Does anyone know the history of bodhran playing in ITM. Sean O’Riada is usually given credit for introducing it in the 50’s but Tom Morrison had one backing his flute on early recordings from 20’s, which I think are fantastic, by the way. Dave Fallon, age 70, played it on the first Chieftains recording. I doubt that he just picked it up at age 70 and start beating on it. I’ve also read that it could’ve come, in the form of the tambourine, and along with, the banjo, from America during the 1850’s minstrel era. Can anyone shed some light?
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
WTF'S WTF A's-hole. You being a dick on purpose or by accident? Irish dance music....Irish folk music...Funny how a few people on this site are actually interesting and helpful but most are dck- heads.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Yeah, I'll be checking back to the comhaltas site to get the rest of the story! It's nice to read something scholarly and in depth in an age when everything is so short and stooopid with lots of opinion and very little content. Thank you again.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
scholarly and in depth in an age when everything is so short and stooopid with lots of opinion and very little content. Thank you again..
I read this link about goats arse banging..its a contrived load of ballix..
Shanty why so abusive..good luck exploring the intricacies of the goats arse..should come naturally to an arse hole
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Trucks- why do you say it's a contrived load? People played bodhrans in the twenties. I'm asking what the tradition is. Is Tom Morrison et al an anomaly? No one else played it until the 50's? Make a point, contribute. I don't think I stated anything as a fact . Just askin' a question. And I'm really only rude to rude assholes because I have a low tolerence for rudeness
"The few white characters in minstrelsy were stereotypes of immigrant groups like the Irish and Germans. Irish characters first appeared in the 1840s, portrayed as hotheaded, odious drunkards who spoke in a thick brogue. This portrayal was a reaction to both the Irish's Catholicness and their willingness to work for cheap wages, which frightened non-Irish workers.[79] However, beginning in the 1850s, many Irishmen joined minstrelsy, and Irish theatergoers probably came to represent a significant part of the audience, so this negative image was muted."
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I have a low tolerence for rudeness..
then lead by example..
I dont care enough about this topic enough to humour you.Your writing style gives me the impression you have been taking amphetamine..so I guarantee any calculated response on my part would have you climbing the walls..probably of your padded cell..
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
yet I do..but not enough to care..
and im glad you thought my put down was clever, certainly more cerebral than you being abusive to someone who contributes a whole lot more than yourself..with an attitude like that someones going to give you a nasty hiding one day
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Trucks-I didn't think your put down was very clever. In reality I just said that so you would go and drink at another spot in the bar. Chears mate! But please...If you can inform a lowly amphetamine whore on the history of bodhran use in Irish Trad, I'll surely buy you a drink.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Trucks-abusive to someone who contributes a whole lot more than yourself
I Don't really have a lot to contribute-I wouldn't presume to know a lot about Irish music- That's why I asked a QUESTION instead of making a STATEMENT. And the response from you and thistle day is part of the reason I don't ask more questions or contribute more, and believe that, largely, this is a complete waste of time.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
maybe if you abusivness hadnt set the tone I may have taken you seriously..Having Played the Bodhran for about ten years I would have maybe even of had a relavant contribution for you..Even these sentences are more than you would appear to merit..
Sorry if I got you feeling like a victim..You confirm your own status by being so reactionary..chill
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Then again, all ancient cultures share the frame drum. There's the old alleged connection between the frame for sifting grain with animal skin stretched over it instead.
A tambourine of any size and a bodhran are both frame drums, it's a broad category.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
A victim? I'm not playing the victim. I'm just looking for some insite into the tradition of bodhran playing in Irish dance music. There's been almost twenty posts on this thread, other than mine, with only two or three pertaining to my original question. Am i crying? No but I am wondering why I'm doing this....and by the way the first person to be rude on this thread was certainly not me....
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
like I said....a complete waste of time.....Oh and is giving me a 'nasty hiding' a threat, Trucks? I'm sorry I can't tell....it sounds kinda funny to me. Oh please mister, please don't give me a nast nasty hiding....pretty please....I'll do anything. I just want the nice hiding....I promise to never mention the bodhran again ever ever ever ever.....certainly don't want a...nasty hiding esp. from someone on an internet chat site about Irish folk music.....It's too funny!!! see ya!
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
you dont need me to tell you about bodhrans..That ionnas farily seems fairly aquainted/opinionted on the topic..I imagine ther is not much he doesnt know or at least have an opinion on..even better ask Llig..
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
i suggested your attitude was condusive to getting a hiding..ie abusive for no real reason..
