I am practising these at the moment in all types of tunes but I seem to be missing some very simple shake/twist or whatever to get it flying. Now my question is this:
What are the basic movements to get a solid bowed triplet on 1. up/down/up bow? and 2. down/up/down bow?
First off, bowed triplet is a bit of a misnomer. In music theory a triplet is three notes of equal value in the place of two. In contrast, a treble (or shiver or shake or whatever they're called this week) is two short notes followed by a long.
Exactly how short and how long will vary by player, style and the placement phrase in the tune (jig, reel, etc, down beat or back beat). Either up bow or down the technique is basically the same. Attack the 1st note with sufficient pressure for the desired scratchyness with a immediate release of the pressure. Some claim the movement comes from the wrist, some use the entire forearm from the elbow. What's correct is what works for you but mind the rythym! That's the only thing that is really important.
From what I've seen/heard (which, I know, is just my personal observation, so please contradict me if you think I'm wrong) the majority does d u d. Some do it u d u and some do it both ways. I started d u d, later on also tried u d u but find it hard, so I'll stick with d u d.
Message: see what works best for you but take d u d as a starting point.
Easier to show than tell. The secret is a lot of pressure at the start to get as much scratch as you wish. Kevin Burke in his instructional video suggests you think about tightening a light bulb to get the feel of wrist rotation to put the pressure on. Then start, release the pressure and bounce the other notes.
One way to practice it is to play something like AE(3EEE) with whatever bowing suits the direction for the treble (the (3EEE)). It seems easier to do the first finger first, then add the others and the open strings.
It takes a while to get it right. It is also very easy to rush the rhythm coming out of the treble, so once you have it somewhat be sure to pay attention to the timeing.
'Wristy' sounds fine to me. You'll need that for the higher speeds. On the other side of the spectre I learnt to bow triplets in hornpipes with no wrist movement at all (learnt that from Christian Lemaître). This gives three clear notes instead of the scratchy sound. See it as a variation you can use at lower speed tunes.
I try to generate the movement as close to the bow as possible - not at the shoulder, elbow or forearm, but at the wrist, or even better, with a movement of the thumb and fingers (a technique Brian Conway espouses).
There's a wealth of information here from past discussions, so I'd advise doing a search. Keep an eye out for explanations and tips from Will Harmon -- they're the best!
I have been (am always) working on this too. I think the challenge is mental, as much as physical. It seems to work better for me when I don't think about it too much.
If I try to do a treble deliberately, "looking" for when to start it, it is often mis-timed, or not scratchy enough. So I find myself "looking beyond" the treble, as if it had already happened, so that it just slips into the right place, of its own accord--when I'm not looking.
I know that sounds hippy-trippy, but it does seem to be helping me. YMMV.
Here's a synopsis of the tips I've posted over the years. Hope it helps:
Bowed Triplets
1. Most people play bowed triplets down-up-down. Some people do them up-down-up, and some can go either way.
2. Contrary to how percussive it can sound, the triplet comes from a very light, relaxed, tiny hiccup of the one or two fingers (index, mostly) controlling the bow. Yes, it takes a relaxed wrist, but the key to getting the quickness of the three notes is in reducing the motion to a light flick of the stick where the index-middle fingers lay over the stick above the tip of the thumb. In other words, the wrist and forearm really aren't involved--that's too big a motion to get it light and tight.
3. In the beginning, it helps to play a definite, deliberate set-up bow stroke before the triplet. If you're doing down-up-down triplets, start with a longer than average up bow. Let the bow and fingers dangle loosely from your wrist. In the nanosecond before the first down stroke, the middle joint of your index finger lightens up, so it looks and feels like the triplet begins with a slight upward motion of that index finger. You can approximate this motion by putting your hand face down on a table top, just the heel of your hand and the fingertips touching the table. Now lift your index tip just a hair off the table, and then tap it down twice, as quick as you can. The rest of the hand stays relaxed and motionless. That's all the movement you need to get a bowed triplet.
4. Expect this to take years of refining to get it to sound they way you want, consistently.
5. Strive to play all three notes clean and distinct. You can very the amount of 'tkkch' you get by leaning on or easing off the bow--pressing the hair into the string, or not. That's up to you, and most fiddlers vary it depending on their mood and what the tune seems to want. But do learn to sound each note of the triplet cleanly and clearly. Breathe space into the triplets, creating pockets of time between each note. Eventually, you'll want to be able to finger (with your left hand) two or three separate pitches as you bow the triplet.
