Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Here is a great piping from Paddy Keenan. But the guitar significantly spoiled the music and rhythm. Most Irish guitar accompaniment is simply unmusical and terrible, and spoils everything. Where the hell guitars became introduced from into Irish traditional music? IMHO, the way 99% of guitar players accompany reels and jigs are totally wrong. They have not the slightest clue how to accompany real dance music. In most other folk music, the guitarists play a great chugging rhytm perfect for the dance tunes. Why guitarist for Irish traditional music have no clue how to accompany dance music?
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Bit of a sweeping generalization there nemethmik but lots of trad guitarists are rubbish, mainly because they don't listen to enough trad. Very like many melody players really.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I think it's a byproduct of the versatility of the guitar itself - guitarists are pulled in many directions by many different styles, and unfortunately, the art of playing trad or flamenco or tango or gypsy jazz or what have you well takes a good deal of specialization that many of them aren't willing to attempt. So they just flail along instead. Bogman is absolutely 100% correct about melody players not listening to enough traditional music.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
speaking as a guitar player, all I can really tell you is that we are generally too busy giving our phone numbers out to the pretty girls that hang all over us to be able to devote enough time to learning the proper rhythms for the jigs and reels
a man must have his priorities in this day and age
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I would be interested in knowing what tracks or clips you are talking about? .
Also why you think that a 'great chugging rhythm ' is what is required all the time?It certainly isn't in my opinion.It all depends on where you are playing and with whom, what for and what tunes ,
As an experienced Irish Set dancer I find a great chugging rhythm can spoil the dance.
Although I remember going to see the piper you mentioned many years ago and being under whelmed by whom he chose to accompany him .
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I am shocked to learn that some ITM guitar accompanists are poor players, that strum and fret their hour upon the stage, and then are heard no more.
This is no less than a crisis, and it's reasonable to insist that melody players begin paying a tax to fund lessons for the poor accompanists. Some of these sausage-fingered klutzes were additionally burdened by being born into tin-eared families of non-Irish descent. Others cannot think quickly enough to handle the wild, blood-stirring "reel." These poor players need your help and they need it now.
My Good Player Revenue Enhancement proposal ensures that the Session of Tomorrow will be brighter and smarter and greener and this vision—which will benefit pubs all around our CO2, flu, and Martian-threatened planet—is only the beginning. I urge you to devote more time toward practicing (or, even practising), and not wasting your time reading deeply and critically. Thank you for those pleasant genuflections, and I bless you all.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
The role of the rhythm player in ITM is not like that of the rhythm player in any other traditional music, precisely because ITM evolved in the absence of chordal, counterpoint, or percussive accompaniment, and therefore the melodic tradition evolved technique for spelling out the rhythm explicitly and continuously in the tune. The tune is the rhythm; it tells you where the beat is and where the harmony is. Although the creation of ambiguities in both is part of the art of the playing, the ways in which a fiddler or other melody player creates those ambiguities depend precisely on the expectation that they will spell out the beat.
This means, of course, that the accompanist cannot rely on the techniques that work in other traditional music. Since there is no real tradition to rely on, only a fairly recent set of habits, and there are so many styles of melody playing, with distinctive rhythmic habits, there is no clear "right" approach to accompaniment in this music. So, the poor accompanist is in a difficult position, with no default position to rely on they must resort to, as Bogman is the latest to point out, listening. Not just listening to a lot of trad music, although that is indispensible, but also listening to the person they're playing with and finding the place where the right chord should be played correctly.
All of this is why I don't play a lot of accompaniment any more. It's a lot more fun to play the tunes!
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I think a new tax to publically fund lessons for backers is too socialist for me. We conservatives believe the guitar players should be simply held accountable. A bit of personal responsibility will go a long way here.
It is my firm belief that it is the height of the Nanny State to subsidize lessons. Here in America, these people may very well be of German decent and thus completely hopeless. We must let the free market sort this out on its own.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
good point, Pure Drops. All these slags against the guitar players are really just made up by fiddle players with nothing better to do on a Saturday night
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I figured so. And you know it's not that I don't appreciate your idea for a solution to this problem, but I'm just too much of a "free market" man to go for any new taxes
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I think there are many guitar players who do not realise that is often best not to play on certain rhythms. Just 'cos you have one does not mean you have to use it all the time.
I generally prefer bodhran rhythms to be played on a bodhran.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Nate, I concur with your libertarian analysis of the issue. However, we both know full well that the 'powers that be' will never allow the free market to truly operate without their interference behind the scenes. They speak of allowing the natural removal of ham-fisted strummers to occur, then they ruthlessly prop up failed strummers behind the scenes, with public funds no less!
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Just for my tuppence worth. I don't and have never played guitar (or other accompaniment instrument) but I think that the chugging is definitely a "no no". This is the type of accompaniment that would have been heard in the era before the Bothy Band and I don't know whether it came from big bands, jazz or country & western. To my mind it ruins Irish traditional music by putting it into a straight jacket so that it sounds sort of blue grassey or jazzy. However, from around the time of the Bothy band, more backers seemed to have developed an empathy for traditional music where the chords and rhythm seemed to follow the melody. I may not be expressing this in a scientific or musical way but for trad the melody is "king" and everything else must be subordinate to it.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
SWFL, I do recognize that in practice we will never be able to rely on the free market to solve this. I realize all too well that the "free market" is a thing of the past and we'll no more get it back than we'll get back our dead ancestors, but we can still apply the basic priciples of personal responsibility and limited government to reach a solution.
I for one do not want to live in a world where banjo players are sitting around, backing tunes, and strapping themselves with my tax money!
...and if we don't nip this in the bud, I'm afraid we will be saddled with government sponsored spoons players, so let's just not be so quick to change the current policy without a period of public debate
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Nate / SWFL—
Yes, Milton O'Friedman, in his "Free to Strum," and Friedrich McHayek in his "Road to Serfdomvarna" both argued stringently against melody player taxes. But their antiquated notions of individual freedom and personal responsibility have no place in the Brave New Session.
Poor players deserve more than your barely suppressed guffaws, your sneers, and your pity. They deserve 50% of YOUR pint money, 50% of YOUR chair time, and yes, 50% of YOUR well-honed chops. Sessions are not meritocracies—crap players should receive your rapt attention then your tearful applause, even as they butcher The Kesh (which they slaved to learn over decades of half-hearted sludging while watching their NetFlix-rented copy of "My Left Foot").
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I'd prefer something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlv8PUyc1HQ
Why most Irish accompanyment guitarists want to do (much)more than this Cajun woman? "Less is more", does it make sense in Irish traditional music accompanyment?
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Well nemethmik,
it may have to do with the fact that Cajun music is entirely a different genre. Less is often more, yes, but that sort of backing - which I think it lovely for its context - would actually annoy the crap out of a lot of the session folk I play with. For Irish music, in my opinion, it's a bit heavy-handed. And my ear tells me she misses some of the changes, but maybe it's just right for Cajun music, which I know next to nothing about.
Can you perhaps be more specific as to what you're looking for? I mean, Irish guitar backing is super diverse. Maybe you simply haven't heard the right players for you. Who have you listened to and what would you rather they be doing?
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
nemethmik - thanks for putting up the link you were talking about. Gee, I don't know the guitarist, but he did all the right sorts of things - he supported the melody without overwhelming it in the areas of interest, rhythm, and volume, he got the changes right, and he obviously knew the tunes well enough and was listening.
Perhaps you'd like a different genre of music, or perhaps some dancing lessons? Myself I don't dance well- that's why I play the instrument...
