Anyway, it's kind of ironic, don't you think, when you look at how rich & extensive the Traditional Music of Scotland & Ireland is today, that we have so little material to work on, from way back when.
Especially when you think that some other European countries may perhaps have less now, than they had back then!
Also, it got me wondering if anyone else here, on the forum, actually plays these ancient tunes?
I can't help with sources, I don't know of anything from that period that is specifically Scottish, but I suspect that much of the secular music from the period has survived into the modern - look for essentially pentatonic single octave tunes in morris and French dance collections and you won't be far wrong. 'Encyclopaedia Blowzabellica' is a good source if you can find a copy.
BTW. If you are going for authenticity, your gurdy player should take his trompette off - they didn't appear until the renaissance.
We play more Renaissance than Medieval music. A lot we get from recordings and palying with people. There are manyf tune collections out there, of varying qualities - try your local university library, for starters, or the easy step of searching for tune collections with the SCA (society for creative anachronism) online. Not all these are good, but you'll figure out which ones are pretty quickly.
Excellent use of a Sunday, Ptarmi- it sounds very French.
If that's the kind of thing you are looking for, there is an anthology of traditional French music, from the troubadours to C19 (words and music), with accompanying 14 CD's.
["Anthologie de la Chanson Francaise Traditionnelle" (Marc Robine), published by Albin Michel, 1994 (ISBN 2-226-07479-1).]
The English and Scottish Reformations, together with the c16 English invasions of Scotland and the British c16-17 conquest of Ireland, would have gutted written records and traditions of Mediaeval music at the higher end (art music, church music). Some has been retrieved, but I imagine this is why Mediaeval music has a fairly low profile in the UK and (as far as I know ) Ireland. In the UK I think the tradition was pretty well broken - though more knowledgeable people may well say I'm wrong here.
Ptarmi, thansk so much for putting this up. I'm listening to it in a heatwave too. Lovely stuff. Is the harp wire strung or something else (it sounds like it's not wire but tricky to tell). A brighter sound would have really cut through the ensemble - but then again, I love this period of music and the brightness of the instrumental sounds.
Nice clip Mr. P! I have friends that do the whole Renaissance fair band thing. Not my cup of tea. I always end up talking the blacksmith about making swords at those things. Then I talk to the wizard about some spells. Then I roll a d20, beat up some goblins, loot the dungeon and save the princess. By the time I'm done, the music's over.
Aye Fiddler, I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but then of course nothing is, not even ITM.
If we're honest, most folks out there are actually bored witless by the endless repetition of the same rhythm, hour after hour & the dull lack of variety, when they first encounter an Irish Trad Session in a pub & many never ever wish to repeat the experience.
I know if I had a £1 for every time someone new to ITM has asked why the musicians just play the same old tune all night long, I'd be a very wealthy man.
So it is with most things.
For example, for me, the most mind-numbingly boring thing on the planet is watching football on TV ... I'd far rather whoop it up, watching paint dry.
Skreech, aye we do go for a bit of authenticity, but also enjoy taking variety of instruments along to those kind of events, to better be able to demonstrate the development of some of the instruments we use. So, for example, Sam wasn't actually playing a Hurdy Gurdy in that scene, although he had one lying in front of him. He was playing his Symphony & as I'm sure you know, he can easily click that on or off mid tune. For the same reasons, I usually take along a Violin, a Viol & a Memling Fiddle. I also take my Hammered Dulcimer, plus a Cimbala { not having a real Plucked Psaltery }, but I do take a Bowed Psaltery.
Also Mark, that day we had Gothic, Wire Strung, Brass Strung & Nylon Strung harps with us { well, gut is a bit expensive }. However, on those tunes, that was a Nylon strung Harp.
Oh yes Skreech, of course I love loads of that wonderful French Music, they have such wonderful tunes over there, once you get in on the rhythms, they're hard to resist. Just like the hypnotic quality of much of the Breton music.
Aye reenactor, we play a wide variety too, it just depends what the event or function organizers are looking for. When you arrive on site at 8.30am & play till 5pm, variety comes in very handy!
P-K thanks for the Anthologie tip. It sounds like something I should have .. Ta!
Och Nicholas, that sounds just like the sort of thing those bl@@dy interfering Holy Joes would do.
A bit like their << NO >> <<Nae>> <<Never>> to anyone having Sex standing up, in case it led on to Dancing!
I'm confused by the gurdy/symphony reference - the symphony was a very simple diatonic instrument, with a single chantrelle, one or two drones, and definitely no trompette.
I know Chris Allen (and probably other modern makers) offer a 'symphony' which does have a trompette, but isn't really a symphony, just a very basic gurdy.
But who cares? It doesn't sound out of place, so leave it in! When you go back that far authenticity is purely subjective.
Fair play Dick for bringing back some old music.
Keep at it, though I do catch Llig's concern.
Bertha & Rusty are a wee bit more interesting. ;)
Cheers!
Random, I can see how these simple { by today's standards } old tunes wouldn't exactly appeal to the 'Pyromaniacs of ITM', those folks who just revel in showing off all their crans, cuts, rolls, & triplets, before, after, under & over each note, which can & very often do, to my ears at least, disguise the bonny wee tune that is lurking underneath all that ostentatious guff!
So of course, if the simple charm of these early tunes escapes the listener, then clearly that music is not for them.
I suppose it's a bit like the Bluegrass & Old Time Music debate.
Those Bluegrass guys just don't like the Old Time sessions, cause of course they don't get to 'strut their funky stuff' off, in front of everyone.
Right or wrong, watching both groups of those musicians, it would appear that the Old Time guys love the tunes, while the Bluegrass guys ............... love themselves!
Stay inside the cool pub sipping pints and play music that's not so twee. But that's just me.
The nice thing about renn fairs is how easy they are to avoid. Not like those insidious sessions that might catch you unawares as you innocently wander into any ol' pub. Yes, best to keep the medieval music penned up and charge admission....
Thank you for the youtube samples. I enjoyed them. My source for this music is a book and CD, "Medieval Music for Violin," by ADG Productions, in Lawndale, CA. Web site:
www.adgproductions.com They have other books and recordings in this series. I once attended a Swedish concert, "Krook." (Music of drummers, wedding musicians and enchanted women.) The tunes from 1300-1500's, were spellbinding.
Dick, I didn't find those tune boring because they had no pyrotechnics. I found them boring because they were dull. I'm not commenting on the playing, just the tunes.
LOL, cuch, it's just llig's opinion that those tunes are dull.
I thought they were dull, myself. Not the worst of that sort of stuff I've ever heard, but not as refreshing (to me) as tunes the likes of Dr. Gilbert's, say, or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie, or Fly in the Pint.
Those medieval tunes lacked a number of things that I enjoy in most Irish trad tunes. An unusual juxtaposition of intervals, unexpected or counterintuitive twists, harmonic or modal shifts, sinuous phrases longer than a measure, etc. Too often, ren fair music and the like sounds to me utterly predictable and banal.
Dr. Gilbert's or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie in those clothes, in that setting, at that event!!!
You find me a C15th tune that is as exciting as Dr. Gilbert's or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie & I'll happily play it!
That, in my opinion, is where shows like Ye Olde banquets at places like Bunratty usually go wrong!