6. Find a role model. It helps a huge amount to see and hear what's happening, in person, from someone whose triplets are brilliant. Even after 15 years of playing triplets, I made a quantum leap after seeing a top-tier player's bow hand close up at a session.
7. Don't give up. It takes time and repetition. And it's worth it in the long run. I woodshedded for years on triplets with one little piece of tune: |: Bd d/d/d Bd d/d/d :| where the Bd is played on an up bow, and the triplet d/d/d is played down-up-down. I think it helps to put the triplet into context like this. Another good one, to gain control of the triplet on an open string (which tends to feel a bit bouncier) is - |: FA A/A/A BA A/A/A :| played down on F; up on A; d-u-d on the triplet; and slur from the down bow ending the triplet into a continued down bow on the next B; then up on A; d-u-d on the triplet; repeat.
8. Once you have the general motion going, try thinking of the triplet as all-one-thing. Instead of thinking, "Go down, up, down," just think of the "t-t-k" sound and *do* it. But leave part of your mind's ear to listen for three distinct notes.
9. Play tunes that fairly beg for bowed triplets—Maid of Mount Cisco, Crossing the Minch, Gravel Walks to Granie, Silver Spear, etc.
Heh, this question comes up now and again--as it should. So I saved the above post on my hard drive so I can recycle it as needed. I'm sure others can add good ideas and tips, too.
No doubt... I look forward to more on this regularly recycled point of importance... I do wish there were a category list for all that accumulates in the discussions. The search feature doesn't quite manage to satisfy that need... Some of those earlier relevants should be linked here...
I think that more important than how, is where. Or to be more specific, in what space. If you start by making use of where a good banjo player will play them, you will have covered a lot of ground.
But there can be a lot more too it than that. The really snappy ones, too fast for a banjo, can attack really odd places. Like, for example, where a flute player might take a breath, they might punctuate the start of their next phrase with a very short snappy roll. You can do this on the fiddle, lift the bow off the strings for a snatched breath of a rest, and come back in with the same fast roll, right on the beat ... or, you could do a crunchy treble instead.
Explore where you hear them. Listen to where Tommy Peoples puts 'em. Listen to where Liz Carroll puts 'em.
But be aware of the ubiquitous insistence of them on banjos and button boxes, especially on little runs. Yes, you can single bow them and sound like a banjo. But remember also to slur little runs also with one clean long bow stroke.
The length of bow required can be almost microscopic. The wondrous
thing about the Peoples triplets is how he interrupts a fairly long stroke
with the tiniest possible triplet and follows on with another long stroke.
I think sometimes it's not actually a triplet but something like a full stop.
I think what ken mentioned earlier about actual triplets being three notes of equal value in the place of two is very important. It's one of those musical language things that have been appropriated by players of this music and we all know what it means. But in confuses the hell out of people who already read music, but are new to this music. A lot of whom read this board.
My great granddad used to call them tribbles, or thribbles (there's little difference between a t and a th in a Mayo accent). And he'd say of a player he liked, "He has the thribble."
Some Peoples admirers may not have noticed that in some
tunes he doesn't use the thribbles at all. And he uses them now,
from what I've noticed, a lot less than he did thirty years ago.
THanks a million guys, good thread very helpful and I can continue on my fight with my fiddle that is some instrument to learn and get to know...but definitely an experience!
Bowed triplets and how?
Bowed triplets and how?
I am practising these at the moment in all types of tunes but I seem to be missing some very simple shake/twist or whatever to get it flying. Now my question is this:
What are the basic movements to get a solid bowed triplet on 1. up/down/up bow? and 2. down/up/down bow?
Thank you for all contributions
Regards
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Shylock
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
First off, bowed triplet is a bit of a misnomer. In music theory a triplet is three notes of equal value in the place of two. In contrast, a treble (or shiver or shake or whatever they're called this week) is two short notes followed by a long.
Exactly how short and how long will vary by player, style and the placement phrase in the tune (jig, reel, etc, down beat or back beat). Either up bow or down the technique is basically the same. Attack the 1st note with sufficient pressure for the desired scratchyness with a immediate release of the pressure. Some claim the movement comes from the wrist, some use the entire forearm from the elbow. What's correct is what works for you but mind the rythym! That's the only thing that is really important.