But it seems you are actually a woman..which in heidsight makes sense..You wouldnt get a hiding..I would just come home really late from work as often as possible
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
BTW the frame drum didn't have to go all the way to America to get to Ireland... (gorilla sound) Unless it happened in Gandawanaland .... And just on the side: I think you 2 deserve an award for the most vicious thread yet. Even a little racism! Go you!
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
This thread may not be about bodhran bashing, but it certainly became a bashing thread. shanty and Trucks need to calm down (and Trucks, with your recent adventures, do you feel that you have the moral high ground from which you can lecture shanty on his behavior?).
Perhaps Thistle Day's use of the term WTF was seen as incendiary, but I think his point was that the use of the term ITM is probably more recent than the use of the bodhran, and probably a bit too narrow for the topic at hand.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Is WTF more or less offensive that ITM?
You have to remember that one rarely gives offence. It is more often than not merely received. It's not offensive in the least to say that you can't play tunes on the bodhran (except Stevie Wonder tunes, of course), but many do take offence at it.
I take offence every time I see the ludicrous abbreviation ITM. The one that annoys me most about it is that you'd never say "Irish Traditional Music" in normal speech, you'd say "Traditional Irish Music". But, of course, You're not allowed to call it TIM.
And others take offence when it's called "diddley".
Taking offence is really stupid. Stop in everyone. (myself included)
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Has anyone else noticed anything odd about the Denis Murphy et al clip posted above ?
The music carries on regardless, but the camera is cut from one position to another; there is no sign of another camera, a microphone anywhere, etc., the music carries on, but the point of view is constantly changing.
Does anyone have an explanation of how this was done with '50s' film technology ?
Anyone ever see Broadcast News ?
And that guy is definitely playing a large Tambourine, with no idea of how to damp it.
I'm not convinced re the explanations in the Comhaltas article either, but I'll let that be.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Are you saying that, historically, the bodrhan was the stagnant water of the music. breeding grounds for insignificant little insects that suck your blood? No offence like.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Shame on you all, for not taking this question seriously!
So here's a serious reply Shanty:
I was under the impression that the travelling Salvation Army bands, of the late 1800s onwards, had a lot to do with the introduction of the Tambourine in Ireland.
Which was why so many early Bodhrans still had bells or rattles around the rim.
The reason they got larger & larger, was of course because Bodhran players have always insisted on being louder than all the other instruments around them!
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
That Wiki pic of the Minstrel blokes...
Bodhran, fiddle, banjo, bones...
could be any ITM-
or is it: diddley-
or maybe TIM- (yuck!)
or perhaps: contempory acoustic music generally considered to be accurately derived from and in the tradition of that originating from the culture of the Atlantic island called Ireland-
session!
(Apart, of course, from the view out of the window, the trousers and the sheet music the banjo player appears to be reading- the banjo player in most sessions I would gauge as the most unlikely one of all to have dots!- the hats, chairs and floorboards seem accurate)
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Excuse me for being on topic here, but I remember Tommy Hayes talking about the bodhran as a war drum that was beaten to deafen the enemy - hence its relationship to "bodhar" and a word for "death curtain."
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
after readin that little bit you wrote henry the hippo, it may have been possible that when the thing was first introduced that the word 'bodhran' was actually in reference to the person playing it, maybe the other musicians taking the p i s s out of them. maybe over time this term was so widely synonomous with them that the words eventually transferred itself onto the "instrument".
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Fedorastain-"you 2 deserve an award for the most vicious thread yet. Even a little racism! Go you.."
try again..O you mean when I used the term "nigger"..I see.. did u go on to read the part about propagating an oppressive racial stereotype? obviously not prone to subtle irony.. Nigger is a vile term..Lets be clear, with so many howdy doody Americans posting on this site,i felt it only fair to use a phrase that they would be familliar with/ indeed invented. especially in the context of performing minstrels or gollywogs. But yeh this thread was fairly pointless
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I am sorry that it turned into such a nasty thread. It wasn’t the intention. I’m interested in ethnomusicology particularly pertaining to 19th century America. The mixing of African culture and the Irish immigrant culture created, among other things, modern tap dancing. Blacks in America played jigs and reels but I don’t think anyone recorded what they played (via dots or any other medium). Minstrel songs are, for the most part, an ugly parody but some black performers were able to rise above the ugliness and racial restrictions of the time. William Lane, who performed as Master Juba, danced in England and, I believe, Ireland also. Contrary to what some people on this site think, most Americans aren’t hate mongers. I think our president is certainly proof of that.The story of Black America, I think, is one of the greatest in history. It’s a story of tragedy and triumph, in the face of great adversity, in which human dignity shines through despite massive oppression. Sorry…I digress…. Again I was just wondering about the use of it in Ireland. Seems the musical history of Ireland usually goes up to O’Carolan in the 18th century and then picks back up with O’Riada in 1950.
