I'm thinking of getting an irish-style button box. If I do, I'll be the only guy playing the thing in the city and one of the two in the country (another one is in 1000 km). I never played any accordions before, but have some experience in ITM - two years of playing a tinwhistle and listening the ITM CDs, a bunch of tunes in my head and (some) understanding of the music (I hope).
I do need some advice.
First, is it worth trying, being in complete isolation? There are some good ITM players here, but no box/concertina players, and no sessions. Should I take a regular piano accordion, or continental chromatic button accordion (better known here in one of its versions, "the bayan") instead of irish-style box? You can get a used bayan or accordion for small money here, and there are teachers (but not for ITM, of course). I like the sound of irish button box more, but others are still cool.
Second, if i decide to take the irish one, which one should I take?
Which box do I need? I'm from the world of tinwhistles, where you get a high-end instrument for $150 or both high-end and collector's item for $400 (yep, I do own a copeland), so the prices of accordions make me shudder. Also it looks like they all are almost as different as tinwhistles are in their sound. E.g.:
What makes the difference? How should I choose my instrument, what to ask for? Note that I can't come to the shop and test them all, I can only choose one and order it by mail.
Third. How to study? There are tutors to understand the tecnique and there is lots of great ITM music to understand the music. Is that enough? With tinwhistle I had all the same, but there also were some good tinwhistle players around, and I could ask questions.
Any advice or comments, relevant or irrelevant, are welcome.
my experience has been that learning the box is a solitary affair so don't let local circumstances bother you.
B/C is a hard road but if you've got the time and the stamina its the best.
tutor book sare at best of very limited value. you're better off working it out for yourself - the most important thing is to understand the rhythm of the music - if you've got this already then you've got a head start
spend time with a keyboard diagram and a pencil and paper
you need an instrument that plays easily - that is to say, the keys aren't stiff, the bellows aren't stiff and the reeds speak quickly.
unless you're very lucky and get a good used box to learn on, you'll need to spend seroius money to get a cairdin or a castagnari if you want to play well before you die of old age.
lesser boxes will hold you back - as I know to my cost.
the money you spend on a good box you have a chance of earning back, but you can never recover the years wasted on a low quality instrument
you might as well get it by by mail order - most shops that sell boxes don't have anyone on the staff who can actually play one ( a B/C that is), so you'll not be getting any expertise for the price you pay there
if bayans are cheap it might be a good idea to try one first - particularly if you can get a small light model with a left hand side light enough to let you put some punch into your tunes
Clip 1: 2-voice box (2 reeds per note).
Clips 2 & 3 are both 3-voice boxes with one reed sounding an octave below the others.
I'd recommend you get a 2-voice box to start with - lighter and cheaper. I would disagree with millionyears' advice and say, don't spend thousands of euros until you know you are going to make the cut as a box player.
I'd suggest a Hohner Morgane, which is available in B/C tuning, or if your budget doesn't run to that, an Erica
... as I was saying (fecking laptop keyboards) an Erica or a Double-Ray.
If millionyears is right and it's a solitary road (more or less true in my case though I've had very useful advice along the road) then you might also consider C#/D because the learning curve in the initial stages is less steep, and it's also a fine system, just as valid as B/C despite the absence of tutors.
i agree with the comments that it's a long, hard road. however, i have a different two cents on the advisability of trying to learn two-row diatonic irish accordion, particularly if you start down the b/c path, completely independently. it's possible, but you can save years of frustration and unnecessarily slow progress by making it your business by hook or by crook to aggressively search out master b/c teachers who know how to teach and explain technique including fingering approaches, bellows approaches, getting a full tone out of the box on both the push and the pull, etc........many master-level traditional players are wonderful "teachers": for purposes of being in the same room and watching them play and/or hearing them talk about interpretation, feeling, swing, etc. however, this is not the same thing as a gifted technique teacher who is an adept "explainer" about tone, fingering, basses, etc. people like tim collins & michael o'raghallahaigh are famed for being in this category on concertina, not sure who is on box. you don't need to see such a person constantly, but as someone who did not have this, and was too much of a greenhorn to understand that box workshops that did only tune-learning-by-ear were a complete waste of time, i would insist that for two-row b/c box, making it your business to seek out such teachers and do whatever it takes to spend at least some time with them, is an investment well worth making.
likewise, getting the most responsive box (by that i mean responsive reeds, buttons, bellows) is also an investment well worth making. it's a great instrument, but it has an undeserved reputation as being easy to learn. have fun!
Learning the box in isolation isn't impossible.
I've been using the John Williams tutor DVD/book tutor to learn the B/C. I found it got me up to speed pretty quickly. In about a month and a half I've gotten through about half the tunes in that tutor as well as a few tunes in an Irish mandolin tutor I have.
I bought "The Box" tutor book also and found it quite useful, though the first tunes were'nt as easy to remember as the JW tutor. There are plenty of tunes left in the book that I haven't even tried yet.
The box I'm learning on is a Paolo Soprani Elite 1. I like the sound- I believe it's 3 voice- but I do find it a bit heavy at times. I love the feel of the B/C, and wouldn't trade it for a PA or Chromatic.