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
nemethmik,
I agree with you about this particular piece. Sounds to me like the guitarist is slightly behind the tempo, at least for the first half -- I didn't listen to the rest of it because I was kind of put off by the guitar. Felt like Keenan had a nice kind of pop going on that the guitar missed altogether.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Great music, indeed, Nemethmik. But a lot of Irish tunes have a complexity that would not be well-served by that sort of accompaniment. As has been said already, Irish traditional music is a complete food in itself - in addition to melody, it has all the rhythm and implied harmony it needs without a 'chugging' guitar or piano to help it along.
'Less is more' can certainly apply in Irish music. There is often a tendency to overcomplicate accompaniment with a barrage of jazzy chords, substitutions, cross rhythms, you name it - there are a lot of very accomplished guitarists (and bouzouki and keyboard players) around the trad scene, with a very wide palette, but not necessarily having the discrimination to know when and how to use what. On the other hand, there are many who, to my ears, oversimplify accompaniment, glossing over some of the beautiful shades to be found in traditional tunes.
Since the guitar is a relative newcomer to traditional music, it is inevitable that guitarists will bring in influences from other genres - and there is nothing wrong with that, so long as they are familiar enough with the tunes to know what is appropriate.
Like Bogman and Jon K say, it's all about listening - listening to the genre and listening to the individuals you play with.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Fair point, Nem. I agree that Mr. Keenan could have managed perfectly well without an accompanist (That's what the regulators are for, no?). I've seen Paddy Keenan three times, two of them with a below-par guitar accompanist (far below the standard of the one in this video), turned up too loud. I get the impression Paddy Keenan is not the sort to hog centre-stage.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Well nemethmik there is a place for that .
I think it may be the new NPU headquarters in Dublin
I would suggest loooking at the many you tube clips for Liz Carrol or Martin Hayes for a better view and sound .
Without much umpa umpa as in the cajun lady.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Jmbu
> the guitarist is slightly behind the tempo
Oops, I have no problem with this guitarist's capabilities and tempo. I do not like what he does, too agressively banging his strings that comes into an "unstructured" stream of sounds, overwhelming the performance. For example, I can hardly hear the regulators when the piper plays them.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
...BTW, the other time I saw him play was in the piping recital at Willie Clancy week. He had literally just arrived from The States, straight out of the taxi from the airport onto the stage, without even chance to tune his pipes. But he was persuaded to play anyway. He made his apologies and started to play. There's a famous song that describes the sound that came out.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
" an "unstructured" stream of sounds, overwhelming the performance. For example, I can hardly hear the regulators when the piper plays them. "
How can you judge from that clip? It's a compressed youtube clip recorded on an amateur mic in a very echoey room. Of course it's going to sound sh!te.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
nemethmik
I did wonder I admit about the whole amplification set up they were using and also if the guitarist and Paddy had any fallback speakers . How well could the guitarist hear himself? Would explain a lot I think.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I'm wrecking my brains here to try and remember when I first came across a guitar player backing Irish trad. Back in the fifties some ceili bands had a double bass which in turn became an electric bass. I think the first time I came across a rhythm guitar player backing Irish Trad was Tommy Power who use to back his father, fiddle player Jimmy Power in the Favourite around 1967. However I'm sure somebody will come up with an earlier example.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I saw a John Carty concert a few years back and he brought along a guitar player who was slightly less than adequate. I would’ve enjoyed it more without the guitar. Maybe the really good guitarists expect too much pay to make it worthwhile on a small-time tour.
I also wondered at the time if maybe John was being a bit reactionary against Modern ITM Performance Standards. He made no effort at all toward any kind of stage presence or engagement with the audience and he often threw away the ending of a tune, as if to say he wasn’t taking any of this seriously.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
If you could stuff a piano in a case and carry it into a pub, wouldn't then the complaints be about piano players?
There are plenty of bad back up players. Primarily it is because all of us think we are better players than we are - and we're not afraid to share that with the group.
For bad back up examples - listen to Michael Coleman recordings. Or how about the bouzouki player on Karen Tweed's tune recordings. Basically, not knowing the changes comes from not knowing/understanding the tunes - and not having a plan about where they should go.
I'm not in favor of the type of playing offered by Ms Savoy, although, I'm sure, she's very capable as a cajun guitarist, but not on the level of David Doucet (Beausoleil) - who'd brilliant.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
It should be noted, however, that in these clips (Dunlea, Sproule, Doyle) the guitarists are playing in DADGAD - but they don't always play in DADGAD, sometimes they're in Drop D and sometimes in Spanish Tuning (EADGBE) depending on the set and the changes. Sometimes in other tunings of their choosing.
This is why it's important for back up players to know their material - and believe me, it makes it more fun and more interesting for everyone involved.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Mr Bannerman, your spot on IMO sir.
Trad accompaniment is esoteric at best, perception, or rather ones preconceived perception/idea being the random element. IE what the melody player and the listener want to hear from accompaniment is the radical in the equation and as it’s often different. Me, I have my style of approach that I bring to a tune when playing guitar or melody or melody on the guitar even. I’ve had my detractors in my time and when I sit in with those I give them more of what I think they want and less of what I want. By and large I just do my own thing, I just make it up as I go along (and that’s no kidding) and play to what I hear.
In ITM the tune, is the rhythm King? No, it’s the pulse of the tune that determines the rhythm and whilst to the uninitiated the rhythm may seem the same for any given tune each time played, the experienced player knows/hears the different emphasis that different players brings to that tune. So the pulse is King IMNSVHO, (just saying like). Many players can’t/will not/can’t hear/not even aware that it’s what drives the music/ get the pulse into their music and if not, how would they think an accompanist can provide meaningful accompaniment? If there is no point of reference we’re all adrift. Listening is the key for everybody but it’s not everybody that knows what to listen out for. I’ve suffered my fair share of crap accompanists in my time. I’m more chilled on this than most it seems but then again I don’t expect every tune to be a cracker.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Would it be sacrilege to admit that I find John Doyle's accompaniment about as pleasant as a jackhammer outside my bedroom window on a lovely summer morning when i have no reason not to stay in bed for a little while longer? Hearing him with Liz Carroll is like that - everything's perfect, except for this loud, insistent hammering sound that just won't stop.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I spend a lot of time accompanying tune players (on guitar) - both in sessions and as part of a ceilidh band. The key to it all, as far as I'm concerned, is: (a) to hold back at particular times and then let go a little (b) to try to create a judicious mix of emphasis and counterpoint (on the beat, off the beat, between the beat) so that the melody can sing.
Every tune is different and every player is different - so there's a huge amount of anticipation involved. "Chug-chug" as I think someone mentioned - is definitely NOT on for me! There are times when you can and should go hell for leather with the feel of the piece. An example is the "Dennis Murphy's/John Ryan's/Late Night Band" polka set. It's important to get the stops in the A part of John Ryan.s There's a lovely implied D to C chord change in the A part of the LNB Polka - and then you can come in with all flags flying on the Em chords in the B part.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Re the three videos; the guy on the first DOES seem to be trying to listen, but yet he's just "stirring the pudding" in his style. PLUS - he's too loud ? Not on my youtube.
The cajun woman - hey, there's a song about her - is doing just what Dance Music needs - have we forgotten that this is The Dance Music of Ireland as O'Neill labelled it ? Cajun music always has this strong rhythmic element.
John Doyle seems to be to have put most of what is needed insofar as we compare the three examples given. A little less strum, even though it IS nicely phrased and percussively damped, and a bit more bass-line and single-string work would be my preference, but hey, he's working with the best, if they like him I'm not the one who can complain.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Number one priority for accompanying tunes is to learn and know they tunes in the first place IMO. Many busk the tunes using the misconception that being knowledgeable in the genre in enough. Every tune requires an independent approach.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"Many busk the tunes using the misconception that being knowledgeable in the genre in enough."
