I got into a heated discussion with someone in a pub last night. Some background about him...he has been playing Irish music for 50 years or so, but his way of playing tunes is, well, unconventional. He might play a reel more like an air, at a slow and uneven tempo. It can sound nice, but it is not session friendly, at least per my thinking about sessions. And this is the crux of the discussion that ensued last night...
Seems that he does not approve of me passing judgment on things like whether or not a reel is played properly, or whether or not a particular musical outing in the music is "really" an Irish trad session or not. Now to be fair, I pointed out repeatedly that there are shades of gray in such matters, not rigid definitions, but even this qualified and moderated point of view was offensive to my mate.
His arguments, if I parse them correctly, were:
(1) I personally can't know much about how reels are properly played, or what a "real" ITM session is, or any number of other topics, because I am American and have only been playing ITM for around 5 years
(2) In fact, nobody has the right to pass judgment on what the proper way to play a tune is, what an ITM session is, etc. As long as somebody gets enjoyment out of playing or listening to music, then that is a session, end of story
Now like I said, I don't claim that there is a black and white definition of these concepts or others, or that I possess the definitions. But my claim to my mate was that, amongst the practitioners and aficionados of ITM, there is a range of opinions which are not evenly distributed but rather have a definite concentration around some common beliefs and views -- a sort of mainstream conventional wisdom of ITM. And thus I conclude that there are "truths" to be known about ITM, which form a factual basis against which opinions can be judged to be more or less correct. That is, it's not just a great big hairball of subjectivity.
This all seemed more grandiose with alcohol involved
I think you answered your own question 'concentration around some common beliefs and views -- a sort of mainstream conventional wisdom of ITM'--and then there's everything else that falls outside that conventional view yet is still within the tradition, so to speak. Thank God for that bit that falls outside the mainstream! Life would be a little dull wouldn't it?
You can play for 50 years and still play badly and know
nothing. That happens if you start out with the attitude that
you're a genius who knows everything.
A session to me means playing music together, not putting on
a show of your own mediocrity (or "genius" if you like).
I think it was the wise bard, Will CPT who once said something along the lines of, people behave in a session much like they do elsewhere in their lives. While I personally have no problem with the occasional "solo interpretation" of a few tunes, session music is communal - at least to me. If your man of 50 plus years wishes to play tunes in a manner that is random or unwelcoming to all those around him, I'm not sure why he bothers going. Sounds like a bit of an odd bird to me.
I don't know *any* airs that have an uneven rhythm - certainly not like a deliberately wonked-up reel. Playing even a slow air is like tickling a trout - the time it takes may vary, but you don't jolt the action or the whole thing goes skew-whiff.
Some people *do* seem to define "a session" as what fits into their own particular comfort zone, which can be very narrow. This can come with too much alcohol early in life, or ageing, or a combination of both factors.
I thought a session is where a bunch of people play Irish music together. If you can't play together, it's not a session. It's just some guy playing alone.
Everything depends on the traditions of the particular session. When a tambourine player appeared at my local session and argued that her "instrument" was indeed part of traditional Irish music, I explained that it was not part of "our tradition here" and this seemed to work. Of course, if the player in question has a long established "tradition" at the pub then you're out of luck!
Less talking more playing..brass neck it start tunes..look for consensus..majority rules..f uck it.. a session is a pretty simple formula..u go u play tunes in a similar way to other people..and learn new ones..why make it complicated..if some aul fella wants to play a few tunes his way let him..if he's excessive bordering on doolally, politely explain that its not a solo performance unless its his gig he has no comeback..why not even learn a couple of his tunes or show an interest to placate him..Otherwise just play sets over the top of him and dont give him a chance to start tunes..or go elsewhere..
"In fact, nobody has the right to pass judgment on what the proper way to play a tune is, what an ITM session is, etc. As long as somebody gets enjoyment out of playing or listening to music, then that is a session, end of story.."
...The traditional itself dictates and judges what way a tunes can be played..there are certain accepted boundaries..this is a stupid arguement..its not f ucking Jazz..
"As long as somebody gets enjoyment out of playing or listening to music, then that is a session, end of story.."
...a response possibly reflective of an inability to perform or progress in the confines of the tradition..Or indeed a "cop -out"..
I have sympathy in that you may have to tolerate this man, often in the states sessions are thin on the ground. You may not have choice elsewhere. If you want to go to extemes, approach the managment and make it a private gig with select musicians..this is a bit sly though and the aul fella is entitled to his choons as much as u, if not more.. Arguing is bad idea, especially with aul fellas, theyl just train ther dogs to bite ye and go out of there way to do the very thing you dont like. Win him round, dont insitgate what is in affect an anally rententive argument..make the aul f ucker laugh and buy hima drink, maybe even get him so drunk he cant play tunes.. As is an effective anti Bodhran strategy..
"make the aul f ucker laugh and buy him a drink" - good advice. I've gotten out of many tight spots employing this very strategy. When that fails, a swift head-butt to the bridge of the nose works well too.
God did not define the word "session". If you play together, it's a session. If you play in a style that descends from those before you, it's traditional. If you play in a way that others like, they will be happy that you play. Mainstream opinion is important, but that's all it is - no, mainstream opinion is not a "truth", and it's not binding on anybody. This thread is about nothing.
PS (why oh why can't we edit our posts?) your mate has a point in (1). As an American with 5 years in the tradition you are entitled to an opinion, but it is not one that can yet carry much weight, certainly not as compared with someone who grew up with the music and has played it for several decades. Though of course, that person is also not God.
Hes gota come again some time ..why not as a wee out man with Doolally choons and uncompromising opinions...I would listen to what this man is telling you
As it turns out, the fellow in question is a guy I've played with a fair bit, and what CF says is quite true, but perhaps not the whole story. He does in fact have an odd way of approaching some tunes, something that I've always thought of as a "cubist" approach. Totally impossible to play with, but he doesn't do it all the time, and it does give a new light on a tune, shows you new ways of hearing the way the pieces fit together, which is worth a listen.
And he is in fact absolutely opposed to judgements about whether someone is playing a tune "correctly" - he wants to hear what everyone brings, he's very sincere in this. This is why he invites anyone and everyone to play - we had a trumpet player sit down for forty-five minutes one time. If I recall correctly, I was able to sketch out some of the chords for "Autumn Leaves" for him, and he got in on some of the songs. Again, it could be annoying, and if you don't like it, you leave.
But the thing that's most missing from this is the place this guy opens up in the music scene: a session that brings in absolute beginners and interested musicians from other scenes, and somehow ends up being the most honestly sociable session in town. The music wasn't always something I'd have brought the family to hear, but I felt like I got more of the human part of the thing. Not for everybody, but I think the contrariness and obstinacy of the host were a big part of why it was there for the people who got something out of it.
Jon, I agree with some of your sentiments here. I actually have some deep fondness for our mutual acquaintenance.
What bothers me is that yer man won't just come clean and say "yes I realize that my session does not conform to the mainstream notion of what an ITM session is, and my playing style is not within the mainstream, and...I REALLY DON'T CARE!" That's a much more tenable position than insisting that there is no general consensus about topics within ITM and/or that nobody should be making judgments about anything.
Sessions are what they are, where you find them. It doesn't matter whether you're a Yank or Irish or English or whatever (particularly when you realize that sessions first started in the US and UK and were imported to Ireland after WWII, according to Hammy Hamilton who did his Ph.D. on the topic).
So crazy_fingers, I'm not so sure about your assertion that there *is* a general consensus about what a session is. It varies from one place to the next, and if you've spent much time chatting about your local session with yer mates, you'll find a bewildering array of perceptions of this thing we do (allegedly) in common. Your own experience reported above reflects that. I used to be astounded to hear, the day after, how one person's stellar evening was another's doldrums, and no two players felt the same about last night's fun.
Given that, it would be odd if people on three or five continents agreed on what a session is. Even in broad terms.
Consider 8 years worth of debate here:
A session is-----
playing music vs. a social lark vs. jokes and crack
a performance vs. testosterone-fueled one-upmanship vs. all-in participatory musical potluck
tunes vs. songs
an excuse to drink vs. teetotal time
smokey vs. smoke-free
as Gaelige vs. in English vs. in American vs. [insert language here]
pure drop vs. modern vs. new age
accompanied vs. melody-only
goatskinned vs. bodhran-free
unison vs. harmonic
fast vs. moderate vs. dirge
etc.
And that's just a small start. "General consensus?" Is that the guy who just lost his job in Afghanistan?
Will -- When I say general I do mean general. The various alternatives that you bring up probably all have a place under the general umbrella I am talking about. A 90 year man in crotchless red spandex playing Neil Diamond songs on a trombone...well, who am I to judge?
Hmmm...that doesn't sound like "consensus" to me. If your generalization is broad enough to include the dilemmas I listed, then it's meaningless (as most generalizations are).