Cheers,
Ken
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by RogueFiddler
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
From what I've seen/heard (which, I know, is just my personal observation, so please contradict me if you think I'm wrong) the majority does d u d. Some do it u d u and some do it both ways. I started d u d, later on also tried u d u but find it hard, so I'll stick with d u d.
Message: see what works best for you but take d u d as a starting point.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Henk,
How the hell are ye?
I got that dud but is it a sort of wristy movement or is it a clear movement like the rest or something in-between?
Regards
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Shylock
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Ken and Henk have it right.
Easier to show than tell. The secret is a lot of pressure at the start to get as much scratch as you wish. Kevin Burke in his instructional video suggests you think about tightening a light bulb to get the feel of wrist rotation to put the pressure on. Then start, release the pressure and bounce the other notes.
One way to practice it is to play something like AE(3EEE) with whatever bowing suits the direction for the treble (the (3EEE)). It seems easier to do the first finger first, then add the others and the open strings.
It takes a while to get it right. It is also very easy to rush the rhythm coming out of the treble, so once you have it somewhat be sure to pay attention to the timeing.
All the best.
Dan
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by curamach
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Thanks, I'm fine.
'Wristy' sounds fine to me. You'll need that for the higher speeds. On the other side of the spectre I learnt to bow triplets in hornpipes with no wrist movement at all (learnt that from Christian Lemaître). This gives three clear notes instead of the scratchy sound. See it as a variation you can use at lower speed tunes.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
I try to generate the movement as close to the bow as possible - not at the shoulder, elbow or forearm, but at the wrist, or even better, with a movement of the thumb and fingers (a technique Brian Conway espouses).
There's a wealth of information here from past discussions, so I'd advise doing a search. Keep an eye out for explanations and tips from Will Harmon -- they're the best!
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
I have been (am always) working on this too. I think the challenge is mental, as much as physical. It seems to work better for me when I don't think about it too much.
If I try to do a treble deliberately, "looking" for when to start it, it is often mis-timed, or not scratchy enough. So I find myself "looking beyond" the treble, as if it had already happened, so that it just slips into the right place, of its own accord--when I'm not looking.
I know that sounds hippy-trippy, but it does seem to be helping me. YMMV.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Here's a synopsis of the tips I've posted over the years. Hope it helps:
Bowed Triplets
1. Most people play bowed triplets down-up-down. Some people do them up-down-up, and some can go either way.
2. Contrary to how percussive it can sound, the triplet comes from a very light, relaxed, tiny hiccup of the one or two fingers (index, mostly) controlling the bow. Yes, it takes a relaxed wrist, but the key to getting the quickness of the three notes is in reducing the motion to a light flick of the stick where the index-middle fingers lay over the stick above the tip of the thumb. In other words, the wrist and forearm really aren't involved--that's too big a motion to get it light and tight.
3. In the beginning, it helps to play a definite, deliberate set-up bow stroke before the triplet. If you're doing down-up-down triplets, start with a longer than average up bow. Let the bow and fingers dangle loosely from your wrist. In the nanosecond before the first down stroke, the middle joint of your index finger lightens up, so it looks and feels like the triplet begins with a slight upward motion of that index finger. You can approximate this motion by putting your hand face down on a table top, just the heel of your hand and the fingertips touching the table. Now lift your index tip just a hair off the table, and then tap it down twice, as quick as you can. The rest of the hand stays relaxed and motionless. That's all the movement you need to get a bowed triplet.
4. Expect this to take years of refining to get it to sound they way you want, consistently.
5. Strive to play all three notes clean and distinct. You can very the amount of 'tkkch' you get by leaning on or easing off the bow--pressing the hair into the string, or not. That's up to you, and most fiddlers vary it depending on their mood and what the tune seems to want. But do learn to sound each note of the triplet cleanly and clearly. Breathe space into the triplets, creating pockets of time between each note. Eventually, you'll want to be able to finger (with your left hand) two or three separate pitches as you bow the triplet.
6. Find a role model. It helps a huge amount to see and hear what's happening, in person, from someone whose triplets are brilliant. Even after 15 years of playing triplets, I made a quantum leap after seeing a top-tier player's bow hand close up at a session.