In fact, IMHO, this is in fact more often than not sufficient. When accompanying tunes, I won't necessarily know every tune - but if there's anything unexpected, for the most part, that can be nailed 2nd time through - though truth to tell, that might not be guaranteed.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"Spanish tuning is often referred to as Open G."
??
"Would it be sacrilege to admit that I find John Doyle's accompaniment about as pleasant as a jackhammer outside my bedroom window on a lovely summer morning when i have no reason not to stay in bed for a little while longer?"
Not if that's what it sounds like to you. I happen to think he's a wizard on the guitar. But would I want him backing a session? Probably not, if he plays in the style that we hear in this video clip - but I've not heard him playing in a session, so I don't know to what extent he is able to adjust his style to suit the situation.
He has ideas coming out of his ears, so to speak, and imparts a very strong personal touch on the music, which, in my opinion, is welcome in a performance situation, but not necessarily in a session. I don't think it can be disputed that he is familiar with the tunes and listens intently to whomever he is accompanying, but his creative drive is so strong that his individuality is still very prominent.
The clip with Arty McGlynn, for me, represents everything that good guitar backing (and melody playing) should be. But I have heard studio recordings in which he does things that are not to my taste - that's just me.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"Would it be sacrilege to admit that I find John Doyle's accompaniment about as pleasant as a jackhammer outside my bedroom window on a lovely summer morning when i have no reason not to stay in bed for a little while longer?"
That's exactly what I thought when I heard John Doyle's playing on Tommy Peoples' "Wainting for a Call" CD. Luckily, Alec Finn provides accompaniments on more tracks than JD.
Standard: E A D G B E
Drop D: D A D G B E
Drop D: D A D G B D
DADGAD: D A D G A D
Fourths: E A D G C F
Lute: E A D F# B E
1/2-Step Down: Eb Ab Db Gb Bb Eb
Full-Step Down: D G C F A D
Open: D D A D F# A D
Big City: D A D F# A A
D Wahine: D A D F# B D
D Minor: D A D F A D
D Modal: D A D D A D
G 6: D G D G B E
Open: G D G D G B D
G Minor: D G D G Bb D
Open C: C G C G C E
C 6: C G C G A E
Baritone: B E A D F# B
Baritone: A D G C E A
Old Spanish: D G D G A E
Lute: E A D F# A E
D Modal: D A D G A D
Open: E E B E A B E
Bron Y Aur: C A C G C E
Parvardigar: C G C G C D
BP Modal: E B E E B E
New Standard: C G D A E G
Low C: C G D G A D
Shifted: E G# C# F# B E
Dropped: C C G C F A D
Slipknot: B F# B E G# C#
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Funny...Oldstrings..."Iris Nevins" is trying HARD to not write and repeat! I'll try not to repeat my probabaly altogether too weird for anyone theories on backing/accompanying. Like listening to good piano players etc. Things like you need to know the tunes or at least the structures and memorize the repeating patterns in the music, which will make it easier to play on the fly with anyone.
I started on guitar because that was what was in my house, period. I was a tune player before I knew what a chord was. There was no money to give me lessons, so I listened to fingerstyle players and copied them note by note. I actually have been able to teach guitar tunes to peopl who have never played a chord or touched a guitar, in the same way I taught myself. I don't do music theory speeches, I just teach them to listen and find things, and to learn the hand mechanics and a few little exercises, and they can do it the same way. it's all in listening and practice. It is hard work though and love of the music is what has to drive you. If you don't have that, forget it, it will never click.
Teaching backing is actually much harder than tunes, especially to someone who hasn't really digested the music and swallowed it whole. Too many guitar players pick it up figuring they can't cut it as a melody player, so they'll take up guitar. It is an incredibly difficult instrument for anyone who really explores it in depth, and never mind trying to accompany, that is at least as hard as playing melody to do it right. I think all the bad examples of playing out there prove this. Many guitar "bashers" who alternate two or three chords and hope for the best might be better as whistle players or mandolin or something where it's one note at a time and you know where you are going next.
Backing is so instinctual and the more I play, the more I truly believe that the hardest part of it is understanding each new melody player's phrasing and being able to adapt to it. That's a very vague thing to teach, maybe you can't teach it at all. You can teach chords and keys and timing, but how do you teach someone how to get into the melody player's mind and truly understand them on a very subtle level. A great backer like an Alec Finn can do this. Daithi Sproule, Donal Clancy, they are right there, as though they share a mind with whomever they are backing, as though they set aside their whole ego and selves and seem to focus entirely on the other player. That is a tough call that few backers can achieve. You don't even have to like their style, but when you see that connection, it is amazing if you think about it. How can you teach that in a workshop or on a DVD? John Doyle...not crazy about the style, but he sure knows exactly what he is doing, and has that connection thing going with the melody players and should be highly respected for that even if you are not fond of the style. Interesting thing too...the best backers can also play tunes pretty darned well... Clancy, Sproule, McManus, Bays, Doyle, Cahill.... every one of them can be a tune player when they feel like it. I don't think that's a coincidence. So maybe backers should learn tunes on something, anything, to truly understand the music.
OK enough...getting carried away.
By the way, that guitar player is John Walsh, and I am writing to defend the guy. I truly believe there is something off with the video camera where it's picking up parts of beats or something "clippy" is happening. Maybe just to the guitar, I don't know. The pipes come through OK. I have had this same thing happen when I have videoed music. Something about the range the guitar is sounding in, I think it is somehow not all being picked up and it's choppy.
I know John and we have had him at IAANJ with Paddy numerous times. He is never off. The guy is also, and few know, one of the true geniuses on fingerstyle guitar in the world. I am truly embarassed to play in front of him! Not really, because he is so incredibly nice, but he can play that guitar inside out and upside down. He doesn't get the exposure for his true genius on the instrument. His sound live is different, try and see him, this video doesn't do him justice. He is a pretty strong strummer but with a light touch too. He'll do some fingerstyle tunes too and he is a nice singer. He does a great show with Paddy.
John also plays with Jameson's Revenge. I really feel he deserves way more recognition as a true master of the instrument. I know it doesn't come across here on the video one bit, but check his site for better clips: http://web.mac.com/texwalsh/iWeb/johnwalshguitar.com/welcome.html
It takes a while for the tunes to load, just be patient as he says there! Your computer has not frozen!
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Iris, I used to play guitar for song accompaniment, but when I got into tunes I just hit the stone wall and switched to melody instruments. Guitar is NOT easy, but your contributions make me want to try again! http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/448/index.php
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Guitar is a complex form of mini harp, I am totally convinced, since taking up the harp. If you like that sound, try harp. Not that it is easy from a technique standpoint, but you can find the tunes way easier than on a guitar. If you have the music in your head and play something already, it's a matter of training your hands to make it come out of something else.
Harp looks more complex, because of the number of strings, but guitar has just six, and you are making different string lengths by fretting to get notes. On harp you get an extra hand because you don't have to fret. I didn't know what to do with it at first, the left is so busy on guitar and I tried to do too much, but then a harper said to essentially let the left hand do the job the thumb on the right hand does when playing guitar tunes. It made sense then. But if you are a string person, harp is a great joy for tune playing. Backing too! It took way longer to understand the harp backing than the tunes, which further leads me to believe backup playing on any good level is harder to learn than melody. The same rules go for backing on the harp though, and nope... don't strum it!!