Thanks to the people who contributed to the discussion
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I'm assuming you meant to say, "written" musical history of Ireland usually goes up to O’Carolan in the 18th century and then picks back up with O’Riada in 1950.
The aural bit, the important bit, the explosion of the creation of the majority of the tunes and the ways of playing them is well documented in our collective memories. And of no interest to bodhran players, of course.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Shanty! I knew blacks in 19th Century America played reels but I didn't know they played jigs. The black fiddling style had long been abandoned by the blacks and carried on into the 20th century by whites, who have turned it into their own thing. Blacks in America were always innovative with whatever music they learned, and I'm curious to know what one would have done with a jig. Of course some black fiddlers exist today, and ones that play Irish music, but the ethnic identity of blackness is claimed more by Jazz and Hip Hop etc. Not a lot of black fiddlers today which is sad in a way cause they were a creative lot. I play fiddle because I was inspired by a black fiddler named Eddie White, but Kevin Burke inspired me to play Irish music. What about the style of the way the bodhran is played? That way of swinging the stick and hitting with the other end to get a triplet is genius and I think it is worth knowing who came up with it.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
fedorastain--
‘The legacy of black influence on early old time string music is considerable. African Americans turned the Anglo/Celtic reels into hoedowns…caused jigs, hornpipes, clogs and other old world dance tunes to evolve into breakdowns that became the signature of southern old time fiddle music.’-from Play of a Fiddle by Gerald Milnes.
The book is about 'old timey' music, but goes into great detail about the mixing of styles between ex slaves and po white folk( many of whom were recent Irish immigrants) in them thar hills of West (by God )Virginia.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I should have said "destructive and powerful is the hand of Bode Drun, that creator of our deafening noise orb wot dismantle mystic slavery. His nemesis in the east Bou Raighn of the empire of doom has ruled from the heart of darkness in a language only heard by musical slaves as sexually deviant torture and thunderously idiotic romance of his genus."
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
fedorastain--
‘The legacy of black influence on early old time string music is considerable. African Americans turned the Anglo/Celtic reels into hoedowns…caused jigs, hornpipes, clogs and other old world dance tunes to evolve into breakdowns that became the signature of southern old time fiddle music.’-from Play of a Fiddle by Gerald Milnes.'
The book is about 'old timey' music, but goes into great detail about the mixing of styles between ex slaves and po white folk ( many of whom were recent Irish immigrants) in them thar hills of West (by God )Virginia
So, it is the Niggars fault???!!!
Shesh!!!
" I should have said "destructive and powerful is the hand of Bode Drun, that creator of our deafening noise orb wot dismantle mystic slavery. His nemesis in the east Bou Raighn of the empire of doom has ruled from the heart of darkness in a language only heard by musical slaves as sexually deviant torture and thunderously idiotic romance of his genus."
Please pray we don't find each other some day when we meet face to face and I demand that you explain your racist fecked up remarks .
You sound exactly like the English in describing Irish. So now we have someone else to blame for being the Niggars instead of just Micks???!!!
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"The aural bit, ..... . And of no interest to bodhran players, of course." Sorry Llig, but joking aside, you can't really tar all Bodhran players with the same brush.
For example, the late Ian Robinson, a Bodhran player, was a fine musician. He had a great ear & knew all the tunes really well, in fact I vividly remember him teaching me the tune, 'The Irish Giant' by simply lilting it to me, very accurately too.
So, just as you can't possibly hope to be able to play a tune well until you really know it, on a melody instrument, I don't believe you can possibly hope to make any sort of a decent fist at accompanying a tune either, unless you know it inside out.
Here's another example. One of the most knowledgeable people in Ulster, if not Ireland, on the Traditional Songs of Ulster & Ireland, is one John Moulden .... a Bodhran player!
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Well I think to play good music you must have good rhythm and the bodhran is at the heart of rhythm in Irish music.
"Please pray we don't find each other some day when we meet face to face and I demand that you explain your racist fecked up remarks"
Sorry I didn't know I was a racist... I don't identify as one. I've wasted too much time explaining myself, I think I will now play music with my friends...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Wow what a horrible thread. The last couple of posts caught my eye:
"Well I think to play good music you must have good rhythm and the bodhran is at the heart of rhythm in Irish music."
Sorry fedorastain (and nothing personal) but that sounds like the kind of throwaway meaningless soundbite some PR person comes up with for a "celtic music festival".
