Background first - at a large session a couple of weeks ago, I heard a wonderful guitar player (Jane - you know who you are) playing a guitar that had a rather muted tone (cedar/rosewood?) that I felt worked very well with the session. My spruce/rosewood guitar sounded bright by comparison. So, it got me wondering what kind of guitar backup tonality works best from a melody player's perspective.
Do you like bright...lots of pick sound...that helps drive a rhythm?
Do you like a subtle muted chord structure?
Something else? What works for you (except, no guitars at all!!)
I like a backup sound from a guitar (unless the guitarist is picking a tune on his/her own). I like to play with a guitarist who is obviously listening to what other people are playing, plays when she/he knows the tune, and adds something to the tune. As for driving rhythyms or subtle muted chord structure, I don't know. Or the difference between cedar/rosewood and spruce/rosewood. I'm not sure that I could tell the difference. The sound I want is one in which all the instruments are playing in the tune. The melody is standing out, of course, but the guitar is present as a backup. I don't think the guitar (or any other backup/accompaniment instrument) should ever be so loud that it overwhelms the melody. I think really good guitar players know the tunes they are playing, know how to back up the melody players, and constantly listen (just like the melody players) to hear what everyone else is playing.
In Irish trad, especially at sessions, I don't think guitar (or drum, or any backing) should "drive" the music. The backers follow and let the melody players set the drive, lope, saunter, and so on.
So I guess I should answer the question. The tone of the guitar doesn't matter much to me, as long as it's well in the background and not dictating or constraining the rhythm, timing, pace, harmony, etc.. of the tunes.
And FWIW, I'm a fan of cedar-top guitars (like Jane's).
Hi Will - so what is it you like about the tones. I know you play guitars (don't you have a Koa/Koa coming soon?) and I am really curious about the tones that work well for backup. I may be selling my bouzouki to finance another guitar that would be more appropriate than my current axe....
I agree that cedar tops are good...but I am also wondering about a mahogany top/mahonaney sides/back Larrivee in my future.
I've had the Koa/Koa Taylor now since early December--a dream guitar! But I'd never use it for backing this music--too full in the bass and mid range (although it is nice for slow tunes).
I've owned a number of cedar tops over the years, and what I really like about them (over mahogany) is how the notes were focused and clear, not at all fuzzy or muddy. No doubt a well-made mahogany top could do the same--I just haven't heard one.
Smaller body guitars also work well, even with spruce tops. An "OOO" or similar set up for strumming is wonderful.
What I would describe as a deep resonant tone with impeccable rhythm, not unduly loud in relation to the melody instrument(s), is my idea of good backing guitar.
I don't bother asking that anymore and reckon if I've been asked along to play the guitar thats what I'll do and they'll just have to put up with my spin on things. They don't have to ask me back! But I love listening to others and I'm often impressed by individual approach enough to want to incorporate a little of what I hear in my own playing.
I think the guitarist should listen listen & listen some more. As is the nature of a well played tune, there is a dynamic element that needs to be respected by accompanists and in my VHO this is often sadly lacking in some accompaniment. Focusing in on the treatment of the tune by the individual player (or session leader) gives the most complete accompaniment IMO. In other words accompany the player not the tune, as by doing so you'll be accompanying the version of the tune that is actually being played, although I accept that this approach requires the backer to be sure of the basics of tune in question.
I prefer spruce top for the crisper bass note, especially in a Scottish tune context (think root A chord in standard), but then again a cedar top is fine tending to be slightly warmer (I have both), back & side material is key for tone IMO: rosewood v's solidmahog, both have their plus points. Scale length, although only a subtle difference between model/make, makes a tangible difference also.
cocus while I agree whole heartedly with your comment I'm sure you'd agree when all things are considered, it's a long and winding road to being that person.
Interesting conversation...and appreciated. The long and winding road is true, and this guitarist is listening...just like I try to do in sessions. To summarize some of the comments on tone (notwithstanding player ability), good bass, clean and focused individual notes (rather than muddy) and not that much emphasis on trebles seems to be the consensus. And, you can find these characteristics in a variety of woods, models, makers, and scale lengths. Right?
I especially appreciate the comment on no thrash. I think it is too easy to get into thrash, especially when there are more than one rhythm player in a session....and admit that I may be guilt of that, too.
Thanks...and more comments/discussion are most welcome.
In my post above I mention accompanying the player and I have to say that approach has turned a few heads on more than a few occasions for me. The little subtle lift a player adds to a particular phrase, say on a repeat or the wee unplanned variation (players never make mistakes), whatever it is, when I'm in the zone thats what I'm listening for. When I'm listening I find I can get right there behind them making that wee mistake sound, dare I say, almost arranged. If your busy chunking along thinking "I know how this go's" you run the risk of chunking over the wee subtle bits the poor player has been honing in front of the mirror for weeks and will likely draw a look or two for the wrong reasons.
Like I say get right behind them, and be ready to lift it or take it down with them (reacting to the dynamics as they move, but always from behind (as the actor said to the bishop)). If your laying down a heavy thrash groove you've effectively trapped yourself and will find it hard to adjust to other elements you hear. Often you don't need fancy chords to make the point, the right hand is where it's happening and I find playing round the natural pulse of the tune is where it's at most of the time.
Playing in a duet is best IMO for honing your accompaniment as if you don't pull the socks up pronto the player will be off in search of another. The work load is not to many players liking in this situation so an accompanist who helps the player sound good will be appreciated above a chord wizard because it helps lighten the load.
I like any accompanist that doesn't annoy me. Simple. Beyond that I'm not to fussed about whatever style they plau. If we are playing away at a session and I am not thinking at all about the guitar (or zouk or whatever), that's good. If I'm thinking, "He's all right," that's better. If I'm thinking, "What on earth is he doing?" that's bad.
Don't annoy, don't distract from the melody and for f*ck's sake if the melody players can't hear each other, or worse, themselves, over you, play softer.
My other pet peeve: Please avoid random jazz chords. Don't know about others, but when I hear some totally bizarre chord leap out of a guitar mid-tune, I'm very likely to stumble over a beat or two, startled. I am aware some trad guitarists use jazz chord tactfully and effectively, but if you are not one of those people, don't do it.
No one sound works with every group in every room. Different styles call for different accomaniment. Style now seems to be in your face, lots of hand damping, moving basses, which is fun, but in general, I prefer something more subtle.
Also in general, I think people get too wrapped up in the tone of the instrument, when most of the magic comes from the tone the player brings out of the instrument.