So now I am a beast of burden, lugging a guitar and harp. Whistle would have been saner, but who is sane in this music! I am almost done building a little 00 14 fret guitar, easier to carry with harp, and built a 26 string harp too. Often now I leave the guitar home, because you can always borrow a guitar for a few sets, but not a harp!
There are some great harpers who came from guitar playing...I am getting too late a start to ever be one of the great ones, but someone like Laurie Riley or the late Tony Cuffe took to it easily after playing fingerstyle guitar tunes.
Anyway, give guitar a shot again. Go slow, a little piece at a time, don't rush it, it's not all or nothing, it's a process. Baby steps always get you on the way. A really nice and relatively easy tune in DADGAD is O'Carolan's Welcome. I know people play it in Am mostly, but it works real well in the DADGAD configuration, and you can capo up if playing with others.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I have a friend who is working on harp, and we have a deal that when we are both ready, we'll turn up at a session with harp and hammered dulcimer. Jaws will drop, and feet point to the door.
But the guitar is waiting patiently in the corner, and her time will come again.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I haven’t checked out the link, but apparently “the Cajun woman” is Ann Savoy(?) FWIW, she’s Cajun by marriage, not by birth, and is well respected in that tradition.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Here we go again. Another failed guitar player or maybe even someone who never even owned one complaining about guitars. Aesop's fox and the grapes never had a better
spokesmodel.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Spot on assesment, Iris! I would just like to point out a GREAT guitar backer (as well as piano, and flute- yes, no coincidence that he plays melody), John Blake. He has very quietly become THE first-call backer of choice for some of the "young lions" of the tradition. If anyone has not heard this man play, DROP WHAT YOU'RE DOING & get ANY recording that this man's playing graces. He is THAT GOOD! Some of his best work can be heard on The Tap Room Trio (Jesse Smith/Harry Bradley), Angelina Carberry & Martin Quinn, as well as his work with Lamond Gillespie & Mick Leahy's "Traditional Music from London" CDs.(although, on the last mentioned, he is playing mostly flute & piano. But get it anyway, it's AMAZING!) His playing has taste, grace and most importantly NEVER GETS IN THE WAY (of the melody). This music already has a strong rhythm, so it's very unneccessary to "Chugga-Chugga". As a backer, I can safely say that this is the most important thing I've
learned, outside of a melody instrument (Tenor Banjo- best choice if you've always played string instruments, although whistle's a very good starting point, too.) I think you're setting out on a VERY difficult road if you are unwilling or unable to learn a melody instrument, in order to learn this music. But what do I know, I'm just a GEE-TAHR player!
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Jay...I think guitar is one of the hardest things to play Irish tunes on. It's just difficult to find them, especially fingerstyle, where you play the tune and accompany yourself at the same time. It's not laid out for ITM, though it gets a little better in DADGAD. It's not sensible like a fiddle, mandolin, flute, whistle etc.
And backup playing, there really is no getting it right unless you devote yourself to learning lots of tunes the way a melody player does. You don't have to literally play them, but you have to hear them in your head as you play and know what's coming next in the melody, or develop the ability to hear it all quickly enough to be right there, or to hear a tune once through and then retain it for the next few times, usually three, that it is played. One trick for when people throw a tune at you, that you've never heard before...which happens all the time... you do need to be able to hear the key... and either drone or play very bare bones the first time through, while listening HARD. Then on the second and third times it's played, you should have the drift of it and be able to stay with the tune a lot better.
Backers have lots of little tricks like this. The funny thing is it sometimes will actually scare a melody player. They may have even written a tune and be bringing out for the first time, and somehow you seem to know it. It's all about listening, period. Paying hyper attention to the melody player. You have to listen 1000% with three zeroes!
It's tricky stuff, this accompaniment. And people pick up a guitar thinking they can't be a melody player and this will be the easy route! many would be safer playing melody and sticking to a more sanely laid out instrument for ITM.
Jaychoons... I can't stand Chugga chugga. I have heard of John Blake, and will look him up. I like a more flowing and melodic backing style, so that's what I do, and there is a fair bit of melody mixed in when the mood strikes here and there in a tune. It has to have some guts too though, not plinky folk music type song accompaniment. Strong attack, good phrasing that matches the melody player's phrasing and it will change with each new melody player and you have to adapt. it's all about them really. Martin Carthy is the best example of fingerstyle backing with strong gutsy attack... he is a total genius at backing Dave Swarbrick...and a brilliant melody player as well. No coincidence there.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Thanks Ionannas... I could write all day on this, LOL, but trying to control the urge. It's not of much interest to most melody players, and unfortunately not that many guitar players either. Not that I am the ultimate authority on this by a long shot, but rather just trying to convey my observations and thoughts that have helped over 46 years of fingerstyle playing, about 38 of those in ITM, playing both professionally and session playing. I was just a young kid when I started, but shudder to think it's been that long...and why I am not BETTER for all that time is the annoying thing!
John Walsh, I consider one of the best backers and tune players on guitar in ITM. He is under-recognized as such except for by a few. And he's a really nice singer too, I envy him!Could be that he is not out there and high profile as Doyle etc. He tours often with Paddy Keenan and Paddy is very particular about who backs him. That video clip was not representative of John at all, seemed as I said, it was clipping out certain frequencies and thus parts of his playing momentarily, giving hte impression he was off. John, he is rarely if ever off in the music. People ought to consider the camera and how it picks up certain sounds before trashing such an amazing player as John Walsh. Maybe look him up further and see what he does first. He's in a league with McManus, Renbourn in my opinion. It's like there is practically nothing he can't do on guitar, and does it well.
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I disagree - with everything - but then I guess I am lucky to play with the best guitarist in folk music - and strangely enough she is a woman - perhaps that's why....
Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Here is a great piping from Paddy Keenan. But the guitar significantly spoiled the music and rhythm. Most Irish guitar accompaniment is simply unmusical and terrible, and spoils everything. Where the hell guitars became introduced from into Irish traditional music? IMHO, the way 99% of guitar players accompany reels and jigs are totally wrong. They have not the slightest clue how to accompany real dance music. In most other folk music, the guitarists play a great chugging rhytm perfect for the dance tunes. Why guitarist for Irish traditional music have no clue how to accompany dance music?
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by nemethmik
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Bit of a sweeping generalization there nemethmik but lots of trad guitarists are rubbish, mainly because they don't listen to enough trad. Very like many melody players really.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I think it's a byproduct of the versatility of the guitar itself - guitarists are pulled in many directions by many different styles, and unfortunately, the art of playing trad or flamenco or tango or gypsy jazz or what have you well takes a good deal of specialization that many of them aren't willing to attempt. So they just flail along instead. Bogman is absolutely 100% correct about melody players not listening to enough traditional music.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Which is why a well-played bouzouki knocks a guitar into a cocked hat every time. If you don't believe me, listen to Alec Finn.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
speaking as a guitar player, all I can really tell you is that we are generally too busy giving our phone numbers out to the pretty girls that hang all over us to be able to devote enough time to learning the proper rhythms for the jigs and reels
a man must have his priorities in this day and age
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I would be interested in knowing what tracks or clips you are talking about? .
Also why you think that a 'great chugging rhythm ' is what is required all the time?It certainly isn't in my opinion.It all depends on where you are playing and with whom, what for and what tunes ,
As an experienced Irish Set dancer I find a great chugging rhythm can spoil the dance.
Although I remember going to see the piper you mentioned many years ago and being under whelmed by whom he chose to accompany him .
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I am shocked to learn that some ITM guitar accompanists are poor players, that strum and fret their hour upon the stage, and then are heard no more.