Dealing with "The Button Box" was very easy and efficient. They always answered e-mails quickly, and gave what I thought was good advise.
I decided to buy a B/C (as opposed to a C#/D) firstly; because the tutors are mostly, or all in that tuning and secondly because there was an instrument available in my neck of the woods.
I'f you're planning to buy new I wouln't worry. But if you're buying used its important to know what you're getting. Dried leather reed covers, moldy smelling bellows, missing reeds, and sticky keys aren't nice. Accordion repair isn't cheap, at least not around here. I had a quote to refurbish an old Hohner CF Club, and the price would have nearly bought a new
Castagnari Lilly model.
As i've just started, I can't give you straight up advise, but these were (and are) my experiences as a beginner box player. So far I think I've avoided making any costly mistakes.
yeah clip one you've got there he's using a 2-voice box with both the sets of reeds tuned to exactly the same pitch. this is called dry tuning.
clip 2 he's using 3 voices, 2 in the same octave tuned dry and one tuned an octave below.
clip 3 he's using 3 probably, with 2 in the same octave but tuned slightly (10-20% of a semitone) apart to give it some tremolo and one tuned an octave down.
the other main option is to have a 2 voice with both sets in the same octave but with a little bit of tremolo. this is a much lighter sound than clip 3 but a bit fuller than clip 1 and might be what you want in a 2 voice box.
> by hook or by crook to aggressively search out master b/c
> teachers who know how to teach
One more time: I'm in russia. Nearest place where good players are is western europe, or, more likely, the british isles. Going there = lots of money and visa issues. Anyway, it is possible. Should I double the money I pay for the box and do that? When should I do that - at the very beginning, or later on? Will the week or two of having a teacher change the things?
> you'll need to spend seroius money to get a cairdin or a
> castagnari if you want to play well before you die of old age.
Oh. Yes, that's a serious money. That's my shopping budget for 3-4 monthes. To be honest, I don't have THAT much... Is that SO important?
You also all speak about long hard road. But look, there's uillean pipes, there is fiddle, which both take years before you get some descent sound. The box looks less evil than these two. Or am I wrong?
You do NOT need a Cairdin or a Castagnari to learn to play box. Sure, they are nice, but there are lots of fantastic players all over the world who have never been able to afford anything more than a humble Hohner.
What anvilcoyote said about the perils of buying a used box in poor condition is very true.
I'd suggest you get in touch with a trustworthy repairman/dealer in used boxes such as Theo Gibb ( http://www.theboxplace.co.uk/ ). Tell him what you are looking for and he'll probably be able to fix you up with something quite quickly, maybe for around £400.
Don't wish to start the endless C#/D vs. B/C discussion again - there are a zillion threads on the topic on here already BUT I would say that, as you are a whistle player, you would find having a D row as your home row much more intuitive than a C row. And, if you're learning in isolation, it will certainly be easier.
PS box is probably easier than uilleann pipes or fiddle and certainly easier to get a good sound out of. It's easy to get a few simple tunes sounding reasonably OK within a few weeks or even a few days.
But to master the thing? This takes a lot of time and practice. Less time than the pipes or fiddle I would think but definitely years of concentrated hard work.
A button box is whole lot less to drag around than the usual bayan. Getting a B/C box will mean that all the B/C button box tutorials will be useful to you and you should get *all* of them if you're working in isolation so you will have a chance to develop as thorough an understanding as possible of how to play. If you come here for advice you'll get everything from "use all your fingers on the keyboard" to "never use more than three fingers" and often you won't know if the advice comes from a credible, skilled traditional box player or a ten year old first-year trumpet student. If you can't find a teacher then you'll need to watch closely videos of well-known, skilled players that play your box keyboard system and what they do will guide you. If you want to learn from intuition, that's a different path.
Like Jeeves wrote, you don't need to spend 4000USD for a decent button box for learning. Any of these would be fine. http://www.irishdancemaster.com/prices.html How much it would cost you to get one of them to Russia would depend on your connections.
There's nothing wrong with learning the bayan if you can get a good one considerably cheaper than a good button box. Having a teacher show you how to maneuver around the keyboard is important. A classical bayan teacher is likely to be rigid in insisting on methods of practice and that would use up time otherwise applied to learning tunes. If you're musical enough, dedicated enough, patient enough, attentive enough, and have access to a large number of recordings of Irish music played by skilled players of fiddles, pipes, flutes, whistles, concertinas, and accordions eventually you'll learn how to manipulate the bayan to make the notes flow as they should in Irish tunes, especially if you have developed correct technique successfully on whistle.
As far as the sound of the bayan goes, it is possible to tune a bayan's reeds to have any degree of tremolo (tremolo, rather than "vibrato" is the term that describes the sound of accordion reed sets; "wet" means more tremolo and "dry" means less) or almost no tremolo. Continue to improve on the whistle. It will help you to develop phrasing on the bayan.
My turn to chime in. I think I wrote this same post 2 1/2 years ago.
First I think you'll be surprised. Once you get in the loop you will find other box players. I think someone said early learning box is solitary. It really is. You have to get your mind and focus in order before you want to expose people to your playing. Probably one reason accordion gets a bad rap. People try to 'play in' too early in the learning process and sound like c**p despite their best intentions...no because they are bad players, they are inexperienced.