Simple but solid guitar chording seems to work best for most sessions as a foundation for everyone else, but I would hate to relegate a musician to a support role all the time. If you go too far in this direction the music just plods along.
The best sessions I have heard are groups of people that have been together long enough to work out their collective "chemistry." Finding a balance between instruments is difficult.
"And don't put your cigarette in the ashtray. The smoke will drift straight towards the flute player."
So avoid putting marijuana cigarettes in that ashtray unless you want wild jazz ornamentation from the flute player?
I don't think anyone is being relegated, I think it's just the nature of the music. The melody is king and anything that detracts from that is counterproductive. Anything that supports that is what everyone seems to be looking for.
I doubt many non-guitarists would really pay much attention the natural tone of the guitar. What is far more important is how the player utilises it. A sensitive backer should be able to respond to the tonal characteristics of whatever guitar they are playing and adjust their playing style accordingly - e.g, if it is a loud, bright sounding guitar, then hold back on the volume and perhaps mute the strings a bit.
For myself, as a sometimes-guitarist, I prefer the brightness of spruce - but I primarily play melody, not backing. As for being backed, I would much rather hear a good guitarist playing a robot-built heap of plywood than somebody thrashing out chords on a top-flight handmade guitar.
(ThIs is one of those dancing_about_architecture topics.) There are appropriate ways to use a bright or dark or muted or loud or clear or muddy guitar. As long as the guitarist has decent basic musicality and approaches it more as punctuating the tune rather than driving the tune, it'll probably be okay with me, regardless of the voice of the guitar.
I think it was probably a slip of the keyboard. I think it might have been their way of saying no jazzy chords without necessarily understanding chord structure.
For what it's worth I don't see why anything should be ruled out as long as you know how to apply it properly and as long as it works in the context. I for one play lots of minor 7th chords and a fair few major 7th chords and it is all part of the standard fair. Em9 is a lovely warm chord which works very well in D major as all you are doing is adding an F#. I have even started playing the occasional F#7th chord instead of an F#m7 in a D major run and as long as it is very brief I quite like it.
I want the right chords, in the right place laying a solid rhythmical foundation. Plenty of dynamics. As the tune actually needs no accompaniment then silence from the guitar is a tool to be used, so the dynamic range is as broad as possible.
The guitarist needs to be able to listen and respond as if we were one,needs to know the tunes, the structures and typical chord patterns. Wants to be reliable and supportive.
I dont particularly like what is commonly accepted as 'the traditional guitar sound' if you know what I mean, Id rather something a bit heavier and powerful, but sensitive and subtle too .Well you asked !
Hey Ionnannas, you sure you're describing the perfect guitar accompanist and not something else .................? I need a cold
shower after reading your selection criteria!
Will--Tonic is good mixed with gin, a 5th is nice if it's Scotch. I've heard of people paying money for Dominants but it's not a scene I've ever been interested in...
Just meant to say that, for me, complicated chord structures sound too 'jazzy' or new 'age-y'.
Yep, messing around with 5ths (sharp or flat or 9ths in the same context) is a sure fire way to overly complicate everything and usually requires the listener to mentally try n fit a round sonic object into a hole that’s looking for a square. I know that some like it and think it clever but to my ear there are very few tunes (especially with ITM) which suit this treatment, although there are many fine exponents of that style.
Maj/min7ths work well though, in the right place.
If you take say a Emin chord, a Cmaj7th is essentially the same chord with just a little colour shade of difference, which if used sparingly (and depending on the mode the tune is in) sounds really tradie and bang in context. Min7th chords sound fine and again are only a very slight shade away from a natural minor so that the colour added, especially in the major keys when used as passing chords, works well. So it's all relative the important thing being to listen.
Fusion of Trad with rock, funk or techno backing etc…. is all fine and well if your into that sort of thing but I’m quite conservative and although I like listening to some of it I’m not into playing it and would run a mile if a DJ turned up to mix a few beats at a session.
Part of the fun (and the challenge) of playing the guitar (piano or zook etc…) at sessions or gigs; is not knowing all the tunes. Being able to make a good job of adding meaningful backing that makes the overall sound complete is where it’s at IMO. This should be the aim of a trad guitarist: to be able to play in almost all circumstances. I would advise any aspiring guitar player to build up an arsenal of plying tools to enable this. Give me a key (if you want the changes to sound tight and a wink before we move to the coda) and my ears will take care of the rest. Sure there are funny timings and tunes which change keys with each part but that’s all part of the spice of life and it keeps you on the edge of your seat.
The best advice I was ever given when I was a youth came from a guitarist of some renown who was complimenting me on my treatment of accompanying “the gun’s”, with the tricky third part, I told him in response that I was playing on the edge of my seat the whole time and need to practice a lot more to get anywhere near his standard. He told me to have a little more confidence as I’d just taught him the way round the third part and he added, “well, if your playing on the edge of your seat you’ve sussed it, that’s where I play and with these”, pointing to his ears.
No Cause's backing fits the tunes very well. I don't know if the chords he described are accepted "jazzy" chords or not, but they work so I'm happy when I have a tune with him.
As long as the backing doesn't clash with the tunes, it works for me.
And another thing, if something clashes why is it always seen as the guitarists fault? Shouldn't the melody players be listening to the guitarist and endeavouring to play something that fits? It is a two-way street.
If I can play the tune, not hit too many bum notes, play the correct B part the correct amount of times, and not f*ck up the timing too badly, I'm having a good day. You now want me to think about how it fits with the chords you're playing?
More seriously, no. The melody is king (as some others here have said). I don't think melody players should have to think about how whatever they are playing fits with an Am chord. They play the tune and players of a decent standard can generally play variations that fit the tune. That said, they should listen to the guitarist as everyone should listen to each other, but the guitarist isn't leading the tunes.
I also don't pay much attention to the timbre of the guitar, but rather to what the guitarist is doing.
About "driving the music", one of my favourite guitarists to play with plays very loud and strong but everything he does is bang-on and it's a pleasure to play with him.
I really like his strumming approach to jigs: he picks jigs
down (rest) down, down up down
rather than alternating down and up strokes like most guitarists I've seen.
It's tiring, he says, because four of the five strokes are downstrokes.
But it gives tremendous lift to jigs.
About the timbre, one of my favourite guitarists uses a nice bright-sounding Taylor 12-string and its sound is perfect for Irish music I think.
Some guitars sound too muddy/dull/dark to work with with Irish music.