Before you debate yer man again, you might want to add a few more years (and travels) to your session resume. Sessions are as variegated as the people who play in them.
crazy_fingers, in many sessions, "anything goes" is indeed what you get. And in place of some mysterious general consensus, what you'll find is individual idiosyncratic triggers at each session for what's accepted and what's not. The range of taste is astonishing.....
crazy_fingerz, I do hope you enjoy your session. You seem preoccupied at the moment. This general consensus bit may (or may not) be a red herring. If there is one it's definitely not printed in stone. That would be it's tombstone.
Cheers
I can understand the concern that CF is expressing, even if I don't share it quite as much as he does on this occasion. We're talking about something, a "session" (or, as some spell it, a "seisun"), and we all, more or less have the same idea. I think in 90% of cases, or thereabouts, we'd all agree that a thing is or is not a session - we recognize it when we see it, and we agree on it, to quite a high degree.
And now here's a guy who's saying "there's no statable definition of a session" - this seems to make no sense. Of course there's something that we're all recognizing, how could it be otherwise?
In a way, it's more of a philosophy question than anything.
And thinking on those lines, I'd say Wittgenstein is a reasonable place to look: many people these days are familiar with the "family resemblance" model of similarity, under which similarity consists of a set of shared characteristics, not all of which need be shared by any two members of the class under discussion. For example, Bob might have the Jones family chin, mouth, and ears, while his cousin has none of those features, but has the Jones family's typical eyes, nose, and horrendous overbite. Now, they share none of the family features, but if we're comparing them to a sort of "generic" or "prototypical" family member, one with ALL of the features, both will qualfy as "similar".
Wittgenstein discusses this, I can't remember if it's in the Blue and Brown Books or Philosophical Investigations, in relation to games: we have a set of "games", which includes baseball, chess, poker, marbles, crossword puzzles (arguably...), and so forth, which have no obvious single shared feature, but nonetheless share an overall similarity. (the case gets more interesting, when we consider the possible objects of the verb "to play"...)
Perhaps this is the trick to resolving Crazy Fingers' dilemma: we recognize this peculiar session as a session, and there's no damage to our notion of a "session" because it shares so much with other sessions - people sitting in a circle, sociable interactions, some regular and some irregular attendees, mostly Irish tunes and songs, musicians playing to each other, not to an audience, no leader or fixed band etc., etc. - that the peculiarly open nature of this particular session doesn't "break" our overall idea of what constitutes a session.
(notice that the list of features goes on and on, that the features overlap and imply each other - to me this suggests that it's a cohesive set, explaining how the institution is so inexplicably stable over time)
Whew. Okay, enough philosophy. I need to play a few tunes now...
Jon, being a former Bostonian I'm sure you're aware of the propensity to play "Sweet Caroline" at Fenway Park after the Red Sox win. Do they still do that? I haven't been to Fenway since Pedro Martinez was throwing no-hitters.
c_f, don't get your knickers in a twist, I'm just saying that these things we call sessions aren't all that homogenous.
Jon, I'd have to disagree. The "institution" of a session *isn't* so stable over time. Which is why you have "sessions" that are really just gigs, and "sessions" that feature noodling and rampant chordal improvising, and "sessions" where backers outnumber melody players 3 to 1.
If there really was some shared sense of what an Irish session is, then half of the threads on this site would've died off after one or two posts.
Besides, nothing but player sensibilities has "institutionalized" this activity (CCE's attempts notwithstanding). Those sensibilities run the gamut. And pub sessions have been around for only 70 years or so-- no so long a time.
Case in point: if someone *did* routinely play Neil Diamond songs at your session, would it still be an "Irish session"?
If not, why not? Back in the day, many respected Irish trad musicians (e.g. John Doherty) included European and American show tunes in their repertoires.
And since when did the clothes people wear determine the status of a session? I hope this doesn't mean we're all supposed to wear tweed walking caps and wool sweaters.....
"pub sessions have been around for only 70 years or so"
So goes the "official" version.
But people have had impromptu musical get-togethers in pubs for a long time, probably since pubs existed, and there's no particular reason why that would not have happened with Irish musicians, even in Ireland, even before they did it in New York or London, even if it's not in Wikipedia or Google!
My dad and uncles told me of the sessions they had (and that's the word they used) in pubs in rural Australia in the 30s where there was always a piano and often a fiddle too (and a lagerphone). Of course they played nothing like ITM (I assume), but that's not to say they couldn't have, especially if you go back to goldrush days in California and Australia
Herself likes Niel Diamond... Fond Memories of mixers at Notre Dame when Mr. Diamond was a mere wisp of a lad.
No protestors there this weekends visitor.
But Mr. Diamond sings better.
But what does this have to do with ITM? If I play Polkas and my Polish mother shows up with her lady freinds and they crowd out the Irish Dancers with the Polish 'stomp' is it still a session?
I'd just like to say that I particularly like the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain's rendition of Neil Diamond's "You Don't Bring Me Flowers", but it does have choreography in it.
I think sessions are a moveable feast, and happy is the person who finds one to their taste, and level of musicianship.
Bren, I'm just passing along the information that Hammy Hamilton, Mick Moloney, and others have dug up about pub sessions in Ireland. They all say that pub sessions in London and America predate those in Ireland.
FWIW (nothing--but that never stops us, eh?) I have read that pub sessions got started in England because Irish laborers lived in little bed-sitter rooms and needed more space to play.
Also, I would think that kitchen sessions would be the norm, in Irish towns with several players who already knew each other. One of them would have a house with enough room, and there you go--just friends and family, no need to put up with strangers.
I would guess that the modern version of the pub session got started as a social event, and a learning opportunity, for people who did not grow up with The Music. That's my situation, anyway, and the same goes for most people I meet at sessions. Whether that's good for The Music (more friends for it, more acceptance generally, attracts more people with talent to enrich it) or bad (homogenizes it, moves it away from its essential character) only time will tell.
c_f, from the sounds of your protestations, I wonder if you have an idealized notion of what sessions really are. In the end, they're just friends and neighbors getting together for music and a few pints. The music isn't always Irish trad and nothing else.
I found this with Google so you can take it how ever you please;
Hammy Hamilton, a well-known Irish flute maker, comments about the session and non-solo playing: “I’ve been working in this area for some time and I believe that there is a strong connection between the improvement in social and economic conditions in Ireland at the end of the 19th century and the rise of amateur playing of traditional music. It seems that previously the vast majority of players were professional. Non-solo playing doesn’t really appear until the early recordings of the 78 rpm period in the States. The session as we know it today is a much later development, in the majority of cases not being common until the 1950s! The earliest date that I can establish for a pub session is in the late 1930s and I think this would have been very unusual at the time.”
Well how do you define a session? I define it as 2 or more gathering together to play a few tunes.
Now, there are a couple of mid 19th C paintings showing exactly that. Which does rather disprove the idea that it is a 20th c innovation.
A session is a session. It certainly has nothing to do with the venue; pub, hill side, stage, or kitchen etc.
Whoa !
Re those paintings !
I'm not at all convinced that they show sessions.
I reckon that's a band, or a group of people come together to entertain.
Do you define that as a session ?
We've had this discussion before, and that's a GIG !
A session is primarily people playing for themselves, yes ?
Those of us who play sessions do have one wee bit of consensus.
When you play Irish music (not a song session) rarely if ever do session mates speak (whilst playing). I know.There are plenty of examples of session players' who never seem to stop talking. I'm shooting myself in the foot already. O. K. , OK, okay . . .
In the idyllic world of Irish sessions, where each player is contributing something musically, & there is little time for conversation; because there are so --- ooo---ooooo many tunes, each & every player is part of a grand consensus. One can only disagree with another when they are discussing something (like all of them over at thesession.org) When you play, how can you disagree? Then, & maybe only then, there is the consensus. Of course, once the playing stops it is utter pandemonium & there is anything but consensus. Best to start more tunes.
I don't even believe it once it's typed. Cheers crazy_fingerz!
I gave her my best shot. Now I'll limp away.
Consensus was probably the wrong word for me to use. Please strike it from the record. Thanks to Jon for the Wittgenstein stuff, that basically covers what was trying to express.
Well c_f, you were right in your original post: your "truths" is a far sight more grandiose than Jon's "cohesive set." Could be why the old guy at your session took you to task....
Will, I give up. You seem like a decent and reasonable fellow most of the time, but in this case it seems you have constructed for yourself some imaginary and exaggerated version of what I said in my original post and then you have proceeded to attack that rather than the moderate and qualified things I actually said. I am sorry if that sounds harsh but it's no fun being deliberately misconstrued to either. Anyhow, it's probably time to just let this thead die, although I will understand if you want the last word...
Oh, sorry, but you're reading "vitriol" in my posts, but I'm intending "humor." My bad--not enough smilies.
