM and others is that he uses a very short scale length. This means that you more or less have to use a wound 2nd (A) string, which tends to give the instrument a mellower tone and a different feel. Some players may like this - I didn't, so I sold it and got him to make a bouzouki for me instead.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by DaveL35
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Fylde instruments are a mixed bag - you need to try several before buying one. Some are very poor in terms of tone or volume, and some are very good indeed.
In any case - let's hear it for the tenor banjo - played sensitively, of course...
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Will Fly
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
I play an Oakwood Octave Mandola.
http://www.oakwoodinstruments.co.uk/four/mandolas/mola.htm
Unfortunately, for you, it's the only one I've ever owned or played at length, so I'm sorry but I couldn't judge it fairly, against any others.
Like most instruments, it may come down to how much you are willing, or able, to spend.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
If you want to know how well a particular instrument projects in a session, it's not the instrument owners you need to ask - it's their session mates.
We have an octave mando player in our session who plays a Gibson Flatiron (no longer made, and well and truly "broken in") I have no problem hearing it whether playing melody or chords over ~ 3 fiddles, two flutes, guitar, accordian,and my own banjo.
I've brought my Weber Hyalite OM a couple of times, but given up because I couldn't hear myself (who knows, pehaps I was deafening everyone else?) I love to play it at home, or maybe with one or two other instruments, but it's the "brash" banjo I bring to sessions exclusively.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by grego
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
If you are playing melody, get a banjo. If chords, an Octave mandola, as distinct from a tenor one will do the job nicely.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
I tend to think Octave Mandolin, Mandola etc are a little too muddy for the massed pints n drams of a session in full sail, especially if there's a guitar or multi long scale members of the mando family and or lots of drinkers present, hence the inability to here yourself. Technique can help but usually results in a heavier style so not an ideal solution either.
The clash of frequencies in a similar range = mud, especially in the mids (read phase cancelation, similar problem to multi mic recording of a single sound source where the mics are at different distances in relation to the source causing signal drop out, in human hearing terms, the brains inability to differentiate between sources, in other words you or others can't hear the individual in high enough definition to identify the source from everything else despite the over all volume, also many instruments in this family are just crap at projection so this is a problem also) to play louder just makes things worse, especially in a noisy pub (many voices being of a similar range to the bottom and middle of that type of instrument) .
As said technique can make a difference but by and large for melody in a crowd it's an exceptional instrument or a snowball's chance in hell of being heard. Banjo? Go on, you know thats where your headed, get out the closet and get stuck right in (did I just say that??) Don't be put off by the many detractors.
Another option is as llig says:
"If it's contributing to the volume arm's race you're after, get a metal resonator one."
I know he speaks from experience regarding this type of "Metal" model although I've yet to see one in the longer scale.
Me I gave up on the idea after years of trying different instruments instead I got a banjo to add to my mandolin, both of which cut enough to allow a fair bit of dynamic range without battering the $hit out of it (the banjo doesn't have to be played at max volume and I usually keep it down until someone asks me to play louder, oh the fools). There are good instruments out there and you don't have to play in a crowd.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
At our session there is more often than not only one chordal instrument and that's an OM. As far as I'm concerned it's by far the best instrument for backing tunes. Perfect volume and nice bare chords leaves lots of room for the tunes. So much better than a guitar.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Davy Stuart's Citterns are excellent and really loud. I assume his OMs would also be loud enough for a medium sized session of 6-8. Here is a link from Han Speek where several bouzouki's and citterns are compared. The Stuart compares favourably with the Sobell
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/bouzouki/session.html
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by cabers
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
I play an Oakwood mandolin and have tried their octave mandolin/mandolas and definitely recommend them. I also have a Bill Bussman carved top 5 course octave mandolin (from acousticmusic shop, Brighton). This sounds fantastic and the extra string means that any chords that you play have a really full sound compared with an ordinary mandolin. You may also wish to look at Richard Osborne's range. His hand-made instruments are excellent and any good luthier should be able to take into consideration the sound you want because even the choice of woods can dictate this.
I find that, despite the octave mandolin having the same tuning (GDAE ) as the mandolin, the "hand stretch" when playing tunes is slightly longer than on an ordinary mandolin. This can be a big problem if you have smaller hands, especially with fast tunes, so it will always be a personal choice in the end.
Anyway good luck with the search.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Mando Deb
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Thanks, everyone who posted. Some interesting points and plenty to ponder. Bloody marvellous this website!
In some ways I feel further away now from a proper decision (and I sense I'm being tugged against my will to Banjoland!), but I guess that when I do decide I will have made a better-informed decision.
Thanks again to all. Slainte.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
" I sense I'm being tugged against my will to Banjoland!"
here in Pennsylvania, that is a Federal crime
you have to cross state lines to take someone against their will to Banjoland, or as we sometimes call it, "Kentucky"
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Lissa, here's Banjoland:
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_232_3_brona_graham_on_banjo/
Not so bad, really - is it? (And that's not mandatory dress code fo B'land, by the way.)
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by grego
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Thanks, greg. Banjoland. Great place to visit as a sightseer (or should that be hearinghearer?) - I just can't see myself settling there to live.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Johnson just came out with a deluxe model of their octave mandolin and bouzouki with a deeper box, deeper voice, more bark and more growl.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Micheál
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Be careful who you buy from: I received mu octave mandola 12 months late with cheap maple fretboard rather than the ebony which was advertised. I was informed that it had to transported in a hard shell case because insurance company would not cover the instrument against damages. My Octave mandola arrived in a cardboard box packed with news papers to protect it. I was lucky as it was a mid priced instrument and music is a hobby.
NB: Maple isn't as durable as ebony or rosewood when using the round-wound strings.. Flat wound strings are mostly used with maple fingerboad electric guitars.......Fender, for example.
# Posted on January 31st 2010 by O'Riabhaigh
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Is there a g distintive difference in tone between an "F" type Octave Mandolin and the "A" or Teardrop?
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by O'Riabhaigh
Re: octave mandolin buying advice please
Do what I often do, take an OM and a banjo. If an accordion turns up....crack open the banjo case! If it's just fiddles, flutes, mandolins, etc., the OM will be fine. Or you could always fit a pick-up and take a small amp....only joking.
# Posted on January 16th 2011 by vanman