This is no less than a crisis, and it's reasonable to insist that melody players begin paying a tax to fund lessons for the poor accompanists. Some of these sausage-fingered klutzes were additionally burdened by being born into tin-eared families of non-Irish descent. Others cannot think quickly enough to handle the wild, blood-stirring "reel." These poor players need your help and they need it now.
My Good Player Revenue Enhancement proposal ensures that the Session of Tomorrow will be brighter and smarter and greener and this vision—which will benefit pubs all around our CO2, flu, and Martian-threatened planet—is only the beginning. I urge you to devote more time toward practicing (or, even practising), and not wasting your time reading deeply and critically. Thank you for those pleasant genuflections, and I bless you all.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
The role of the rhythm player in ITM is not like that of the rhythm player in any other traditional music, precisely because ITM evolved in the absence of chordal, counterpoint, or percussive accompaniment, and therefore the melodic tradition evolved technique for spelling out the rhythm explicitly and continuously in the tune. The tune is the rhythm; it tells you where the beat is and where the harmony is. Although the creation of ambiguities in both is part of the art of the playing, the ways in which a fiddler or other melody player creates those ambiguities depend precisely on the expectation that they will spell out the beat.
This means, of course, that the accompanist cannot rely on the techniques that work in other traditional music. Since there is no real tradition to rely on, only a fairly recent set of habits, and there are so many styles of melody playing, with distinctive rhythmic habits, there is no clear "right" approach to accompaniment in this music. So, the poor accompanist is in a difficult position, with no default position to rely on they must resort to, as Bogman is the latest to point out, listening. Not just listening to a lot of trad music, although that is indispensible, but also listening to the person they're playing with and finding the place where the right chord should be played correctly.
All of this is why I don't play a lot of accompaniment any more. It's a lot more fun to play the tunes!
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I think a new tax to publically fund lessons for backers is too socialist for me. We conservatives believe the guitar players should be simply held accountable. A bit of personal responsibility will go a long way here.
It is my firm belief that it is the height of the Nanny State to subsidize lessons. Here in America, these people may very well be of German decent and thus completely hopeless. We must let the free market sort this out on its own.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Nate—
I agree with your assessment, but I disagree with your use of the word "pretty."
"Beautiful" is more like it.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Nate—Your earlier assessment, of course...
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
good point, Pure Drops. All these slags against the guitar players are really just made up by fiddle players with nothing better to do on a Saturday night
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I figured so. And you know it's not that I don't appreciate your idea for a solution to this problem, but I'm just too much of a "free market" man to go for any new taxes
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I think there are many guitar players who do not realise that is often best not to play on certain rhythms. Just 'cos you have one does not mean you have to use it all the time.
I generally prefer bodhran rhythms to be played on a bodhran.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by NKForster
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Nate, I concur with your libertarian analysis of the issue. However, we both know full well that the 'powers that be' will never allow the free market to truly operate without their interference behind the scenes. They speak of allowing the natural removal of ham-fisted strummers to occur, then they ruthlessly prop up failed strummers behind the scenes, with public funds no less!
Wait…what?
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Just for my tuppence worth. I don't and have never played guitar (or other accompaniment instrument) but I think that the chugging is definitely a "no no". This is the type of accompaniment that would have been heard in the era before the Bothy Band and I don't know whether it came from big bands, jazz or country & western. To my mind it ruins Irish traditional music by putting it into a straight jacket so that it sounds sort of blue grassey or jazzy. However, from around the time of the Bothy band, more backers seemed to have developed an empathy for traditional music where the chords and rhythm seemed to follow the melody. I may not be expressing this in a scientific or musical way but for trad the melody is "king" and everything else must be subordinate to it.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
???????
Your question makes a statement. Very unfair to many very very good ITM guitarists out there
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
SWFL, I do recognize that in practice we will never be able to rely on the free market to solve this. I realize all too well that the "free market" is a thing of the past and we'll no more get it back than we'll get back our dead ancestors, but we can still apply the basic priciples of personal responsibility and limited government to reach a solution.
I for one do not want to live in a world where banjo players are sitting around, backing tunes, and strapping themselves with my tax money!
...and if we don't nip this in the bud, I'm afraid we will be saddled with government sponsored spoons players, so let's just not be so quick to change the current policy without a period of public debate
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Oh my, I forgot to include the link to the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R8zMsgIPA8
Anyhow, do not take my comments too seriously
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by nemethmik
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
dont you be worrying about that, nemethmik
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Nate / SWFL—
Yes, Milton O'Friedman, in his "Free to Strum," and Friedrich McHayek in his "Road to Serfdomvarna" both argued stringently against melody player taxes. But their antiquated notions of individual freedom and personal responsibility have no place in the Brave New Session.
Poor players deserve more than your barely suppressed guffaws, your sneers, and your pity. They deserve 50% of YOUR pint money, 50% of YOUR chair time, and yes, 50% of YOUR well-honed chops. Sessions are not meritocracies—crap players should receive your rapt attention then your tearful applause, even as they butcher The Kesh (which they slaved to learn over decades of half-hearted sludging while watching their NetFlix-rented copy of "My Left Foot").
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I'd prefer something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlv8PUyc1HQ
Why most Irish accompanyment guitarists want to do (much)more than this Cajun woman? "Less is more", does it make sense in Irish traditional music accompanyment?
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by nemethmik
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
nemethmik—
Nice video, but my ambition is to do more than that Cajun woman.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Wow, is it possible to suggest anything less suitable than the playing of the cajun woman?
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"this Cajun woman"..."that Cajun woman"..."the cajun woman"...
Why, the pesky strumming minx has hijacked this thread!
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Well nemethmik,
it may have to do with the fact that Cajun music is entirely a different genre. Less is often more, yes, but that sort of backing - which I think it lovely for its context - would actually annoy the crap out of a lot of the session folk I play with. For Irish music, in my opinion, it's a bit heavy-handed. And my ear tells me she misses some of the changes, but maybe it's just right for Cajun music, which I know next to nothing about.
Can you perhaps be more specific as to what you're looking for? I mean, Irish guitar backing is super diverse. Maybe you simply haven't heard the right players for you. Who have you listened to and what would you rather they be doing?
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
nemethmik - thanks for putting up the link you were talking about. Gee, I don't know the guitarist, but he did all the right sorts of things - he supported the melody without overwhelming it in the areas of interest, rhythm, and volume, he got the changes right, and he obviously knew the tunes well enough and was listening.
Perhaps you'd like a different genre of music, or perhaps some dancing lessons? Myself I don't dance well- that's why I play the instrument...
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
nemethmik,
I agree with you about this particular piece. Sounds to me like the guitarist is slightly behind the tempo, at least for the first half -- I didn't listen to the rest of it because I was kind of put off by the guitar. Felt like Keenan had a nice kind of pop going on that the guitar missed altogether.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Jmbu
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Great music, indeed, Nemethmik. But a lot of Irish tunes have a complexity that would not be well-served by that sort of accompaniment. As has been said already, Irish traditional music is a complete food in itself - in addition to melody, it has all the rhythm and implied harmony it needs without a 'chugging' guitar or piano to help it along.
'Less is more' can certainly apply in Irish music. There is often a tendency to overcomplicate accompaniment with a barrage of jazzy chords, substitutions, cross rhythms, you name it - there are a lot of very accomplished guitarists (and bouzouki and keyboard players) around the trad scene, with a very wide palette, but not necessarily having the discrimination to know when and how to use what. On the other hand, there are many who, to my ears, oversimplify accompaniment, glossing over some of the beautiful shades to be found in traditional tunes.