All I'm saying is that based on the words you used in your original post, if you spoke similarly during your "heated discussion" at the pub, I can understand why the guy argued back and took the stance he did.
No reason to take umbrage. Even you agree that *Jon* (not yourself) said what you meant.
Huh, I just read back over this thread, and it seems, c_f, that you've got a bee up your bonnet. You asked a question and didn't like some of the answers, and now you're all het up over it.
I ain't het up. The starkness of this text format can be deceptive
This is probably overkill, but I will take another shot at clarifying where I am coming from with this thread...
So as I mentioned in the original post, I had this strange discussion/argument with the guy in the pub. The logical conclusion from the sorts of views he was espousing is that there is no content whatsoever to the concept of what an Irish trad session is, or the concept of how a reel or polka is traditionally played, and so on. He was not saying it that way, but it's the clear logical culmination of what we was saying.
Now, I want to make this clear: I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS GREAT PERIL IN TRYING TO FIND RIGID DEFINITIONS FOR SUCH CONCEPTS!
I am not advocating rigid definitions. I am not claiming that I personally have definitions or that I will ever get any of this stuff sorted out. Purely as a side note,I am a bit curious about whether have I any prayer of figuring this stuff out given that I am American and a relative newcomer to ITM, so that's why I mentioned issue #1 in my post.
But I am much more interested in the question that has nothing to do with me personally -- is there content to the concepts of "ITM session", "traditional style", etc.
Any "definition" or "consensus" around these concepts is OF COURSE going to be a shades-of-gray nuanced Wittgensteinian (or Lakoffian) construct with lots of qualifications, caveats, exceptions, and even glorious inconsistencies. So as I think you were pointing out earlier, such a hazy "definition" may appear to border on meaninglessness or uselessness. But I would argue that these hazy definitions are far from meaningless or useless - - they are the essence of what it means to grok and appreciate the tradition(s?) with all of the associated richness and variety therein.
The extreme to which my sparring partner seems to want to go amounts to sheer nihilism. Saying that anything and everything that anyone feels should be included within the realm of iTM is automatically legitimately within that realm is decimating the idea of a tradition at all.
So I guess that at some level, this guy's views bother me because they seem logically untenable. It bothers me the same way that somebody who believes the earth is flat would bother me. Something in me just keeps saying "Do you honestly believe this? Really? REALLY?" (Some might say that this reactions is rooted in intellectual integrity. Some would say that I am prone to overanalysizing. Whatever.)
So I was in this sort of bewildered state about the whole thing, and I was hoping that the collective of wisdom of the mustard board would shed some light on the issue. And Will, it kind of seems like you are taking the side of the flat-earthers just because earth isn't a perfect sphere.
Anyhow...I said the thread should die and now I am flogging it some more...
I don't see how that guy's notion of sessions that are amorphous is like being a flat-earther. His view has a lot of merit, actually.
Isn't it possible that in your 5 years with this music you have a fairly limited experience of all the sorts of "Irish sessions" that exist in the world? Compared at least to someone with 3 or 4 or 5 decades in the music?
Sure, I think the guy was just winding you up anyway.
Poor crazy fingers! [Bill Clinton voice] "I feel your pain."
There is content, of course, though it's flexible (I'd be burnt at the stake if there was a real Trad Police for some of the things I'd let go on in good fun, I'm sure) and a reel is a reel and a polka is a polka, sure, and any dancer will tell you they want them a certain speed.
...and like Will says, I think the guy was yanking yer chain a bit too.
Will asks: Isn't it possible that in your 5 years with this music you have a fairly limited experience of all the sorts of "Irish sessions" that exist in the world? Compared at least to someone with 3 or 4 or 5 decades in the music?
Indeed. That's why I am asking for input from this website. I am not claiming to know much of anything. Quite the opposite.
All that I claim to "know" is that there is indeed some substantial content to the tradition beyond "anything goes". I don't claim to know what that content is. Indeed, and this is why I repeatedly and emphatically pointed out that I don't claim to have the answers about what is or is not a session, a proper rendering of a reel, etc.
So you can keep beating me up for making naive and grandiose claims but that doesn't mean I am actually making them.
I wish I could write this off as chain yanking but I have a long enough history this with gent to know that he is totally committed to these views.
Well, you're asking and then not accepting the responses.
From your OP, I have to say that I agree with his point that nobody has the right to pass judgment on the proper way to play a reel. But that's far from "anything goes." You've taken a specific point about playing one sort of tune and extrapolated it into anything goes. That sounds naive and grandiose to me.
c_f, in all good humor and good faith, I'd respectfully suggest (based on my own 30 years playing this music) that you keep your ears and eyes open for another decade or so and then see if you don't look back and realize that you had some preconceptions about this music that turn out to be unfounded. I can certainly say this has been true for me, and I no doubt still have plenty to learn (and unlearn).
Reminds me of that old Mark Twain joke. "When I was 16, I couldn't understand how anyone as dumb as my old man could survive in the world. Then when I was 28, I was astonished how much the old man had learned!"
Maybe your old man in this case isn't as off-the-mark as you believe.
Some examples of interesting things I've seen included and welcomed (by brilliant players well steeped in the tradition) at traditional Irish sessions:
Highland Bagpipes
Johnny Cash songs (lots of them, in a row)
electric bass
a man in a blouse and skirt (very good fiddler, knew all the tunes, too)
cymbals
a hookah
a 45-minute set of movie soundtrack music (none of it Irish)
Balkan, Swedish, and Israeli folk tunes
Lebanese folk songs
That's quite a list,Will ... and to which I can add: traditional Chinese fiddle and a very loud but mesmeric traditional Chinese opera singer.Both at the same session in a Manchester(UK) pub.
Can I add to the list, too, Will? A brilliant rendition of Satisfaction sung by a man from The Netherlands who was utterly and completely p i ss ed. This was at a small pub in Carrick, Donegal several years ago. It was the highlight of the session that night.
My 2 cents about this question is: the "content" of a traditional session depends on a lot of things. Like who is there, where it is, what time it is, is there drink involved, how long people have been playing their instruments, how long they have been playing together, etc, etc.... It's situational. You can go with it and often have a lot of fun. Or you can find (or start) something else that gives you more pleasure.
Let me interject here one point of fact: the fellow from Clare was not jesting or joking or jiving or in any way undertaking a windup. I know this guy, and he's dead serious on this. His position is, and I'm paraphrasing here, that no individual can legitimately say that any one way of playing a tune is not "traditional" or "Irish". I promise you, he believes and preaches and lives this gospel. And when CF says he believes it's a matter of "anything goes", he's not exaggerating, he's reporting the straight dope.
Now we can talk about what "session" "means", and I still think there's something to say about that, but for the moment, I'll leave it at that: yer man from Clare is dead set on holding down the absolutist "anything goes" posiiton.
See, that doesn't surprise me, because all is a session really is is friends and neighbors getting together for crack over music and pints. And the Irish themselves, as a culture, have been borrowing from other cultures forever. Which is why you have polkas, mazurkas, hornpipes, etc. in this tradition to begin with (not to mention all those Scottish reels). These influences occurred because people were open to them, not beholden to some narrow sense of the "content of the tradition."
Read the Northern FIddler--those old kitchen sessions included show tunes from the Continent, recitations, jokes, whatever. People who think that sessions are (or should be) limited just to twee Irishness are missing the point altogether
And not just music from other cultures, but instruments too--the fiddle, flute, then a fair flood of "foreign" banjos, pianos, accordions, concertinas, and bouzoukis. Those are dramatic departures from the "content" of the tradition.
The concept of an "Irish session" just isn't as static and well-defined and "conventional" as c_f appears to think it is.
Had a guy play a beer can at a session once in Sutherland. He was really quite good, the massed drummers got a little precious though...."thats disgraceful, he has no respect etc......", the beer can man was better than the rest put together, knew most if not all the tunes, on the beer can lol and when we asked him to sit down the looks we got would tarnish metal. The guy declined though, as he was just out for a drink with his pals, nice guy and what a good sound he managed to get from a flattened beer can played with his unquestionably tough fingers. Cracking tune if I remember correctly......... another three days in the open neck shirt.....................
A session is a group of friends and neighbors getting together for some musical fun over a few pints. But that's exactly why someone with different ideas as to what a session should be can ruin it, because their idea of fun might be different than yours.
So if this is an ongoing theme at that session, maybe you won't want to frequent that session. I'm not one to tell people what they can and can't do at their session. But there are a lot of sessions I won't go to because I don't like the music, or how they're run. But I also try to encourage people not to do things that I don't like at the sessions that I am involved in organizing... Now if this is a long-running session with no real organization, or session "anchors", who try to guide the session down a particular path, then your only recourse is to not go to that session, I guess.
And I agree with Will, there's potentially a lot to be learned from someone who has been playing the music for significantly longer than you have. So it's good to have an open mind.