It is patent nonesense.
The bodhran is NOT as the heart of rhythm in Irish music. If you remove the heart from something, it stops beating. Countless fiddles, flutes etc etc have beat along quite happily without a bodhran.
That isn't to say that they should not be accorded any place at all. But to put them at the heart of the matter is to grossly inflate their importance. Perusion is at best a decorative frill that can be applied to the shirt of Irish trad music. Though a tasteful frill can look rather nice in the correct circumstances (think 1980s new romantic or 1970s glam rock if we can extend the visual/clothing metaphor that far )
The only exception to this is drums in a ceili band. Which is at the heart of the matter and does set the rythm. But then that is an altogether different discussion.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I got the "heart" of Irish music from Gino Lupari's rap ages ago....
Reminds me of Ali talking to the doctor, saying he wanted his heartbeat to be more interesting. No, I wouldn't follow the beat of the bodhran, but I would often also ignore someone who joined in and tried to change my rhythm IF I started the tune. I would do that anywhere, performing, session or noodling.
Anyway what is music? Sound. Sound is vibration. Vibration is rhythm. The sky is blue, and so is your shirt.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
And why it seems to mirror the triplet infested reels and jigs. Now I know the bodhran wasn't used much until fairly recently, but the music in the form it is in today is fairly new too. So what came first? The melodic ornament, or the rhythmic frill? Pipes or Drums?
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
>Ha! yes sorry percussion, I'm an air head... Still curious about >the origins of the tipper technique though
And here I thought you were being funny.
That's my tip for the day. If you say or post something in all seriousness and everyone laughs and slaps you on the back. Pretend you meant it as a joke. Pretty soon you'll have a reputation as witty.
According to the diaries of Edward Heron-Allen (or should that be the Papers of Christopher Blayre) that is exactly how Oscar Wilde's carear was launched.
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"So what came first? The melodic ornament, or the rhythmic frill? Pipes or Drums?"
Fedorastain, I'm pretty sure the Highland Bagpipes were played for many, many, many years, before the British Army got their hands on them & insisted that each group of Pipers HAD to be accompanied by a Barrage of Battering Bongos!
Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Does anyone know the history of bodhran playing in ITM. Sean O’Riada is usually given credit for introducing it in the 50’s but Tom Morrison had one backing his flute on early recordings from 20’s, which I think are fantastic, by the way. Dave Fallon, age 70, played it on the first Chieftains recording. I doubt that he just picked it up at age 70 and start beating on it. I’ve also read that it could’ve come, in the form of the tambourine, and along with, the banjo, from America during the 1850’s minstrel era. Can anyone shed some light?
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Certainly can.
http://comhaltas.ie/music/treoir/detail/bodhran_its_origin_meaning_and_history/
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Thank you so much Ionnas! I appreciate it!
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
WTF's ITM for starters?
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
WTF'S WTF A's-hole. You being a dick on purpose or by accident? Irish dance music....Irish folk music...Funny how a few people on this site are actually interesting and helpful but most are dck- heads.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Your welcome shanty. Its good to spread the word and set the record straight .
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Yeah, I'll be checking back to the comhaltas site to get the rest of the story! It's nice to read something scholarly and in depth in an age when everything is so short and stooopid with lots of opinion and very little content. Thank you again.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
scholarly and in depth in an age when everything is so short and stooopid with lots of opinion and very little content. Thank you again..
I read this link about goats arse banging..its a contrived load of ballix..
Shanty why so abusive..good luck exploring the intricacies of the goats arse..should come naturally to an arse hole
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Trucks- why do you say it's a contrived load? People played bodhrans in the twenties. I'm asking what the tradition is. Is Tom Morrison et al an anomaly? No one else played it until the 50's? Make a point, contribute. I don't think I stated anything as a fact . Just askin' a question. And I'm really only rude to rude assholes because I have a low tolerence for rudeness
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
A minstrel show:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Virginia_Minstrels%2C_1843.jpg
See what the guy on the left has got? Look like a bodhran with jangles?
Irish Americans were central to the minstrel show.
See what this guy is tormenting Denis Murphy with?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iuXCsD5jis
A bodhran with jangles.
More on Irish America and the Minstrel Show:
"The few white characters in minstrelsy were stereotypes of immigrant groups like the Irish and Germans. Irish characters first appeared in the 1840s, portrayed as hotheaded, odious drunkards who spoke in a thick brogue. This portrayal was a reaction to both the Irish's Catholicness and their willingness to work for cheap wages, which frightened non-Irish workers.[79] However, beginning in the 1850s, many Irishmen joined minstrelsy, and Irish theatergoers probably came to represent a significant part of the audience, so this negative image was muted."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show#Characters
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I have a low tolerence for rudeness..
then lead by example..
