I can play tunes at what I think is an acceptable speed but when I get out of my comfort zone and try to play faster my fingers and bowing get out of sync. I've been told to put my fingers down with more "purpose" but that doesn't seem to be working. I could be wrong but feel like it's my bowing that's out not my fingers.....hard to tell though. Whatever it is it's so frustrating.
Hi Mary, that sounds dangerous "...put...fingers down with more 'purpose'..."
It's actually easier, and healthier for your fingers and arm, if you stay relaxed with the left hand. You can move quicker if you're just touching and not pounding. Plus, your forearm tendons will thank you for it.
Lots of players have this problem for a few years while learning and some never get rid of it!
If you are in the habit of slurring too many notes you could be more inclined to this.
Matt Cranitch has an Irish Fiddle Tutor that is helpful with bowing patterns and can help your rhythmn and speed.
And on the left hand, leave fingers down until they need to move: you will actually move your fingers a little less and it can help playing in tune too.
Play an entire A part or B part with just a single bow, in other words, slurring all the notes.
Use cuts if you want to articulate some notes -- if you're playing the same note twice, for instance -- but make the playing as clear and strong as possible. This will do a lot for helping your left hand get in synch, and helping your bow and left hand work independently.
A drawn fiddle bow has no immediate, natural beat to it, at least not the way a plectrum does. With a pick, you hit the string and that's the beat. But a fiddle bow gives you an unpunctuated tone that lasts as long as the bow moves.
So most fiddlers struggle for a while to find a sense of rhythm and timing with the bow. You're not alone, and you *can* work through it.
What I recommend to my fiddle students is lots of slow playing. Take a tune that you're most familiar with and get more familiar--intimate, even--with it. Play each note with a separate bow stroke, and pay close attention to the timing of each note, both as played by your bow, and as touched by your fingers.
You want to play r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w. You want to play so slow that you have time to listen to how each note starts (do you ease into it or does it start abruptly?) the duration of each note, and how each note ends (again, do you ease out of it, or does it suddenly just stop). And you'll want to pay attention to all this in terms of what your bow hand is doing, *and* also what your left fingers are doing. Let nothing escape your attention.
Don't speed up until you hear each note sounding just the way you want it to sound. Then gradually come up to playing speed (whatever that happens to be). Watch for where you trip up and go back over that note or phrase--back at the s-l-o-w pace--until you've sussed out what the trouble is and found a way to resolve it.
Once you can do this with single bows, then work through the same tune with slurs. Don't be surprised if your sense of where to slur changes due to this whole approach. In this music, its most common to slur from a weak note onto a strong beat note. So you'll likely want to increase bow speed or a skooch of weight on the bow as you come onto the beat.
In short, the slow playing allows you to really get inside the tune, listen to all the nuances, and respond to them with your bow hand and fingering, and to focus on coordinating the two. After 30 years of this music, I'm convinced that slow playing is the key to playing well at tempo. Hope it works for you, too.
I agree with Will, lots more slow playing and paying attention to what you are doing while playing slowly will help you out
what is happening is that you are not dead sure what your muscles are supposed to be doing, so when you speed up, God only knows what will happen.
You need to be aware of how you are actually bowing the passage. You can't expect that stuff to take care of itself. It only seems to be like that for other players when they have spent the hours of practice
All single bows, keeping the bow on the string while you take the pause. Left hand action - wait for a second - play - next left hand action - wait - play - etc etc.
Regarding too much left-hand finger pressure, if you press down too hard, then there will be an opposing reaction from the thumb and this will tend to tighten the left hand (possibly one reason for the infamous "death-grip"). The fingers also cannot easily move fast and will not be sufficiently relaxed.
I know this particular paragraph may not be all that relevant for the Irish fiddler, but a tight left hand with heavy finger finger pressure makes it difficult to get those enviably smooth gliding shifts up and down the fingerboard that look so easy (which they actually are if you're sufficiently relaxed); and a relaxed controlled vibrato (again, not all that relevant here) is likewise difficult - I've seen too many people try to do a vibrato by a sort of stiff nervous "juddering" of the hand which not only doesn't look good but usually doesn't sound it either and must be tiring.