"But that's exactly why someone with different ideas as to what a session should be can ruin it...."
Precisely my point. People have all sorts of various ideas of what's fun and what a session should be. And that can change from one week to the next, or even over the span of a single night at the same session. Enough so that any preconceived "content" may become meaningless.
For example, we've had nights where the regulars show up expecting to play jigs and reels all night. Only to find a group of old timey fiddlers (from out of town) at the bar, eager to join in. Some of us regulars had a great time plowing through Appalachian tunes, sprinkled with Irish stuff now and then. But a few regulars went home grumpy because they didn't get to play their own stuff all night. My response (when they later complained) was that we made a bunch of new friends that night, played a lot of good music, and it's not likely to happen that particular way again for months or a year or more, so get over it.
What I've noticed over the years is that the people who are most bothered by a departure from the "norm" (whatever that might be for a given session) tend to be the weaker players who can't readily adapt to something new or unfamiliar or "unconventional."
Will, maybe the pure drop curmudgeons know what they want.
Everyone has different experiences with sessions. We get it already!
crazy_fingerz,, you do seem to be a wee bit naive. Still, I appreciate your vision of what you want in your session.
Will is correct about the diversity of sessions & the flexibility of good musicians. They are ephemeral experiences & one does not always know what to expect. Having said that, I think you deserve some credit.
You obviously enjoy your session. This one guy, who seems to share some of Will's philosophy, is driving you crazy. Fifty years worth of sessioning& all he has to do is look you right in eye & say, " Mr. Fingerz, I was once your age & I too was in search of the essence of Irish music. I spent many a session hoping this would be the one. Finally I surrendered the ideals of my youth. Now I play for the craic. Anything goes! Fair play to you. But, no one can ever tell you what is a session."
It would be grand to hear those words come off his lips. Don't hold your breath.
Cheers!
[It's amusing to see how often people rail on others here about voicing their thoughts, since that's really all any of us can do on this site.....]
Erm, Aubby, that's not *my* "philosophy." Just how sessions are. And if I met c_f's session mate, I'm not at all sure that we'd get along musically. I'm juts saying that I can see his point of view and why he sees holes in c_f's side of the debate.
If I were at the session described in the original post, I'd be the one playing tunes and swilling pints while these two guys were arguing.....
From c_f's OP: "Seems that he does not approve of me passing judgment on things like whether or not a reel is played properly, or whether or not a particular musical outing in the music is "really" an Irish trad session or not."
Even with your "shades of grey," this sounds like you're well into prescribing and proscribing how to play reels "properly" and whether a musical outing is really an Irish trad session or not.
I've stuck to your own words, c_f,--"content" and "consensus." You've either retracted them or simply ignored the points I made. And implied that I'm being unreasonable simply because I don't agree with you.
Yes, I can understand why yet man took you to task.....
To put it bluntly--yes, human existence (including perceptions of what session are or should be) is indeed a great big hairball of subjectivity.
How can it be otherwise? Before school shootings became all the rage, every Psych 101 class used to do the eyewitness experiment: in mid lecture, someone walks in and murders the teacher and flees. Shock and horror. Then the teach stands back up and asks the class to describe the assailant. You'll get as many descriptions as there are students in the class. Sessions work the same way (tho usually murdering the music ).
Camus said it famously--we believe what we want to believe. He called t the philosophy of preference. You called it a hairball of subjectivity. Same thing.
And more to the point, there is nothing wrong with playing a reel as a slow air. It's done all the time. Whether yer man's tempo was "uneven" or not I can't say, not having been there. It's possible that his rhythm was spot on but his *timing* was far different than what you're accustomed to hearing and so you perceived it as uneven. Regardless, for you to suggest that he wasn't playing the tune properly is the height of naivete and ignorance of this music. He was playing the tune as he heard it in his head. Fair play.
'Seems that he does not approve of me passing judgment on things like whether or not a reel is played properly, or whether or not a particular musical outing in the music is "really" an Irish trad session or not.'
What I wrote was very misleading. I should make it clear: I was not _actually_ spouting off judgments about these things. The questions being argued were: do I, or does anyone, _in principle_ have a right to make such judgments. To me the issue hinges on whether there is any basis, beyond pure personal opinion, for deciding what is a typical way to play a reel, or what are typical characteristics of an Irish session, etc.
I can see why my OP could imply that I was sitting there spouting off opinions about the "one true way" and this guy rightly took me down a notch. And in his mind, this probably is what happened....but really, it's not what was going on.
It's time to come clean about your agenda cf. Honestly, is it not your intent to control ITM sessions world-wide? Both what is played and how it is played? Your plan is to start at your local session and then systematically spread your destructive tentacles... I think Will fears that he's next. There's got to be a reason why they call you "crazy fingerz!"
Watch out Will, you and your session are under threat!
" I am a bit curious about whether have I any prayer of figuring this stuff out given that I am American and a relative newcomer to ITM " crazy_fingerz
At this point in the discussion I doubt anyone has figured this stuff out. Michael Gill has stated the tunes are not puzzles.
Will Harmon has said ITM is not rocket surgery. In other words don't beat yourself up over your love of Irish music.
Make the most of listening & playing at your local session. Seek out other sessions as well.
Very likely they will all contribute to your understanding of what is a session.
" . . given that I am American " . . . this is where immersion is important.
Immerse yourself in traditional music anyway you are able. Experience helps.
" & a relative newcomer to ITM . . ." { unless you decide otherwise } you never stop learning.
Fair play for talking with your man from Clare.
Once you're done; grab your instrument so you don't miss any more tunes.
;)
I just started reading some of the other discussions.
The following comment seems to address part of your question.
Nothing Michael hasn't said before, though, I felt it was a bit timely.
Priceless mustard from someone who does not play rubbish.
Funny, I don't recall ever saying or implying that c_f had an agenda, or even thinking such a thing. I've been coming at this more from the angle that c_f is simply relatively inexperience when it comes to the range and diversity of what sessions are. And all I've said is that it's pointless to try to pigeon hole what a session (or a reel) "should" be.
Something I've posted repeatedly on this site is the notion that sessions are more fun and fulfilling when people come to them with open minds instead of a head full of expectations of how the night will turn out. Newbies to this are often disappointed if their favorite tunes don't get played, or if their tunes are played but not in the sets they "usually" do them in. And they're disappointed if the tunes are too fast or too slow or in the "wrong" key, etc., ad nauseum.
Better, I think, to let the session be what it will be that night, and roll with the flow. If it consistently leaves you feeling somehow unhappy or disappointed, go elsewhere. Or start your own, with explicit expectations(no matter how broad) of what it will be. And then have fun enforcing compliance.
What's a session?
What's a session?
I got into a heated discussion with someone in a pub last night. Some background about him...he has been playing Irish music for 50 years or so, but his way of playing tunes is, well, unconventional. He might play a reel more like an air, at a slow and uneven tempo. It can sound nice, but it is not session friendly, at least per my thinking about sessions. And this is the crux of the discussion that ensued last night...
Seems that he does not approve of me passing judgment on things like whether or not a reel is played properly, or whether or not a particular musical outing in the music is "really" an Irish trad session or not. Now to be fair, I pointed out repeatedly that there are shades of gray in such matters, not rigid definitions, but even this qualified and moderated point of view was offensive to my mate.
His arguments, if I parse them correctly, were:
(1) I personally can't know much about how reels are properly played, or what a "real" ITM session is, or any number of other topics, because I am American and have only been playing ITM for around 5 years
(2) In fact, nobody has the right to pass judgment on what the proper way to play a tune is, what an ITM session is, etc. As long as somebody gets enjoyment out of playing or listening to music, then that is a session, end of story
Now like I said, I don't claim that there is a black and white definition of these concepts or others, or that I possess the definitions. But my claim to my mate was that, amongst the practitioners and aficionados of ITM, there is a range of opinions which are not evenly distributed but rather have a definite concentration around some common beliefs and views -- a sort of mainstream conventional wisdom of ITM. And thus I conclude that there are "truths" to be known about ITM, which form a factual basis against which opinions can be judged to be more or less correct. That is, it's not just a great big hairball of subjectivity.
This all seemed more grandiose with alcohol involved
Thoughts?
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
Play with someone else.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by reenactor
Re: What's a session?
sounds like you were dancing about architecture
if the majority were always right then McDonalds would have Michelin stars
gawd, I feel like Eric Cantona here
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Bren
Re: What's a session?
Play anywhere else.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: What's a session?
I think you answered your own question 'concentration around some common beliefs and views -- a sort of mainstream conventional wisdom of ITM'--and then there's everything else that falls outside that conventional view yet is still within the tradition, so to speak. Thank God for that bit that falls outside the mainstream! Life would be a little dull wouldn't it?
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by shanty
Re: What's a session?