I dont care enough about this topic enough to humour you.Your writing style gives me the impression you have been taking amphetamine..so I guarantee any calculated response on my part would have you climbing the walls..probably of your padded cell..
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Or, more likely, you don't know much about it --but it's more fun to pretend that you do and write 'clever' put downs.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
yet I do..but not enough to care..
and im glad you thought my put down was clever, certainly more cerebral than you being abusive to someone who contributes a whole lot more than yourself..with an attitude like that someones going to give you a nasty hiding one day
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
SWFL- That's some picture(!) and it sure does look like a bodhran with jangles. Any Idea how they were played in American minstrel shows?
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Irish people dressed up as (niggers) and ran about propagating an oppressive racial stereotype..
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Much like the stereotype you are superimposing on the Bodhran playing community
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
as you grasp at contrived Liniage
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Whilst obviously High
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Trucks-I didn't think your put down was very clever. In reality I just said that so you would go and drink at another spot in the bar. Chears mate! But please...If you can inform a lowly amphetamine whore on the history of bodhran use in Irish Trad, I'll surely buy you a drink.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
that would be, to quote yourself..
a complete waste of time....
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
its a drum..get over it
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
can you tell me the history of when people started tapping their feet..no..your percussional query falls into this catagory
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
That's beautiful e-verse, Trucks! It's just history though.
The point being that at the most recent, the Irish must have brought this jangly bodhran thing back to Ireland from America along with the banjo.
shanty, no idea how they played them. With a drum head that big it'd be a waste not to whack it.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
with scissors
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Trucks-abusive to someone who contributes a whole lot more than yourself
I Don't really have a lot to contribute-I wouldn't presume to know a lot about Irish music- That's why I asked a QUESTION instead of making a STATEMENT. And the response from you and thistle day is part of the reason I don't ask more questions or contribute more, and believe that, largely, this is a complete waste of time.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
what do you want from me..calm yourself..
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
maybe if you abusivness hadnt set the tone I may have taken you seriously..Having Played the Bodhran for about ten years I would have maybe even of had a relavant contribution for you..Even these sentences are more than you would appear to merit..
Sorry if I got you feeling like a victim..You confirm your own status by being so reactionary..chill
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Then again, all ancient cultures share the frame drum. There's the old alleged connection between the frame for sifting grain with animal skin stretched over it instead.
A tambourine of any size and a bodhran are both frame drums, it's a broad category.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
...and that'd be at the least recent, I'd guess. Here's that wiki thing again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_drum
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
...and I'm out on this one too, enjoy.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I think he/she is frustrated and has retired to count his/her beaters
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"...proto-Indo-European..." from the Comhaltas link, and then the 'bodhar' breakdown reminds me of this:
http://www.cafepress.com/ITMGoodies/5323240
Reverend, do I get a comish? Should I give people a coupon code?
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
A victim? I'm not playing the victim. I'm just looking for some insite into the tradition of bodhran playing in Irish dance music. There's been almost twenty posts on this thread, other than mine, with only two or three pertaining to my original question. Am i crying? No but I am wondering why I'm doing this....and by the way the first person to be rude on this thread was certainly not me....
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
like I said....a complete waste of time.....Oh and is giving me a 'nasty hiding' a threat, Trucks? I'm sorry I can't tell....it sounds kinda funny to me. Oh please mister, please don't give me a nast nasty hiding....pretty please....I'll do anything. I just want the nice hiding....I promise to never mention the bodhran again ever ever ever ever.....certainly don't want a...nasty hiding esp. from someone on an internet chat site about Irish folk music.....It's too funny!!! see ya!
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
you dont need me to tell you about bodhrans..That ionnas farily seems fairly aquainted/opinionted on the topic..I imagine ther is not much he doesnt know or at least have an opinion on..even better ask Llig..
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
i suggested your attitude was condusive to getting a hiding..ie abusive for no real reason..
But it seems you are actually a woman..which in heidsight makes sense..You wouldnt get a hiding..I would just come home really late from work as often as possible
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
heindsight*
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
BTW the frame drum didn't have to go all the way to America to get to Ireland... (gorilla sound) Unless it happened in Gandawanaland .... And just on the side: I think you 2 deserve an award for the most vicious thread yet. Even a little racism! Go you!
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Rule Number One
Any mention of the word Bodhran in the title of a thread requires, nae demands, nonsence.