Since the guitar is a relative newcomer to traditional music, it is inevitable that guitarists will bring in influences from other genres - and there is nothing wrong with that, so long as they are familiar enough with the tunes to know what is appropriate.
Like Bogman and Jon K say, it's all about listening - listening to the genre and listening to the individuals you play with.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
> by reenactor
> Perhaps you'd like a different genre of music
Yeah, Irish (pipe) music with no guitars
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by nemethmik
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Fair point, Nem. I agree that Mr. Keenan could have managed perfectly well without an accompanist (That's what the regulators are for, no?). I've seen Paddy Keenan three times, two of them with a below-par guitar accompanist (far below the standard of the one in this video), turned up too loud. I get the impression Paddy Keenan is not the sort to hog centre-stage.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Well nemethmik there is a place for that .
I think it may be the new NPU headquarters in Dublin
I would suggest loooking at the many you tube clips for Liz Carrol or Martin Hayes for a better view and sound .
Without much umpa umpa as in the cajun lady.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Jmbu
> the guitarist is slightly behind the tempo
Oops, I have no problem with this guitarist's capabilities and tempo. I do not like what he does, too agressively banging his strings that comes into an "unstructured" stream of sounds, overwhelming the performance. For example, I can hardly hear the regulators when the piper plays them.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by nemethmik
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
...BTW, the other time I saw him play was in the piping recital at Willie Clancy week. He had literally just arrived from The States, straight out of the taxi from the airport onto the stage, without even chance to tune his pipes. But he was persuaded to play anyway. He made his apologies and started to play. There's a famous song that describes the sound that came out.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Spot on Jon. bannerman, ' long live the king!'
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"the guitarist is slightly behind the tempo"
I noticed that, but I put it down to poor acoustics and mike positioning.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Rather than wait for Iris Nevins to have to repeat herself, you could look up some of her past contributions on the subject.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
" an "unstructured" stream of sounds, overwhelming the performance. For example, I can hardly hear the regulators when the piper plays them. "
How can you judge from that clip? It's a compressed youtube clip recorded on an amateur mic in a very echoey room. Of course it's going to sound sh!te.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
nemethmik
I did wonder I admit about the whole amplification set up they were using and also if the guitarist and Paddy had any fallback speakers . How well could the guitarist hear himself? Would explain a lot I think.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Exactly Dave, and that's why it's always unfair to judge on youtubes.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Must be a slow news day
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I'm wrecking my brains here to try and remember when I first came across a guitar player backing Irish trad. Back in the fifties some ceili bands had a double bass which in turn became an electric bass. I think the first time I came across a rhythm guitar player backing Irish Trad was Tommy Power who use to back his father, fiddle player Jimmy Power in the Favourite around 1967. However I'm sure somebody will come up with an earlier example.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I'm pretty sure Neilidh Boyle used a guitarist but I could be wrong.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I saw a John Carty concert a few years back and he brought along a guitar player who was slightly less than adequate. I would’ve enjoyed it more without the guitar. Maybe the really good guitarists expect too much pay to make it worthwhile on a small-time tour.
I also wondered at the time if maybe John was being a bit reactionary against Modern ITM Performance Standards. He made no effort at all toward any kind of stage presence or engagement with the audience and he often threw away the ending of a tune, as if to say he wasn’t taking any of this seriously.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
If you could stuff a piano in a case and carry it into a pub, wouldn't then the complaints be about piano players?
There are plenty of bad back up players. Primarily it is because all of us think we are better players than we are - and we're not afraid to share that with the group.
For bad back up examples - listen to Michael Coleman recordings. Or how about the bouzouki player on Karen Tweed's tune recordings. Basically, not knowing the changes comes from not knowing/understanding the tunes - and not having a plan about where they should go.
I'm not in favor of the type of playing offered by Ms Savoy, although, I'm sure, she's very capable as a cajun guitarist, but not on the level of David Doucet (Beausoleil) - who'd brilliant.
Better yet, for irish playing, I would suggest this style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UWHg6BbfLU
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I have a recording of Whitey Andrews accompanying Paddy Killoran in the early 1930's....
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Or, maybe, this from Daithe Sproule:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPQrUhWxo_s
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Bob, I'd say he was p*ssed...
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Or, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2H8HHM8HE&feature=PlayList&p=8C59D50CB9355868&index=1
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
John Doyle is a perfect example of a really killer ITM guitarist - he plays with Liz Carroll a lot, and is really worth checking out.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Alex Grene
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Or, how about this from John Doyle, Sylvian Barou & Liz Carroll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTlspRuF1dw
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
It should be noted, however, that in these clips (Dunlea, Sproule, Doyle) the guitarists are playing in DADGAD - but they don't always play in DADGAD, sometimes they're in Drop D and sometimes in Spanish Tuning (EADGBE) depending on the set and the changes. Sometimes in other tunings of their choosing.
This is why it's important for back up players to know their material - and believe me, it makes it more fun and more interesting for everyone involved.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Guitar players who don't listen.... Porn is where you belong, not my session, no way.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Mr Bannerman, your spot on IMO sir.
Trad accompaniment is esoteric at best, perception, or rather ones preconceived perception/idea being the random element. IE what the melody player and the listener want to hear from accompaniment is the radical in the equation and as it’s often different. Me, I have my style of approach that I bring to a tune when playing guitar or melody or melody on the guitar even. I’ve had my detractors in my time and when I sit in with those I give them more of what I think they want and less of what I want. By and large I just do my own thing, I just make it up as I go along (and that’s no kidding) and play to what I hear.
In ITM the tune, is the rhythm King? No, it’s the pulse of the tune that determines the rhythm and whilst to the uninitiated the rhythm may seem the same for any given tune each time played, the experienced player knows/hears the different emphasis that different players brings to that tune. So the pulse is King IMNSVHO, (just saying like). Many players can’t/will not/can’t hear/not even aware that it’s what drives the music/ get the pulse into their music and if not, how would they think an accompanist can provide meaningful accompaniment? If there is no point of reference we’re all adrift. Listening is the key for everybody but it’s not everybody that knows what to listen out for. I’ve suffered my fair share of crap accompanists in my time. I’m more chilled on this than most it seems but then again I don’t expect every tune to be a cracker.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Spanish tuning is often referred to as Open G.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Would it be sacrilege to admit that I find John Doyle's accompaniment about as pleasant as a jackhammer outside my bedroom window on a lovely summer morning when i have no reason not to stay in bed for a little while longer? Hearing him with Liz Carroll is like that - everything's perfect, except for this loud, insistent hammering sound that just won't stop.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
It's up to you ~
Liz is great. I don't think she'll be giving him the boot any time soon.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Mr Jon, thats the point I'm trying to make above, different strokes for different folks, so no, not sacrilege just your opinion.
I'll be sure to let "Basher Boyle" know where you live Lol........
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I spend a lot of time accompanying tune players (on guitar) - both in sessions and as part of a ceilidh band. The key to it all, as far as I'm concerned, is: (a) to hold back at particular times and then let go a little (b) to try to create a judicious mix of emphasis and counterpoint (on the beat, off the beat, between the beat) so that the melody can sing.
Every tune is different and every player is different - so there's a huge amount of anticipation involved. "Chug-chug" as I think someone mentioned - is definitely NOT on for me! There are times when you can and should go hell for leather with the feel of the piece. An example is the "Dennis Murphy's/John Ryan's/Late Night Band" polka set. It's important to get the stops in the A part of John Ryan.s There's a lovely implied D to C chord change in the A part of the LNB Polka - and then you can come in with all flags flying on the Em chords in the B part.