You can play for 50 years and still play badly and know
nothing. That happens if you start out with the attitude that
you're a genius who knows everything.
A session to me means playing music together, not putting on
a show of your own mediocrity (or "genius" if you like).
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Hup
Re: What's a session?
I think it was the wise bard, Will CPT who once said something along the lines of, people behave in a session much like they do elsewhere in their lives. While I personally have no problem with the occasional "solo interpretation" of a few tunes, session music is communal - at least to me. If your man of 50 plus years wishes to play tunes in a manner that is random or unwelcoming to all those around him, I'm not sure why he bothers going. Sounds like a bit of an odd bird to me.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: What's a session?
I don't know *any* airs that have an uneven rhythm - certainly not like a deliberately wonked-up reel. Playing even a slow air is like tickling a trout - the time it takes may vary, but you don't jolt the action or the whole thing goes skew-whiff.
Some people *do* seem to define "a session" as what fits into their own particular comfort zone, which can be very narrow. This can come with too much alcohol early in life, or ageing, or a combination of both factors.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by nicholas
Re: What's a session?
I thought a session is where a bunch of people play Irish music together. If you can't play together, it's not a session. It's just some guy playing alone.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by sbhikes
Re: What's a session?
Everything depends on the traditions of the particular session. When a tambourine player appeared at my local session and argued that her "instrument" was indeed part of traditional Irish music, I explained that it was not part of "our tradition here" and this seemed to work. Of course, if the player in question has a long established "tradition" at the pub then you're out of luck!
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by leoj
Re: What's a session?
Less talking more playing..brass neck it start tunes..look for consensus..majority rules..f uck it.. a session is a pretty simple formula..u go u play tunes in a similar way to other people..and learn new ones..why make it complicated..if some aul fella wants to play a few tunes his way let him..if he's excessive bordering on doolally, politely explain that its not a solo performance unless its his gig he has no comeback..why not even learn a couple of his tunes or show an interest to placate him..Otherwise just play sets over the top of him and dont give him a chance to start tunes..or go elsewhere..
"In fact, nobody has the right to pass judgment on what the proper way to play a tune is, what an ITM session is, etc. As long as somebody gets enjoyment out of playing or listening to music, then that is a session, end of story.."
...The traditional itself dictates and judges what way a tunes can be played..there are certain accepted boundaries..this is a stupid arguement..its not f ucking Jazz..
"As long as somebody gets enjoyment out of playing or listening to music, then that is a session, end of story.."
...a response possibly reflective of an inability to perform or progress in the confines of the tradition..Or indeed a "cop -out"..
I have sympathy in that you may have to tolerate this man, often in the states sessions are thin on the ground. You may not have choice elsewhere. If you want to go to extemes, approach the managment and make it a private gig with select musicians..this is a bit sly though and the aul fella is entitled to his choons as much as u, if not more.. Arguing is bad idea, especially with aul fellas, theyl just train ther dogs to bite ye and go out of there way to do the very thing you dont like. Win him round, dont insitgate what is in affect an anally rententive argument..make the aul f ucker laugh and buy hima drink, maybe even get him so drunk he cant play tunes.. As is an effective anti Bodhran strategy..
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: What's a session?
"make the aul f ucker laugh and buy him a drink" - good advice. I've gotten out of many tight spots employing this very strategy. When that fails, a swift head-butt to the bridge of the nose works well too.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: What's a session?
u hed butt old men..thats grim
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: What's a session?
i also wonder if u r trawling for me to admit somthing which may or may not ever have happened recently..do i know u. (consults ur profile)
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: What's a session?
God did not define the word "session". If you play together, it's a session. If you play in a style that descends from those before you, it's traditional. If you play in a way that others like, they will be happy that you play. Mainstream opinion is important, but that's all it is - no, mainstream opinion is not a "truth", and it's not binding on anybody. This thread is about nothing.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Alex Wilding
Re: What's a session?
PS (why oh why can't we edit our posts?) your mate has a point in (1). As an American with 5 years in the tradition you are entitled to an opinion, but it is not one that can yet carry much weight, certainly not as compared with someone who grew up with the music and has played it for several decades. Though of course, that person is also not God.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Alex Wilding
Re: What's a session?
unless like Morgan Freeman..he is
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: What's a session?
Hes gota come again some time ..why not as a wee out man with Doolally choons and uncompromising opinions...I would listen to what this man is telling you
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: What's a session?
aul man* (blesses self)
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: What's a session?
Well, this has been fascinating!
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
As it turns out, the fellow in question is a guy I've played with a fair bit, and what CF says is quite true, but perhaps not the whole story. He does in fact have an odd way of approaching some tunes, something that I've always thought of as a "cubist" approach. Totally impossible to play with, but he doesn't do it all the time, and it does give a new light on a tune, shows you new ways of hearing the way the pieces fit together, which is worth a listen.
And he is in fact absolutely opposed to judgements about whether someone is playing a tune "correctly" - he wants to hear what everyone brings, he's very sincere in this. This is why he invites anyone and everyone to play - we had a trumpet player sit down for forty-five minutes one time. If I recall correctly, I was able to sketch out some of the chords for "Autumn Leaves" for him, and he got in on some of the songs. Again, it could be annoying, and if you don't like it, you leave.
But the thing that's most missing from this is the place this guy opens up in the music scene: a session that brings in absolute beginners and interested musicians from other scenes, and somehow ends up being the most honestly sociable session in town. The music wasn't always something I'd have brought the family to hear, but I felt like I got more of the human part of the thing. Not for everybody, but I think the contrariness and obstinacy of the host were a big part of why it was there for the people who got something out of it.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What's a session?
Jon, I agree with some of your sentiments here. I actually have some deep fondness for our mutual acquaintenance.
What bothers me is that yer man won't just come clean and say "yes I realize that my session does not conform to the mainstream notion of what an ITM session is, and my playing style is not within the mainstream, and...I REALLY DON'T CARE!" That's a much more tenable position than insisting that there is no general consensus about topics within ITM and/or that nobody should be making judgments about anything.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
But if yer man were the sort to be reasonable, would he really be doing what he's doing?
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What's a session?
Sessions are what they are, where you find them. It doesn't matter whether you're a Yank or Irish or English or whatever (particularly when you realize that sessions first started in the US and UK and were imported to Ireland after WWII, according to Hammy Hamilton who did his Ph.D. on the topic).
So crazy_fingers, I'm not so sure about your assertion that there *is* a general consensus about what a session is. It varies from one place to the next, and if you've spent much time chatting about your local session with yer mates, you'll find a bewildering array of perceptions of this thing we do (allegedly) in common. Your own experience reported above reflects that. I used to be astounded to hear, the day after, how one person's stellar evening was another's doldrums, and no two players felt the same about last night's fun.
Given that, it would be odd if people on three or five continents agreed on what a session is. Even in broad terms.
Consider 8 years worth of debate here:
A session is-----
playing music vs. a social lark vs. jokes and crack
a performance vs. testosterone-fueled one-upmanship vs. all-in participatory musical potluck
tunes vs. songs
an excuse to drink vs. teetotal time
smokey vs. smoke-free
as Gaelige vs. in English vs. in American vs. [insert language here]
pure drop vs. modern vs. new age
accompanied vs. melody-only
goatskinned vs. bodhran-free
unison vs. harmonic
fast vs. moderate vs. dirge
etc.
And that's just a small start. "General consensus?" Is that the guy who just lost his job in Afghanistan?
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Will -- When I say general I do mean general. The various alternatives that you bring up probably all have a place under the general umbrella I am talking about. A 90 year man in crotchless red spandex playing Neil Diamond songs on a trombone...well, who am I to judge?
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
Hmmm...that doesn't sound like "consensus" to me. If your generalization is broad enough to include the dilemmas I listed, then it's meaningless (as most generalizations are).
Before you debate yer man again, you might want to add a few more years (and travels) to your session resume. Sessions are as variegated as the people who play in them.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
A broad and inclusive definition is not meaningless. (Useless, maybe.) It's still a long way from a broad and inclusive definition to "anything goes".
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
Wow, 90 year old man in crotchless red spandex with a trombone?
I dare any of you buggers to give this Florida boy crap about letting the hammered dulcimer player sit in again. Go on, I dare ye.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What's a session?
crazy_fingers, in many sessions, "anything goes" is indeed what you get. And in place of some mysterious general consensus, what you'll find is individual idiosyncratic triggers at each session for what's accepted and what's not. The range of taste is astonishing.....
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Well all right then Will. Silly me for thinking there was actually some content to this tradition.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
crazy_fingerz, I do hope you enjoy your session. You seem preoccupied at the moment. This general consensus bit may (or may not) be a red herring. If there is one it's definitely not printed in stone. That would be it's tombstone.
Cheers
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
SWFL - To be honest, it's the Neil Diamond part that gives me the creeping heebie-jeebies.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What's a session?