On the box. Ditch the idea of learning PA. (As a former PA player, I won't go into the relative instuments merits. It is a wonderful instrument.) The PA is a very different instrument from the Box. If you want to learn Box. Jump in with both feet as it were. It is complex, but in many ways very simple and surprising efficient to play.
You can do well for reasonable cost if you are careful. At all costs avoid the cheap chinese and eastern european instuments. Saltarelle Boube is a nice start (I have to get that in because my teacher is John Williams and he sells that box as well as the aforereferenced DVD-both very good btw). But at your stage you will probably use the DVD for a month or so, go away (actually, there is an amazing amount of wisdom in 'The Box' learning book you have and you should use it until you are ready to retrun to John's DVD it after 6 months. Tremendous amount of info.) Not that John's DVD is difficult. But you must listen to it carefully and appreciate the little things he gets in there. EVerytime you relisten to it you will hear something you missed the times before. He is very knowledgable.
Michael at Irish Dancemaster makes a great traditional box from what I am told (flat keyboard 21 treble 8 bass) in his IrishDancemeaster line. In my case, Michael helped me get my first box in order. He is a master. You mention being overseas though. I don't know what shipping will be since IDM is in Florida USA.
On the higher end, the Castignari's are magnificant boxes. Tone quality is a thing to behold. As are the Vander Aas (made I belive in South America). Bertrand Galliards for the iconocalsts among us. Also magnificent tone.
There are some proponents of Hohners here. The ones I have heard do sound very nice. Said to be affordable. But If you are serious spend a few extra sheckles. its worht it in the long run.
If you can...find a teacher. Nothing beats having someone to give you feedback. In the absence, buy yourself a recording device. A very humbling, unsympathtic sort of teacher.
As I learned (accused by Herself as being ADHD), you must be patient with the box. Learn the keyboard. Learn the bellows. And learn the air button. But play slowly, get your phrasing.
Another thought: if you can't afford a 3-voice box, don't despair. You may like the sound of them played solo, but in my experience, in a session or a band setting, other players will probably appreciate _not_ having that lower octave sounding. An accordion can too easily dominate or drown out other instruments.
I like three voices - but all in the same octave. Two voices is just fine, especially when tuned with the exact shade of tremolo that tickles your musical nerve-endings.
I recently owned a Double-Ray and it's a very nice box (sold it to buy another box). It was adjusted for faster play but I didn't find myself fighting it like so many say. Obviously it's not the Italian sports car that a Castagnari is but it's no slouch, either. I thought that a friend's Morgane was a very nice box for the money. If you can find one on the used market for under $700 then it's a steal. Saltarelle Irish Bouebes are excellent value for the money, and in some ways play like a much more expensive box would. I owned a Cairdin very briefly but sold it (to a member here! HI Steve) in order to relocate. Nice box, but the Antonelli reeds were a little soft spoken. I really didn't have much time to get to know it.
There's a Double-Ray Deluxe in B/C tuning on Ebay right now:
Same thing as a regular Double-Ray but you get 12 unisonoric basses instead of eight bisonoric basses ( = same bass note both ways instead of different tones on push and pull), and three medium voices for a fuller sound without potentially irritating any other players with an offensive low reed. You can fish around this site to brush up on the bass vs. no bass arguments but it's the extra voice that I would want in that box...
Yes a crap shoot of sorts but looks like a nice one that will probably finish way cheaper than a new standard (Chinese) Double-Ray. That much being said, if you're keen on paying attention to Ebay, there have been some positively _dizzying_ bargains going down lately.
Here's my two cents about learning B/C: what Jeeves Tones said about the learning curve in both systems is absolutely correct.
Cross-row play in keys like G D and A across a B and a C row takes a lot of rewiring. After a while it's intuitive but if you have to learn by yourself without a human tutor then it will seem much more difficult. As a whistle player you'll find learning the ropes in C#/D much easier. Once you're ahead of the game you can still play another half-step system, and you get different keys. I've always found that early success is very encouraging and either makes or breaks my interest in an instrument or (keyboard system).
I started on a one row, 7 button toy accordion -- I could play maybe a dozen or so tunes. This was a toy but it gave me the basic understanding of the push/pull system that is the same as a harmonica.
The main thing is learning to play the basic diatonic scale and a few simple tunes like Kesh - I think my show stopper was Homes of Donnegal -
Once I felt like I had taken this one row toy button box as far as I could I bought an Irish Dancemaster from a friend in my area - the best $600 I've ever spent.
Learning any instrument is a solitary experience - you have to spend time in the shed - eventually you'll be ready to come out of the shed and play with other tuners on youtube.
It is true that a high quality instrument makes learning a lot easier. In my experience, I have been well served by my Irish dancemaster. I have played a Casta Dinn and was amazed at how it felt, but I don't believe starting with an entry level box has held me back.
Become a monster player on an entry level box such as a Hohner or Dancemaster and then you'll just be that much better on a pro line box.