But it's all down to the ears, in the end...
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Will Fly
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Re the three videos; the guy on the first DOES seem to be trying to listen, but yet he's just "stirring the pudding" in his style. PLUS - he's too loud ? Not on my youtube.
The cajun woman - hey, there's a song about her - is doing just what Dance Music needs - have we forgotten that this is The Dance Music of Ireland as O'Neill labelled it ? Cajun music always has this strong rhythmic element.
John Doyle seems to be to have put most of what is needed insofar as we compare the three examples given. A little less strum, even though it IS nicely phrased and percussively damped, and a bit more bass-line and single-string work would be my preference, but hey, he's working with the best, if they like him I'm not the one who can complain.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Number one priority for accompanying tunes is to learn and know they tunes in the first place IMO. Many busk the tunes using the misconception that being knowledgeable in the genre in enough. Every tune requires an independent approach.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Oh, and loved that little guitar the cajun woman was playing, looks like an old Martin OM. The best. That's what you need for ITM accompaniment.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"Many busk the tunes using the misconception that being knowledgeable in the genre in enough."
In fact, IMHO, this is in fact more often than not sufficient. When accompanying tunes, I won't necessarily know every tune - but if there's anything unexpected, for the most part, that can be nailed 2nd time through - though truth to tell, that might not be guaranteed.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"Spanish tuning is often referred to as Open G."
??
"Would it be sacrilege to admit that I find John Doyle's accompaniment about as pleasant as a jackhammer outside my bedroom window on a lovely summer morning when i have no reason not to stay in bed for a little while longer?"
Not if that's what it sounds like to you. I happen to think he's a wizard on the guitar. But would I want him backing a session? Probably not, if he plays in the style that we hear in this video clip - but I've not heard him playing in a session, so I don't know to what extent he is able to adjust his style to suit the situation.
He has ideas coming out of his ears, so to speak, and imparts a very strong personal touch on the music, which, in my opinion, is welcome in a performance situation, but not necessarily in a session. I don't think it can be disputed that he is familiar with the tunes and listens intently to whomever he is accompanying, but his creative drive is so strong that his individuality is still very prominent.
The clip with Arty McGlynn, for me, represents everything that good guitar backing (and melody playing) should be. But I have heard studio recordings in which he does things that are not to my taste - that's just me.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
"Would it be sacrilege to admit that I find John Doyle's accompaniment about as pleasant as a jackhammer outside my bedroom window on a lovely summer morning when i have no reason not to stay in bed for a little while longer?"
That's exactly what I thought when I heard John Doyle's playing on Tommy Peoples' "Wainting for a Call" CD. Luckily, Alec Finn provides accompaniments on more tracks than JD.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by DaveL35
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Sorry, not 'Spanish Tuning', but 'Standard Tuning'.
for Spanish see:
http://www.torvund.net/guitar/index.php?page=tuning&tid=3
for Standard see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_guitar#Tuning
but, there are a few more options:
Standard: E A D G B E
Drop D: D A D G B E
Drop D: D A D G B D
DADGAD: D A D G A D
Fourths: E A D G C F
Lute: E A D F# B E
1/2-Step Down: Eb Ab Db Gb Bb Eb
Full-Step Down: D G C F A D
Open: D D A D F# A D
Big City: D A D F# A A
D Wahine: D A D F# B D
D Minor: D A D F A D
D Modal: D A D D A D
G 6: D G D G B E
Open: G D G D G B D
G Minor: D G D G Bb D
Open C: C G C G C E
C 6: C G C G A E
Baritone: B E A D F# B
Baritone: A D G C E A
Old Spanish: D G D G A E
Lute: E A D F# A E
D Modal: D A D G A D
Open: E E B E A B E
Bron Y Aur: C A C G C E
Parvardigar: C G C G C D
BP Modal: E B E E B E
New Standard: C G D A E G
Low C: C G D G A D
Shifted: E G# C# F# B E
Dropped: C C G C F A D
Slipknot: B F# B E G# C#
from:
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/the_basics/guitar_tunings.html
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Funny...Oldstrings..."Iris Nevins" is trying HARD to not write and repeat! I'll try not to repeat my probabaly altogether too weird for anyone theories on backing/accompanying. Like listening to good piano players etc. Things like you need to know the tunes or at least the structures and memorize the repeating patterns in the music, which will make it easier to play on the fly with anyone.
I started on guitar because that was what was in my house, period. I was a tune player before I knew what a chord was. There was no money to give me lessons, so I listened to fingerstyle players and copied them note by note. I actually have been able to teach guitar tunes to peopl who have never played a chord or touched a guitar, in the same way I taught myself. I don't do music theory speeches, I just teach them to listen and find things, and to learn the hand mechanics and a few little exercises, and they can do it the same way. it's all in listening and practice. It is hard work though and love of the music is what has to drive you. If you don't have that, forget it, it will never click.
Teaching backing is actually much harder than tunes, especially to someone who hasn't really digested the music and swallowed it whole. Too many guitar players pick it up figuring they can't cut it as a melody player, so they'll take up guitar. It is an incredibly difficult instrument for anyone who really explores it in depth, and never mind trying to accompany, that is at least as hard as playing melody to do it right. I think all the bad examples of playing out there prove this. Many guitar "bashers" who alternate two or three chords and hope for the best might be better as whistle players or mandolin or something where it's one note at a time and you know where you are going next.
Backing is so instinctual and the more I play, the more I truly believe that the hardest part of it is understanding each new melody player's phrasing and being able to adapt to it. That's a very vague thing to teach, maybe you can't teach it at all. You can teach chords and keys and timing, but how do you teach someone how to get into the melody player's mind and truly understand them on a very subtle level. A great backer like an Alec Finn can do this. Daithi Sproule, Donal Clancy, they are right there, as though they share a mind with whomever they are backing, as though they set aside their whole ego and selves and seem to focus entirely on the other player. That is a tough call that few backers can achieve. You don't even have to like their style, but when you see that connection, it is amazing if you think about it. How can you teach that in a workshop or on a DVD? John Doyle...not crazy about the style, but he sure knows exactly what he is doing, and has that connection thing going with the melody players and should be highly respected for that even if you are not fond of the style. Interesting thing too...the best backers can also play tunes pretty darned well... Clancy, Sproule, McManus, Bays, Doyle, Cahill.... every one of them can be a tune player when they feel like it. I don't think that's a coincidence. So maybe backers should learn tunes on something, anything, to truly understand the music.
OK enough...getting carried away.
By the way, that guitar player is John Walsh, and I am writing to defend the guy. I truly believe there is something off with the video camera where it's picking up parts of beats or something "clippy" is happening. Maybe just to the guitar, I don't know. The pipes come through OK. I have had this same thing happen when I have videoed music. Something about the range the guitar is sounding in, I think it is somehow not all being picked up and it's choppy.
I know John and we have had him at IAANJ with Paddy numerous times. He is never off. The guy is also, and few know, one of the true geniuses on fingerstyle guitar in the world. I am truly embarassed to play in front of him! Not really, because he is so incredibly nice, but he can play that guitar inside out and upside down. He doesn't get the exposure for his true genius on the instrument. His sound live is different, try and see him, this video doesn't do him justice. He is a pretty strong strummer but with a light touch too. He'll do some fingerstyle tunes too and he is a nice singer. He does a great show with Paddy.
John also plays with Jameson's Revenge. I really feel he deserves way more recognition as a true master of the instrument. I know it doesn't come across here on the video one bit, but check his site for better clips:
http://web.mac.com/texwalsh/iWeb/johnwalshguitar.com/welcome.html
It takes a while for the tunes to load, just be patient as he says there! Your computer has not frozen!