As well as playing loads of far too modern funky tunes, their costumes are usually far too hollywood in style, so the whole thing is about as believable as films like The Black Night!
They should leave all that sort of crap kitsch to Disneyland.
Scottish period musician Simon Chadwick put it this way, when describing how to make Medieval tunes sound more realistic.
He recommended stripping away all the distinctive 18th century flute and fiddle idiom, and inserting lashings of medieval harp idiom instead, which he believes can often produce a convincing 'reconstruction' of a tune's medieval form.
In other words, if we were to play Dr. Gilbert's, or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie in those clothes, in that setting, at such an event, folks would think we were doing a bad pi$$ take of Monty Python's Holy Grail!
Opinion is fine, and I notice, Will, that when you express one, you tend to add qualifiers like “to me,” which makes a difference. Because my point to Michael was that his finding it dull doesn’t mean it IS dull.
Both of you provide a good explanation, you here and Michael in another thread, for what you love about Irish music, and presumably neither of you find those characteristics in Ptarmigan’s ptunes. But that doesn’t they aren’t there; just that you don’t find them. Nor does it mean that Ptarmigan’s ptunes don’t have something entirely different going for them, something that neither you nor Michael particularly care for.
That’s fine, of course, but that’s not about the music, it’s about your tastes in it. It seems to me that it’s wise to add qualifiers like “to me” when dismissing someone else’s work. It seems wiser still, I think, to put the onus where it belongs — on the viewer, not the thing viewed. “I can’t relate to that.” Or “I don’t know how to listen to that.” Or even “I can’t really understand the appeal of that.”
You’re responding to my post, and that’s different, but I really question Michael’s motives for going out of his way to dimiss the stuff: What’s he trying to do?
It’s a little like an avid gamer saying he finds books boring. In a way, I can understand that, because books certainly lack the thing that gamers are looking for, but the gamer has no business imposing his expectations for games on the world of books. And why would a gamer walk into a conversation among book lovers and announce that books are dull?
I’ve heard jazzers do that with Irish music. It all sounds alike, right? Don’t you find that offensive, even in a small way?
In some ways, I agree with you about the predictability of the medieval music. Still, remember those people were trying to find their way in a very early setting. They had very primitive instruments and a very primitive theoretical knowledge. Some would say that’s part of the charm of the music of the era. Those people may even argue that Irish tunes are too clever, too glib in comparison with the more forthright medieval stuff. But those people would get under my skin, too.
Well I come at this sort of thing from a background reading medieval English literature (in the language of the day), and I think the literature and the music had a lot in common. So in my critique above, I tried to stay "close to the text."
It does help to include qualifiers, but it's also tempting to use shorthand, especially since all anyone can post on here is their opinion. Seems redundant to have to spell that out every time. (But that's just my opinion. )
Ptarmy, I didn't mean to suggest playing more modern tunes in the setting and clothes you were in. That would be high sillydom. I just personally don't understand the attraction of spending an afternoon dressed in period clothes playing period music. Any more than I understand the pretense some people make of wearing tweed walking caps and wool sweaters when they pay at an Irish session, despite living in, say, California or Montana. Half the time, the caps are made in China.
Nonetheless, I can readily see the enjoyment Ptarmy gets out of whatever music he plays, and that's what counts, eh?
cuchulain54:
"In some ways, I agree with you about the predictability of the medieval music. Still, remember those people were trying to find their way in a very early setting. They had very primitive instruments and a very primitive theoretical knowledge."
To be honest, I think our whole conception of early music is wrong. The elements of music that made people tap their feet or get up and dance 600 years ago would be exactly the same as they are today. And certainly the instruments weren't primative - how many guitarists do you know who move their frets when they change key so that they don't have to make do with equal temperament? Yet that was common practice amongst lutenists, sometime even mid-tune. Certainly by the early 17th century, (when we start getting detailed lute tabliture) some of the music is very intricate. That didn't happen overnight, and must have built up through the medieval period.
I think the real problem with our conception of medieval music come from the early reconstructions. The first people to try to recreate early music were a bunch of academics, playing instruments they were unfamiliar with, and working with only 'the dots' to guide them. The dots from that period are very, very sketchy. If you just play what is written the music is bland and boring. But that is how those early recreators played it - as classically trained academics, they played what was written. And they said 'This is medieval music.' And from that point on that is how everyone else has recreated medieval music, because it is what people expect.
But if you pick those tunes up and run with them, forget that they are supposed to be 'medieval', just play them as you would any other tune, you'll find you can make them as interesting as any other tune. And that, I'm sure, is much closer to how medieval musicians would have played them than any deliberate recreation.
I'm pretty sure that there is a lot more continuity than people realise, and that a lot of tunes that are still played today actually date back to that period, it's just that there is no written record to prove it.
You're missing my point, Will. Shorthand or no, it was gratuitous and pointless. At least that's the way I saw it, until he added the bit about people playing to preconceptions instead of playing the music.
Which goes a bit toward skreetch's interesting point. So, skreech, do you think the originals might have rocked out a bit on that stuff? You might be right that the academic recreators dulled it up, but I think we have to be equally careful not to impose our modern sensibilities on those old-timers. A lot has changed, and it takes more to stir us nowadays, don't you think? Our instruments are bigger, louder and brighter, we work with a higher standard pitch, our arrangements are more bombastic -- are we really qualified to determine what was dull, bland and boring to people of the middle ages?
No, I see your point, cuch. I'm just resigned to llig's tone.
To be fair, though, isn't Ptarmy asking for a bit of slagging by posting this clip on this site? I mean, folks here have been poking fun at the ren fair crowd nearly since the mustard board's inception....
Ptarmy's clip is akin to proudly posting this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1gPT6pTTB8) here, right? I mean, if you were one of the dancers looking for feedback and info about where to find more of this sort of thing, and you posted it to a site about Irish trad sessions.
Just a quick comment before Will's next YouTube link.
Ptarmigan, I was glad to see (& hear) some of the clips on your YouTube page. I miss the audio clips from SoundLantern.
It's good to know you're still recording, just on a different site.
& of course there are those outdoor romps with Rusty & Bertha.
Hey, don't worry guys, if I didn't have a very thick skin & a rather broad back to handle honest opinions, plus the inevitable load of slagging I know I'm going to get on this site, I would never have posted the link.
I know only too well that many folks who post here, have a very myopic view when it comes to music. That's fine, got forbid that we would all have the same viewpoint!
However, others here are more like myself & not only listen to, but also play, a wide variety of music. So much as I love Irish Music, I think my brain would go numb & wilt if I listened to only Trad Irish all day & all night. So I'm quite happy to take the flack, in order to reach those who are a bit more open to something just a wee bit different.
Also, I left the school yard many, many years ago, so I'm well past the "my music's better than your music .... na na ne na na" stage too.
However, what you guys with your huge salaries, pension plans, foreign holidays & middle class life styles etc etc perhaps don't appreciate, is that anyone who is actually trying to make a living from Traditional Music today, has to be prepared to be very diverse. Especially when you are, like me, a home bird who has no desire to be on tour all the time.
That said, if I didn't find these ancient tunes fascinating, I wouldn't be playing them.