I looked at the Connolly site. First time I have seen it. Seems like a 'Rube Goldberg' system in terms of complexity. But I suppose if one got into it might be more straightforward than it looks. Threewood-di you use it?
Great little machines, those. Alright, the bellows are stiff (and probably wouldn't endure much loosening up before leaks start to appear), the tuning's usually off and their a bit awkward in grown-up-sized hands, but for under £20, it's got to be worth it, if only for a bit of a laugh.
at present my favourite box for playing out is a hohner pokerwork b/c
my first box (nearly 40 yrs ago) was a pokerwork (not the same one)
the first pokerwork put me off box for 20 years
only when I'd bought a good box and developed strength and accuracy could I go back to pokerwork mechanics and get results
the good box players you see who play black dots and such have probably been playing them for their whole lives and have had a few decades to get used to hohner's product
if you're starting later in life you need all the help you can get and a good easy box is the best way to get it.
otherwise, as I said before, go for a small 12-bass bayan - I would guess it would give good results for Irish music
Zip, I found Damien Connolly's tutorial very helpful. Five years into playing the box I'm progressing and still learning! I'm fortunate to have Damien as a friend, neighbor, session leader and Catskill tutor, unlike our friend Breqwas in Russia.
BTW, for tinwhistlers and flute players there's C&F (and you'd better ask dumb newbie questions there, not here), for concertina - concertina.net, fiddlers seem to gather here. Is there any place for accordion players?
Is there anyon here who started playing a box year or two ago, and with no previous accordion background? Could you send me some samples of your playing, maybe with some comments, just to know what to expect? Use a private message if you're shy
> Another thought: if you can't afford a 3-voice box, don't
> despair. You may like the sound of them played solo, but in
> my experience, in a session or a band setting, other players
> will probably appreciate _not_ having that lower octave
> sounding. An accordion can too easily dominate or drown
> out other instruments.
Hmm. Good piano accordions have some sort of reed-controlling buttons on them, that can turn off the reeds you don't want to hear. Is there smth like that on irish boxes, at least high-end ones?
> First I think you'll be surprised. Once you get in the loop you
> will find other box players.
Well... I don't think so. The ITM community here is very small, everyone knows everyone, and you can't hide such thing as an irish button box And I don't think there's anyone who plays it outside the community.
Actually, there is an instrument which is very similar to irish box nearby - the ukranian button box. The same weird tuning with different sounds for pull/push, 12 basses, 23 buttons. But ukranian folk music is a completely different story.
To find out what tuning system a diatonic box has, find the tonic (key note) of each row. This is always (AFAIK) played on the press (when closing the bellows).
Normally this is located as follows:
On a 2-row box with 21 melody buttons, this will normally be on the 3rd button, or occasionally the 4th button from the top (chin end) of the box.
On a 2-row box with 23 buttons, it will be on the 4th button.
Sound this note and identify with your tuner or another instrument, and do the same with the other row(s). That's all there is to it.
Another way is to play 3 or more buttons on a row at the same time, again on the press. This will sound a major chord of the home key.
The convention is to refer to the outer row first, e.g. on a B/C, the B row is the outer row.
BTW Joe I've never heard of anyone varying the arrangement of the lowest buttons on a 23-button C#/D or other semitone-apart box. What would be the point? It's not as if you need any accidentals...
Poster of the video told me that the name of the box player is Mike Gleeson, and that the video description says "recorded in Brosna on the 6th April 2008".
Becoming a button box player
Becoming a button box player
I'm thinking of getting an irish-style button box. If I do, I'll be the only guy playing the thing in the city and one of the two in the country (another one is in 1000 km). I never played any accordions before, but have some experience in ITM - two years of playing a tinwhistle and listening the ITM CDs, a bunch of tunes in my head and (some) understanding of the music (I hope).
I do need some advice.
First, is it worth trying, being in complete isolation? There are some good ITM players here, but no box/concertina players, and no sessions. Should I take a regular piano accordion, or continental chromatic button accordion (better known here in one of its versions, "the bayan") instead of irish-style box? You can get a used bayan or accordion for small money here, and there are teachers (but not for ITM, of course). I like the sound of irish button box more, but others are still cool.
Second, if i decide to take the irish one, which one should I take?
The choice of a key is simple - B/C. All tutors I found (e.g. here: http://buttonbox.com/learn-to-play-accordion.html#irish) are for B/C, and I need tutors, as I have no teacher.
Which box do I need? I'm from the world of tinwhistles, where you get a high-end instrument for $150 or both high-end and collector's item for $400 (yep, I do own a copeland), so the prices of accordions make me shudder. Also it looks like they all are almost as different as tinwhistles are in their sound. E.g.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Va0ojp-Dk - this is one sort of sound, somewhat "plain". I like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w14SDHBUzsY - this is another, "full" one. I like it even more. Does he have two reeds octave apart for each note?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esAhsMR0kVg - third one. I don't like it.
What makes the difference? How should I choose my instrument, what to ask for? Note that I can't come to the shop and test them all, I can only choose one and order it by mail.
Third. How to study? There are tutors to understand the tecnique and there is lots of great ITM music to understand the music. Is that enough? With tinwhistle I had all the same, but there also were some good tinwhistle players around, and I could ask questions.