7. Don't give up. It takes time and repetition. And it's worth it in the long run. I woodshedded for years on triplets with one little piece of tune: |: Bd d/d/d Bd d/d/d :| where the Bd is played on an up bow, and the triplet d/d/d is played down-up-down. I think it helps to put the triplet into context like this. Another good one, to gain control of the triplet on an open string (which tends to feel a bit bouncier) is - |: FA A/A/A BA A/A/A :| played down on F; up on A; d-u-d on the triplet; and slur from the down bow ending the triplet into a continued down bow on the next B; then up on A; d-u-d on the triplet; repeat.
8. Once you have the general motion going, try thinking of the triplet as all-one-thing. Instead of thinking, "Go down, up, down," just think of the "t-t-k" sound and *do* it. But leave part of your mind's ear to listen for three distinct notes.
9. Play tunes that fairly beg for bowed triplets—Maid of Mount Cisco, Crossing the Minch, Gravel Walks to Granie, Silver Spear, etc.
Good luck!
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Damn, I was just thinking, where's WIll, and et voila! You have not disappointed...
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Heh, this question comes up now and again--as it should. So I saved the above post on my hard drive so I can recycle it as needed. I'm sure others can add good ideas and tips, too.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
No doubt... I look forward to more on this regularly recycled point of importance... I do wish there were a category list for all that accumulates in the discussions. The search feature doesn't quite manage to satisfy that need... Some of those earlier relevants should be linked here...
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Bowed triplets and how? ~ past threads, & Shylock & will
Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
# Posted on July 26th 2001 by will harmon
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/39
The less bow the better?
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Henk Bos
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/576
cuts and bowed triplets
# Posted on June 25th 2004 by reedy grins
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3891
"Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
# Posted on March 7th 2005 by Kevin Rietmann
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6022
Trouble with triplets
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by kennedy
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12076
Triplets on Betsy
# Posted on May 13th 2007 by Shylock
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13702
Learning Scratch Triplets on the Fiddle
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by FiddleCrazy
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17726
(&) Here are some (other) relevant threads (courtesy of will harmon):
bowing ornamentation question
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by ariesfiddler
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4190
partial bowed triplet
# Posted on September 1st 2004 by russellrapport
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4385
(Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by berserker
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4823
Trouble with triplets.
# Posted on January 11th 2006 by Penfold
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8870
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by ceolachan
Just to keep the connection ~ not stop new extrapolations of description and exploration...
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
I think that more important than how, is where. Or to be more specific, in what space. If you start by making use of where a good banjo player will play them, you will have covered a lot of ground.
But there can be a lot more too it than that. The really snappy ones, too fast for a banjo, can attack really odd places. Like, for example, where a flute player might take a breath, they might punctuate the start of their next phrase with a very short snappy roll. You can do this on the fiddle, lift the bow off the strings for a snatched breath of a rest, and come back in with the same fast roll, right on the beat ... or, you could do a crunchy treble instead.
Explore where you hear them. Listen to where Tommy Peoples puts 'em. Listen to where Liz Carroll puts 'em.
But be aware of the ubiquitous insistence of them on banjos and button boxes, especially on little runs. Yes, you can single bow them and sound like a banjo. But remember also to slur little runs also with one clean long bow stroke.
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
The length of bow required can be almost microscopic. The wondrous
thing about the Peoples triplets is how he interrupts a fairly long stroke
with the tiniest possible triplet and follows on with another long stroke.
I think sometimes it's not actually a triplet but something like a full stop.
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by Hup
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
The Scottish fiddler Chris Stout does a tiny spicatto stroke to get his
crunchy triplets. Saw it close up. (look it up on google)
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by Hup
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
I think what ken mentioned earlier about actual triplets being three notes of equal value in the place of two is very important. It's one of those musical language things that have been appropriated by players of this music and we all know what it means. But in confuses the hell out of people who already read music, but are new to this music. A lot of whom read this board.
My great granddad used to call them tribbles, or thribbles (there's little difference between a t and a th in a Mayo accent). And he'd say of a player he liked, "He has the thribble."
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Some Peoples admirers may not have noticed that in some
tunes he doesn't use the thribbles at all. And he uses them now,
from what I've noticed, a lot less than he did thirty years ago.
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by Hup
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
Yes. Also, his playing is immeasurably better than it was thirty years ago. It's great to hear someone at the top of their game getting even better.
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Bowed triplets and how?
THanks a million guys, good thread very helpful and I can continue on my fight with my fiddle that is some instrument to learn and get to know...but definitely an experience!
Thanks again
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by Shylock