'learning' is a concept I am always intrigued with. Since I have been climbing the learning curve on the box, I have realized that getting a tune repertoire going is half the battle. I am in awe of the older players who are virtual encyclopedias (encyclopediae?) of tunes.
In another post someone mentioned the skill of 'learning how to learn tunes'.
I learn tunes one at a time (though sometimes 3 or 4 tunes in one sitting). Over the years, you accumulate a lot of tunes.
The more tunes you learn, the easier it becomes to learn others because you'll recognize familiar or similar bits and phrases, and you'll develop the skills needed on your given instrument to readily play those bits and phrases.
So in the beginning, people tend to learn tunes note by note. Later they learn chunk by chunk, then whole phrase by whole phrase. Some simpler tunes can even be learned whole by experienced players.
Incidentally, you can also hear how experienced a musician is by listening to how they *play* the tunes. Note by note reveals a beginner, chunks of a few beats at a time is likely an intermediate player, and phrase by phrase comes out of a player with more experience.
If I had to boil it down, I'd say:
1. Learn to learn tunes phrase by phrase.
2. Learn the tunes that are played by your session mates.
3. Learn tunes that catch your ear.
4. Play them all *a lot* (and daily) so you retain them and can launch into them at will.
The players who know hundreds or thousands of tunes spend a corresponding number of hours each year playing the music. You can't accumulate a huge number of tunes unless you're obsessed.
For the last three years or so I've been going regularly to a weekly English session (which also has some Irish, Scottish and French played). I think I can fairly say that I now play virtually everything that is played in that session but it has been by listening and absorbing the tunes; I haven't specifically searched out tunes to learn from the dots. Weekly repetition has obviously been the key factor. A consequence of this approach is that I'm still not familiar with the names of most of the tunes
I went through the phases to phrases Will mentions. But now I hardly ever make the effort to learn new tunes. Maybe one or so a month. I'll listen to a recording 10 or 20 times a day for a week, then pic up the fiddle and I'll have it.
But I do learn tunes without making any effort in the pub. I've no idea how long this takes except to say that it varies from possibly anything between two or three times through to a number of years. I never push it. I prefer the ones I learn in the pub, there's something more natural about it.
I'd never learn a tune off a recording if it gets a regular playing in the pub, I want the version that gets played. The tunes I learn from recordings now are so that I can introduce them to my mates. Mostly they get picked up, sometimes not.
I have also spent time practicing my listening skills. When I was commuting in my car about 90 minutes a day, I would put the mp3 player on. With somewhere around 5000 tracks of Irish, it was constantly playing tunes that I wasn't familiar with.
I would consciously work on listening to a tune the first time through, and then trying to lilt along with it the second time through. From there, I could tell the parts that I had wrong, and then try to get them by the third time through. I'm not fully at the point where I can play something on my instrument if I have it in my head, but I'm partway there. If I have a tune pretty well cemented in my head, I can almost play it, and with a few minutes of work, I can usually get the bones of it on the instrument - especially if it has common elements, as Will mentions.
After doing that for a while, I also started trying to lilt along with a tune even if I had never heard it before. You'd be surprised at how well you can do with that after a while, because many (not all) Irish tunes tend to fit within a certain framework, and you can get good at anticipating that. That fits in with the similar chunks that Will talked about. (And I've noticed that the tunes I find real interesting these days are the ones that have twists and turns that are unexpected)
So there are now times when I play a tune in a session, and then realize that I've never really formally learned it. I still try to keep a list of those tunes, so that I can spend a few minutes with it in a more formal environment to work out the bits that I might be fluffing over.
But practicing my listening skills really helped me along in the process. And the more I do it, the better I get at it. To the point where the number of tunes I know is rather fuzzy. I still keep a list of everything that I've officially "learned", by sitting down and working on them. But an increasing amount of stuff I play in sessions isn't on that list.
if i'm honest, it's almost beyond me but i suppose an outsider would say pratice, time and patience, with a musical ear and memory recall ( _ cold, cold, cold)
but the best (and fail safe) answer i'd say is to develope a 'passion' for the music and it will then express itself through you and if you are caring enough to let this happen, you will not have to worry about a learning 'concept'
also, don't worry about having a big repertoire as more is as more (so?) but 'less is more', played devinely, more than anything
it's in the bones of those who know, a veritable force _ may it be with you
With regards to building a large repertoire, it's better to play a few tunes well than a lot of tunes poorly, for sure. But it's also the very act of learning tunes that makes you better at learning tunes. So while you shouldn't force it to a rate of learning that you can't sustain, learning lots of tunes is good, and you'll find that it is a bit of a snowball effect after a while, because the more tunes you learn, the easier you learn them...