Yes, many of them are very boring to listen to, but some are great fun to play. A lot of fun can also be had from learning how to play the strange instruments that were used back then. True, most of the enthusiasts who get involved in these events are rather eccentric, but boys a dear are they interesting. Call me crazy, but I find that a day in costume with some of those guys is a lot more fun, than spending a day with a load of stuffed shirt, po-faced academics.
I certainly don't feel I have to apologize to anyone here for finding this kind of music fascinating.
Anyway, where does this notion come from, that complicated tunes and music must automatically be better music?
It's, no doubt, part of the same school of nonsense here, that says that Polkas & Slides are all crap tunes, because they're not as 'complicated' as the Big Reels! .... I just don't get that!
Still, bring it on guys.
It must make a change, from picking on Bodhran players!
Yes, I do think they would have rocked! I agree that we must be wary of imposing our own values on the music, but I am not convinced that our values are that much different to those of the middle ages. Certainly if you look at ethnic music today, the music of more primative cultures is anything but 'staid and boring'.
For me, trying to recreate medieval music from manscript is a non-starter - you couldn't recreate today's music from a pile of hymn books and a handful of opera scores, and that is essentially all we have from the medieval. Perhaps a better place to look would be North Africa and the Mediterranian coast - this is where many of the instruments (and presumably the music with them) originated, and since the instruments remain essentially unchanged to this day, it seems reasonable to assume that the music does too.
With regard to the instruments, yes, we've upped pitch and string tension to get more volume, but they had another approach to the problem - they used a much wider range of instruments. Where we do pretty much everything with the same handful of instruments, they had different instruments for different purposes - gut strung lutes and harps and various bowed instruments for song accompaniment, pipe and tabor, bagpipes, shawms and various wire strung guitar type instruments for dancing. One of the most important factors (and one that is often overlooked) is to make sure you are using an authentic combination of instruments, and not just throwing instruments together at random because they are all 'medieval'.
"One of the most important factors (and one that is often overlooked) is to make sure you are using an authentic combination of instruments, and not just throwing instruments together at random because they are all 'medieval'."
Aye skreech, you must mean a bit like, playing Irish Traditional Music with things like Bouzouki, G Banjo, Upright Bass, Viola, etc etc
hi, thanks for posting it.
I really enjoy renaissance fairs and similar events and play some of the tunes on the video myself. . I wish i had time and money to get one of those medieval fiddles and learn to play it.
there's probably a lot of people out there who are into ITM as well as other types of traditional/old music.
I don't think they were boring tunes. Just as a suggestion, not criticism: The bagpipe player could still do with some more ornamentation and maybe variations in rhythm, and it would add some interest to the tunes.
Ptarmigan,
Yes, I often smile at the 'traditional' (cough) instruments used in ITM. I suppose the difference is that it is a living tradition, and is still evolving. As long as the spirit of the music is preserved it's OK, we are not trying to exactly replicate what our forebears played.
I remember Alfred Brendel being asked why he didn't play his mozart piano music on the kind of instrument the music was composed on. His answer could not have been more straight forward, "It sounds better on a modern piano."
Aye skreech, I think it's worth bearing in mind too, that no matter how hard we try, we can never "exactly replicate what our forebears played".
However, I reckon we can at least make an effort in that direction e.g. by using replica instruments of the time, rather than go for the soft option of playing modern instruments, just because they work better, are easier to tune & maintain & also do our best to shed some of the modern frills in the music.
So I see nothing in wrong in playing a very simple & less ornamented version of the tunes I come across.
Don't worry, poor old Grego, if my Lotto ticket comes up this week, I'll see you are well looked after!
Mini, you may well be right. I hadn't actually heard either of those tunes until about 20 mins before I switched on Mr Flip Video, so I was only tickling around the edges of the 1st one, or should I say playing a very bare bones version on my H D.
As for the Pipers ornamentation, you may well be right but I'm afraid I have little or no knowledge of modern Piping ornamentation, never mind what was more likely to have been played, way back then, so I just can't judge. I also have no idea how long Ferris has been playing those tunes, so she may only be getting to grips with them herself. However, I do know that Sam only acquired that Symphonie a few weeks ago & was getting hand cramps all day, from simply not being used to playing it, so I'm sure his version was pretty basic, for good reason.
Of course, the fact is, I certainly didn't post that video in order for us to show off how we were all brilliant medieval musicians, I just thought some folks here might be interested in seeing & hearing something just a wee bit different & we might perhaps hook up with a few more enthusiasts of that sort of carry on & maybe get a few more tips on sources of good tunes.
Of course, I also know that most folks here wouldn't be seen dead playing music in frilly costumes, at least not out in public anyway!
Although, when it comes to the private habits of many prominent members here, well let's just say .............. I've heard stories!
I also understand that some photographic evidence is in the post!
Not sure I’ve ever heard Mozart on the harpsichord (his instrument would have been the fortepiano, wouldn't it?), but I’d like to. I never paid close attention to Mozart or Haydn symphonies and concertos until I heard them on “original instruments.” It was a minor revelation for me. I’m not sure Franz or Wolfie would prefer the modern instruments.
Screech, I've never heard that those tied-on frets were for correcting innotation mid-stream. Or were they a sort of medieval whammy bar? To me that seems upside-down. I would believe that the tied-on frets PERMITTED adjustment, but I suspect that the tied-on frets strongly NECESSITATED it. My experience with the luit is limited, to be sure, but I found the tied-on frets, while maybe charmingly authentic, pretty much a pain in the butt.
I played around with a lute many years ago and it seemed to me that the frets were held firmly in place, maybe even glued. If they had been loose enough to slide around quickly, I think it would have been too easy to push a fret out of position. And wouldn't the fret need to be tight against the fingerboard in order to get a reliably clean, solid tone?
Maybe, but I've never played a lute on which the frets weren't easily pushed around. In fact, I regularly had to lift them from their proper position, slide them upward (the neck was tapered), let them relax for a just a sec and then slide them back down to about where they were comfortably snug on the neck, which was close to their proper placement. Then, I'd have to check the intonation of the fret placement (by playing a scale on a high course and then one on a low course), and only then could I hope to tune the strings to each other. It was a major bother. The old joke about banjo players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? It's absolutely true of lute players. Accept those wizards screech is talking about, who would mess with intonation on the fly. I'd like to see that.
As far as the need for tightness against the fingerboard to get a reliably clean, solid tone -- well, that, oddly enough, was never that much of a problem, for me. Maybe the extremely soft action of the strings helped.
Hey Ptarmy, some of us are poor starving music teachers!
Actually, I play and teach Irish music, bluegrass, old timey/Appalachian, blues, classic rock, punk, metal, and even a little classical and a jazz standard or two. Nothing myopic about my musical tastes. I just don't care much for most ren fair music.
But then I'm mostly just slagging Ptarmy in my previous posts....
I know a lot of folks like yourself, don't have a lot of time for what I notice you call "ren fair music", which make me wonder, what do you think of all those Carolan & Bunting tunes?
I guess that perhaps you would classify them as something other than Irish Trad?
However, for me, they're simply all part of the same package, so we always include some Carolan in our sessions up here & even the odd tune from the Bunting collections.
Sure, they were influenced by other music, but what isn't, certainly loads of Irish Trad has been influenced by all sorts of things over the years too & still is!