And another, as there are few moments of appreciation when melody fluffs are successfully saved by the accompanists agility and quick thinking. I savour the moments, and the looks of distain, that are passed when the melody player makes such an ar$e of a phrase, that no amount of nifty harmony jiggering can rescue them.
I don't consider myself a good enough melody player to always be absolved of blame, unlike some I could name, but then again taking the wrap is part and parcel of accompaniment, it's the nature of the beast.
<<If something clashes why is it always seen as the guitarists fault? Shouldn't the melody players be listening to the guitarist and endeavouring to play something that fits? It is a two-way street.<<
IMO Absolutely not. The guitarist is there to support the tune, to provide a rhythmic and harmonic structure.
To Listen very carefully and play the tune through the stacked notes of their chords, also play the tunes bass progressions and chords .
There are 4 main aspects; the melody, the bass,the chords,and the rhythm. Of 'The Tune'. Different players will concentrate more on different aspects , some do a lot of bass work but minimal rhythm, etc etc.
Where the tunesmith can listen and respond to the guitarist is rhythmically and chord-ally, ie double stops or regulators/ right hand chords for boxes. .
But not melodically: So the guitar doesnt want to be playing leading notes that interfere with the melodies structure and flow.
Rhythmically, yes very much so. But the guitar does not really have a melodic role in general,. I suppose a box payer for example could follow and interweave bass lines with a guitarist? or play them while the guitar plays chords/ rhythm..
My main objection to 'jazzy; chords is that they contain 'leading notes,' notes that direct the melody away from where it is going, the tune.They dominate and attempt to influence the melody. . The notes of the chord should be contained with in the notes and harmonic movement of the tune. So effectively they are playing the same thing. ..
>And another thing, if something clashes why is it always >seen as the guitarists fault? Shouldn't the melody players be >listening to the guitarist and endeavouring to play something >that fits? It is a two-way street
Indeed SWFL. Thanks for asking. I have lots of suggestions.
For example, the tune Jimmy Ward's Jig. Should the melody player start it off in G it is probably just that they don't realise it sounds much better in D. If they are truly listening to me, as the guitarist, then they should be able to adapt and enlightenment should ensue.
Likewise all those terribly dirgy jigs in D mix. A good melody player should be able to adapt the tune so that it fits the D major chords that I am playing.
That should do for now, but I hope it helps to give an idea of what I mean. I really did not expect this to be so controversial.
"For example, the tune Jimmy Ward's Jig. Should the melody player start it off in G it is probably just that they don't realise it sounds much better in D."
No, it doesn't. Can't roll the D and its is all about the G rolls.
I get that you're being a wind up merchant but I also know your feelings about Dmix. Maybe in time you will come to appreciate that beauty of a Dmix jig played slowly and deliberately, bringing out the whiny Cnats as much as possible.
Oh, I see, so really, we're not altering tunes to suit the accompanists, we're actually choosing tunes based on their preferences, I understand now.
Moving forward, it would help to have all the accompanists submit listings of the tunes they prefer at the beginning of each session. Thanks in advance!
@SWFL - You are altering the tunes to fit. You would need to change the melody line to stop it being in D mix. Honestly, try to keep up.
@SS - It is not all about the G rolls. It is all about the D crans. It is also much brighter in D major and means that if you are playing it on a whistle you stand a chance of being heard. If D major was a good enough key for Capercaillie and Lunasa to do it in then it is good enough for me.
Oh and some good tunes to be going along with for the benefit of SWFL - Mutt's Favourite, The High Drive, The Flooded Road to Glenties, The Rabbit, The Jolly Tinker, The Old Bush, The Antrim Rose, Dr McPhail's Reel, Muineira De Casu, Sandy Broon's Jig, The Wise Maid (the one I submitted as opposed to the other one!).
Do you know what key it was originally written in? I suspect G, if it was written by a flute player, as those big G rolls down to the bottom D cran is very flutey.
No cause; I agree with your point regarding D maj chord substitution on them pesky D modal ITM tunes. I find sometimes the odd D maj can really lift a tune in that context, same with A in STM, or any key for that matter.
The guitar is my first love, although I seldom take it to sessions these days, but IMO the accompanists job is to accompany what ever is going down and that I can find really enjoyable, especially if there's no list of what to expect. Having said that I have had the odd fiddler tell me that they've changed their version of a tune due to getting an idea from my accompaniment when playing guitar, so there are a fair few who listen to the accompaniment IME and take onboard new ideas.
>For example, the tune Jimmy Ward's Jig. Should the melody >player start it off in G it is probably just that they don't realise it >sounds much better in D. If they are truly listening to me, as >the guitarist, then they should be able to adapt and >enlightenment should ensue.
>Likewise all those terribly dirgy jigs in D mix. A good melody >player should be able to adapt the tune so that it fits the D >major chords that I am playing.
Now that is the funniest thing I've read on this forum in years.
I'm going to make myself assume that Mr Alarm is in a particularly witty mood and leave it at that.
I'm hoping on of our resident Bodhran players posts a tongue in cheek message agreeing with the above and noting how tunes would be so much improved if players would only listen to where the drummer was inserting trebles in much more intersting placed than the fiddler and oh why couldn't they just learn. Go on Bliss that's your cue
Please excuse my lack of knowledge if I am wrong but I always assumed that guitar backing in sessions was analogous to soloist with piano accompaniment in classical playing. ie. the accompanist follows the melody player. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.
Solidmahog - for the sake of clarity I was talking about chords in a d major scale rather than just the odd d major chord. The correct D chord for tunes in D mix would be a D major anyway. I hope you are not playing D minor chords for tunes in D mix as I know a guitarist that does that and I would happily surgically insert his guitar somewhere where it could do a lot less damage!
SS - yes it was originally written in G but is more popular in D in Scotland as it fits on the pipes in that key (the real pies that is - none of your imitation Irish stuff).
no cause's basic statement regarding melody adjustment to latch on to an accompanists playing isn't all that unusual but it's the sort of thing that only happens with people when they play regularly together and are looking for new arrangements.
Players changing the melody slightly to some tunes is something that happens all the time. I've got many versions of the same tunes on itunes, for example; none are exactly the same and some don't even comply to the same chord structure, yet they are all versions of the same tune, it's interesting to bung them all on a play list and have a listen back to back. Isn't that what orally transmitted music is all about. But having said that, I'd not be happy with an accompanist bumming the chords and then asking where was I with the melody, IME thats the sort of things certain fiddlers do...........
no cause, in Dmix I tend to leave the 3rd out of the root chord and if the melody should contain an F sharp (sorry no hash on this lap top) you have the option to nail it with a major, just saying like....