And it's also not a bad idea to go back to tunes that you learned a long time ago, and see if you still play them the way you learned them, or whether they could use some attention, now that you're better than you were back then...
if there's a tune I want to learn I find a CD track of it and stick it in the car cd player on repeat for a week or two. my theory is that this saturates my remaining brain cells with the tune and I will have no trouble remembering it
like you, my principal instrument is box, for this reason I try to find recordings of the tune on non-box instruments so that the phrasing that I absorb isn't tainted by melodeonisaton
"go back to tunes that you learned a long time ago, and see if you still play them the way you learned them."
I think this brings up the important esoteric argument about what it is to really learn a tune. When I take a tune off a record, I'm really learning how the person on the record plays it. Or more accurately, merely how they played it on the record. That's not necessarily a bad thing initially, especially if it's a tune written by the recording artist (most of mine over the last year or so have been Liz Carroll tunes). Then when you introduce the tune to your mates, it goes through a process of being adopted by the group and it will gain a different spin (same notes of course, that's important).
I like to think I will never get to a stage where I really have a tune nailed. The best ones are bottomless pits of potential creativity.
I have used most of the theories mentioned above and work well. But sometimes when I start to "flub" it all up, I get a mental picture of the dipstick guy.
That's a useful thing that's been posted.I would now be easily learning and making my own tunes.Thanks so much
Eliza
[url=http://www.fastrealestate.net]fsbo[/url]
That's a useful thing that's been posted.I would now be easily learning and making my own tunes.Thanks so much
Eliza
<a href="http://www.fastrealestate.net">fsbo</a>;
The only thing that I could add to this is my constant refrain: fifteen minutes a day beats the hell out of two hours on Saturday.
Even more than that, fifteen minutes of focus and attention every day will get you further - I think - than two hours every day.
If you can come up with a way to spend 15-30 minutes - no more! - really learning the tunes, every day, you'll be doing pretty well. If you put it off to the weekend, no matter how much time you spend on a Saturday you'll still be about the same place six months from now.
The other half of that, the focus and attention, is the hard part. You have to figure out some way to make that fifteen minutes count, which means planning ahead, knowing what you're going to be working on, and resisting the urge to wander off to tunes you already know.
If your motivation is to acquire a repertoire, then Jon Kiparsky's advice is probably very good. But if you take the more abstract esoteric view that takes into account the reality that you can never really know a tune, then "resisting the urge to wander off to tunes you already know" becomes meaningless. It's all just diddling around really. Diddling around with passion.
Yes, Lisaniska has the best thing to say on this subject.
I think this thread has been more useful and honest than many here for a while! I find listening to CDs gives you a great 'take' of the player 's interpretation of the tune but as Llig says youv'e got to learn the version they play at your local session.I find it difficult to concentrate and focus on the bits of the tune I haven't quite mastered and end up drifting off into other tunes within my comfort zone. But if I follow Jon's advice above it works! I suppose it's self discipline. I also agree the more you listen to tunes the easier it gets to remember them. I always remember the tunes I've learned by ear better than from the dots---just an observation guys!!.
the thing about learning tunes is that the first one is the hardest to learn, the next one comes a bit easier, and then after a long time of learning tunes, you just pick them up
its alot like learning to read. At first you go real slow and sound out all the words, then you start reading whole words, then finally you're speed reading Tolstoy or something
John advice about focused practice every single day come hail or shine is the key IMO. The other is start with simpler tunes, airs, and memorise the the in your head, once you can hum the tune, and remember the starting phrase its your. Of course thats just the begining of a life long intimacy with the tune.
Recently I've been steaming through tunes. From the dots, I simply find a link or 5 to the tune, listen to it a lot use the dots as a framework and reminder of how it goes and they are piling up Which I am delighted about.
Yes, but I would disagree about airs. They might be slow but they are harder than dance tunes to play well.
After about four and a half years I am just starting to find tune-learning to become effortless. So don't give up -- keep listening and working at it. It will happen. I know it is a kind of contentious issue here but if you do not have access to teachers who will play tunes slowly for learning purposes, slow down software is tremendously helpful. If you are using it, I would recommend speeding tunes up as you get better at hearing them so you don't train yourself to become reliant on the tune being slowed down. Set the speed as fast, maybe just slightly faster, as you can manage to learn the tune, and as your listening skills progress, push it faster and faster so it approaches full session speed. That's my theory anyway.
I used to do this thing where I'd fanatically learn tunes weekly, sometimes two or more a week.