Rule Number One/II
Any specific request for seriousness on the subject is mere pishing in the wind.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
This thread may not be about bodhran bashing, but it certainly became a bashing thread. shanty and Trucks need to calm down (and Trucks, with your recent adventures, do you feel that you have the moral high ground from which you can lecture shanty on his behavior?).
Perhaps Thistle Day's use of the term WTF was seen as incendiary, but I think his point was that the use of the term ITM is probably more recent than the use of the bodhran, and probably a bit too narrow for the topic at hand.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Is WTF more or less offensive that ITM?
You have to remember that one rarely gives offence. It is more often than not merely received. It's not offensive in the least to say that you can't play tunes on the bodhran (except Stevie Wonder tunes, of course), but many do take offence at it.
I take offence every time I see the ludicrous abbreviation ITM. The one that annoys me most about it is that you'd never say "Irish Traditional Music" in normal speech, you'd say "Traditional Irish Music". But, of course, You're not allowed to call it TIM.
And others take offence when it's called "diddley".
Taking offence is really stupid. Stop in everyone. (myself included)
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Has anyone else noticed anything odd about the Denis Murphy et al clip posted above ?
The music carries on regardless, but the camera is cut from one position to another; there is no sign of another camera, a microphone anywhere, etc., the music carries on, but the point of view is constantly changing.
Does anyone have an explanation of how this was done with '50s' film technology ?
Anyone ever see Broadcast News ?
And that guy is definitely playing a large Tambourine, with no idea of how to damp it.
I'm not convinced re the explanations in the Comhaltas article either, but I'll let that be.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I had to laugh reading that Comhaltas article. In it, it says the word bodhrán derives from the word bodhar which means deaf in Irish!
The irony of this is further compounded by the following
"it also carries the meanings bothered, confused, annoyed, troubled, numb, deadness of sound, and unclearness or stagnancy of water."
Is it a coincidence that the word 'bodhrán' has origins in these meanings!!!!
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by The Tune Composer
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Are you saying that, historically, the bodrhan was the stagnant water of the music. breeding grounds for insignificant little insects that suck your blood? No offence like.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Shame on you all, for not taking this question seriously!
So here's a serious reply Shanty:
I was under the impression that the travelling Salvation Army bands, of the late 1800s onwards, had a lot to do with the introduction of the Tambourine in Ireland.
Which was why so many early Bodhrans still had bells or rattles around the rim.
The reason they got larger & larger, was of course because Bodhran players have always insisted on being louder than all the other instruments around them!
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
That Wiki pic of the Minstrel blokes...
Bodhran, fiddle, banjo, bones...
could be any ITM-
or is it: diddley-
or maybe TIM- (yuck!)
or perhaps: contempory acoustic music generally considered to be accurately derived from and in the tradition of that originating from the culture of the Atlantic island called Ireland-
session!
(Apart, of course, from the view out of the window, the trousers and the sheet music the banjo player appears to be reading- the banjo player in most sessions I would gauge as the most unlikely one of all to have dots!- the hats, chairs and floorboards seem accurate)
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Here's an early shot of the Spice Girls ...... before they changed their image:
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3364916.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=5C1929E78F851DD203BB416C36160326A55A1E4F32AD3138
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
not a bodhrán bashing thread = this will turn into a bodhrán bashing thread
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by munya beor
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
er ... duh
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
ah llig, i just read your first post and I really must apologise for repeating what you had to say
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by munya beor
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Excuse me for being on topic here, but I remember Tommy Hayes talking about the bodhran as a war drum that was beaten to deafen the enemy - hence its relationship to "bodhar" and a word for "death curtain."
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Micheál
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"was beaten to deafen the enemy"
that group Barrage then should get one of those.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Shanty, I posted a thread a while back entitled:
"1st Bodhran was a Tambourine!"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15515
Couple of interesting photos on that thread, too.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
after readin that little bit you wrote henry the hippo, it may have been possible that when the thing was first introduced that the word 'bodhran' was actually in reference to the person playing it, maybe the other musicians taking the p i s s out of them. maybe over time this term was so widely synonomous with them that the words eventually transferred itself onto the "instrument".
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Hey Mr. tambourine/bodhran/frame drum man, sing a song for me...
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Fedorastain-"you 2 deserve an award for the most vicious thread yet. Even a little racism! Go you.."
try again..O you mean when I used the term "nigger"..I see.. did u go on to read the part about propagating an oppressive racial stereotype? obviously not prone to subtle irony.. Nigger is a vile term..Lets be clear, with so many howdy doody Americans posting on this site,i felt it only fair to use a phrase that they would be familliar with/ indeed invented. especially in the context of performing minstrels or gollywogs. But yeh this thread was fairly pointless
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"howdy doody Americans" - LOL.