On a completely unrelated note I was sitting playing the whistle at lunch time when I was all alone in the office and it was lovely. Was playing Kitty Got a Clinking Going to the Fair, Haste to the Wedding and that nice Asturian Muiniera that JosephofCK posted the other week (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/9549).
Why are you telling me that Jimmy Ward's in D is more popular in Scotland as if I am living in blissful ignorance in America? Uh, I live here, which you know, I hope, (ever seen "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?"), and loads of people play it in G. I played it like three times in the course of marathon sessions yesterday, all in G, and I didn't start it once. I'd say that I only hear it in D in sessions with Scottish pipers or in sessions with people who play frequently with Scottish pipers. Obviously, because they can't play in G no matter how much they might want to. Poor Scottish pipers.
Also some of those so called mix tunes aren't in that mode in all the parts or some parts don't actually lean on the third that much, all to common. Jennie's welcome to charlie or bunker hill being two examples which spring to mind of where the parts move from a minor feel to a major lift, or the varra reel in em which starts with an E maj for the first two bars of the fist part, sean sa` cheo in A (1st part can work well in E modal/minor depending on how it's played).
"Ah, ok. I tend to leave 3rds out all over the place anyway. Come to think of it, there are not many times when I do play an f# in my D chords. Hmmmm."
When you do though, that'll be where the wee lift comes from : )
Emily:
1. Perhaps because this is an open forum and not everyone might know that.
2. No need for your particular brand of sarcasm.
3. No I have not seen it - never even heard of it, but I have just looked it up and, frankly it sounds like a fantastic idea!
4. I am not surprised you all played it in G. It was a very Irish session wasn't it?
You really can draw the fun out of a room can't you?!
No need for your particular brand of telling me, from your boundless expertise and intellect, that it is more popular in Scotland as if I simply have no clue one way or another. You just come off as patronizing.
Not fair - this was a nice friendly thread where I was having a grand old time making people either chuckle or wonder if I was serious or not - or better still not knowing where I was serious and where I was slightly less so.
Oh and to answer the original question. I have a Taylor 414ce guitar with Rosewood back and sides and a sprice top. I play with .60mm Dunlop "Riffs" plectrums and I mostly strum. I also play chords that involve lots of bass runs.
I love the bouzouki cross-picking sound but don't seem to employ it much on the guitar.
I must play muted as I have a callus the size of a marble on the bottom left hand side of my right hand just above my wrist from where it comes in constant contact with the sharp point at the edge of the saddle.
I find my guitar, not being the biggest-bodied can be relatively quiet in comparison to some, but with a new set of strings the volume is greatly increased.
Sure no cause, just apologise for your uncalled for comment and Im sure things will get back to where you want them to be. I did think it was a quite objectionable thing to say and im not surprised SS was offended.
Perhaps neither of us covered each other in glory in that exchange and perhaps we have both sorted it out off-board (where it should be sorted out) so perhaps there is no need to discuss it any more.
Do you know what key it was originally written in? I suspect G, if it was written by a flute player, as those big G rolls down to the bottom D cran is very flutey.
I like the tune in G. There's a big G chord that you can play in DADGAD by putting your thumb over the lowest D on the 5th fret and covering the high A and D with your middle, also on the 5th fret, muting the low A. This chord BOOMS! and then followed by an open D just makes such a nice bold framework for the A part of the tune.
bill harte's is another floater. I think from D to A. I always name keys wrong, but i can live with that, up or down a string if you are a banjo/mandolin/fiddle player.
I like it on the lower string, but recently I hear it more often on the higher.
Dinkies is another I prefer in D to A. I first thread it and learned it years ago in D which I greatly prefer. But I think A was the original key, and certainly I hear it in A more fequent now that it seems to have become commonly played in the circles I move in. I ahdn't played it for a long time, but if I start it, I'll start it in D. (Mutter mutter, crappy bright featureless A).
What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Background first - at a large session a couple of weeks ago, I heard a wonderful guitar player (Jane - you know who you are) playing a guitar that had a rather muted tone (cedar/rosewood?) that I felt worked very well with the session. My spruce/rosewood guitar sounded bright by comparison. So, it got me wondering what kind of guitar backup tonality works best from a melody player's perspective.
Do you like bright...lots of pick sound...that helps drive a rhythm?
Do you like a subtle muted chord structure?
Something else? What works for you (except, no guitars at all!!)
Cheers,
Dave
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by irishrhythm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
believe me, tone is where it's at . . .
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I like a backup sound from a guitar (unless the guitarist is picking a tune on his/her own). I like to play with a guitarist who is obviously listening to what other people are playing, plays when she/he knows the tune, and adds something to the tune. As for driving rhythyms or subtle muted chord structure, I don't know. Or the difference between cedar/rosewood and spruce/rosewood. I'm not sure that I could tell the difference. The sound I want is one in which all the instruments are playing in the tune. The melody is standing out, of course, but the guitar is present as a backup. I don't think the guitar (or any other backup/accompaniment instrument) should ever be so loud that it overwhelms the melody. I think really good guitar players know the tunes they are playing, know how to back up the melody players, and constantly listen (just like the melody players) to hear what everyone else is playing.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Lotsa deep bass tones and no 7th's, 5th's, augmented flat fives.....no creepy harmonics either!
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by shanty
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
In Irish trad, especially at sessions, I don't think guitar (or drum, or any backing) should "drive" the music. The backers follow and let the melody players set the drive, lope, saunter, and so on.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
So I guess I should answer the question. The tone of the guitar doesn't matter much to me, as long as it's well in the background and not dictating or constraining the rhythm, timing, pace, harmony, etc.. of the tunes.
And FWIW, I'm a fan of cedar-top guitars (like Jane's).
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Hi Will - so what is it you like about the tones. I know you play guitars (don't you have a Koa/Koa coming soon?) and I am really curious about the tones that work well for backup. I may be selling my bouzouki to finance another guitar that would be more appropriate than my current axe....
I agree that cedar tops are good...but I am also wondering about a mahogany top/mahonaney sides/back Larrivee in my future.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by irishrhythm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I've had the Koa/Koa Taylor now since early December--a dream guitar! But I'd never use it for backing this music--too full in the bass and mid range (although it is nice for slow tunes).
I've owned a number of cedar tops over the years, and what I really like about them (over mahogany) is how the notes were focused and clear, not at all fuzzy or muddy. No doubt a well-made mahogany top could do the same--I just haven't heard one.