After a while, I stopped forcing it, and now they stick to me organically from hearing them, mostly from other folks at session playing them. Eventually they just stick. Seems much more organic than forcing them, though forcing and hitting the books like I did was great as it allowed me to build up a repertoire.
Our session has reached a dynamic where others are ‘organically’ learning the tunes I play that they don’t know, and I’m learning the ones others know that I don’t, and every musician there is doing the same. Often folks will bring a new (to us) tune in and sometimes it sticks, sometimes it doesn’t.
I guess I’ve got to the point where I polish the existing tunes and am adding the ones I don’t know, that my fellow musicians do play, organically, just from hearing them over and over. Happened this past Sunday with The Annascaul. Never set out to learn it, never even tried it on my own, just heard it over and over at session and half way through I realized that I was playing it, note for note.
To me, that’s much more satisfying than having a tune which I’ve pounded into my brain all by myself. I associate the tune with a friend and learned it from playing with the friend week in, week out. Organic. “Surprise, you know this tune.”
So learning how to learn tunes? There's so many ways, but the most satisfying to me is the one I've explained above, just from playing the music constantly and becoming versed in it, so that you can pick up tunes on the fly from other musicians while they play them.
Good post, SWFL. I had a great moment at a session the other night where our fiddle player (from Boston) played her Boston (I think) tunes that she plays frequently but no one else really knows them. This time I played along with a couple of them and after the set she was like, "Oh, awesome, you learned those." I answered, "Well, I didn't sit down and learn them note for note but if you keep playing them, it gets to be like throwing tennis balls at a velcro wall... they eventually stick."
I did not have the ability to check this yesterday and really appreciate the thoughts.
I think Silver Spear mentioned hes been on his learning curve for 4 1/2 years and the learning becomes effortless.
This question was my 2 1/2 year 'idiot check' of my own approach. Starting into Session work, is humbling....you find out quickly how little you know and where your technique is off. I am just at the point where My I am playing with my teacher and I am the one who can point out where my flubs in the tune are rather than him correcting me. A start.
Now, when I learn a tune, I am have a bit better idea from listening which tunes get strung together....Which means to learn one, I want to learn two or three at the same time.
I love that 'tennis balls... velcro wall' analogy. ITs better than the one I heard about '....like fish needing bicycles'
Thats grand for those who have access to a regular session. But there are many who dont for whatever reason. That need not be a problem. With a broad enough source of listening material and broad enough source of dots then it is simple enough to build up a repertoire.
I know what you mean SS, but some airs can be easily assimilated into the mind as long as they are listened to enough. I include simple slow marches like the Boys of Belfast or the chanter song., for example.
It all really boils down to how much time you dedicate to the various aspects of music. Tune learning, actual playing, technical practice etc. and of course how much time you CAN dedicate.
I personally have always separated these different aspects for focusing upon. So there will be times like now where i am picking up 2 or 3 tunes a day, others where I dont learn new tunes for months on end and am concentrating on playing ones I know. Other times I wont play tunes or learn them at all for weeks but instead concentrate on technical issues.
Then there will be times when I am sessioning a lot and so the focus is on listening and picking up tunes on the fly and just 'playing in groups.
2.5 years into it I still had to work pretty hard at it. Some tunes I couldn't figure out at all. I remember trying to learn Jenny's Welcome to Charlie at that time and was utterly flummoxed by it. Last month I had another go at it and picked it up, no problems at all.
If you have the passion for it and put the time into it, it will work out for you. No immediate gratification with this music.
Sorry Ms. SS. The internet tends to hide gender differences. I should have realized since a young flautist freind, a young lady, also seems to have a soft spot for the Silver Spear!
Herself always questions my intuition, or lack thereof!
Right now I was picking up Jimmy Wards...not too tough, and string it onto Blarney Pilgrim which I was tolds is pretty traditional, then I hear a Comhaltas CD that stuck Cook in the Kitchen on the end of the group.
Cook in the Kitchen is a bit more challenging. So it seemed to do my check since having heard these three, I have heard a couple of other sets I want to go after...Notably the Tarbolten set which I dod some reserach on here a couple of weeks ago.
That one is much more of a challenge.
No immediate gratification seems to be the story of my life....so one has to take the approach that the gratification comes from appreciating the challenge of the journey.
one other thing....Ilig. I didn't think Liz Carroll was your style?! Herself seems less than inclined towards her work.
Forgot. On Cook etc. It seems everyone has a different spin on it. Amazing comparing O'Neills to several other print sources as well as the recordings out there.
That is where it is handy having access to regular sessions: I play the version of the Cook in the Kitchen my session plays and would have learned it from those guys.