Any advice or comments, relevant or irrelevant, are welcome.
# Posted on May 31st 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
my experience has been that learning the box is a solitary affair so don't let local circumstances bother you.
B/C is a hard road but if you've got the time and the stamina its the best.
tutor book sare at best of very limited value. you're better off working it out for yourself - the most important thing is to understand the rhythm of the music - if you've got this already then you've got a head start
spend time with a keyboard diagram and a pencil and paper
you need an instrument that plays easily - that is to say, the keys aren't stiff, the bellows aren't stiff and the reeds speak quickly.
unless you're very lucky and get a good used box to learn on, you'll need to spend seroius money to get a cairdin or a castagnari if you want to play well before you die of old age.
lesser boxes will hold you back - as I know to my cost.
the money you spend on a good box you have a chance of earning back, but you can never recover the years wasted on a low quality instrument
you might as well get it by by mail order - most shops that sell boxes don't have anyone on the staff who can actually play one ( a B/C that is), so you'll not be getting any expertise for the price you pay there
if bayans are cheap it might be a good idea to try one first - particularly if you can get a small light model with a left hand side light enough to let you put some punch into your tunes
good luck
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Becoming a button box player
Clip 1: 2-voice box (2 reeds per note).
Clips 2 & 3 are both 3-voice boxes with one reed sounding an octave below the others.
I'd recommend you get a 2-voice box to start with - lighter and cheaper. I would disagree with millionyears' advice and say, don't spend thousands of euros until you know you are going to make the cut as a box player.
I'd suggest a Hohner Morgane, which is available in B/C tuning, or if your budget doesn't run to that, an Erica
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Becoming a button box player
... as I was saying (fecking laptop keyboards) an Erica or a Double-Ray.
If millionyears is right and it's a solitary road (more or less true in my case though I've had very useful advice along the road) then you might also consider C#/D because the learning curve in the initial stages is less steep, and it's also a fine system, just as valid as B/C despite the absence of tutors.
Good luck!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Becoming a button box player
i agree with the comments that it's a long, hard road. however, i have a different two cents on the advisability of trying to learn two-row diatonic irish accordion, particularly if you start down the b/c path, completely independently. it's possible, but you can save years of frustration and unnecessarily slow progress by making it your business by hook or by crook to aggressively search out master b/c teachers who know how to teach and explain technique including fingering approaches, bellows approaches, getting a full tone out of the box on both the push and the pull, etc........many master-level traditional players are wonderful "teachers": for purposes of being in the same room and watching them play and/or hearing them talk about interpretation, feeling, swing, etc. however, this is not the same thing as a gifted technique teacher who is an adept "explainer" about tone, fingering, basses, etc. people like tim collins & michael o'raghallahaigh are famed for being in this category on concertina, not sure who is on box. you don't need to see such a person constantly, but as someone who did not have this, and was too much of a greenhorn to understand that box workshops that did only tune-learning-by-ear were a complete waste of time, i would insist that for two-row b/c box, making it your business to seek out such teachers and do whatever it takes to spend at least some time with them, is an investment well worth making.
likewise, getting the most responsive box (by that i mean responsive reeds, buttons, bellows) is also an investment well worth making. it's a great instrument, but it has an undeserved reputation as being easy to learn. have fun!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by ceemonster
Re: Becoming a button box player
Learning the box in isolation isn't impossible.
I've been using the John Williams tutor DVD/book tutor to learn the B/C. I found it got me up to speed pretty quickly. In about a month and a half I've gotten through about half the tunes in that tutor as well as a few tunes in an Irish mandolin tutor I have.
I bought "The Box" tutor book also and found it quite useful, though the first tunes were'nt as easy to remember as the JW tutor. There are plenty of tunes left in the book that I haven't even tried yet.
The box I'm learning on is a Paolo Soprani Elite 1. I like the sound- I believe it's 3 voice- but I do find it a bit heavy at times. I love the feel of the B/C, and wouldn't trade it for a PA or Chromatic.
Dealing with "The Button Box" was very easy and efficient. They always answered e-mails quickly, and gave what I thought was good advise.
I decided to buy a B/C (as opposed to a C#/D) firstly; because the tutors are mostly, or all in that tuning and secondly because there was an instrument available in my neck of the woods.
I'f you're planning to buy new I wouln't worry. But if you're buying used its important to know what you're getting. Dried leather reed covers, moldy smelling bellows, missing reeds, and sticky keys aren't nice. Accordion repair isn't cheap, at least not around here. I had a quote to refurbish an old Hohner CF Club, and the price would have nearly bought a new
Castagnari Lilly model.
As i've just started, I can't give you straight up advise, but these were (and are) my experiences as a beginner box player. So far I think I've avoided making any costly mistakes.
Best of Luck!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by anvilcoyote
Re: Becoming a button box player
yeah clip one you've got there he's using a 2-voice box with both the sets of reeds tuned to exactly the same pitch. this is called dry tuning.
clip 2 he's using 3 voices, 2 in the same octave tuned dry and one tuned an octave below.
clip 3 he's using 3 probably, with 2 in the same octave but tuned slightly (10-20% of a semitone) apart to give it some tremolo and one tuned an octave down.
the other main option is to have a 2 voice with both sets in the same octave but with a little bit of tremolo. this is a much lighter sound than clip 3 but a bit fuller than clip 1 and might be what you want in a 2 voice box.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Becoming a button box player
> by hook or by crook to aggressively search out master b/c
> teachers who know how to teach
One more time: I'm in russia. Nearest place where good players are is western europe, or, more likely, the british isles. Going there = lots of money and visa issues. Anyway, it is possible. Should I double the money I pay for the box and do that? When should I do that - at the very beginning, or later on? Will the week or two of having a teacher change the things?
> you'll need to spend seroius money to get a cairdin or a
> castagnari if you want to play well before you die of old age.
Oh. Yes, that's a serious money. That's my shopping budget for 3-4 monthes. To be honest, I don't have THAT much... Is that SO important?
You also all speak about long hard road. But look, there's uillean pipes, there is fiddle, which both take years before you get some descent sound. The box looks less evil than these two. Or am I wrong?
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
> clip 2 he's using 3 voices, 2 in the same octave tuned dry and one tuned an octave below.
Looks like that it's what I want. I don't like that deep vibrato of PA.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
Checked the price of 3-voice boxes. Damn...
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
You do NOT need a Cairdin or a Castagnari to learn to play box. Sure, they are nice, but there are lots of fantastic players all over the world who have never been able to afford anything more than a humble Hohner.
What anvilcoyote said about the perils of buying a used box in poor condition is very true.
I'd suggest you get in touch with a trustworthy repairman/dealer in used boxes such as Theo Gibb ( http://www.theboxplace.co.uk/ ). Tell him what you are looking for and he'll probably be able to fix you up with something quite quickly, maybe for around £400.
Don't wish to start the endless C#/D vs. B/C discussion again - there are a zillion threads on the topic on here already BUT I would say that, as you are a whistle player, you would find having a D row as your home row much more intuitive than a C row. And, if you're learning in isolation, it will certainly be easier.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Becoming a button box player
PS box is probably easier than uilleann pipes or fiddle and certainly easier to get a good sound out of. It's easy to get a few simple tunes sounding reasonably OK within a few weeks or even a few days.
But to master the thing? This takes a lot of time and practice. Less time than the pipes or fiddle I would think but definitely years of concentrated hard work.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Becoming a button box player
A button box is whole lot less to drag around than the usual bayan. Getting a B/C box will mean that all the B/C button box tutorials will be useful to you and you should get *all* of them if you're working in isolation so you will have a chance to develop as thorough an understanding as possible of how to play. If you come here for advice you'll get everything from "use all your fingers on the keyboard" to "never use more than three fingers" and often you won't know if the advice comes from a credible, skilled traditional box player or a ten year old first-year trumpet student. If you can't find a teacher then you'll need to watch closely videos of well-known, skilled players that play your box keyboard system and what they do will guide you. If you want to learn from intuition, that's a different path.
Like Jeeves wrote, you don't need to spend 4000USD for a decent button box for learning. Any of these would be fine. http://www.irishdancemaster.com/prices.html How much it would cost you to get one of them to Russia would depend on your connections.
There's nothing wrong with learning the bayan if you can get a good one considerably cheaper than a good button box. Having a teacher show you how to maneuver around the keyboard is important. A classical bayan teacher is likely to be rigid in insisting on methods of practice and that would use up time otherwise applied to learning tunes. If you're musical enough, dedicated enough, patient enough, attentive enough, and have access to a large number of recordings of Irish music played by skilled players of fiddles, pipes, flutes, whistles, concertinas, and accordions eventually you'll learn how to manipulate the bayan to make the notes flow as they should in Irish tunes, especially if you have developed correct technique successfully on whistle.
As far as the sound of the bayan goes, it is possible to tune a bayan's reeds to have any degree of tremolo (tremolo, rather than "vibrato" is the term that describes the sound of accordion reed sets; "wet" means more tremolo and "dry" means less) or almost no tremolo. Continue to improve on the whistle. It will help you to develop phrasing on the bayan.
The original poster of this thread <http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16449>; plays a continental button accordion. Watch his video, read all of the thread's comments then think about it all.
After all, you *can* play whistle and highly-skilled whistle playing of Irish traditional tunes is a difficult and worthy accomplishment.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Becoming a button box player
My turn to chime in. I think I wrote this same post 2 1/2 years ago.
First I think you'll be surprised. Once you get in the loop you will find other box players. I think someone said early learning box is solitary. It really is. You have to get your mind and focus in order before you want to expose people to your playing. Probably one reason accordion gets a bad rap. People try to 'play in' too early in the learning process and sound like c**p despite their best intentions...no because they are bad players, they are inexperienced.
On the box. Ditch the idea of learning PA. (As a former PA player, I won't go into the relative instuments merits. It is a wonderful instrument.) The PA is a very different instrument from the Box. If you want to learn Box. Jump in with both feet as it were. It is complex, but in many ways very simple and surprising efficient to play.