I can understand the concern that CF is expressing, even if I don't share it quite as much as he does on this occasion. We're talking about something, a "session" (or, as some spell it, a "seisun"), and we all, more or less have the same idea. I think in 90% of cases, or thereabouts, we'd all agree that a thing is or is not a session - we recognize it when we see it, and we agree on it, to quite a high degree.
And now here's a guy who's saying "there's no statable definition of a session" - this seems to make no sense. Of course there's something that we're all recognizing, how could it be otherwise?
In a way, it's more of a philosophy question than anything.
And thinking on those lines, I'd say Wittgenstein is a reasonable place to look: many people these days are familiar with the "family resemblance" model of similarity, under which similarity consists of a set of shared characteristics, not all of which need be shared by any two members of the class under discussion. For example, Bob might have the Jones family chin, mouth, and ears, while his cousin has none of those features, but has the Jones family's typical eyes, nose, and horrendous overbite. Now, they share none of the family features, but if we're comparing them to a sort of "generic" or "prototypical" family member, one with ALL of the features, both will qualfy as "similar".
Wittgenstein discusses this, I can't remember if it's in the Blue and Brown Books or Philosophical Investigations, in relation to games: we have a set of "games", which includes baseball, chess, poker, marbles, crossword puzzles (arguably...), and so forth, which have no obvious single shared feature, but nonetheless share an overall similarity. (the case gets more interesting, when we consider the possible objects of the verb "to play"...)
Perhaps this is the trick to resolving Crazy Fingers' dilemma: we recognize this peculiar session as a session, and there's no damage to our notion of a "session" because it shares so much with other sessions - people sitting in a circle, sociable interactions, some regular and some irregular attendees, mostly Irish tunes and songs, musicians playing to each other, not to an audience, no leader or fixed band etc., etc. - that the peculiarly open nature of this particular session doesn't "break" our overall idea of what constitutes a session.
(notice that the list of features goes on and on, that the features overlap and imply each other - to me this suggests that it's a cohesive set, explaining how the institution is so inexplicably stable over time)
Whew. Okay, enough philosophy. I need to play a few tunes now...
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What's a session?
I like the philosphy!
Jon, being a former Bostonian I'm sure you're aware of the propensity to play "Sweet Caroline" at Fenway Park after the Red Sox win. Do they still do that? I haven't been to Fenway since Pedro Martinez was throwing no-hitters.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What's a session?
c_f, don't get your knickers in a twist, I'm just saying that these things we call sessions aren't all that homogenous.
Jon, I'd have to disagree. The "institution" of a session *isn't* so stable over time. Which is why you have "sessions" that are really just gigs, and "sessions" that feature noodling and rampant chordal improvising, and "sessions" where backers outnumber melody players 3 to 1.
If there really was some shared sense of what an Irish session is, then half of the threads on this site would've died off after one or two posts.
Besides, nothing but player sensibilities has "institutionalized" this activity (CCE's attempts notwithstanding). Those sensibilities run the gamut. And pub sessions have been around for only 70 years or so-- no so long a time.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Case in point: if someone *did* routinely play Neil Diamond songs at your session, would it still be an "Irish session"?
If not, why not? Back in the day, many respected Irish trad musicians (e.g. John Doherty) included European and American show tunes in their repertoires.
And since when did the clothes people wear determine the status of a session? I hope this doesn't mean we're all supposed to wear tweed walking caps and wool sweaters.....
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
I do like Neil Diamond.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
"pub sessions have been around for only 70 years or so"
So goes the "official" version.
But people have had impromptu musical get-togethers in pubs for a long time, probably since pubs existed, and there's no particular reason why that would not have happened with Irish musicians, even in Ireland, even before they did it in New York or London, even if it's not in Wikipedia or Google!
My dad and uncles told me of the sessions they had (and that's the word they used) in pubs in rural Australia in the 30s where there was always a piano and often a fiddle too (and a lagerphone). Of course they played nothing like ITM (I assume), but that's not to say they couldn't have, especially if you go back to goldrush days in California and Australia
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Bren
Re: What's a session?
Herself likes Niel Diamond... Fond Memories of mixers at Notre Dame when Mr. Diamond was a mere wisp of a lad.
No protestors there this weekends visitor.
But Mr. Diamond sings better.
But what does this have to do with ITM? If I play Polkas and my Polish mother shows up with her lady freinds and they crowd out the Irish Dancers with the Polish 'stomp' is it still a session?
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by zippydw
Re: What's a session?
"...good times never seem so good..."
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What's a session?
I'd just like to say that I particularly like the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain's rendition of Neil Diamond's "You Don't Bring Me Flowers", but it does have choreography in it.
I think sessions are a moveable feast, and happy is the person who finds one to their taste, and level of musicianship.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What's a session?
Bren, I'm just passing along the information that Hammy Hamilton, Mick Moloney, and others have dug up about pub sessions in Ireland. They all say that pub sessions in London and America predate those in Ireland.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
"But what does this have to do with ITM?"
Anything goes! it's all ITM!
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
FWIW (nothing--but that never stops us, eh?) I have read that pub sessions got started in England because Irish laborers lived in little bed-sitter rooms and needed more space to play.
Also, I would think that kitchen sessions would be the norm, in Irish towns with several players who already knew each other. One of them would have a house with enough room, and there you go--just friends and family, no need to put up with strangers.
I would guess that the modern version of the pub session got started as a social event, and a learning opportunity, for people who did not grow up with The Music. That's my situation, anyway, and the same goes for most people I meet at sessions. Whether that's good for The Music (more friends for it, more acceptance generally, attracts more people with talent to enrich it) or bad (homogenizes it, moves it away from its essential character) only time will tell.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by John Galt
Re: What's a session?
c_f, from the sounds of your protestations, I wonder if you have an idealized notion of what sessions really are. In the end, they're just friends and neighbors getting together for music and a few pints. The music isn't always Irish trad and nothing else.
(There I go, championing the obvious again....)
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
I found this with Google so you can take it how ever you please;
Hammy Hamilton, a well-known Irish flute maker, comments about the session and non-solo playing: “I’ve been working in this area for some time and I believe that there is a strong connection between the improvement in social and economic conditions in Ireland at the end of the 19th century and the rise of amateur playing of traditional music. It seems that previously the vast majority of players were professional. Non-solo playing doesn’t really appear until the early recordings of the 78 rpm period in the States. The session as we know it today is a much later development, in the majority of cases not being common until the 1950s! The earliest date that I can establish for a pub session is in the late 1930s and I think this would have been very unusual at the time.”
The Irish “Session” (Part 1)
by Stewart Hendrickson
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hend/VictoryMusic/TheIrishSession1.html
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
Well how do you define a session? I define it as 2 or more gathering together to play a few tunes.
Now, there are a couple of mid 19th C paintings showing exactly that. Which does rather disprove the idea that it is a 20th c innovation.
A session is a session. It certainly has nothing to do with the venue; pub, hill side, stage, or kitchen etc.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What's a session?
Whoa !
Re those paintings !
I'm not at all convinced that they show sessions.
I reckon that's a band, or a group of people come together to entertain.
Do you define that as a session ?
We've had this discussion before, and that's a GIG !
A session is primarily people playing for themselves, yes ?
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What's a session?
LOL, so much for c_f's "general consensus."
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
There i a 5 year anniversary coming soon!
June 3rd 2004 by Phantom Button
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3705
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
*
There eye. . . no ' there is . . . '
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
Those of us who play sessions do have one wee bit of consensus.
When you play Irish music (not a song session) rarely if ever do session mates speak (whilst playing). I know.There are plenty of examples of session players' who never seem to stop talking. I'm shooting myself in the foot already. O. K. , OK, okay . . .
In the idyllic world of Irish sessions, where each player is contributing something musically, & there is little time for conversation; because there are so --- ooo---ooooo many tunes, each & every player is part of a grand consensus. One can only disagree with another when they are discussing something (like all of them over at thesession.org) When you play, how can you disagree? Then, & maybe only then, there is the consensus. Of course, once the playing stops it is utter pandemonium & there is anything but consensus. Best to start more tunes.
I don't even believe it once it's typed. Cheers crazy_fingerz!
I gave her my best shot. Now I'll limp away.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
Consensus was probably the wrong word for me to use. Please strike it from the record. Thanks to Jon for the Wittgenstein stuff, that basically covers what was trying to express.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
I knew all that book learnin' would come in handy some time.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What's a session?
Cheers. What Jon said.
Ludwig Wittgenstein's Language Game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b65pUXdVEck&feature
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
Well c_f, you were right in your original post: your "truths" is a far sight more grandiose than Jon's "cohesive set." Could be why the old guy at your session took you to task....