My thought: don't limit yourself to learning tunes in sets. ;) If you have some flexibility on this, you can throw tunes together randomly. This makes things exciting, especially when you don't even know what you are going to play next. If I do learn tunes in a set I make sure those tunes can divorce each other and get together with other tunes for a fling. I don't have any monogamous tunes.
I'm less inclined to introduce old tunes to my mates. It's very very rare these days for me to hear an old tune non of us have come accross before that we think is distinctive enough to bother with. Lizz Carroll, on the other hand, writes consistently distinctive tunes. (That's not to say, of course, that the lion's share of our tunes are not old ones.)
re: polyamorous tunes - I agee, Not only should you not limit yourself to learning tunes in sets, you should (in my opinion) avoid playing a tune in a set until you know it pretty well, and then you should move it around as much as possible. That'll teach you some things about the tune, and also keep you from sticking it into a fixed position, like the Wise Maid vis a vis the Cup of Tea.
on sets, there are two or three sets of tunes that I seem to churn out regularly these days. But they only became sets in the last 6-9months as I gradually realised waht tunes other folk were likely going to want for their own started sets, and what tunes nobody picked up on at all.
The ones that were left appear top have become sets by deafult. Cos I like em. No-one else ever starts them, And they didn't completely lead-balloon.
I don't think I have any sets that i've played together for years unless they are from a sharec ceili or comhaltas repertoire
I admit, I have played sets I got from a recording. I am especially fond of that Bothy Band "jig and five reels" set and will play it if feeling adventurous. However, I can separate all those tunes and play them with other tunes if I want.
without reading all post (so apologies if i repeat somthing) for me what accelerated learning the tunes was firstly..seperatly practicing ornamentation from tunes..Playing new tunes note by note slowly with limited embelishments sticatto almost..This is the approach taken by the legendary Mc Peake clan's way of teaching and just lookat at some of the musicians they have produced..also make sure your source isnt second rate. Learn from the best. Easiest way to do this is from a C.D.. for me this means, getting hold of a software programme that slows down the tunes whilst remaining in pitch. getting hold of notes..Recording using a device which then converts into MP3 format from audio output from speakers..plug it in , slow it down and copy what you hear..This also tunes you ear and soon you dont even need the notes..This was the main thing that accelerated my playing..Eventually u can accompany the C.D, this in itself is perfect practice and a great confidence boost..good luck
Basically I learn tunes by playing what I hear. I taught myself to do that by attending American old time jams for the past year and a half or so. It really helped me because the music is less "notey" and very predictable. Before this it was very hard for me to play by ear.
I prefer to learn by hearing the whole tune over and over. I'll fill in the hard parts eventually but be able to get most of it pretty quickly. Then if it's in my head, I'll "practice" the tune in my head as I work or take a walk. Make up little variations and stuff, too.
One thing I've been doing the last few days is writing down a list of all the tunes I have learned. I will often forget what I know. On those tunes I forget easily, I'm including a couple of opening ABCs just to refresh my memory.
Having the list will help me not only remember the NAMES of the tunes but also help me find a tune to play at the session whenever someone demands a tune from me and my mind goes blank.
First time at this, and not a lot of whistle playing behind me, but I ned to know some more about sets. Do the tunes have to be in the same rhythm, e.g. jigs go with jigs, polkas with polkas, or can you put anything together as long as it works, or would the traditionalists bash you one with the banjo?
i.e. what are the basic "rules"?
Learning how to learn tunes
Learning how to learn tunes
'learning' is a concept I am always intrigued with. Since I have been climbing the learning curve on the box, I have realized that getting a tune repertoire going is half the battle. I am in awe of the older players who are virtual encyclopedias (encyclopediae?) of tunes.
In another post someone mentioned the skill of 'learning how to learn tunes'.
How does everyone do it?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
it depends if you mean learning tunes from another player, or learning tunes from a recording or CD...
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by keelin
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I learn tunes one at a time (though sometimes 3 or 4 tunes in one sitting). Over the years, you accumulate a lot of tunes.
The more tunes you learn, the easier it becomes to learn others because you'll recognize familiar or similar bits and phrases, and you'll develop the skills needed on your given instrument to readily play those bits and phrases.
So in the beginning, people tend to learn tunes note by note. Later they learn chunk by chunk, then whole phrase by whole phrase. Some simpler tunes can even be learned whole by experienced players.
Incidentally, you can also hear how experienced a musician is by listening to how they *play* the tunes. Note by note reveals a beginner, chunks of a few beats at a time is likely an intermediate player, and phrase by phrase comes out of a player with more experience.