An exercise my teacher gave me to help me understand how little finger pressure on the string is required is this: take a piece of music you know well and play it right through with the fingers barely touching the strings. It will sound dreadful, nothings but squeaks and stuff, so ignore the neighbour's hammering on the party wall and the dog howling a few houses away. Repeat but very slightly increase the finger pressure until a musical tone emerges. When this happens the string will not actually be touching the fingerboard, the fingers should feel relaxed (as should the thumb) and you're getting a good tone. Pressing the finger harder until the string is right up against the fingerboard just uses up more energy, stiffens the hand, and makes fast finger action more difficult.
Another exercise my teacher has given me is for ultimate bowing control, is not at all easy and can be expected to take at least several months before you can do it anything like properly. Play an open string (the A to start with), the bow starting at the frog and playing with the whole of the bow right up to the tip as quietly and as slowly as possible. Play halfway between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge and have the hairs of the bow flat on the string at all times, and the bow parallel to the bridge at all times The eventual aim is to take 60 seconds to do this single bow stroke, with no stopping, bouncing of the bow or juddering of the stick, and a good tone that's even all the way with no squeaks etc. Remember you have to play as quietly as possible to do this. Try to be aware at a low level of everything that is happening in your right arm from the shoulder to the tips of the fingers. You'll have to achieve fine control of the pinky (4th finger) on the stick when you're near the frog and gradually release the pressure of the pinky as the bow moves over the string. Then do the same in reverse from the tip back down to the frog. This exercise requires a completely relaxed and controlled right arm and hand - any stiffness will ruin it - and a poor bow hold will immediately show. 60 seconds may seem impossible to achieve (fyi I haven't reached it yet), but aim first for 20, then 30, and so on. When you can do this exercise well you'll have a level of fine bowing control that is the basis for all types of playing, including fast playing with full sync with the fingers of the left hand.
Thanks lazyhound, My vibrato is fairly relaxed but I've been paying more attention to my right arm/hand and find I'm pretty stiff, I think that's where most of the problem is. I'm concentrating on relaxing and can see already that it will help me. As I said I can play at what I feel is an acceptable speed for reels, jigs etc. but find when I'm play with others there's always someone who wants to go faster. (that's another thread altogether) I do work on the long slow bow but by the time I get to the frog it sounds like an old man out of breath. Oh well, that's part of why I love the fiddle/violin......the challenge!
Henk, it's primarily an exercise to get the left hand and fingers relaxed, and to show that you don't need to hammer the fingers down on the strings; but it has a practical spin-off in that when you're doing very fast finger work you'll find it is far more effective if the fingers don't hammer down on the strings - the strings therefore don't necessarily need to touch the fingerboard (incidentally, the height of the strings above the fingerboard on a particular fiddle - the action - is also a factor in the equation). If you watch a good classical violinist doing a trill it looks like a fluttering of the finger on the string; and a 4th or 3rd finger cut in Irish fiddle playing is similar in that the string also doesn't touch the fingerboard and the light finger movement should be almost too fast for the eye to follow.
However, an occasion when you do need to get the string into contact with the fingerboard is if you're playing very quietly and usually relatively slowly (so it's more of a classical thing than Irish fiddle). If the string isn't in firm contact with the fingerboard under these conditions the quality of the tone will suffer - but even so, excessive finger pressure should be avoided.
A simple test to see if a finger is bearing down too hard on the string:- slide it up the string a half-tone or tone while maintaining tone. If it moves easily and smoothly then all is well. If it doesn't then you're pressing down too hard.
Fingers & bowing out of sync
Fingers & bowing out of sync
I can play tunes at what I think is an acceptable speed but when I get out of my comfort zone and try to play faster my fingers and bowing get out of sync. I've been told to put my fingers down with more "purpose" but that doesn't seem to be working. I could be wrong but feel like it's my bowing that's out not my fingers.....hard to tell though. Whatever it is it's so frustrating.
Any advice?
Thanks
Mary
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Antikhntr
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Taking too big a jump up in speed? (Though it's surprising how just a small increase in speed can make things trip up.)