You can do well for reasonable cost if you are careful. At all costs avoid the cheap chinese and eastern european instuments. Saltarelle Boube is a nice start (I have to get that in because my teacher is John Williams and he sells that box as well as the aforereferenced DVD-both very good btw). But at your stage you will probably use the DVD for a month or so, go away (actually, there is an amazing amount of wisdom in 'The Box' learning book you have and you should use it until you are ready to retrun to John's DVD it after 6 months. Tremendous amount of info.) Not that John's DVD is difficult. But you must listen to it carefully and appreciate the little things he gets in there. EVerytime you relisten to it you will hear something you missed the times before. He is very knowledgable.
Michael at Irish Dancemaster makes a great traditional box from what I am told (flat keyboard 21 treble 8 bass) in his IrishDancemeaster line. In my case, Michael helped me get my first box in order. He is a master. You mention being overseas though. I don't know what shipping will be since IDM is in Florida USA.
On the higher end, the Castignari's are magnificant boxes. Tone quality is a thing to behold. As are the Vander Aas (made I belive in South America). Bertrand Galliards for the iconocalsts among us. Also magnificent tone.
There are some proponents of Hohners here. The ones I have heard do sound very nice. Said to be affordable. But If you are serious spend a few extra sheckles. its worht it in the long run.
If you can...find a teacher. Nothing beats having someone to give you feedback. In the absence, buy yourself a recording device. A very humbling, unsympathtic sort of teacher.
As I learned (accused by Herself as being ADHD), you must be patient with the box. Learn the keyboard. Learn the bellows. And learn the air button. But play slowly, get your phrasing.
But you know. i
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: Becoming a button box player
Another thought: if you can't afford a 3-voice box, don't despair. You may like the sound of them played solo, but in my experience, in a session or a band setting, other players will probably appreciate _not_ having that lower octave sounding. An accordion can too easily dominate or drown out other instruments.
I like three voices - but all in the same octave. Two voices is just fine, especially when tuned with the exact shade of tremolo that tickles your musical nerve-endings.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Becoming a button box player
But you know......... I have already said too much. Read the posts before. Several of these folks have helped my out and are great sources of counsel.
I notice the Reverend and Ilig are missing. Good cop and Bad cop.
They are both worth listening to
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: Becoming a button box player
Check out Damien Connolly's Tutor http://www.damienconnolly.com/tutor.html.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Threewood
Re: Becoming a button box player
I recently owned a Double-Ray and it's a very nice box (sold it to buy another box). It was adjusted for faster play but I didn't find myself fighting it like so many say. Obviously it's not the Italian sports car that a Castagnari is but it's no slouch, either. I thought that a friend's Morgane was a very nice box for the money. If you can find one on the used market for under $700 then it's a steal. Saltarelle Irish Bouebes are excellent value for the money, and in some ways play like a much more expensive box would. I owned a Cairdin very briefly but sold it (to a member here!
HI Steve) in order to relocate. Nice box, but the Antonelli reeds were a little soft spoken. I really didn't have much time to get to know it.
There's a Double-Ray Deluxe in B/C tuning on Ebay right now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290319916855
Same thing as a regular Double-Ray but you get 12 unisonoric basses instead of eight bisonoric basses ( = same bass note both ways instead of different tones on push and pull), and three medium voices for a fuller sound without potentially irritating any other players with an offensive low reed. You can fish around this site to brush up on the bass vs. no bass arguments but it's the extra voice that I would want in that box...
Yes a crap shoot of sorts but looks like a nice one that will probably finish way cheaper than a new standard (Chinese) Double-Ray. That much being said, if you're keen on paying attention to Ebay, there have been some positively _dizzying_ bargains going down lately.
Here's my two cents about learning B/C: what Jeeves Tones said about the learning curve in both systems is absolutely correct.
Cross-row play in keys like G D and A across a B and a C row takes a lot of rewiring. After a while it's intuitive but if you have to learn by yourself without a human tutor then it will seem much more difficult. As a whistle player you'll find learning the ropes in C#/D much easier. Once you're ahead of the game you can still play another half-step system, and you get different keys. I've always found that early success is very encouraging and either makes or breaks my interest in an instrument or (keyboard system).
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by gravelwalks
Re: Becoming a button box player
This is a great thread --
I started on a one row, 7 button toy accordion -- I could play maybe a dozen or so tunes. This was a toy but it gave me the basic understanding of the push/pull system that is the same as a harmonica.
The main thing is learning to play the basic diatonic scale and a few simple tunes like Kesh - I think my show stopper was Homes of Donnegal -
Once I felt like I had taken this one row toy button box as far as I could I bought an Irish Dancemaster from a friend in my area - the best $600 I've ever spent.
Learning any instrument is a solitary experience - you have to spend time in the shed - eventually you'll be ready to come out of the shed and play with other tuners on youtube.
It is true that a high quality instrument makes learning a lot easier. In my experience, I have been well served by my Irish dancemaster. I have played a Casta Dinn and was amazed at how it felt, but I don't believe starting with an entry level box has held me back.
Become a monster player on an entry level box such as a Hohner or Dancemaster and then you'll just be that much better on a pro line box.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Reeds Munson
Re: Becoming a button box player
I looked at the Connolly site. First time I have seen it. Seems like a 'Rube Goldberg' system in terms of complexity. But I suppose if one got into it might be more straightforward than it looks. Threewood-di you use it?