Smaller body guitars also work well, even with spruce tops. An "OOO" or similar set up for strumming is wonderful.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Dave, you might fall in love with a Taylor cedar top--either the Grand Concert or Grand Symphony (GC is here http://www.taylorguitars.com/Guitars/Acoustic/GC/GC7/)
My Koa is a custom GS. Taylor has the bracing system down for clarity and response.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
NOT thrash.!!
What I would describe as a deep resonant tone with impeccable rhythm, not unduly loud in relation to the melody instrument(s), is my idea of good backing guitar.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by nicholas
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Dennis Cahill has it all.
It isn't the instrument but the person who is holding it.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by David Levine
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I don't bother asking that anymore and reckon if I've been asked along to play the guitar thats what I'll do and they'll just have to put up with my spin on things. They don't have to ask me back! But I love listening to others and I'm often impressed by individual approach enough to want to incorporate a little of what I hear in my own playing.
I think the guitarist should listen listen & listen some more. As is the nature of a well played tune, there is a dynamic element that needs to be respected by accompanists and in my VHO this is often sadly lacking in some accompaniment. Focusing in on the treatment of the tune by the individual player (or session leader) gives the most complete accompaniment IMO. In other words accompany the player not the tune, as by doing so you'll be accompanying the version of the tune that is actually being played, although I accept that this approach requires the backer to be sure of the basics of tune in question.
I prefer spruce top for the crisper bass note, especially in a Scottish tune context (think root A chord in standard), but then again a cedar top is fine tending to be slightly warmer (I have both), back & side material is key for tone IMO: rosewood v's solidmahog, both have their plus points. Scale length, although only a subtle difference between model/make, makes a tangible difference also.
cocus while I agree whole heartedly with your comment I'm sure you'd agree when all things are considered, it's a long and winding road to being that person.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Interesting conversation...and appreciated. The long and winding road is true, and this guitarist is listening...just like I try to do in sessions. To summarize some of the comments on tone (notwithstanding player ability), good bass, clean and focused individual notes (rather than muddy) and not that much emphasis on trebles seems to be the consensus. And, you can find these characteristics in a variety of woods, models, makers, and scale lengths. Right?
I especially appreciate the comment on no thrash. I think it is too easy to get into thrash, especially when there are more than one rhythm player in a session....and admit that I may be guilt of that, too.
Thanks...and more comments/discussion are most welcome.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by irishrhythm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
It all boils down to being discrete and listening to all that's going on around you (if you can't hear the tune clearly then something's wrong).
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
"If you can't hear the tune clearly then something's wrong."
Which applies to us melody players, too.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
In my post above I mention accompanying the player and I have to say that approach has turned a few heads on more than a few occasions for me. The little subtle lift a player adds to a particular phrase, say on a repeat or the wee unplanned variation (players never make mistakes), whatever it is, when I'm in the zone thats what I'm listening for. When I'm listening I find I can get right there behind them making that wee mistake sound, dare I say, almost arranged. If your busy chunking along thinking "I know how this go's" you run the risk of chunking over the wee subtle bits the poor player has been honing in front of the mirror for weeks and will likely draw a look or two for the wrong reasons.
Like I say get right behind them, and be ready to lift it or take it down with them (reacting to the dynamics as they move, but always from behind (as the actor said to the bishop)). If your laying down a heavy thrash groove you've effectively trapped yourself and will find it hard to adjust to other elements you hear. Often you don't need fancy chords to make the point, the right hand is where it's happening and I find playing round the natural pulse of the tune is where it's at most of the time.
Playing in a duet is best IMO for honing your accompaniment as if you don't pull the socks up pronto the player will be off in search of another. The work load is not to many players liking in this situation so an accompanist who helps the player sound good will be appreciated above a chord wizard because it helps lighten the load.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
"Always from behind ... "
l like to play with people shoulder to shoulder. Anyone playing behind me is at best pointless, more often merely irritating.
"accompanist who helps the player sound good will be appreciated"
Only appreciated by spineless arrogants. "Ooohh yeah, I love to have such and such strum to my playing, it makes me sound so much better." Tossers
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by ...
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I like any accompanist that doesn't annoy me. Simple. Beyond that I'm not to fussed about whatever style they plau. If we are playing away at a session and I am not thinking at all about the guitar (or zouk or whatever), that's good. If I'm thinking, "He's all right," that's better. If I'm thinking, "What on earth is he doing?" that's bad.
Don't annoy, don't distract from the melody and for f*ck's sake if the melody players can't hear each other, or worse, themselves, over you, play softer.
My other pet peeve: Please avoid random jazz chords. Don't know about others, but when I hear some totally bizarre chord leap out of a guitar mid-tune, I'm very likely to stumble over a beat or two, startled. I am aware some trad guitarists use jazz chord tactfully and effectively, but if you are not one of those people, don't do it.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
No one sound works with every group in every room. Different styles call for different accomaniment. Style now seems to be in your face, lots of hand damping, moving basses, which is fun, but in general, I prefer something more subtle.
Also in general, I think people get too wrapped up in the tone of the instrument, when most of the magic comes from the tone the player brings out of the instrument.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
And don't put your cigarette in the ashtray. The smoke will drift straight towards the flute player.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by gam
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Simple but solid guitar chording seems to work best for most sessions as a foundation for everyone else, but I would hate to relegate a musician to a support role all the time. If you go too far in this direction the music just plods along.
The best sessions I have heard are groups of people that have been together long enough to work out their collective "chemistry." Finding a balance between instruments is difficult.
"And don't put your cigarette in the ashtray. The smoke will drift straight towards the flute player."
So avoid putting marijuana cigarettes in that ashtray unless you want wild jazz ornamentation from the flute player?
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Micheál
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I don't think anyone is being relegated, I think it's just the nature of the music. The melody is king and anything that detracts from that is counterproductive. Anything that supports that is what everyone seems to be looking for.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I doubt many non-guitarists would really pay much attention the natural tone of the guitar. What is far more important is how the player utilises it. A sensitive backer should be able to respond to the tonal characteristics of whatever guitar they are playing and adjust their playing style accordingly - e.g, if it is a loud, bright sounding guitar, then hold back on the volume and perhaps mute the strings a bit.
For myself, as a sometimes-guitarist, I prefer the brightness of spruce - but I primarily play melody, not backing. As for being backed, I would much rather hear a good guitarist playing a robot-built heap of plywood than somebody thrashing out chords on a top-flight handmade guitar.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
(ThIs is one of those dancing_about_architecture topics.) There are appropriate ways to use a bright or dark or muted or loud or clear or muddy guitar. As long as the guitarist has decent basic musicality and approaches it more as punctuating the tune rather than driving the tune, it'll probably be okay with me, regardless of the voice of the guitar.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
"Lotsa deep bass tones and no 7th's, 5th's, augmented flat fives.....no creepy harmonics either!"