So as far as I'm concerned, if they were good enough for the ordinary Irishman in the street to play, a few hundred years ago, then they're good enough for me.
by cuchulain54:
"Screech, I've never heard that those tied-on frets were for correcting innotation mid-stream. Or were they a sort of medieval whammy bar? To me that seems upside-down. I would believe that the tied-on frets PERMITTED adjustment, but I suspect that the tied-on frets strongly NECESSITATED it. My experience with the luit is limited, to be sure, but I found the tied-on frets, while maybe charmingly authentic, pretty much a pain in the butt."
Mid-stream is probably an exaggeration, and they certainly weren't used as a whammy bar. I think it was more a case of adjustment between movements or sections - just as many guitarists will retune their b string.
A lot of modern lutenists use equal temperament, which removes the need to move the frets. But Dowland and Gerle both give clear instructions for fret spacing which result in meantone temperament. Luis Milan explicitly describes moving the fourth fret for some keys, and Galilei mentions the use of extra frets to give both the major and minor semitones of meantone temperament.
Yeah, skreech -- that's very really interesting, thanks.
(The whammy bar line was a joke, I hope you realize!)
I've not heard of Gerle -- who dat? I'd sure be interested in getting my hands on your sources on that stuff. Is it all primary? Is it available? I remember struggling through parts of Thomas Robinson's instructions, but not the stuff you refer to, which sounds pretty cool. Is there a translation of Milan's writings on the stuff?Does Gerle need translating?
As for their availability as original source or translation, I have no idea. I'm just an instrument maker, not a musicologist, and secondary sources are good enough fo me! In this case Mark Lindley's 'Lutes, viols, and temperaments'. Is the standard reference. Lindley actually argues the case for equal temperament in his book, but there are a number of more recent articles in both JLSA and FOMRHI which find in favour of just or meantone temperament.
These days, a lot (probably the majority) of renaissance lutenists use just, and do so based on the most reliable source - experience. The've tried it both ways and just temperament sounds better, and makes more sense.
(BTW Yes, I did realise the whammy bar reference was a joke )
Hey guys, I believe that other member of the Lute family, the Saz, also has tied, movable frets. I wonder how players of the Saz make best use of them?
Thank you for posting the link to that video of yourself and your partners-in-crime performing Medieval (or was it Renaissance?) music, Ptarmigan. I enjoyed both the music and the playing but I became corrupted a long time ago when I was a teenager.
I was seventeen when I found a copy of My Ladye Nevells Booke of Virginal Music by William Byrd in a local bookstore. I bought this book because I looked through it and was intrigued by what I saw. I liked Byrd's music so much that I bought a two volume copy of the FitzWilliam Virginal Book at the same bookstore a few months later.
Although I am now 49 going on 50, I still enjoy playing this music occasionally. I find this music interesting and challenging because I have been playing piano for most of my life and it is interesting to me because this is an important part of the history of keyboard music.
I like to compare the music of Byrd and his contemporaries to what later composers have written for keyboard instruments such as the organ, the harpsichord, and the piano.
Some of this music (especially the theme and variation writing) might seem boring to contemporary musicians but that was because the techniques of theme and variation were still in their infancy at the time and hadn't been developed to the high degree that came later.
After some experimentation, I think the music of Byrd and his contemporaries sounds best on a harpsichord in my humble opinion.
Do you recognize the name Tielman Susato? I have played through some of his music which was transcribed for keyboard.
Also, in some History of Music Anthology which I found at the local public library, I found a piano transcription of a theme and variations (by Anonymous) for lute. I liked this piece so much that I made a copy of it. I still have it and like to play it on harpsichord.
I think a lot of early music performance is heavily influenced by the modern approach taken to sacred music of the period. Make it beautiful and contemplative, draw it out, wring out all that emotion.
When you take a similar approach to secular dance music, it gets . . . . boring.
The Baltimore consort does some great stuff with Renaissance dance music as an example of how to make it rock out. Particularly a lot of the tunes at the end of the second Scottish CD. Benjamin Bagby does some good stuff from much earlier time periods.
I *love* early music, but I do believe a lot of it is neutered by applying the wrong ethos to its performance. Don't think "Perotin" for peasant music.
- Coming from someone who can stand maybe two O'Carolan pieces before stepping outside for a second-hand smoke break.
Medieval Sunday!
Medieval Sunday!
We were out on the Causeway Coast yesterday, playing ye olde Medieval music in costume ... well, what else would you do in a heat wave?
Medieval Music in Costume: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C60k-r6kfZA
Anyway, it's kind of ironic, don't you think, when you look at how rich & extensive the Traditional Music of Scotland & Ireland is today, that we have so little material to work on, from way back when.
Especially when you think that some other European countries may perhaps have less now, than they had back then!
Also, it got me wondering if anyone else here, on the forum, actually plays these ancient tunes?
If so, where do you get your material?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
nae offence mind, but I thought those tunes were really really boring
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by ...
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Very nice.
I can't help with sources, I don't know of anything from that period that is specifically Scottish, but I suspect that much of the secular music from the period has survived into the modern - look for essentially pentatonic single octave tunes in morris and French dance collections and you won't be far wrong. 'Encyclopaedia Blowzabellica' is a good source if you can find a copy.
BTW. If you are going for authenticity, your gurdy player should take his trompette off - they didn't appear until the renaissance.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
We play more Renaissance than Medieval music. A lot we get from recordings and palying with people. There are manyf tune collections out there, of varying qualities - try your local university library, for starters, or the easy step of searching for tune collections with the SCA (society for creative anachronism) online. Not all these are good, but you'll figure out which ones are pretty quickly.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by reenactor
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Excellent use of a Sunday, Ptarmi- it sounds very French.
If that's the kind of thing you are looking for, there is an anthology of traditional French music, from the troubadours to C19 (words and music), with accompanying 14 CD's.
["Anthologie de la Chanson Francaise Traditionnelle" (Marc Robine), published by Albin Michel, 1994 (ISBN 2-226-07479-1).]
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Medieval Sunday!
The English and Scottish Reformations, together with the c16 English invasions of Scotland and the British c16-17 conquest of Ireland, would have gutted written records and traditions of Mediaeval music at the higher end (art music, church music). Some has been retrieved, but I imagine this is why Mediaeval music has a fairly low profile in the UK and (as far as I know ) Ireland. In the UK I think the tradition was pretty well broken - though more knowledgeable people may well say I'm wrong here.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by nicholas
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Ptarmi, thansk so much for putting this up. I'm listening to it in a heatwave too. Lovely stuff. Is the harp wire strung or something else (it sounds like it's not wire but tricky to tell). A brighter sound would have really cut through the ensemble - but then again, I love this period of music and the brightness of the instrumental sounds.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Medieval Sunday!
...hope you approve of my genuine medieval spelling of the word "thanks"
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Medieval Sunday!
"A brighter sound would have really cut through the ensemble "
We might have just found out why a lot of medieval harps had bray-pins!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Nice clip Mr. P! I have friends that do the whole Renaissance fair band thing. Not my cup of tea. I always end up talking the blacksmith about making swords at those things. Then I talk to the wizard about some spells. Then I roll a d20, beat up some goblins, loot the dungeon and save the princess. By the time I'm done, the music's over.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Ptarmigan - Are you already aware of this resouce?
http://www.altramar.org/
Cheers,
Steve
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Stevie C
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Thanks for the intelligent replies guys.