First we're Plastic Paddys, now we're Hoody Doodians.
Wow, what a week.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I'm not sure it was Americans who invented that term. It goes back quite a long way in history.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
The gauntlet was thrown down to bodhran bashers in the title. Not that I agree at all with the bodhran bashers.
However, I am wondering how a neutral discussion on this website is possible given its long history of bodhran bashing.
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by Micheál
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
It's Howdy Doody Time!
Here's a little internet science for y'all that's quite applicable to this thread:
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/c9/Theory.jpg
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Here's one for all ye pirates!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m11zeM8EKwA&feature=related
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I am sorry that it turned into such a nasty thread. It wasn’t the intention. I’m interested in ethnomusicology particularly pertaining to 19th century America. The mixing of African culture and the Irish immigrant culture created, among other things, modern tap dancing. Blacks in America played jigs and reels but I don’t think anyone recorded what they played (via dots or any other medium). Minstrel songs are, for the most part, an ugly parody but some black performers were able to rise above the ugliness and racial restrictions of the time. William Lane, who performed as Master Juba, danced in England and, I believe, Ireland also. Contrary to what some people on this site think, most Americans aren’t hate mongers. I think our president is certainly proof of that.The story of Black America, I think, is one of the greatest in history. It’s a story of tragedy and triumph, in the face of great adversity, in which human dignity shines through despite massive oppression. Sorry…I digress…. Again I was just wondering about the use of it in Ireland. Seems the musical history of Ireland usually goes up to O’Carolan in the 18th century and then picks back up with O’Riada in 1950.
Thanks to the people who contributed to the discussion
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I'm assuming you meant to say, "written" musical history of Ireland usually goes up to O’Carolan in the 18th century and then picks back up with O’Riada in 1950.
The aural bit, the important bit, the explosion of the creation of the majority of the tunes and the ways of playing them is well documented in our collective memories. And of no interest to bodhran players, of course.
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Shanty! I knew blacks in 19th Century America played reels but I didn't know they played jigs. The black fiddling style had long been abandoned by the blacks and carried on into the 20th century by whites, who have turned it into their own thing. Blacks in America were always innovative with whatever music they learned, and I'm curious to know what one would have done with a jig. Of course some black fiddlers exist today, and ones that play Irish music, but the ethnic identity of blackness is claimed more by Jazz and Hip Hop etc. Not a lot of black fiddlers today which is sad in a way cause they were a creative lot. I play fiddle because I was inspired by a black fiddler named Eddie White, but Kevin Burke inspired me to play Irish music. What about the style of the way the bodhran is played? That way of swinging the stick and hitting with the other end to get a triplet is genius and I think it is worth knowing who came up with it.
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
fedorastain--
‘The legacy of black influence on early old time string music is considerable. African Americans turned the Anglo/Celtic reels into hoedowns…caused jigs, hornpipes, clogs and other old world dance tunes to evolve into breakdowns that became the signature of southern old time fiddle music.’-from Play of a Fiddle by Gerald Milnes.
The book is about 'old timey' music, but goes into great detail about the mixing of styles between ex slaves and po white folk( many of whom were recent Irish immigrants) in them thar hills of West (by God )Virginia.
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Hands up anyone who reckons the word genius is overused?
"That way of swinging the stick and hitting with the other end to get a triplet is genius"
# Posted on May 10th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I should have said "destructive and powerful is the hand of Bode Drun, that creator of our deafening noise orb wot dismantle mystic slavery. His nemesis in the east Bou Raighn of the empire of doom has ruled from the heart of darkness in a language only heard by musical slaves as sexually deviant torture and thunderously idiotic romance of his genus."
# Posted on May 10th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
fedorastain--
‘The legacy of black influence on early old time string music is considerable. African Americans turned the Anglo/Celtic reels into hoedowns…caused jigs, hornpipes, clogs and other old world dance tunes to evolve into breakdowns that became the signature of southern old time fiddle music.’-from Play of a Fiddle by Gerald Milnes.'
The book is about 'old timey' music, but goes into great detail about the mixing of styles between ex slaves and po white folk ( many of whom were recent Irish immigrants) in them thar hills of West (by God )Virginia
So, it is the Niggars fault???!!!
Shesh!!!
" I should have said "destructive and powerful is the hand of Bode Drun, that creator of our deafening noise orb wot dismantle mystic slavery. His nemesis in the east Bou Raighn of the empire of doom has ruled from the heart of darkness in a language only heard by musical slaves as sexually deviant torture and thunderously idiotic romance of his genus."