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Will, I give up. You seem like a decent and reasonable fellow most of the time, but in this case it seems you have constructed for yourself some imaginary and exaggerated version of what I said in my original post and then you have proceeded to attack that rather than the moderate and qualified things I actually said. I am sorry if that sounds harsh but it's no fun being deliberately misconstrued to either. Anyhow, it's probably time to just let this thead die, although I will understand if you want the last word...
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
Oh, sorry, but you're reading "vitriol" in my posts, but I'm intending "humor." My bad--not enough smilies.
All I'm saying is that based on the words you used in your original post, if you spoke similarly during your "heated discussion" at the pub, I can understand why the guy argued back and took the stance he did.
No reason to take umbrage. Even you agree that *Jon* (not yourself) said what you meant.
Cheers
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Huh, I just read back over this thread, and it seems, c_f, that you've got a bee up your bonnet. You asked a question and didn't like some of the answers, and now you're all het up over it.
Or am I reading in heat where you intended humor?
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
I ain't het up. The starkness of this text format can be deceptive
This is probably overkill, but I will take another shot at clarifying where I am coming from with this thread...
So as I mentioned in the original post, I had this strange discussion/argument with the guy in the pub. The logical conclusion from the sorts of views he was espousing is that there is no content whatsoever to the concept of what an Irish trad session is, or the concept of how a reel or polka is traditionally played, and so on. He was not saying it that way, but it's the clear logical culmination of what we was saying.
Now, I want to make this clear: I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS GREAT PERIL IN TRYING TO FIND RIGID DEFINITIONS FOR SUCH CONCEPTS!
I am not advocating rigid definitions. I am not claiming that I personally have definitions or that I will ever get any of this stuff sorted out. Purely as a side note,I am a bit curious about whether have I any prayer of figuring this stuff out given that I am American and a relative newcomer to ITM, so that's why I mentioned issue #1 in my post.
But I am much more interested in the question that has nothing to do with me personally -- is there content to the concepts of "ITM session", "traditional style", etc.
Any "definition" or "consensus" around these concepts is OF COURSE going to be a shades-of-gray nuanced Wittgensteinian (or Lakoffian) construct with lots of qualifications, caveats, exceptions, and even glorious inconsistencies. So as I think you were pointing out earlier, such a hazy "definition" may appear to border on meaninglessness or uselessness. But I would argue that these hazy definitions are far from meaningless or useless - - they are the essence of what it means to grok and appreciate the tradition(s?) with all of the associated richness and variety therein.
The extreme to which my sparring partner seems to want to go amounts to sheer nihilism. Saying that anything and everything that anyone feels should be included within the realm of iTM is automatically legitimately within that realm is decimating the idea of a tradition at all.
So I guess that at some level, this guy's views bother me because they seem logically untenable. It bothers me the same way that somebody who believes the earth is flat would bother me. Something in me just keeps saying "Do you honestly believe this? Really? REALLY?" (Some might say that this reactions is rooted in intellectual integrity. Some would say that I am prone to overanalysizing. Whatever.)
So I was in this sort of bewildered state about the whole thing, and I was hoping that the collective of wisdom of the mustard board would shed some light on the issue. And Will, it kind of seems like you are taking the side of the flat-earthers just because earth isn't a perfect sphere.
Anyhow...I said the thread should die and now I am flogging it some more...
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
"Some would say that I am prone to overanalysizing."
no sh*#
; )
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Wyogal
Re: What's a session?
I don't see how that guy's notion of sessions that are amorphous is like being a flat-earther. His view has a lot of merit, actually.
Isn't it possible that in your 5 years with this music you have a fairly limited experience of all the sorts of "Irish sessions" that exist in the world? Compared at least to someone with 3 or 4 or 5 decades in the music?
Sure, I think the guy was just winding you up anyway.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Poor crazy fingers! [Bill Clinton voice] "I feel your pain."
There is content, of course, though it's flexible (I'd be burnt at the stake if there was a real Trad Police for some of the things I'd let go on in good fun, I'm sure) and a reel is a reel and a polka is a polka, sure, and any dancer will tell you they want them a certain speed.
...and like Will says, I think the guy was yanking yer chain a bit too.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What's a session?
Will asks: Isn't it possible that in your 5 years with this music you have a fairly limited experience of all the sorts of "Irish sessions" that exist in the world? Compared at least to someone with 3 or 4 or 5 decades in the music?
Indeed. That's why I am asking for input from this website. I am not claiming to know much of anything. Quite the opposite.
All that I claim to "know" is that there is indeed some substantial content to the tradition beyond "anything goes". I don't claim to know what that content is. Indeed, and this is why I repeatedly and emphatically pointed out that I don't claim to have the answers about what is or is not a session, a proper rendering of a reel, etc.
So you can keep beating me up for making naive and grandiose claims but that doesn't mean I am actually making them.
I wish I could write this off as chain yanking but I have a long enough history this with gent to know that he is totally committed to these views.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
Well, you're asking and then not accepting the responses.
From your OP, I have to say that I agree with his point that nobody has the right to pass judgment on the proper way to play a reel. But that's far from "anything goes." You've taken a specific point about playing one sort of tune and extrapolated it into anything goes. That sounds naive and grandiose to me.
c_f, in all good humor and good faith, I'd respectfully suggest (based on my own 30 years playing this music) that you keep your ears and eyes open for another decade or so and then see if you don't look back and realize that you had some preconceptions about this music that turn out to be unfounded. I can certainly say this has been true for me, and I no doubt still have plenty to learn (and unlearn).
Reminds me of that old Mark Twain joke. "When I was 16, I couldn't understand how anyone as dumb as my old man could survive in the world. Then when I was 28, I was astonished how much the old man had learned!"
Maybe your old man in this case isn't as off-the-mark as you believe.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Some examples of interesting things I've seen included and welcomed (by brilliant players well steeped in the tradition) at traditional Irish sessions:
Highland Bagpipes
Johnny Cash songs (lots of them, in a row)
electric bass
a man in a blouse and skirt (very good fiddler, knew all the tunes, too)
cymbals
a hookah
a 45-minute set of movie soundtrack music (none of it Irish)
Balkan, Swedish, and Israeli folk tunes
Lebanese folk songs
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
That's quite a list,Will ... and to which I can add: traditional Chinese fiddle and a very loud but mesmeric traditional Chinese opera singer.Both at the same session in a Manchester(UK) pub.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by biggus dave
Re: What's a session?
Can I add to the list, too, Will? A brilliant rendition of Satisfaction sung by a man from The Netherlands who was utterly and completely p i ss ed. This was at a small pub in Carrick, Donegal several years ago. It was the highlight of the session that night.
My 2 cents about this question is: the "content" of a traditional session depends on a lot of things. Like who is there, where it is, what time it is, is there drink involved, how long people have been playing their instruments, how long they have been playing together, etc, etc.... It's situational. You can go with it and often have a lot of fun. Or you can find (or start) something else that gives you more pleasure.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by John Culhane
Re: What's a session?
I've seen Alasdair Fraser play a shakey egg.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
Let me interject here one point of fact: the fellow from Clare was not jesting or joking or jiving or in any way undertaking a windup. I know this guy, and he's dead serious on this. His position is, and I'm paraphrasing here, that no individual can legitimately say that any one way of playing a tune is not "traditional" or "Irish". I promise you, he believes and preaches and lives this gospel. And when CF says he believes it's a matter of "anything goes", he's not exaggerating, he's reporting the straight dope.
Now we can talk about what "session" "means", and I still think there's something to say about that, but for the moment, I'll leave it at that: yer man from Clare is dead set on holding down the absolutist "anything goes" posiiton.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What's a session?
See, that doesn't surprise me, because all is a session really is is friends and neighbors getting together for crack over music and pints. And the Irish themselves, as a culture, have been borrowing from other cultures forever. Which is why you have polkas, mazurkas, hornpipes, etc. in this tradition to begin with (not to mention all those Scottish reels). These influences occurred because people were open to them, not beholden to some narrow sense of the "content of the tradition."
Read the Northern FIddler--those old kitchen sessions included show tunes from the Continent, recitations, jokes, whatever. People who think that sessions are (or should be) limited just to twee Irishness are missing the point altogether
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
And not just music from other cultures, but instruments too--the fiddle, flute, then a fair flood of "foreign" banjos, pianos, accordions, concertinas, and bouzoukis. Those are dramatic departures from the "content" of the tradition.
The concept of an "Irish session" just isn't as static and well-defined and "conventional" as c_f appears to think it is.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Had a guy play a beer can at a session once in Sutherland. He was really quite good, the massed drummers got a little precious though...."thats disgraceful, he has no respect etc......", the beer can man was better than the rest put together, knew most if not all the tunes, on the beer can lol and when we asked him to sit down the looks we got would tarnish metal. The guy declined though, as he was just out for a drink with his pals, nice guy and what a good sound he managed to get from a flattened beer can played with his unquestionably tough fingers. Cracking tune if I remember correctly......... another three days in the open neck shirt.....................