}. However, on those tunes, that was a Nylon strung Harp.
Aye Fiddler, I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but then of course nothing is, not even ITM.
If we're honest, most folks out there are actually bored witless by the endless repetition of the same rhythm, hour after hour & the dull lack of variety, when they first encounter an Irish Trad Session in a pub & many never ever wish to repeat the experience.
I know if I had a £1 for every time someone new to ITM has asked why the musicians just play the same old tune all night long, I'd be a very wealthy man.
So it is with most things.
For example, for me, the most mind-numbingly boring thing on the planet is watching football on TV ... I'd far rather whoop it up, watching paint dry.
Skreech, aye we do go for a bit of authenticity, but also enjoy taking variety of instruments along to those kind of events, to better be able to demonstrate the development of some of the instruments we use. So, for example, Sam wasn't actually playing a Hurdy Gurdy in that scene, although he had one lying in front of him. He was playing his Symphony & as I'm sure you know, he can easily click that on or off mid tune. For the same reasons, I usually take along a Violin, a Viol & a Memling Fiddle. I also take my Hammered Dulcimer, plus a Cimbala { not having a real Plucked Psaltery }, but I do take a Bowed Psaltery.
Also Mark, that day we had Gothic, Wire Strung, Brass Strung & Nylon Strung harps with us { well, gut is a bit expensive
Oh yes Skreech, of course I love loads of that wonderful French Music, they have such wonderful tunes over there, once you get in on the rhythms, they're hard to resist. Just like the hypnotic quality of much of the Breton music.
Aye reenactor, we play a wide variety too, it just depends what the event or function organizers are looking for. When you arrive on site at 8.30am & play till 5pm, variety comes in very handy!
P-K thanks for the Anthologie tip. It sounds like something I should have .. Ta!
Och Nicholas, that sounds just like the sort of thing those bl@@dy interfering Holy Joes would do.
A bit like their << NO >> <<Nae>> <<Never>> to anyone having Sex standing up, in case it led on to Dancing!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Thanks for the link Stevie. I do actually have one of their CDs here, somewhere. That site looks interesting, so I must check out their other CDs. Ta.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
I'm confused by the gurdy/symphony reference - the symphony was a very simple diatonic instrument, with a single chantrelle, one or two drones, and definitely no trompette.
I know Chris Allen (and probably other modern makers) offer a 'symphony' which does have a trompette, but isn't really a symphony, just a very basic gurdy.
But who cares? It doesn't sound out of place, so leave it in! When you go back that far authenticity is purely subjective.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
BULLSEYE Skreech!
Yes, Sam did buy that from Chris: http://www.hurdygurdy.org/instruments.html
I've got one of his 'Guitar-bodied Colson' models, myself.
What I really want though, when Mr Lotto smiles my way, is one of these:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3542/3370067539_82dec1cbf3.jpg?v=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNNnn-4Umuw
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Fair play Dick for bringing back some old music.
Keep at it, though I do catch Llig's concern.
Bertha & Rusty are a wee bit more interesting. ;)
Cheers!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Random, I can see how these simple { by today's standards } old tunes wouldn't exactly appeal to the 'Pyromaniacs of ITM', those folks who just revel in showing off all their crans, cuts, rolls, & triplets, before, after, under & over each note, which can & very often do, to my ears at least, disguise the bonny wee tune that is lurking underneath all that ostentatious guff!
So of course, if the simple charm of these early tunes escapes the listener, then clearly that music is not for them.
I suppose it's a bit like the Bluegrass & Old Time Music debate.
Those Bluegrass guys just don't like the Old Time sessions, cause of course they don't get to 'strut their funky stuff' off, in front of everyone.
Right or wrong, watching both groups of those musicians, it would appear that the Old Time guys love the tunes, while the Bluegrass guys ............... love themselves!
Glad you liked ma wee dugs!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
"well...what else would you do in a heat wave?"
Stay inside the cool pub sipping pints and play music that's not so twee. But that's just me.
The nice thing about renn fairs is how easy they are to avoid. Not like those insidious sessions that might catch you unawares as you innocently wander into any ol' pub. Yes, best to keep the medieval music penned up and charge admission....
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
"Yes, best to keep the medieval music penned up and charge admission...."
Aye Will, but charge them to get IN ............ or get OUT again?
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Ptarmigan,
A friend jogged my memory. The Skene manuscript is on google books.
http://www.hudson.nu/blog/2009/01/early-scottish-music-from-skene.html
Here's yer mandola (ish) tabs for tunes... if you know your lute tabs the rhythmic notation will be more sensical.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by reenactor
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Thank you for the youtube samples. I enjoyed them. My source for this music is a book and CD, "Medieval Music for Violin," by ADG Productions, in Lawndale, CA. Web site:
www.adgproductions.com They have other books and recordings in this series. I once attended a Swedish concert, "Krook." (Music of drummers, wedding musicians and enchanted women.) The tunes from 1300-1500's, were spellbinding.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Leendah
Re: Medieval Sunday!
'That's enough music now!'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJ0xR2_bQ&feature=related
Lovely though that is,give me a bit of Machaut with my Sunday roast... ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPQjqZm6q0Q&feature=PlayList&p=544A642E93FBB69A&index=4 )
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by biggus dave
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Dick, I didn't find those tune boring because they had no pyrotechnics. I found them boring because they were dull. I'm not commenting on the playing, just the tunes.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by ...
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Yep, the playing is fine, no less than what I've come to expect from Ptarmy and friends.
LOL at charging people to get out! Why haven't I thought of that before?
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Will Harmon
;)
Just like the M.T.A.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Heh, yer right, random. That hit me when I last visited Boston. May explain why so many people loiter down there....
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
llig, your finding something boring does not make it dull.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
LOL, cuch, it's just llig's opinion that those tunes are dull.
I thought they were dull, myself. Not the worst of that sort of stuff I've ever heard, but not as refreshing (to me) as tunes the likes of Dr. Gilbert's, say, or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie, or Fly in the Pint.
Those medieval tunes lacked a number of things that I enjoy in most Irish trad tunes. An unusual juxtaposition of intervals, unexpected or counterintuitive twists, harmonic or modal shifts, sinuous phrases longer than a measure, etc. Too often, ren fair music and the like sounds to me utterly predictable and banal.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Hey Will,
Dr. Gilbert's or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie in those clothes, in that setting, at that event!!!
You find me a C15th tune that is as exciting as Dr. Gilbert's or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie & I'll happily play it!
That, in my opinion, is where shows like Ye Olde banquets at places like Bunratty usually go wrong!
As well as playing loads of far too modern funky tunes, their costumes are usually far too hollywood in style, so the whole thing is about as believable as films like The Black Night!
They should leave all that sort of crap kitsch to Disneyland.
Scottish period musician Simon Chadwick put it this way, when describing how to make Medieval tunes sound more realistic.
He recommended stripping away all the distinctive 18th century flute and fiddle idiom, and inserting lashings of medieval harp idiom instead, which he believes can often produce a convincing 'reconstruction' of a tune's medieval form.
In other words, if we were to play Dr. Gilbert's, or Jenny's Welcome to Charlie in those clothes, in that setting, at such an event, folks would think we were doing a bad pi$$ take of Monty Python's Holy Grail!