No 5ths? What are you thinking? That is the most important relation to the tonic in the music. It is called the dominant for a good reason.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by will morgan
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I think it was probably a slip of the keyboard. I think it might have been their way of saying no jazzy chords without necessarily understanding chord structure.
For what it's worth I don't see why anything should be ruled out as long as you know how to apply it properly and as long as it works in the context. I for one play lots of minor 7th chords and a fair few major 7th chords and it is all part of the standard fair. Em9 is a lovely warm chord which works very well in D major as all you are doing is adding an F#. I have even started playing the occasional F#7th chord instead of an F#m7 in a D major run and as long as it is very brief I quite like it.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I wouldn't call what I do "jazz" for a second though.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I want the right chords, in the right place laying a solid rhythmical foundation. Plenty of dynamics. As the tune actually needs no accompaniment then silence from the guitar is a tool to be used, so the dynamic range is as broad as possible.
The guitarist needs to be able to listen and respond as if we were one,needs to know the tunes, the structures and typical chord patterns. Wants to be reliable and supportive.
I dont particularly like what is commonly accepted as 'the traditional guitar sound' if you know what I mean, Id rather something a bit heavier and powerful, but sensitive and subtle too .Well you asked !
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
"...if you know what I mean..."
I have no idea what you mean.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Hey Ionnannas, you sure you're describing the perfect guitar accompanist and not something else .................? I need a cold
shower after reading your selection criteria!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Will--Tonic is good mixed with gin, a 5th is nice if it's Scotch. I've heard of people paying money for Dominants but it's not a scene I've ever been interested in...
Just meant to say that, for me, complicated chord structures sound too 'jazzy' or new 'age-y'.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by shanty
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Just some pounding beat - rhythm
and no stopping to to ask / act like
we should play something else
because they don't know the chords.
And I always play one more time
when they are ready to quit --
just because. Never let the guitar
player decide when to quit.
Although sometimes we do arrange
it with a signal.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by dogmageek
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Yep, messing around with 5ths (sharp or flat or 9ths in the same context) is a sure fire way to overly complicate everything and usually requires the listener to mentally try n fit a round sonic object into a hole that’s looking for a square. I know that some like it and think it clever but to my ear there are very few tunes (especially with ITM) which suit this treatment, although there are many fine exponents of that style.
Maj/min7ths work well though, in the right place.
If you take say a Emin chord, a Cmaj7th is essentially the same chord with just a little colour shade of difference, which if used sparingly (and depending on the mode the tune is in) sounds really tradie and bang in context. Min7th chords sound fine and again are only a very slight shade away from a natural minor so that the colour added, especially in the major keys when used as passing chords, works well. So it's all relative the important thing being to listen.
Fusion of Trad with rock, funk or techno backing etc…. is all fine and well if your into that sort of thing but I’m quite conservative and although I like listening to some of it I’m not into playing it and would run a mile if a DJ turned up to mix a few beats at a session.
Part of the fun (and the challenge) of playing the guitar (piano or zook etc…) at sessions or gigs; is not knowing all the tunes. Being able to make a good job of adding meaningful backing that makes the overall sound complete is where it’s at IMO. This should be the aim of a trad guitarist: to be able to play in almost all circumstances. I would advise any aspiring guitar player to build up an arsenal of plying tools to enable this. Give me a key (if you want the changes to sound tight and a wink before we move to the coda) and my ears will take care of the rest. Sure there are funny timings and tunes which change keys with each part but that’s all part of the spice of life and it keeps you on the edge of your seat.
The best advice I was ever given when I was a youth came from a guitarist of some renown who was complimenting me on my treatment of accompanying “the gun’s”, with the tricky third part, I told him in response that I was playing on the edge of my seat the whole time and need to practice a lot more to get anywhere near his standard. He told me to have a little more confidence as I’d just taught him the way round the third part and he added, “well, if your playing on the edge of your seat you’ve sussed it, that’s where I play and with these”, pointing to his ears.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
No Cause's backing fits the tunes very well. I don't know if the chords he described are accepted "jazzy" chords or not, but they work so I'm happy when I have a tune with him.
As long as the backing doesn't clash with the tunes, it works for me.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
And another thing, if something clashes why is it always seen as the guitarists fault? Shouldn't the melody players be listening to the guitarist and endeavouring to play something that fits? It is a two-way street.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I don't think any chords are necessarily a jazz chord. It is more the progression of chords that would make it jazz.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
If I can play the tune, not hit too many bum notes, play the correct B part the correct amount of times, and not f*ck up the timing too badly, I'm having a good day. You now want me to think about how it fits with the chords you're playing?
More seriously, no. The melody is king (as some others here have said). I don't think melody players should have to think about how whatever they are playing fits with an Am chord. They play the tune and players of a decent standard can generally play variations that fit the tune. That said, they should listen to the guitarist as everyone should listen to each other, but the guitarist isn't leading the tunes.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
"Shouldn't the melody players be listening to the guitarist and endeavouring to play something that fits? It is a two-way street."
I think that's a bit controversial.. IMHO, it's the accompanist who should be fitting in with the melody players, not vice-versa.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Cross-post spear
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
But really, it would be better if guitarists and other instrumentalists conspired to MAKE MUSIC instead of "tune + back-up"
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Bren
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Taken as read Bren, surely? Then I'm maybe being too presumptuous there!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Sometimes I wonder. It's like they're on separate streets, but you don't hear that with good musicians, whatever they play
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Bren
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I also don't pay much attention to the timbre of the guitar, but rather to what the guitarist is doing.
About "driving the music", one of my favourite guitarists to play with plays very loud and strong but everything he does is bang-on and it's a pleasure to play with him.
I really like his strumming approach to jigs: he picks jigs
down (rest) down, down up down
rather than alternating down and up strokes like most guitarists I've seen.
It's tiring, he says, because four of the five strokes are downstrokes.
But it gives tremendous lift to jigs.
About the timbre, one of my favourite guitarists uses a nice bright-sounding Taylor 12-string and its sound is perfect for Irish music I think.