If I had to boil it down, I'd say:
1. Learn to learn tunes phrase by phrase.
2. Learn the tunes that are played by your session mates.
3. Learn tunes that catch your ear.
4. Play them all *a lot* (and daily) so you retain them and can launch into them at will.
The players who know hundreds or thousands of tunes spend a corresponding number of hours each year playing the music. You can't accumulate a huge number of tunes unless you're obsessed.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Er, obviously everything I posted above hinges on listening, listening, listening, and getting the tunes in your head.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
For the last three years or so I've been going regularly to a weekly English session (which also has some Irish, Scottish and French played). I think I can fairly say that I now play virtually everything that is played in that session but it has been by listening and absorbing the tunes; I haven't specifically searched out tunes to learn from the dots. Weekly repetition has obviously been the key factor. A consequence of this approach is that I'm still not familiar with the names of most of the tunes
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Well said Will, all you said above makes good sense and good advice.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by kk cats
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I went through the phases to phrases Will mentions. But now I hardly ever make the effort to learn new tunes. Maybe one or so a month. I'll listen to a recording 10 or 20 times a day for a week, then pic up the fiddle and I'll have it.
But I do learn tunes without making any effort in the pub. I've no idea how long this takes except to say that it varies from possibly anything between two or three times through to a number of years. I never push it. I prefer the ones I learn in the pub, there's something more natural about it.
I'd never learn a tune off a recording if it gets a regular playing in the pub, I want the version that gets played. The tunes I learn from recordings now are so that I can introduce them to my mates. Mostly they get picked up, sometimes not.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by ...
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I have also spent time practicing my listening skills. When I was commuting in my car about 90 minutes a day, I would put the mp3 player on. With somewhere around 5000 tracks of Irish, it was constantly playing tunes that I wasn't familiar with.
I would consciously work on listening to a tune the first time through, and then trying to lilt along with it the second time through. From there, I could tell the parts that I had wrong, and then try to get them by the third time through. I'm not fully at the point where I can play something on my instrument if I have it in my head, but I'm partway there. If I have a tune pretty well cemented in my head, I can almost play it, and with a few minutes of work, I can usually get the bones of it on the instrument - especially if it has common elements, as Will mentions.
After doing that for a while, I also started trying to lilt along with a tune even if I had never heard it before. You'd be surprised at how well you can do with that after a while, because many (not all) Irish tunes tend to fit within a certain framework, and you can get good at anticipating that. That fits in with the similar chunks that Will talked about. (And I've noticed that the tunes I find real interesting these days are the ones that have twists and turns that are unexpected)
So there are now times when I play a tune in a session, and then realize that I've never really formally learned it. I still try to keep a list of those tunes, so that I can spend a few minutes with it in a more formal environment to work out the bits that I might be fluffing over.
But practicing my listening skills really helped me along in the process. And the more I do it, the better I get at it. To the point where the number of tunes I know is rather fuzzy. I still keep a list of everything that I've officially "learned", by sitting down and working on them. But an increasing amount of stuff I play in sessions isn't on that list.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
if i'm honest, it's almost beyond me but i suppose an outsider would say pratice, time and patience, with a musical ear and memory recall ( _ cold, cold, cold)
but the best (and fail safe) answer i'd say is to develope a 'passion' for the music and it will then express itself through you and if you are caring enough to let this happen, you will not have to worry about a learning 'concept'
also, don't worry about having a big repertoire as more is as more (so?) but 'less is more', played devinely, more than anything
it's in the bones of those who know, a veritable force _ may it be with you
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
With regards to building a large repertoire, it's better to play a few tunes well than a lot of tunes poorly, for sure. But it's also the very act of learning tunes that makes you better at learning tunes. So while you shouldn't force it to a rate of learning that you can't sustain, learning lots of tunes is good, and you'll find that it is a bit of a snowball effect after a while, because the more tunes you learn, the easier you learn them...
And it's also not a bad idea to go back to tunes that you learned a long time ago, and see if you still play them the way you learned them, or whether they could use some attention, now that you're better than you were back then...
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
hi zip
if there's a tune I want to learn I find a CD track of it and stick it in the car cd player on repeat for a week or two. my theory is that this saturates my remaining brain cells with the tune and I will have no trouble remembering it
like you, my principal instrument is box, for this reason I try to find recordings of the tune on non-box instruments so that the phrasing that I absorb isn't tainted by melodeonisaton
the other thing is that I try to
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
"go back to tunes that you learned a long time ago, and see if you still play them the way you learned them."
I think this brings up the important esoteric argument about what it is to really learn a tune. When I take a tune off a record, I'm really learning how the person on the record plays it. Or more accurately, merely how they played it on the record. That's not necessarily a bad thing initially, especially if it's a tune written by the recording artist (most of mine over the last year or so have been Liz Carroll tunes). Then when you introduce the tune to your mates, it goes through a process of being adopted by the group and it will gain a different spin (same notes of course, that's important).