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Opinion is fine, and I notice, Will, that when you express one, you tend to add qualifiers like “to me,” which makes a difference. Because my point to Michael was that his finding it dull doesn’t mean it IS dull.
Both of you provide a good explanation, you here and Michael in another thread, for what you love about Irish music, and presumably neither of you find those characteristics in Ptarmigan’s ptunes. But that doesn’t they aren’t there; just that you don’t find them. Nor does it mean that Ptarmigan’s ptunes don’t have something entirely different going for them, something that neither you nor Michael particularly care for.
That’s fine, of course, but that’s not about the music, it’s about your tastes in it. It seems to me that it’s wise to add qualifiers like “to me” when dismissing someone else’s work. It seems wiser still, I think, to put the onus where it belongs — on the viewer, not the thing viewed. “I can’t relate to that.” Or “I don’t know how to listen to that.” Or even “I can’t really understand the appeal of that.”
You’re responding to my post, and that’s different, but I really question Michael’s motives for going out of his way to dimiss the stuff: What’s he trying to do?
It’s a little like an avid gamer saying he finds books boring. In a way, I can understand that, because books certainly lack the thing that gamers are looking for, but the gamer has no business imposing his expectations for games on the world of books. And why would a gamer walk into a conversation among book lovers and announce that books are dull?
I’ve heard jazzers do that with Irish music. It all sounds alike, right? Don’t you find that offensive, even in a small way?
In some ways, I agree with you about the predictability of the medieval music. Still, remember those people were trying to find their way in a very early setting. They had very primitive instruments and a very primitive theoretical knowledge. Some would say that’s part of the charm of the music of the era. Those people may even argue that Irish tunes are too clever, too glib in comparison with the more forthright medieval stuff. But those people would get under my skin, too.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
True authenticity is, of course, impossible. So instead, you rightly speak of it "sounding more realistic", a "convincing 'reconstruction".
i.e., you play to peoples' preconceptions of what it sounded like.
And maybe peoples' preconceptions are of the tunes souding dull?
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Hmm. Now that I find interesting and constructive. OK, never mind.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Well I come at this sort of thing from a background reading medieval English literature (in the language of the day), and I think the literature and the music had a lot in common. So in my critique above, I tried to stay "close to the text."
)
I just personally don't understand the attraction of spending an afternoon dressed in period clothes playing period music. Any more than I understand the pretense some people make of wearing tweed walking caps and wool sweaters when they pay at an Irish session, despite living in, say, California or Montana. Half the time, the caps are made in China. 
It does help to include qualifiers, but it's also tempting to use shorthand, especially since all anyone can post on here is their opinion. Seems redundant to have to spell that out every time. (But that's just my opinion.
Ptarmy, I didn't mean to suggest playing more modern tunes in the setting and clothes you were in. That would be high sillydom.
Nonetheless, I can readily see the enjoyment Ptarmy gets out of whatever music he plays, and that's what counts, eh?
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
cuchulain54:
"In some ways, I agree with you about the predictability of the medieval music. Still, remember those people were trying to find their way in a very early setting. They had very primitive instruments and a very primitive theoretical knowledge."
To be honest, I think our whole conception of early music is wrong. The elements of music that made people tap their feet or get up and dance 600 years ago would be exactly the same as they are today. And certainly the instruments weren't primative - how many guitarists do you know who move their frets when they change key so that they don't have to make do with equal temperament? Yet that was common practice amongst lutenists, sometime even mid-tune. Certainly by the early 17th century, (when we start getting detailed lute tabliture) some of the music is very intricate. That didn't happen overnight, and must have built up through the medieval period.
I think the real problem with our conception of medieval music come from the early reconstructions. The first people to try to recreate early music were a bunch of academics, playing instruments they were unfamiliar with, and working with only 'the dots' to guide them. The dots from that period are very, very sketchy. If you just play what is written the music is bland and boring. But that is how those early recreators played it - as classically trained academics, they played what was written. And they said 'This is medieval music.' And from that point on that is how everyone else has recreated medieval music, because it is what people expect.
But if you pick those tunes up and run with them, forget that they are supposed to be 'medieval', just play them as you would any other tune, you'll find you can make them as interesting as any other tune. And that, I'm sure, is much closer to how medieval musicians would have played them than any deliberate recreation.
I'm pretty sure that there is a lot more continuity than people realise, and that a lot of tunes that are still played today actually date back to that period, it's just that there is no written record to prove it.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
You're missing my point, Will. Shorthand or no, it was gratuitous and pointless. At least that's the way I saw it, until he added the bit about people playing to preconceptions instead of playing the music.
Which goes a bit toward skreetch's interesting point. So, skreech, do you think the originals might have rocked out a bit on that stuff? You might be right that the academic recreators dulled it up, but I think we have to be equally careful not to impose our modern sensibilities on those old-timers. A lot has changed, and it takes more to stir us nowadays, don't you think? Our instruments are bigger, louder and brighter, we work with a higher standard pitch, our arrangements are more bombastic -- are we really qualified to determine what was dull, bland and boring to people of the middle ages?
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
No, I see your point, cuch. I'm just resigned to llig's tone.
To be fair, though, isn't Ptarmy asking for a bit of slagging by posting this clip on this site? I mean, folks here have been poking fun at the ren fair crowd nearly since the mustard board's inception....
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
BTW, just because you saw it as gratuitous and pointless doesn't mean it WAS gratuitous and pointless, eh? (runs and hides)
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Ptarmy's clip is akin to proudly posting this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1gPT6pTTB8) here, right? I mean, if you were one of the dancers looking for feedback and info about where to find more of this sort of thing, and you posted it to a site about Irish trad sessions.
Hard to resist the temptation, eh?
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Medieval rock fest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DV5p_FHP1U
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Not that we've necessarily advanced much in the last 1,000 years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDA4hTEiqcU
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Just a quick comment before Will's next YouTube link.
Ptarmigan, I was glad to see (& hear) some of the clips on your YouTube page. I miss the audio clips from SoundLantern.
It's good to know you're still recording, just on a different site.
& of course there are those outdoor romps with Rusty & Bertha.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Hey, don't worry guys, if I didn't have a very thick skin & a rather broad back to handle honest opinions, plus the inevitable load of slagging I know I'm going to get on this site, I would never have posted the link.
I know only too well that many folks who post here, have a very myopic view when it comes to music. That's fine, got forbid that we would all have the same viewpoint!
However, others here are more like myself & not only listen to, but also play, a wide variety of music. So much as I love Irish Music, I think my brain would go numb & wilt if I listened to only Trad Irish all day & all night. So I'm quite happy to take the flack, in order to reach those who are a bit more open to something just a wee bit different.
Also, I left the school yard many, many years ago, so I'm well past the "my music's better than your music .... na na ne na na" stage too.
However, what you guys with your huge salaries, pension plans, foreign holidays & middle class life styles etc etc perhaps don't appreciate, is that anyone who is actually trying to make a living from Traditional Music today, has to be prepared to be very diverse. Especially when you are, like me, a home bird who has no desire to be on tour all the time.
That said, if I didn't find these ancient tunes fascinating, I wouldn't be playing them.
Yes, many of them are very boring to listen to, but some are great fun to play. A lot of fun can also be had from learning how to play the strange instruments that were used back then. True, most of the enthusiasts who get involved in these events are rather eccentric, but boys a dear are they interesting. Call me crazy, but I find that a day in costume with some of those guys is a lot more fun, than spending a day with a load of stuffed shirt, po-faced academics.