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: Becoming a button box player
"I started on a one row, 7 button toy accordion"
Great little machines, those. Alright, the bellows are stiff (and probably wouldn't endure much loosening up before leaks start to appear), the tuning's usually off and their a bit awkward in grown-up-sized hands, but for under £20, it's got to be worth it, if only for a bit of a laugh.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Becoming a button box player
"their a bit awkward"
*they're* a bit awkward.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Becoming a button box player
hi breqas:
about the cairdin/castagnari stuff.
at present my favourite box for playing out is a hohner pokerwork b/c
my first box (nearly 40 yrs ago) was a pokerwork (not the same one)
the first pokerwork put me off box for 20 years
only when I'd bought a good box and developed strength and accuracy could I go back to pokerwork mechanics and get results
the good box players you see who play black dots and such have probably been playing them for their whole lives and have had a few decades to get used to hohner's product
if you're starting later in life you need all the help you can get and a good easy box is the best way to get it.
otherwise, as I said before, go for a small 12-bass bayan - I would guess it would give good results for Irish music
once again
good luck
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Becoming a button box player
Zip, I found Damien Connolly's tutorial very helpful. Five years into playing the box I'm progressing and still learning! I'm fortunate to have Damien as a friend, neighbor, session leader and Catskill tutor, unlike our friend Breqwas in Russia.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Threewood
Re: Becoming a button box player
BTW, for tinwhistlers and flute players there's C&F (and you'd better ask dumb newbie questions there, not here), for concertina - concertina.net, fiddlers seem to gather here. Is there any place for accordion players?
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
> After all, you *can* play whistle and highly-skilled whistle
And I don't think there's anyone who plays it outside the community.
> playing of Irish traditional tunes is a difficult and worthy
> accomplishment.
Well. I can play it, but I can't play it good. It sounds flat and dull in my hands. Like that: http://lirinis.com/breqwas/me/2009-03-29/02%20cooleys.mp3
Is there anyon here who started playing a box year or two ago, and with no previous accordion background? Could you send me some samples of your playing, maybe with some comments, just to know what to expect? Use a private message if you're shy
> Another thought: if you can't afford a 3-voice box, don't
> despair. You may like the sound of them played solo, but in
> my experience, in a session or a band setting, other players
> will probably appreciate _not_ having that lower octave
> sounding. An accordion can too easily dominate or drown
> out other instruments.
Hmm. Good piano accordions have some sort of reed-controlling buttons on them, that can turn off the reeds you don't want to hear. Is there smth like that on irish boxes, at least high-end ones?
> First I think you'll be surprised. Once you get in the loop you
> will find other box players.
Well... I don't think so. The ITM community here is very small, everyone knows everyone, and you can't hide such thing as an irish button box
Actually, there is an instrument which is very similar to irish box nearby - the ukranian button box. The same weird tuning with different sounds for pull/push, 12 basses, 23 buttons. But ukranian folk music is a completely different story.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
My 2pence worth, Do not take up the button box. Try a flute, fiddle or maybe the pipes. Much more appreciated in the ITM community.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by balledfan
Re: Becoming a button box player
There's always http://www.melodeon.net/
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by juniper
Re: Becoming a button box player
BTW. How do you tell a B/C box from a C#/D, if you don't know, but have a tuner to check what note is what?
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/BC23modernbass.gif
http://info.melodeon.net/files/site/CD21modernbass.gif
A 23-button C#/D will have the two extra treble buttons on the left side of the rows and those buttons may vary.
There are bass layouts other than those shown in these diagrams and all boxes can be customized.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: Becoming a button box player
To find out what tuning system a diatonic box has, find the tonic (key note) of each row. This is always (AFAIK) played on the press (when closing the bellows).
Normally this is located as follows:
On a 2-row box with 21 melody buttons, this will normally be on the 3rd button, or occasionally the 4th button from the top (chin end) of the box.
On a 2-row box with 23 buttons, it will be on the 4th button.
Sound this note and identify with your tuner or another instrument, and do the same with the other row(s). That's all there is to it.
Another way is to play 3 or more buttons on a row at the same time, again on the press. This will sound a major chord of the home key.
The convention is to refer to the outer row first, e.g. on a B/C, the B row is the outer row.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Becoming a button box player
BTW Joe I've never heard of anyone varying the arrangement of the lowest buttons on a 23-button C#/D or other semitone-apart box. What would be the point? It's not as if you need any accidentals...
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Becoming a button box player
Ah, yes. The thing that made me go into that is this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi5oYNql5AE
Poster of the video told me that the name of the box player is Mike Gleeson, and that the video description says "recorded in Brosna on the 6th April 2008".
Does anyone know that guy?
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by breqwas
Re: Becoming a button box player
May I recommend playing the 1 row 10 button Melodeon/accordeon
Get a Hohner HA 114 either in D (preferred), or C
Lots of great music has been played on these and many great 2 row players still play them such as Brendan Begley (sp)
And there are one row players who play nothing else
I prefer 1 row playing.
# Posted on August 3rd 2009 by bohemian