Please pray we don't find each other some day when we meet face to face and I demand that you explain your racist fecked up remarks .
You sound exactly like the English in describing Irish. So now we have someone else to blame for being the Niggars instead of just Micks???!!!
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by Micheál
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Michael....Who and what are you talking about? I thought I was done with the idiots 50 posts ago....
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by shanty
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
You talkin to me? Or the one with the accent?
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"The aural bit, ..... . And of no interest to bodhran players, of course." Sorry Llig, but joking aside, you can't really tar all Bodhran players with the same brush.
For example, the late Ian Robinson, a Bodhran player, was a fine musician. He had a great ear & knew all the tunes really well, in fact I vividly remember him teaching me the tune, 'The Irish Giant' by simply lilting it to me, very accurately too.
So, just as you can't possibly hope to be able to play a tune well until you really know it, on a melody instrument, I don't believe you can possibly hope to make any sort of a decent fist at accompanying a tune either, unless you know it inside out.
Here's another example. One of the most knowledgeable people in Ulster, if not Ireland, on the Traditional Songs of Ulster & Ireland, is one John Moulden .... a Bodhran player!
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Well I think to play good music you must have good rhythm and the bodhran is at the heart of rhythm in Irish music.
"Please pray we don't find each other some day when we meet face to face and I demand that you explain your racist fecked up remarks"
Sorry I didn't know I was a racist... I don't identify as one. I've wasted too much time explaining myself, I think I will now play music with my friends...
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"Well I think to play good music you must have good rhythm and the bodhran is at the heart of rhythm in Irish music."
Ah yes. Logic eh. Lets try the same sentence:
The sky is blue. Blue is the colour of my shirt. Ergo, the sky is made out of my shirt.
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by ...
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Wow what a horrible thread. The last couple of posts caught my eye:
)
"Well I think to play good music you must have good rhythm and the bodhran is at the heart of rhythm in Irish music."
Sorry fedorastain (and nothing personal) but that sounds like the kind of throwaway meaningless soundbite some PR person comes up with for a "celtic music festival".
It is patent nonesense.
The bodhran is NOT as the heart of rhythm in Irish music. If you remove the heart from something, it stops beating. Countless fiddles, flutes etc etc have beat along quite happily without a bodhran.
That isn't to say that they should not be accorded any place at all. But to put them at the heart of the matter is to grossly inflate their importance. Perusion is at best a decorative frill that can be applied to the shirt of Irish trad music. Though a tasteful frill can look rather nice in the correct circumstances (think 1980s new romantic or 1970s glam rock if we can extend the visual/clothing metaphor that far
The only exception to this is drums in a ceili band. Which is at the heart of the matter and does set the rythm. But then that is an altogether different discussion.
got to run -c hris
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
I got the "heart" of Irish music from Gino Lupari's rap ages ago....
Reminds me of Ali talking to the doctor, saying he wanted his heartbeat to be more interesting. No, I wouldn't follow the beat of the bodhran, but I would often also ignore someone who joined in and tried to change my rhythm IF I started the tune. I would do that anywhere, performing, session or noodling.
Anyway what is music? Sound. Sound is vibration. Vibration is rhythm. The sky is blue, and so is your shirt.
What is a Perusion?
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
A person from Peru
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Ha! yes sorry percussion, I'm an air head... Still curious about the origins of the tipper technique though.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
And why it seems to mirror the triplet infested reels and jigs. Now I know the bodhran wasn't used much until fairly recently, but the music in the form it is in today is fairly new too. So what came first? The melodic ornament, or the rhythmic frill? Pipes or Drums?
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
>Ha! yes sorry percussion, I'm an air head... Still curious about >the origins of the tipper technique though
And here I thought you were being funny.
That's my tip for the day. If you say or post something in all seriousness and everyone laughs and slaps you on the back. Pretend you meant it as a joke. Pretty soon you'll have a reputation as witty.
According to the diaries of Edward Heron-Allen (or should that be the Papers of Christopher Blayre) that is exactly how Oscar Wilde's carear was launched.
- chris
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
Career.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
"So what came first? The melodic ornament, or the rhythmic frill? Pipes or Drums?"
Fedorastain, I'm pretty sure the Highland Bagpipes were played for many, many, many years, before the British Army got their hands on them & insisted that each group of Pipers HAD to be accompanied by a Barrage of Battering Bongos!
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Not a bodhran bashing thread- a history question
So is Oil of olay a useful lotion for my dead goats, or should I tan their hides with my greek sauce?
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by fedorastain