I certainly don't feel I have to apologize to anyone here for finding this kind of music fascinating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i33GemvNoI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0QknQoOG6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc-j4hv3H_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TueOJ0Ccubo
By the same token, I make no apologies for liking, what some folks here might consider simpler forms of music ~ Breton Music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgWcNwzucaM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AifzeX4Gyps
Anyway, where does this notion come from, that complicated tunes and music must automatically be better music?
It's, no doubt, part of the same school of nonsense here, that says that Polkas & Slides are all crap tunes, because they're not as 'complicated' as the Big Reels! .... I just don't get that!
Still, bring it on guys.
It must make a change, from picking on Bodhran players!
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
cuchulain54,
Yes, I do think they would have rocked! I agree that we must be wary of imposing our own values on the music, but I am not convinced that our values are that much different to those of the middle ages. Certainly if you look at ethnic music today, the music of more primative cultures is anything but 'staid and boring'.
For me, trying to recreate medieval music from manscript is a non-starter - you couldn't recreate today's music from a pile of hymn books and a handful of opera scores, and that is essentially all we have from the medieval. Perhaps a better place to look would be North Africa and the Mediterranian coast - this is where many of the instruments (and presumably the music with them) originated, and since the instruments remain essentially unchanged to this day, it seems reasonable to assume that the music does too.
With regard to the instruments, yes, we've upped pitch and string tension to get more volume, but they had another approach to the problem - they used a much wider range of instruments. Where we do pretty much everything with the same handful of instruments, they had different instruments for different purposes - gut strung lutes and harps and various bowed instruments for song accompaniment, pipe and tabor, bagpipes, shawms and various wire strung guitar type instruments for dancing. One of the most important factors (and one that is often overlooked) is to make sure you are using an authentic combination of instruments, and not just throwing instruments together at random because they are all 'medieval'.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
"Anyway, where does this notion come from, that complicated tunes and music must automatically be better music?"
Certainly not me. (re the Diddley music is easy mantra)
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Medieval Sunday!
"One of the most important factors (and one that is often overlooked) is to make sure you are using an authentic combination of instruments, and not just throwing instruments together at random because they are all 'medieval'."
Aye skreech, you must mean a bit like, playing Irish Traditional Music with things like Bouzouki, G Banjo, Upright Bass, Viola, etc etc
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
hi, thanks for posting it.
I really enjoy renaissance fairs and similar events and play some of the tunes on the video myself. . I wish i had time and money to get one of those medieval fiddles and learn to play it.
there's probably a lot of people out there who are into ITM as well as other types of traditional/old music.
I don't think they were boring tunes. Just as a suggestion, not criticism: The bagpipe player could still do with some more ornamentation and maybe variations in rhythm, and it would add some interest to the tunes.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Mina the Fiddler
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Ptarmigan,
Yes, I often smile at the 'traditional' (cough) instruments used in ITM. I suppose the difference is that it is a living tradition, and is still evolving. As long as the spirit of the music is preserved it's OK, we are not trying to exactly replicate what our forebears played.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
You thought Medieval Sunday was good...just wait til you see Semievil Saturday. Fully sick man.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Just because Ptarmigan says we have huge salaries, pension plans, foreign holidays & middle class life styles doesn't make it so.
Wish it did.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by grego
Re: Medieval Sunday!
I remember Alfred Brendel being asked why he didn't play his mozart piano music on the kind of instrument the music was composed on. His answer could not have been more straight forward, "It sounds better on a modern piano."
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Of course Alfred was entitled to his opinion, as am I and for what it's worth, I personally prefer the sound of the Harpsichord:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KEcZbMoh8
Aye skreech, I think it's worth bearing in mind too, that no matter how hard we try, we can never "exactly replicate what our forebears played".
However, I reckon we can at least make an effort in that direction e.g. by using replica instruments of the time, rather than go for the soft option of playing modern instruments, just because they work better, are easier to tune & maintain & also do our best to shed some of the modern frills in the music.
So I see nothing in wrong in playing a very simple & less ornamented version of the tunes I come across.
Don't worry, poor old Grego, if my Lotto ticket comes up this week, I'll see you are well looked after!
Mini, you may well be right. I hadn't actually heard either of those tunes until about 20 mins before I switched on Mr Flip Video, so I was only tickling around the edges of the 1st one, or should I say playing a very bare bones version on my H D.
As for the Pipers ornamentation, you may well be right but I'm afraid I have little or no knowledge of modern Piping ornamentation, never mind what was more likely to have been played, way back then, so I just can't judge. I also have no idea how long Ferris has been playing those tunes, so she may only be getting to grips with them herself. However, I do know that Sam only acquired that Symphonie a few weeks ago & was getting hand cramps all day, from simply not being used to playing it, so I'm sure his version was pretty basic, for good reason.
Of course, the fact is, I certainly didn't post that video in order for us to show off how we were all brilliant medieval musicians, I just thought some folks here might be interested in seeing & hearing something just a wee bit different & we might perhaps hook up with a few more enthusiasts of that sort of carry on & maybe get a few more tips on sources of good tunes.
Of course, I also know that most folks here wouldn't be seen dead playing music in frilly costumes, at least not out in public anyway!
Although, when it comes to the private habits of many prominent members here, well let's just say .............. I've heard stories!
I also understand that some photographic evidence is in the post!
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Not sure I’ve ever heard Mozart on the harpsichord (his instrument would have been the fortepiano, wouldn't it?), but I’d like to. I never paid close attention to Mozart or Haydn symphonies and concertos until I heard them on “original instruments.” It was a minor revelation for me. I’m not sure Franz or Wolfie would prefer the modern instruments.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Screech, I've never heard that those tied-on frets were for correcting innotation mid-stream. Or were they a sort of medieval whammy bar? To me that seems upside-down. I would believe that the tied-on frets PERMITTED adjustment, but I suspect that the tied-on frets strongly NECESSITATED it. My experience with the luit is limited, to be sure, but I found the tied-on frets, while maybe charmingly authentic, pretty much a pain in the butt.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Lute, of course.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Yes Cuchulain,
Sam's frets are also tied on gut ones.
He doesn't seem to have much bother with them, although I must admit, I've never seen him move them.
Speaking of the Lute, here's a Scottish tune on one:
A Port:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TxXn6qD7wg
There are a bunch more here:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E3D11FB31F5C8D1C&search_query=scottish+lute
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
I played around with a lute many years ago and it seemed to me that the frets were held firmly in place, maybe even glued. If they had been loose enough to slide around quickly, I think it would have been too easy to push a fret out of position. And wouldn't the fret need to be tight against the fingerboard in order to get a reliably clean, solid tone?
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Maybe, but I've never played a lute on which the frets weren't easily pushed around. In fact, I regularly had to lift them from their proper position, slide them upward (the neck was tapered), let them relax for a just a sec and then slide them back down to about where they were comfortably snug on the neck, which was close to their proper placement. Then, I'd have to check the intonation of the fret placement (by playing a scale on a high course and then one on a low course), and only then could I hope to tune the strings to each other. It was a major bother. The old joke about banjo players spending half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune? It's absolutely true of lute players. Accept those wizards screech is talking about, who would mess with intonation on the fly. I'd like to see that.