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by irisnevins
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Iris, I used to play guitar for song accompaniment, but when I got into tunes I just hit the stone wall and switched to melody instruments. Guitar is NOT easy, but your contributions make me want to try again!
http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/448/index.php
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Guitar is a complex form of mini harp, I am totally convinced, since taking up the harp. If you like that sound, try harp. Not that it is easy from a technique standpoint, but you can find the tunes way easier than on a guitar. If you have the music in your head and play something already, it's a matter of training your hands to make it come out of something else.
Harp looks more complex, because of the number of strings, but guitar has just six, and you are making different string lengths by fretting to get notes. On harp you get an extra hand because you don't have to fret. I didn't know what to do with it at first, the left is so busy on guitar and I tried to do too much, but then a harper said to essentially let the left hand do the job the thumb on the right hand does when playing guitar tunes. It made sense then. But if you are a string person, harp is a great joy for tune playing. Backing too! It took way longer to understand the harp backing than the tunes, which further leads me to believe backup playing on any good level is harder to learn than melody. The same rules go for backing on the harp though, and nope... don't strum it!!
So now I am a beast of burden, lugging a guitar and harp. Whistle would have been saner, but who is sane in this music! I am almost done building a little 00 14 fret guitar, easier to carry with harp, and built a 26 string harp too. Often now I leave the guitar home, because you can always borrow a guitar for a few sets, but not a harp!
There are some great harpers who came from guitar playing...I am getting too late a start to ever be one of the great ones, but someone like Laurie Riley or the late Tony Cuffe took to it easily after playing fingerstyle guitar tunes.
Anyway, give guitar a shot again. Go slow, a little piece at a time, don't rush it, it's not all or nothing, it's a process. Baby steps always get you on the way. A really nice and relatively easy tune in DADGAD is O'Carolan's Welcome. I know people play it in Am mostly, but it works real well in the DADGAD configuration, and you can capo up if playing with others.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by irisnevins
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I have a friend who is working on harp, and we have a deal that when we are both ready, we'll turn up at a session with harp and hammered dulcimer. Jaws will drop, and feet point to the door.
But the guitar is waiting patiently in the corner, and her time will come again.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I haven’t checked out the link, but apparently “the Cajun woman” is Ann Savoy(?) FWIW, she’s Cajun by marriage, not by birth, and is well respected in that tradition.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Here we go again. Another failed guitar player or maybe even someone who never even owned one complaining about guitars. Aesop's fox and the grapes never had a better
spokesmodel.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by halfwaythere
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
thanks for that Toppish _ the rest makes for an interesting diversion that's all
# Posted on June 3rd 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Banging guitars and bodhrans is so much fun!
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by nemethmik
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
that's right...and you can always get a fiddle player, they're a dime a dozen.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
'Banging guitars and bodhrans is so much fun!'
I think you should keep your sex life to yourself, nemethmik.
# Posted on June 4th 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Spot on assesment, Iris! I would just like to point out a GREAT guitar backer (as well as piano, and flute- yes, no coincidence that he plays melody), John Blake. He has very quietly become THE first-call backer of choice for some of the "young lions" of the tradition. If anyone has not heard this man play, DROP WHAT YOU'RE DOING & get ANY recording that this man's playing graces. He is THAT GOOD! Some of his best work can be heard on The Tap Room Trio (Jesse Smith/Harry Bradley), Angelina Carberry & Martin Quinn, as well as his work with Lamond Gillespie & Mick Leahy's "Traditional Music from London" CDs.(although, on the last mentioned, he is playing mostly flute & piano. But get it anyway, it's AMAZING!) His playing has taste, grace and most importantly NEVER GETS IN THE WAY (of the melody). This music already has a strong rhythm, so it's very unneccessary to "Chugga-Chugga". As a backer, I can safely say that this is the most important thing I've
learned, outside of a melody instrument (Tenor Banjo- best choice if you've always played string instruments, although whistle's a very good starting point, too.) I think you're setting out on a VERY difficult road if you are unwilling or unable to learn a melody instrument, in order to learn this music. But what do I know, I'm just a GEE-TAHR player!
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by jaychoons
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Jay...I think guitar is one of the hardest things to play Irish tunes on. It's just difficult to find them, especially fingerstyle, where you play the tune and accompany yourself at the same time. It's not laid out for ITM, though it gets a little better in DADGAD. It's not sensible like a fiddle, mandolin, flute, whistle etc.
And backup playing, there really is no getting it right unless you devote yourself to learning lots of tunes the way a melody player does. You don't have to literally play them, but you have to hear them in your head as you play and know what's coming next in the melody, or develop the ability to hear it all quickly enough to be right there, or to hear a tune once through and then retain it for the next few times, usually three, that it is played. One trick for when people throw a tune at you, that you've never heard before...which happens all the time... you do need to be able to hear the key... and either drone or play very bare bones the first time through, while listening HARD. Then on the second and third times it's played, you should have the drift of it and be able to stay with the tune a lot better.
Backers have lots of little tricks like this. The funny thing is it sometimes will actually scare a melody player. They may have even written a tune and be bringing out for the first time, and somehow you seem to know it. It's all about listening, period. Paying hyper attention to the melody player. You have to listen 1000% with three zeroes!
It's tricky stuff, this accompaniment. And people pick up a guitar thinking they can't be a melody player and this will be the easy route! many would be safer playing melody and sticking to a more sanely laid out instrument for ITM.
Jaychoons... I can't stand Chugga chugga. I have heard of John Blake, and will look him up. I like a more flowing and melodic backing style, so that's what I do, and there is a fair bit of melody mixed in when the mood strikes here and there in a tune. It has to have some guts too though, not plinky folk music type song accompaniment. Strong attack, good phrasing that matches the melody player's phrasing and it will change with each new melody player and you have to adapt. it's all about them really. Martin Carthy is the best example of fingerstyle backing with strong gutsy attack... he is a total genius at backing Dave Swarbrick...and a brilliant melody player as well. No coincidence there.
# Posted on June 6th 2009 by irisnevins
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I agree with Iris.
# Posted on June 6th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
Thanks Ionannas... I could write all day on this, LOL, but trying to control the urge. It's not of much interest to most melody players, and unfortunately not that many guitar players either. Not that I am the ultimate authority on this by a long shot, but rather just trying to convey my observations and thoughts that have helped over 46 years of fingerstyle playing, about 38 of those in ITM, playing both professionally and session playing. I was just a young kid when I started, but shudder to think it's been that long...and why I am not BETTER for all that time is the annoying thing!
John Walsh, I consider one of the best backers and tune players on guitar in ITM. He is under-recognized as such except for by a few. And he's a really nice singer too, I envy him!Could be that he is not out there and high profile as Doyle etc. He tours often with Paddy Keenan and Paddy is very particular about who backs him. That video clip was not representative of John at all, seemed as I said, it was clipping out certain frequencies and thus parts of his playing momentarily, giving hte impression he was off. John, he is rarely if ever off in the music. People ought to consider the camera and how it picks up certain sounds before trashing such an amazing player as John Walsh. Maybe look him up further and see what he does first. He's in a league with McManus, Renbourn in my opinion. It's like there is practically nothing he can't do on guitar, and does it well.
# Posted on June 6th 2009 by irisnevins
Re: Why guitar accompanyment in Irish music is so poor?
I disagree - with everything - but then I guess I am lucky to play with the best guitarist in folk music - and strangely enough she is a woman - perhaps that's why....
# Posted on June 10th 2009 by Mando Deb