I like to think I will never get to a stage where I really have a tune nailed. The best ones are bottomless pits of potential creativity.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by ...
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
remeber not to rest my wrists on this bloody mouse pad.
now I've forgotten the gem I was going to end with.
Good luck
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I have used most of the theories mentioned above and work well. But sometimes when I start to "flub" it all up, I get a mental picture of the dipstick guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5ms9PJDNY
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
That's a useful thing that's been posted.I would now be easily learning and making my own tunes
Eliza
<a href="http://www.fastrealestate.net">fsbo</a>;
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by seetumail
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
That's a useful thing that's been posted.I would now be easily learning and making my own tunes.Thanks so much
Eliza
[url=http://www.fastrealestate.net]fsbo[/url]
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by seetumail
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
That's a useful thing that's been posted.I would now be easily learning and making my own tunes.Thanks so much
Eliza
<a href="http://www.fastrealestate.net">fsbo</a>;
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by seetumail
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
The only thing that I could add to this is my constant refrain: fifteen minutes a day beats the hell out of two hours on Saturday.
Even more than that, fifteen minutes of focus and attention every day will get you further - I think - than two hours every day.
If you can come up with a way to spend 15-30 minutes - no more! - really learning the tunes, every day, you'll be doing pretty well. If you put it off to the weekend, no matter how much time you spend on a Saturday you'll still be about the same place six months from now.
The other half of that, the focus and attention, is the hard part. You have to figure out some way to make that fifteen minutes count, which means planning ahead, knowing what you're going to be working on, and resisting the urge to wander off to tunes you already know.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I really like what lisaniska said above. Well put, and spot on.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Even more than that, fifteen minutes of focus and attention every day will get you further - I think - than two hours every day.
this sentence should have ended with "...of just diddling around." But I hit the post button before reading it over, silly me.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Lisaniska - that was, like Will said, spot on, and, dare I say, poetic.....
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
If your motivation is to acquire a repertoire, then Jon Kiparsky's advice is probably very good. But if you take the more abstract esoteric view that takes into account the reality that you can never really know a tune, then "resisting the urge to wander off to tunes you already know" becomes meaningless. It's all just diddling around really. Diddling around with passion.
Yes, Lisaniska has the best thing to say on this subject.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by ...
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I think this thread has been more useful and honest than many here for a while! I find listening to CDs gives you a great 'take' of the player 's interpretation of the tune but as Llig says youv'e got to learn the version they play at your local session.I find it difficult to concentrate and focus on the bits of the tune I haven't quite mastered and end up drifting off into other tunes within my comfort zone. But if I follow Jon's advice above it works! I suppose it's self discipline. I also agree the more you listen to tunes the easier it gets to remember them. I always remember the tunes I've learned by ear better than from the dots---just an observation guys!!.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by banjoian
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
the thing about learning tunes is that the first one is the hardest to learn, the next one comes a bit easier, and then after a long time of learning tunes, you just pick them up
its alot like learning to read. At first you go real slow and sound out all the words, then you start reading whole words, then finally you're speed reading Tolstoy or something
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
John advice about focused practice every single day come hail or shine is the key IMO. The other is start with simpler tunes, airs, and memorise the the in your head, once you can hum the tune, and remember the starting phrase its your. Of course thats just the begining of a life long intimacy with the tune.
Which I am delighted about.
Recently I've been steaming through tunes. From the dots, I simply find a link or 5 to the tune, listen to it a lot use the dots as a framework and reminder of how it goes and they are piling up
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Yes, but I would disagree about airs. They might be slow but they are harder than dance tunes to play well.
After about four and a half years I am just starting to find tune-learning to become effortless. So don't give up -- keep listening and working at it. It will happen. I know it is a kind of contentious issue here but if you do not have access to teachers who will play tunes slowly for learning purposes, slow down software is tremendously helpful. If you are using it, I would recommend speeding tunes up as you get better at hearing them so you don't train yourself to become reliant on the tune being slowed down. Set the speed as fast, maybe just slightly faster, as you can manage to learn the tune, and as your listening skills progress, push it faster and faster so it approaches full session speed. That's my theory anyway.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I used to do this thing where I'd fanatically learn tunes weekly, sometimes two or more a week.
After a while, I stopped forcing it, and now they stick to me organically from hearing them, mostly from other folks at session playing them. Eventually they just stick. Seems much more organic than forcing them, though forcing and hitting the books like I did was great as it allowed me to build up a repertoire.