As far as the need for tightness against the fingerboard to get a reliably clean, solid tone -- well, that, oddly enough, was never that much of a problem, for me. Maybe the extremely soft action of the strings helped.
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Hey Ptarmy, some of us are poor starving music teachers!
Actually, I play and teach Irish music, bluegrass, old timey/Appalachian, blues, classic rock, punk, metal, and even a little classical and a jazz standard or two. Nothing myopic about my musical tastes. I just don't care much for most ren fair music.
But then I'm mostly just slagging Ptarmy in my previous posts....
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
"some of us are poor starving music teachers!"
Oh yeah!
http://www.careerbuilder.co.uk/UK/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?IPath=JRTCM&APath=2.21.0.0.0&job_did=J3I5Q16P5DQYF9VTCGS&int_ukjobis=&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=8b658fdf39444e16be7f73ef68e9a71d-297368122-JU-5
Yeah right. £32,000 to £35,000! ......... real breadline wages those!
No doubt, your living in a cardboard box, down some dark alley?
I'd need to work for at least 2 years, to come anywhere near the lesser of those two figures Will!
Maybe I should go back to selling my body, to make extra cash?
Any offers? .. I look like Hugh Jackman ....... at 18 stone !!!!
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Um, Ptarmy, I teach lessons on my own, not in a school, and certainly not for those wages.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Ah, so are these your students Will?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJljaWNhzgM
If so, ..... good job!
I know a lot of folks like yourself, don't have a lot of time for what I notice you call "ren fair music", which make me wonder, what do you think of all those Carolan & Bunting tunes?
I guess that perhaps you would classify them as something other than Irish Trad?
However, for me, they're simply all part of the same package, so we always include some Carolan in our sessions up here & even the odd tune from the Bunting collections.
Sure, they were influenced by other music, but what isn't, certainly loads of Irish Trad has been influenced by all sorts of things over the years too & still is!
So as far as I'm concerned, if they were good enough for the ordinary Irishman in the street to play, a few hundred years ago, then they're good enough for me.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Nope, no students of mine there, just good friends.
Eleanor Plunkett is one of my favorite tunes--often gets played at sessions here.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Interesting set of 'related videos' to that one Will. The Kelly's first though. (assuming youtube offers us all the same).
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by David50
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Eleanor Plunkett:
http://www.contemplator.com/carolan/plunkett.html
I'm just wondering then, if we could describe Carolan's music as late "ren fair music", Will?
I which case, it's only Irish "Ren Fayre Music" that you like?
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
... perhaps it's only
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
by cuchulain54:
"Screech, I've never heard that those tied-on frets were for correcting innotation mid-stream. Or were they a sort of medieval whammy bar? To me that seems upside-down. I would believe that the tied-on frets PERMITTED adjustment, but I suspect that the tied-on frets strongly NECESSITATED it. My experience with the luit is limited, to be sure, but I found the tied-on frets, while maybe charmingly authentic, pretty much a pain in the butt."
Mid-stream is probably an exaggeration, and they certainly weren't used as a whammy bar. I think it was more a case of adjustment between movements or sections - just as many guitarists will retune their b string.
A lot of modern lutenists use equal temperament, which removes the need to move the frets. But Dowland and Gerle both give clear instructions for fret spacing which result in meantone temperament. Luis Milan explicitly describes moving the fourth fret for some keys, and Galilei mentions the use of extra frets to give both the major and minor semitones of meantone temperament.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Dammit, skreech, you’ve made me learn something new. Now I’ll have to forget something.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Yeah, skreech -- that's very really interesting, thanks.
(The whammy bar line was a joke, I hope you realize!)
I've not heard of Gerle -- who dat? I'd sure be interested in getting my hands on your sources on that stuff. Is it all primary? Is it available? I remember struggling through parts of Thomas Robinson's instructions, but not the stuff you refer to, which sounds pretty cool. Is there a translation of Milan's writings on the stuff?Does Gerle need translating?
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Gerle
)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_de_Mil%C3%A1n
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenzo_Galilei
As for their availability as original source or translation, I have no idea. I'm just an instrument maker, not a musicologist, and secondary sources are good enough fo me! In this case Mark Lindley's 'Lutes, viols, and temperaments'. Is the standard reference. Lindley actually argues the case for equal temperament in his book, but there are a number of more recent articles in both JLSA and FOMRHI which find in favour of just or meantone temperament.
These days, a lot (probably the majority) of renaissance lutenists use just, and do so based on the most reliable source - experience. The've tried it both ways and just temperament sounds better, and makes more sense.
(BTW Yes, I did realise the whammy bar reference was a joke
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by skreech
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Hey guys, I believe that other member of the Lute family, the Saz, also has tied, movable frets. I wonder how players of the Saz make best use of them?
http://www.percival.pl/galeria/09_instrumenty/saz.jpg
http://www.worldmusicalinstruments.com/c-105-saz.aspx
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Thank you for the links -- both you guys.
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by cuchulain54
Re: Medieval Sunday!
Thank you for posting the link to that video of yourself and your partners-in-crime performing Medieval (or was it Renaissance?) music, Ptarmigan. I enjoyed both the music and the playing but I became corrupted a long time ago when I was a teenager.
I was seventeen when I found a copy of My Ladye Nevells Booke of Virginal Music by William Byrd in a local bookstore. I bought this book because I looked through it and was intrigued by what I saw. I liked Byrd's music so much that I bought a two volume copy of the FitzWilliam Virginal Book at the same bookstore a few months later.
Although I am now 49 going on 50, I still enjoy playing this music occasionally. I find this music interesting and challenging because I have been playing piano for most of my life and it is interesting to me because this is an important part of the history of keyboard music.
I like to compare the music of Byrd and his contemporaries to what later composers have written for keyboard instruments such as the organ, the harpsichord, and the piano.
Some of this music (especially the theme and variation writing) might seem boring to contemporary musicians but that was because the techniques of theme and variation were still in their infancy at the time and hadn't been developed to the high degree that came later.
After some experimentation, I think the music of Byrd and his contemporaries sounds best on a harpsichord in my humble opinion.
Do you recognize the name Tielman Susato? I have played through some of his music which was transcribed for keyboard.
Also, in some History of Music Anthology which I found at the local public library, I found a piano transcription of a theme and variations (by Anonymous) for lute. I liked this piece so much that I made a copy of it. I still have it and like to play it on harpsichord.
# Posted on June 6th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Medieval Sunday!
I enjoyed the clip, particularly the second tune.
I think a lot of early music performance is heavily influenced by the modern approach taken to sacred music of the period. Make it beautiful and contemplative, draw it out, wring out all that emotion.
When you take a similar approach to secular dance music, it gets . . . . boring.
The Baltimore consort does some great stuff with Renaissance dance music as an example of how to make it rock out. Particularly a lot of the tunes at the end of the second Scottish CD. Benjamin Bagby does some good stuff from much earlier time periods.
I *love* early music, but I do believe a lot of it is neutered by applying the wrong ethos to its performance. Don't think "Perotin" for peasant music.
- Coming from someone who can stand maybe two O'Carolan pieces before stepping outside for a second-hand smoke break.
# Posted on June 11th 2009 by wormdiet