Subject to that that I'd agree with your instinct, focus more on your bowing and the left hand will probably do what's necessary.
Many more fiddle probs are right hand than one tends to think IMHO.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Hi Mary, that sounds dangerous "...put...fingers down with more 'purpose'..."
It's actually easier, and healthier for your fingers and arm, if you stay relaxed with the left hand. You can move quicker if you're just touching and not pounding. Plus, your forearm tendons will thank you for it.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Lots of players have this problem for a few years while learning and some never get rid of it!
If you are in the habit of slurring too many notes you could be more inclined to this.
Matt Cranitch has an Irish Fiddle Tutor that is helpful with bowing patterns and can help your rhythmn and speed.
And on the left hand, leave fingers down until they need to move: you will actually move your fingers a little less and it can help playing in tune too.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Rob
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Try this:
Play an entire A part or B part with just a single bow, in other words, slurring all the notes.
Use cuts if you want to articulate some notes -- if you're playing the same note twice, for instance -- but make the playing as clear and strong as possible. This will do a lot for helping your left hand get in synch, and helping your bow and left hand work independently.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Jmbu
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Yes,I think that slurring would help.
You could also try dropping your fingers down faster but whilst still playing at a slow speed.
But as said above,the fingers should n't be hammered into the string.
There are other techniques to cope with co-ordination but I'm not sure how sympathetic they are with regard to playing this music.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
A drawn fiddle bow has no immediate, natural beat to it, at least not the way a plectrum does. With a pick, you hit the string and that's the beat. But a fiddle bow gives you an unpunctuated tone that lasts as long as the bow moves.
So most fiddlers struggle for a while to find a sense of rhythm and timing with the bow. You're not alone, and you *can* work through it.
What I recommend to my fiddle students is lots of slow playing. Take a tune that you're most familiar with and get more familiar--intimate, even--with it. Play each note with a separate bow stroke, and pay close attention to the timing of each note, both as played by your bow, and as touched by your fingers.
You want to play r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w. You want to play so slow that you have time to listen to how each note starts (do you ease into it or does it start abruptly?) the duration of each note, and how each note ends (again, do you ease out of it, or does it suddenly just stop). And you'll want to pay attention to all this in terms of what your bow hand is doing, *and* also what your left fingers are doing. Let nothing escape your attention.
Don't speed up until you hear each note sounding just the way you want it to sound. Then gradually come up to playing speed (whatever that happens to be). Watch for where you trip up and go back over that note or phrase--back at the s-l-o-w pace--until you've sussed out what the trouble is and found a way to resolve it.
Once you can do this with single bows, then work through the same tune with slurs. Don't be surprised if your sense of where to slur changes due to this whole approach. In this music, its most common to slur from a weak note onto a strong beat note. So you'll likely want to increase bow speed or a skooch of weight on the bow as you come onto the beat.
In short, the slow playing allows you to really get inside the tune, listen to all the nuances, and respond to them with your bow hand and fingering, and to focus on coordinating the two. After 30 years of this music, I'm convinced that slow playing is the key to playing well at tempo. Hope it works for you, too.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
I agree with Will, lots more slow playing and paying attention to what you are doing while playing slowly will help you out
what is happening is that you are not dead sure what your muscles are supposed to be doing, so when you speed up, God only knows what will happen.
You need to be aware of how you are actually bowing the passage. You can't expect that stuff to take care of itself. It only seems to be like that for other players when they have spent the hours of practice
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Very basic excercise that worked for me:
All single bows, keeping the bow on the string while you take the pause. Left hand action - wait for a second - play - next left hand action - wait - play - etc etc.
All very slowly to start with.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Thank you all. You've given me some great suggestions and insight.
Mary
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Antikhntr
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Regarding too much left-hand finger pressure, if you press down too hard, then there will be an opposing reaction from the thumb and this will tend to tighten the left hand (possibly one reason for the infamous "death-grip"). The fingers also cannot easily move fast and will not be sufficiently relaxed.