Our session has reached a dynamic where others are ‘organically’ learning the tunes I play that they don’t know, and I’m learning the ones others know that I don’t, and every musician there is doing the same. Often folks will bring a new (to us) tune in and sometimes it sticks, sometimes it doesn’t.
I guess I’ve got to the point where I polish the existing tunes and am adding the ones I don’t know, that my fellow musicians do play, organically, just from hearing them over and over. Happened this past Sunday with The Annascaul. Never set out to learn it, never even tried it on my own, just heard it over and over at session and half way through I realized that I was playing it, note for note.
To me, that’s much more satisfying than having a tune which I’ve pounded into my brain all by myself. I associate the tune with a friend and learned it from playing with the friend week in, week out. Organic. “Surprise, you know this tune.”
So learning how to learn tunes? There's so many ways, but the most satisfying to me is the one I've explained above, just from playing the music constantly and becoming versed in it, so that you can pick up tunes on the fly from other musicians while they play them.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
That's how I feel
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by ...
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Good post, SWFL. I had a great moment at a session the other night where our fiddle player (from Boston) played her Boston (I think) tunes that she plays frequently but no one else really knows them. This time I played along with a couple of them and after the set she was like, "Oh, awesome, you learned those." I answered, "Well, I didn't sit down and learn them note for note but if you keep playing them, it gets to be like throwing tennis balls at a velcro wall... they eventually stick."
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Llig, I meant to say somewhere, in that run-on post I made, that you said much the same thing above!
SS - LOL @ "tennis balls at a velcro wall"! I may start using that description.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I did not have the ability to check this yesterday and really appreciate the thoughts.
I think Silver Spear mentioned hes been on his learning curve for 4 1/2 years and the learning becomes effortless.
This question was my 2 1/2 year 'idiot check' of my own approach. Starting into Session work, is humbling....you find out quickly how little you know and where your technique is off. I am just at the point where My I am playing with my teacher and I am the one who can point out where my flubs in the tune are rather than him correcting me. A start.
Now, when I learn a tune, I am have a bit better idea from listening which tunes get strung together....Which means to learn one, I want to learn two or three at the same time.
I love that 'tennis balls... velcro wall' analogy. ITs better than the one I heard about '....like fish needing bicycles'
Thanks again for the great thoughts!
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Thats grand for those who have access to a regular session. But there are many who dont for whatever reason. That need not be a problem. With a broad enough source of listening material and broad enough source of dots then it is simple enough to build up a repertoire.
I know what you mean SS, but some airs can be easily assimilated into the mind as long as they are listened to enough. I include simple slow marches like the Boys of Belfast or the chanter song., for example.
It all really boils down to how much time you dedicate to the various aspects of music. Tune learning, actual playing, technical practice etc. and of course how much time you CAN dedicate.
I personally have always separated these different aspects for focusing upon. So there will be times like now where i am picking up 2 or 3 tunes a day, others where I dont learn new tunes for months on end and am concentrating on playing ones I know. Other times I wont play tunes or learn them at all for weeks but instead concentrate on technical issues.
Then there will be times when I am sessioning a lot and so the focus is on listening and picking up tunes on the fly and just 'playing in groups.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Ms. Silver Spear. ;)
2.5 years into it I still had to work pretty hard at it. Some tunes I couldn't figure out at all. I remember trying to learn Jenny's Welcome to Charlie at that time and was utterly flummoxed by it. Last month I had another go at it and picked it up, no problems at all.
If you have the passion for it and put the time into it, it will work out for you. No immediate gratification with this music.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Sorry Ms. SS. The internet tends to hide gender differences. I should have realized since a young flautist freind, a young lady, also seems to have a soft spot for the Silver Spear!
Herself always questions my intuition, or lack thereof!
Right now I was picking up Jimmy Wards...not too tough, and string it onto Blarney Pilgrim which I was tolds is pretty traditional, then I hear a Comhaltas CD that stuck Cook in the Kitchen on the end of the group.
Cook in the Kitchen is a bit more challenging. So it seemed to do my check since having heard these three, I have heard a couple of other sets I want to go after...Notably the Tarbolten set which I dod some reserach on here a couple of weeks ago.
That one is much more of a challenge.
No immediate gratification seems to be the story of my life....so one has to take the approach that the gratification comes from appreciating the challenge of the journey.
one other thing....Ilig. I didn't think Liz Carroll was your style?! Herself seems less than inclined towards her work.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Forgot. On Cook etc. It seems everyone has a different spin on it. Amazing comparing O'Neills to several other print sources as well as the recordings out there.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
That is where it is handy having access to regular sessions: I play the version of the Cook in the Kitchen my session plays and would have learned it from those guys.
My thought: don't limit yourself to learning tunes in sets. ;) If you have some flexibility on this, you can throw tunes together randomly. This makes things exciting, especially when you don't even know what you are going to play next. If I do learn tunes in a set I make sure those tunes can divorce each other and get together with other tunes for a fling. I don't have any monogamous tunes.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I'm less inclined to introduce old tunes to my mates. It's very very rare these days for me to hear an old tune non of us have come accross before that we think is distinctive enough to bother with. Lizz Carroll, on the other hand, writes consistently distinctive tunes. (That's not to say, of course, that the lion's share of our tunes are not old ones.)
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by ...
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
re: polyamorous tunes - I agee, Not only should you not limit yourself to learning tunes in sets, you should (in my opinion) avoid playing a tune in a set until you know it pretty well, and then you should move it around as much as possible. That'll teach you some things about the tune, and also keep you from sticking it into a fixed position, like the Wise Maid vis a vis the Cup of Tea.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
on sets, there are two or three sets of tunes that I seem to churn out regularly these days. But they only became sets in the last 6-9months as I gradually realised waht tunes other folk were likely going to want for their own started sets, and what tunes nobody picked up on at all.
The ones that were left appear top have become sets by deafult. Cos I like em. No-one else ever starts them, And they didn't completely lead-balloon.
I don't think I have any sets that i've played together for years unless they are from a sharec ceili or comhaltas repertoire
- chris
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
I admit, I have played sets I got from a recording. I am especially fond of that Bothy Band "jig and five reels" set and will play it if feeling adventurous. However, I can separate all those tunes and play them with other tunes if I want.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Jon: 'plolyamorous tunes'
That just cracks me up. Naughty tunes.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Well, how else do you get the Wise Maid, Sporting Paddy, the Man of the House, and the Drunken Landlady into one set?
By the way, don't give me too much credit - the image was from the Pointy Stick, above.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
without reading all post (so apologies if i repeat somthing) for me what accelerated learning the tunes was firstly..seperatly practicing ornamentation from tunes..Playing new tunes note by note slowly with limited embelishments sticatto almost..This is the approach taken by the legendary Mc Peake clan's way of teaching and just lookat at some of the musicians they have produced..also make sure your source isnt second rate. Learn from the best. Easiest way to do this is from a C.D.. for me this means, getting hold of a software programme that slows down the tunes whilst remaining in pitch. getting hold of notes..Recording using a device which then converts into MP3 format from audio output from speakers..plug it in , slow it down and copy what you hear..This also tunes you ear and soon you dont even need the notes..This was the main thing that accelerated my playing..Eventually u can accompany the C.D, this in itself is perfect practice and a great confidence boost..good luck
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
polyamorous sets?
Does that include 'Merrily kiss the Mormon's Wife'?
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Basically I learn tunes by playing what I hear. I taught myself to do that by attending American old time jams for the past year and a half or so. It really helped me because the music is less "notey" and very predictable. Before this it was very hard for me to play by ear.
I prefer to learn by hearing the whole tune over and over. I'll fill in the hard parts eventually but be able to get most of it pretty quickly. Then if it's in my head, I'll "practice" the tune in my head as I work or take a walk. Make up little variations and stuff, too.
One thing I've been doing the last few days is writing down a list of all the tunes I have learned. I will often forget what I know. On those tunes I forget easily, I'm including a couple of opening ABCs just to refresh my memory.
Having the list will help me not only remember the NAMES of the tunes but also help me find a tune to play at the session whenever someone demands a tune from me and my mind goes blank.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by sbhikes
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
polyamorous sets?
How about "na phis fliuch?"
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by grego
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
If I have the dots plus a bodhran and jazzy guitar backing track I can learn a tune fairly quickly. Of course, YMMV.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by GDub
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Thanks for all the advice. This has been a very good thread!
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Yes - great thread; thanks for starting it!
# Posted on May 26th 2009 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
First time at this, and not a lot of whistle playing behind me, but I ned to know some more about sets. Do the tunes have to be in the same rhythm, e.g. jigs go with jigs, polkas with polkas, or can you put anything together as long as it works, or would the traditionalists bash you one with the banjo?
i.e. what are the basic "rules"?
# Posted on May 26th 2009 by flatfooter
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
The basic rule is ... learn the rules before you break them.
# Posted on May 26th 2009 by ...
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Less than useless one-liner, llig leahcim, but i guess it makes you look cool!
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by flatfooter
Re: Learning how to learn tunes
Actually, imho, I find this basic rule quite useful.
# Posted on June 21st 2009 by Ben Steen