Some guitars sound too muddy/dull/dark to work with with Irish music.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Agreed Bren.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
And another, as there are few moments of appreciation when melody fluffs are successfully saved by the accompanists agility and quick thinking. I savour the moments, and the looks of distain, that are passed when the melody player makes such an ar$e of a phrase, that no amount of nifty harmony jiggering can rescue them.
I don't consider myself a good enough melody player to always be absolved of blame, unlike some I could name, but then again taking the wrap is part and parcel of accompaniment, it's the nature of the beast.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
<<If something clashes why is it always seen as the guitarists fault? Shouldn't the melody players be listening to the guitarist and endeavouring to play something that fits? It is a two-way street.<<
IMO Absolutely not. The guitarist is there to support the tune, to provide a rhythmic and harmonic structure.
To Listen very carefully and play the tune through the stacked notes of their chords, also play the tunes bass progressions and chords .
There are 4 main aspects; the melody, the bass,the chords,and the rhythm. Of 'The Tune'. Different players will concentrate more on different aspects , some do a lot of bass work but minimal rhythm, etc etc.
Where the tunesmith can listen and respond to the guitarist is rhythmically and chord-ally, ie double stops or regulators/ right hand chords for boxes. .
But not melodically: So the guitar doesnt want to be playing leading notes that interfere with the melodies structure and flow.
Rhythmically, yes very much so. But the guitar does not really have a melodic role in general,. I suppose a box payer for example could follow and interweave bass lines with a guitarist? or play them while the guitar plays chords/ rhythm..
My main objection to 'jazzy; chords is that they contain 'leading notes,' notes that direct the melody away from where it is going, the tune.They dominate and attempt to influence the melody. . The notes of the chord should be contained with in the notes and harmonic movement of the tune. So effectively they are playing the same thing. ..
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
12-strings: tough. Too easy to turn it into jangle sauce, and the darned things are a b!tch to tune.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by wormdiet
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
No Cause, do you have some suggestions on how a melody player should alter the tune they are playing to fit your accompaniment better?
What a great wind up! Unless it wasn't, in which case...
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
>And another thing, if something clashes why is it always >seen as the guitarists fault? Shouldn't the melody players be >listening to the guitarist and endeavouring to play something >that fits? It is a two-way street
Sorry nocause, but: No.
- chirs
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Indeed SWFL. Thanks for asking. I have lots of suggestions.
For example, the tune Jimmy Ward's Jig. Should the melody player start it off in G it is probably just that they don't realise it sounds much better in D. If they are truly listening to me, as the guitarist, then they should be able to adapt and enlightenment should ensue.
Likewise all those terribly dirgy jigs in D mix. A good melody player should be able to adapt the tune so that it fits the D major chords that I am playing.
That should do for now, but I hope it helps to give an idea of what I mean. I really did not expect this to be so controversial.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Even just playing a few of those D mix jigs a little faster, with some drive, might improve the situation.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
"For example, the tune Jimmy Ward's Jig. Should the melody player start it off in G it is probably just that they don't realise it sounds much better in D."
No, it doesn't. Can't roll the D and its is all about the G rolls.
I get that you're being a wind up merchant but I also know your feelings about Dmix. Maybe in time you will come to appreciate that beauty of a Dmix jig played slowly and deliberately, bringing out the whiny Cnats as much as possible.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Oh, I see, so really, we're not altering tunes to suit the accompanists, we're actually choosing tunes based on their preferences, I understand now.
Moving forward, it would help to have all the accompanists submit listings of the tunes they prefer at the beginning of each session. Thanks in advance!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
@SWFL - You are altering the tunes to fit. You would need to change the melody line to stop it being in D mix. Honestly, try to keep up.
@SS - It is not all about the G rolls. It is all about the D crans. It is also much brighter in D major and means that if you are playing it on a whistle you stand a chance of being heard. If D major was a good enough key for Capercaillie and Lunasa to do it in then it is good enough for me.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
You don't play D crans in that tune when you play it in D. If you want D crans, you have to play it in G!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Oh and some good tunes to be going along with for the benefit of SWFL - Mutt's Favourite, The High Drive, The Flooded Road to Glenties, The Rabbit, The Jolly Tinker, The Old Bush, The Antrim Rose, Dr McPhail's Reel, Muineira De Casu, Sandy Broon's Jig, The Wise Maid (the one I submitted as opposed to the other one!).
That will do for now won't it?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Really Emily - What note does it start on?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
The D one starts on the back D. Can't cran it. Sorry. The lowest note is an A, which you can't cran, either.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Who said I was talking about the pipes? I was talking about the tune. The tune trancends whatever instrument it might be played on.
Anyway it was written by a flute player and you can cran the D on the flute - whatever key he wrote it in.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Do you know what key it was originally written in? I suspect G, if it was written by a flute player, as those big G rolls down to the bottom D cran is very flutey.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
No cause; I agree with your point regarding D maj chord substitution on them pesky D modal ITM tunes. I find sometimes the odd D maj can really lift a tune in that context, same with A in STM, or any key for that matter.
The guitar is my first love, although I seldom take it to sessions these days, but IMO the accompanists job is to accompany what ever is going down and that I can find really enjoyable, especially if there's no list of what to expect. Having said that I have had the odd fiddler tell me that they've changed their version of a tune due to getting an idea from my accompaniment when playing guitar, so there are a fair few who listen to the accompaniment IME and take onboard new ideas.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Funny stuff! Where is Llig when you need him?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
>For example, the tune Jimmy Ward's Jig. Should the melody >player start it off in G it is probably just that they don't realise it >sounds much better in D. If they are truly listening to me, as >the guitarist, then they should be able to adapt and >enlightenment should ensue.
>Likewise all those terribly dirgy jigs in D mix. A good melody >player should be able to adapt the tune so that it fits the D >major chords that I am playing.
Now that is the funniest thing I've read on this forum in years.
I'm going to make myself assume that Mr Alarm is in a particularly witty mood and leave it at that.
I'm hoping on of our resident Bodhran players posts a tongue in cheek message agreeing with the above and noting how tunes would be so much improved if players would only listen to where the drummer was inserting trebles in much more intersting placed than the fiddler and oh why couldn't they just learn. Go on Bliss that's your cue
- chris
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Please excuse my lack of knowledge if I am wrong but I always assumed that guitar backing in sessions was analogous to soloist with piano accompaniment in classical playing. ie. the accompanist follows the melody player. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.
NCFA are you yanking our collective chains?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Solidmahog - for the sake of clarity I was talking about chords in a d major scale rather than just the odd d major chord. The correct D chord for tunes in D mix would be a D major anyway. I hope you are not playing D minor chords for tunes in D mix as I know a guitarist that does that and I would happily surgically insert his guitar somewhere where it could do a lot less damage!
SS - yes it was originally written in G but is more popular in D in Scotland as it fits on the pipes in that key (the real pies that is - none of your imitation Irish stuff).
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
no cause's basic statement regarding melody adjustment to latch on to an accompanists playing isn't all that unusual but it's the sort of thing that only happens with people when they play regularly together and are looking for new arrangements.
Players changing the melody slightly to some tunes is something that happens all the time. I've got many versions of the same tunes on itunes, for example; none are exactly the same and some don't even comply to the same chord structure, yet they are all versions of the same tune, it's interesting to bung them all on a play list and have a listen back to back. Isn't that what orally transmitted music is all about. But having said that, I'd not be happy with an accompanist bumming the chords and then asking where was I with the melody, IME thats the sort of things certain fiddlers do...........
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
no cause, in Dmix I tend to leave the 3rd out of the root chord and if the melody should contain an F sharp (sorry no hash on this lap top) you have the option to nail it with a major, just saying like....
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Ah, ok. I tend to leave 3rds out all over the place anyway. Come to think of it, there are not many times when I do play an f# in my D chords. Hmmmm.
Never mind - carry on!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
On a completely unrelated note I was sitting playing the whistle at lunch time when I was all alone in the office and it was lovely. Was playing Kitty Got a Clinking Going to the Fair, Haste to the Wedding and that nice Asturian Muiniera that JosephofCK posted the other week (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/9549).
As I said, totally unrelated but rather nice.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Why are you telling me that Jimmy Ward's in D is more popular in Scotland as if I am living in blissful ignorance in America? Uh, I live here, which you know, I hope, (ever seen "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?"), and loads of people play it in G. I played it like three times in the course of marathon sessions yesterday, all in G, and I didn't start it once. I'd say that I only hear it in D in sessions with Scottish pipers or in sessions with people who play frequently with Scottish pipers. Obviously, because they can't play in G no matter how much they might want to. Poor Scottish pipers.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Also some of those so called mix tunes aren't in that mode in all the parts or some parts don't actually lean on the third that much, all to common. Jennie's welcome to charlie or bunker hill being two examples which spring to mind of where the parts move from a minor feel to a major lift, or the varra reel in em which starts with an E maj for the first two bars of the fist part, sean sa` cheo in A (1st part can work well in E modal/minor depending on how it's played).
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
no cause wrote:
"Ah, ok. I tend to leave 3rds out all over the place anyway. Come to think of it, there are not many times when I do play an f# in my D chords. Hmmmm."
When you do though, that'll be where the wee lift comes from : )
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
quality music always has, imo, great rhythm and a nice bass line, that's what makes it quality.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEZ2d4cYw4A
Like that. All they need is a well-played bodhran!
(Musicians always smile when the rhythm is right. Otherwise they're like listening to a sermon.)
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Emily:
1. Perhaps because this is an open forum and not everyone might know that.
2. No need for your particular brand of sarcasm.
3. No I have not seen it - never even heard of it, but I have just looked it up and, frankly it sounds like a fantastic idea!
4. I am not surprised you all played it in G. It was a very Irish session wasn't it?
You really can draw the fun out of a room can't you?!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Or that; nice rhythm:
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/window/media/page/0,,3022199-6194707,00.html
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
No need for your particular brand of telling me, from your boundless expertise and intellect, that it is more popular in Scotland as if I simply have no clue one way or another. You just come off as patronizing.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
ow are you even possibly p*ssed off with me from this thread. Grow up!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
"You really can draw the fun out of a room can't you?!"
Tell me how that is supposed to be taken in a not-insulting way?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I don't suppose he means an ability to attentuate and accentuate the general ambience, does he?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
What I want from a guitar backup is encouragment to others ,enhancement to the tune and help to keep everyone together.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Not fair - this was a nice friendly thread where I was having a grand old time making people either chuckle or wonder if I was serious or not - or better still not knowing where I was serious and where I was slightly less so.
Can we have that back please?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Oh and to answer the original question. I have a Taylor 414ce guitar with Rosewood back and sides and a sprice top. I play with .60mm Dunlop "Riffs" plectrums and I mostly strum. I also play chords that involve lots of bass runs.
I love the bouzouki cross-picking sound but don't seem to employ it much on the guitar.
I must play muted as I have a callus the size of a marble on the bottom left hand side of my right hand just above my wrist from where it comes in constant contact with the sharp point at the edge of the saddle.
I find my guitar, not being the biggest-bodied can be relatively quiet in comparison to some, but with a new set of strings the volume is greatly increased.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Sure no cause, just apologise for your uncalled for comment and Im sure things will get back to where you want them to be. I did think it was a quite objectionable thing to say and im not surprised SS was offended.
Sorry, back to guitar.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Perhaps neither of us covered each other in glory in that exchange and perhaps we have both sorted it out off-board (where it should be sorted out) so perhaps there is no need to discuss it any more.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
forget all that nonsence _ CGCGCD
so there
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
You are as predictable as me in these discussions lisaniska!
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Do you know what key it was originally written in? I suspect G, if it was written by a flute player, as those big G rolls down to the bottom D cran is very flutey.
I thought Jim Ward's was written by a banjo player....Jim Ward of the Kilfenora Ceili Band-here's the man himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkChjAW0E0E&feature=channel_page
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by shanty
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
I like the tune in G. There's a big G chord that you can play in DADGAD by putting your thumb over the lowest D on the 5th fret and covering the high A and D with your middle, also on the 5th fret, muting the low A. This chord BOOMS! and then followed by an open D just makes such a nice bold framework for the A part of the tune.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by shanty
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
bill harte's is another floater. I think from D to A. I always name keys wrong, but i can live with that, up or down a string if you are a banjo/mandolin/fiddle player.
I like it on the lower string, but recently I hear it more often on the higher.
Dinkies is another I prefer in D to A. I first thread it and learned it years ago in D which I greatly prefer. But I think A was the original key, and certainly I hear it in A more fequent now that it seems to have become commonly played in the circles I move in. I ahdn't played it for a long time, but if I start it, I'll start it in D. (Mutter mutter, crappy bright featureless A).
- Chris
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Did Solas dictate what they wanted from a guitar back up to John Doyle?
No.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Micheál
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Micheal
How do you know how Solas runs? How musical arrangements are made? Are you a member?
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
Ok - banjo player then. My mistake.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What sound do you want from a guitar backup?
How about the sound of another pint being poured.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by dogmageek