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What's a session?
コップを演奏して、音楽の楽しさを伝えたい
hatao plays the pint glass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHCsbnREDIc
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
A session is a group of friends and neighbors getting together for some musical fun over a few pints. But that's exactly why someone with different ideas as to what a session should be can ruin it, because their idea of fun might be different than yours.
So if this is an ongoing theme at that session, maybe you won't want to frequent that session. I'm not one to tell people what they can and can't do at their session. But there are a lot of sessions I won't go to because I don't like the music, or how they're run. But I also try to encourage people not to do things that I don't like at the sessions that I am involved in organizing... Now if this is a long-running session with no real organization, or session "anchors", who try to guide the session down a particular path, then your only recourse is to not go to that session, I guess.
And I agree with Will, there's potentially a lot to be learned from someone who has been playing the music for significantly longer than you have. So it's good to have an open mind.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Reverend
Re: What's a session?
"But that's exactly why someone with different ideas as to what a session should be can ruin it...."
Precisely my point. People have all sorts of various ideas of what's fun and what a session should be. And that can change from one week to the next, or even over the span of a single night at the same session. Enough so that any preconceived "content" may become meaningless.
For example, we've had nights where the regulars show up expecting to play jigs and reels all night. Only to find a group of old timey fiddlers (from out of town) at the bar, eager to join in. Some of us regulars had a great time plowing through Appalachian tunes, sprinkled with Irish stuff now and then. But a few regulars went home grumpy because they didn't get to play their own stuff all night. My response (when they later complained) was that we made a bunch of new friends that night, played a lot of good music, and it's not likely to happen that particular way again for months or a year or more, so get over it.
What I've noticed over the years is that the people who are most bothered by a departure from the "norm" (whatever that might be for a given session) tend to be the weaker players who can't readily adapt to something new or unfamiliar or "unconventional."
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Will, maybe the pure drop curmudgeons know what they want.
Everyone has different experiences with sessions. We get it already!
crazy_fingerz,, you do seem to be a wee bit naive. Still, I appreciate your vision of what you want in your session.
Will is correct about the diversity of sessions & the flexibility of good musicians. They are ephemeral experiences & one does not always know what to expect. Having said that, I think you deserve some credit.
You obviously enjoy your session. This one guy, who seems to share some of Will's philosophy, is driving you crazy. Fifty years worth of sessioning& all he has to do is look you right in eye & say, " Mr. Fingerz, I was once your age & I too was in search of the essence of Irish music. I spent many a session hoping this would be the one. Finally I surrendered the ideals of my youth. Now I play for the craic. Anything goes! Fair play to you. But, no one can ever tell you what is a session."
It would be grand to hear those words come off his lips. Don't hold your breath.
Cheers!
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
[It's amusing to see how often people rail on others here about voicing their thoughts, since that's really all any of us can do on this site.....]
Erm, Aubby, that's not *my* "philosophy." Just how sessions are. And if I met c_f's session mate, I'm not at all sure that we'd get along musically. I'm juts saying that I can see his point of view and why he sees holes in c_f's side of the debate.
If I were at the session described in the original post, I'd be the one playing tunes and swilling pints while these two guys were arguing.....
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Sorry Will. No offense intended.
Cheers!
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
None taken..., just wanted to be clear.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Just to clarify...
I am not advocating any sort of idea of what a session or isn't.
I am not putting forward some vision for how I want "my session" to be.
I am not prescribing or proscribing any sort of musical activity by anyone anywhere at any time.
Thanks to all of you who actually payed attention to my words and responded to them rather than attacking a misconstrued version of my position.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
LOL
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
From c_f's OP: "Seems that he does not approve of me passing judgment on things like whether or not a reel is played properly, or whether or not a particular musical outing in the music is "really" an Irish trad session or not."
Even with your "shades of grey," this sounds like you're well into prescribing and proscribing how to play reels "properly" and whether a musical outing is really an Irish trad session or not.
I've stuck to your own words, c_f,--"content" and "consensus." You've either retracted them or simply ignored the points I made. And implied that I'm being unreasonable simply because I don't agree with you.
Yes, I can understand why yet man took you to task.....
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
"yer"
(must stop typing without my glasses on)
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
To put it bluntly--yes, human existence (including perceptions of what session are or should be) is indeed a great big hairball of subjectivity.
).
How can it be otherwise? Before school shootings became all the rage, every Psych 101 class used to do the eyewitness experiment: in mid lecture, someone walks in and murders the teacher and flees. Shock and horror. Then the teach stands back up and asks the class to describe the assailant. You'll get as many descriptions as there are students in the class. Sessions work the same way (tho usually murdering the music
Camus said it famously--we believe what we want to believe. He called t the philosophy of preference. You called it a hairball of subjectivity. Same thing.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
And more to the point, there is nothing wrong with playing a reel as a slow air. It's done all the time. Whether yer man's tempo was "uneven" or not I can't say, not having been there. It's possible that his rhythm was spot on but his *timing* was far different than what you're accustomed to hearing and so you perceived it as uneven. Regardless, for you to suggest that he wasn't playing the tune properly is the height of naivete and ignorance of this music. He was playing the tune as he heard it in his head. Fair play.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
You are wrong Will. But you are dug in so you ain't going to be moved.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
You are wrong _about me_ is what I meant to say. There is lots of good stuff in what you are saying, it's just that you are wrong about my agenda.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
So I just reread my OP. I see that wrote this:
'Seems that he does not approve of me passing judgment on things like whether or not a reel is played properly, or whether or not a particular musical outing in the music is "really" an Irish trad session or not.'
What I wrote was very misleading. I should make it clear: I was not _actually_ spouting off judgments about these things. The questions being argued were: do I, or does anyone, _in principle_ have a right to make such judgments. To me the issue hinges on whether there is any basis, beyond pure personal opinion, for deciding what is a typical way to play a reel, or what are typical characteristics of an Irish session, etc.
I can see why my OP could imply that I was sitting there spouting off opinions about the "one true way" and this guy rightly took me down a notch. And in his mind, this probably is what happened....but really, it's not what was going on.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by timmy!
Re: What's a session?
It's time to come clean about your agenda cf. Honestly, is it not your intent to control ITM sessions world-wide? Both what is played and how it is played? Your plan is to start at your local session and then systematically spread your destructive tentacles... I think Will fears that he's next. There's got to be a reason why they call you "crazy fingerz!"
Watch out Will, you and your session are under threat!
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by leoj
" I am a bit curious about whether have I any prayer of figuring this stuff out given that I am American and a relative newcomer to ITM " crazy_fingerz
At this point in the discussion I doubt anyone has figured this stuff out. Michael Gill has stated the tunes are not puzzles.
Will Harmon has said ITM is not rocket surgery. In other words don't beat yourself up over your love of Irish music.
Make the most of listening & playing at your local session. Seek out other sessions as well.
Very likely they will all contribute to your understanding of what is a session.
" . . given that I am American " . . . this is where immersion is important.
Immerse yourself in traditional music anyway you are able. Experience helps.
" & a relative newcomer to ITM . . ." { unless you decide otherwise } you never stop learning.
Fair play for talking with your man from Clare.
Once you're done; grab your instrument so you don't miss any more tunes.
;)
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
*
I just started reading some of the other discussions.
The following comment seems to address part of your question.
Nothing Michael hasn't said before, though, I felt it was a bit timely.
Priceless mustard from someone who does not play rubbish.
Re: Too Fast, No Heart May 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21648/comments#comment450191
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a session?
c_f, I'm glad to hear that what you wrote in your OP is misleading.
Ummm, next time, say what you mean, okay dude?
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
LOL leoj, my local sesh is safe--we're too deep in the middle of nowhere for anyone to make the 7 month trek to come bother us.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
Funny, I don't recall ever saying or implying that c_f had an agenda, or even thinking such a thing. I've been coming at this more from the angle that c_f is simply relatively inexperience when it comes to the range and diversity of what sessions are. And all I've said is that it's pointless to try to pigeon hole what a session (or a reel) "should" be.
Something I've posted repeatedly on this site is the notion that sessions are more fun and fulfilling when people come to them with open minds instead of a head full of expectations of how the night will turn out. Newbies to this are often disappointed if their favorite tunes don't get played, or if their tunes are played but not in the sets they "usually" do them in. And they're disappointed if the tunes are too fast or too slow or in the "wrong" key, etc., ad nauseum.
Better, I think, to let the session be what it will be that night, and roll with the flow. If it consistently leaves you feeling somehow unhappy or disappointed, go elsewhere. Or start your own, with explicit expectations(no matter how broad) of what it will be. And then have fun enforcing compliance.
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What's a session?
leoj -- You have exposed my sinister plot!
# Posted on May 23rd 2009 by timmy!