I know this particular paragraph may not be all that relevant for the Irish fiddler, but a tight left hand with heavy finger finger pressure makes it difficult to get those enviably smooth gliding shifts up and down the fingerboard that look so easy (which they actually are if you're sufficiently relaxed); and a relaxed controlled vibrato (again, not all that relevant here) is likewise difficult - I've seen too many people try to do a vibrato by a sort of stiff nervous "juddering" of the hand which not only doesn't look good but usually doesn't sound it either and must be tiring.
An exercise my teacher gave me to help me understand how little finger pressure on the string is required is this: take a piece of music you know well and play it right through with the fingers barely touching the strings. It will sound dreadful, nothings but squeaks and stuff, so ignore the neighbour's hammering on the party wall and the dog howling a few houses away. Repeat but very slightly increase the finger pressure until a musical tone emerges. When this happens the string will not actually be touching the fingerboard, the fingers should feel relaxed (as should the thumb) and you're getting a good tone. Pressing the finger harder until the string is right up against the fingerboard just uses up more energy, stiffens the hand, and makes fast finger action more difficult.
Another exercise my teacher has given me is for ultimate bowing control, is not at all easy and can be expected to take at least several months before you can do it anything like properly. Play an open string (the A to start with), the bow starting at the frog and playing with the whole of the bow right up to the tip as quietly and as slowly as possible. Play halfway between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge and have the hairs of the bow flat on the string at all times, and the bow parallel to the bridge at all times The eventual aim is to take 60 seconds to do this single bow stroke, with no stopping, bouncing of the bow or juddering of the stick, and a good tone that's even all the way with no squeaks etc. Remember you have to play as quietly as possible to do this. Try to be aware at a low level of everything that is happening in your right arm from the shoulder to the tips of the fingers. You'll have to achieve fine control of the pinky (4th finger) on the stick when you're near the frog and gradually release the pressure of the pinky as the bow moves over the string. Then do the same in reverse from the tip back down to the frog. This exercise requires a completely relaxed and controlled right arm and hand - any stiffness will ruin it - and a poor bow hold will immediately show. 60 seconds may seem impossible to achieve (fyi I haven't reached it yet), but aim first for 20, then 30, and so on. When you can do this exercise well you'll have a level of fine bowing control that is the basis for all types of playing, including fast playing with full sync with the fingers of the left hand.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Thanks lazyhound, My vibrato is fairly relaxed but I've been paying more attention to my right arm/hand and find I'm pretty stiff, I think that's where most of the problem is. I'm concentrating on relaxing and can see already that it will help me. As I said I can play at what I feel is an acceptable speed for reels, jigs etc. but find when I'm play with others there's always someone who wants to go faster. (that's another thread altogether) I do work on the long slow bow but by the time I get to the frog it sounds like an old man out of breath. Oh well, that's part of why I love the fiddle/violin......the challenge!
Mary
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Antikhntr
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Trevor, do you actually suggest a way of playing without touching the fingerboard, or is this just menat as an exercise?
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
meant
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
Henk, it's primarily an exercise to get the left hand and fingers relaxed, and to show that you don't need to hammer the fingers down on the strings; but it has a practical spin-off in that when you're doing very fast finger work you'll find it is far more effective if the fingers don't hammer down on the strings - the strings therefore don't necessarily need to touch the fingerboard (incidentally, the height of the strings above the fingerboard on a particular fiddle - the action - is also a factor in the equation). If you watch a good classical violinist doing a trill it looks like a fluttering of the finger on the string; and a 4th or 3rd finger cut in Irish fiddle playing is similar in that the string also doesn't touch the fingerboard and the light finger movement should be almost too fast for the eye to follow.
However, an occasion when you do need to get the string into contact with the fingerboard is if you're playing very quietly and usually relatively slowly (so it's more of a classical thing than Irish fiddle). If the string isn't in firm contact with the fingerboard under these conditions the quality of the tone will suffer - but even so, excessive finger pressure should be avoided.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
thanks!
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fingers & bowing out of sync
A simple test to see if a finger is bearing down too hard on the string:- slide it up the string a half-tone or tone while maintaining tone. If it moves easily and smoothly then all is well. If it doesn't then you're pressing down too hard.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings