If I could, I'd love to be able to play in different temperaments, Playing a bit of baroque, I get confronted to such things as mesotonic temperaments, of which there are quite a few : Werkmeister, Kirchbergen (1, 2 or 3 : both proposed many different), and it does sound better... but then, playing fixed-note instruments, the easiest is the equal temperament... and in a session, it's also the most convenient (as long as everybody's tuned to the same notes...) : if you want to play an unequal temperament, you have to decide which one beforehand.... no time in a session... but if you play fiddle or pipes. or even flute, you can "alter" your temperament... boxes, guitars and the like will have problems doing that, I guess (actually, Cajun melodeons are not tuned equally... but they're one-row boxes, with one key, even if they play in other keys on the same box...)
oh, and with boxes : the wetness was used in France. apart from getting the instrument quite loud, to allow the players to play with cabrettes (french bagpipes), which are defintely not tuned in a equal temperament. the vibrato given by the wetness got them to sound in tune...
Most pipes are not in EQ,they are designed to harmonically interact with the drones . I use perfect 5th when tuning the fiddle, so that puts EQ out of the window! The whistle, I presume is also not in EQ , Irish[wooden flute] ? Early last century, even though tuners thought they were tuning pianos to EQ ,they infact were using a form of just. Now we have electronic tuners calibrated to EQ this has defined the commercial music of our age.
Joel obviously doesnt realise that the pipes sound sh*te if they are tuned [out of tune] to EQ. The Harmonic interrelations form an essential aspect of the instrument. Its not 18th C Joel, its the 21st.
Diatonic harmonicas are a pain (yes, I know...) in that they come in at least three different fine-tunings. Hohner Golden Melodies, Lee Oskars and all the Suzuki ones (I think all of them anyway) are in equal temperament. Tombo and Suzuki tremolos too, as far as I know. Hohner Echo harps are in an intermediate tuning which in theory makes chords sound sweeter, though how you can really achieve this when for each note played there are two reeds sounding that are slightly out of tune with each other I don't know... All the other Hohner diatonics such as Special 20s and XB40s are also in a tuning "intermediate" between equal and Just intonation. To my ear, which is probably a lot to do with what modern cheapie tuners do to other instruments, several notes sound distressingly out of tune in the mix when you're playing out-of-the-box SP20s (for example), though this is far less apparent when you're listening back to recordings. So I fine-tune all my harmoncas, if necessary, to equal temperament, aware all the time that this in itself is a big compromise. I don't use chords anyway, so that consideration is low priority for me. As far as I know, at the moment the only diatonic harp in Just intonation is the Hering Vintage 1923, though I am completely ignorant as to what the resurgent Seydel are doing these days.
All this is just more proof that the voice will always be the superior instrument, even when producing multiple tones like they manage in nose singing in Mongolia, or keaning...
That's true, ceol ! if you can "manage" the temperament of your instrument, the tendency is to go towards natural- or pythagorician - temperament, which is based on the series of harmonics (like in mongolian diphonic singing)... but then, you get that big acoustic problem : 12 fifths do not sum up to 7 otcaves... and if you have to change keys, you get some awesome surprises... I guess you could say "don't change keys"...
As long as we are all in spitting distance of the right pitch, I am happy. All this temperment stuff reminds me of 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' discussions.
Beautifully well done troll, I'd say. Frankly, once you introduce a set of pipes, a whistle, and an accordion, if you can pick out the difference between just and ET, then you should go and have a few drinks until either you can't hear or stop caring.
Nikita ~ thanks! You're a mate... That was better than bicarbonate of soda at easing my dis-ease after foolishly clicking on another U-Tube vid someone offered up here today ~ a certain cutesy Chieftain vid with manic dancing. That made me wince and twisted my guts. Your link helped ground me, good medicine, if not for everyone... I loved it, and the chuckles worth of it...
Now I can return to the realms of the Doherty clan...
There is a lot of difference between Just and EQ and only people with cloth ears would not notice "something odd" going on if both were in use simultaneously. Why do you think so many people for so many centuries, many greater than all of us, have agonised so much about it?
All right, Steve and everyone, I admit there is something to the argument, even a hack like me can hear it, although I have not encountered it very often. Around these parts, fixed pitch has pretty much won the hearts and minds of the musicians, so we don't discuss it or worry about it much.
This argument goes on all the time in the Scottish piping world as well.
All these people claiming that the Scottish pipes play in an "ancient non-Western scale" or a "Middle Eastern scale" or whatever rubbish.
They simply play in Just Intonation, which was outlined by Pythagoras, which is as Western as you can get.
Acapella vocalists and brass ensembles and the like also use Just Intonation as to do otherwise would mean creating beats.
There's no mystery to it: the actual numbers are well known.
note= how many cents the Just interval is from ET
tonic= 0
Major 2nd= +4
Major 3rd= -14
4th= -2
5th= +2
Major 6th= -16
Major 7th= -12
minor 7th= +18 (5-limit Just)
minor 7th= -32 (Blues, Partch's 43...this is the one used by Scottish pipers)
So as you see, tuning the 5ths on the fiddle is only 2 cents different ET/JI.
The biggest differences are in the 3rd, 6th, and 7th.
It's why the C# on Irish flutes, whistles, and uilleann pipes is usually a tad flat.
People always claim that the uilleann pipes are tuned Just but in fact the B is almost never at the Just -16 position. Listen to pipers: if their B was that flat it would clash whenever they played along with guitars or whatever.
Uilleann pipes do have their 3rd, their F#, tuned Just, and this note will often sound a tad flat against guitars etc. But to have this note tuned ET would mean that it would clash against the drones.
That's why pipers of pretty much all traditions, Spanish, Bulgarian, Irish, Scottish, etc, tune their chanters Just, as it is Just tuning which allows each note to blend with the drones.
I should have mentioned that "playing in tune" is a thing of context.
So my Scottish chanter is precisely tuned to Just Intonation so that every note will ring beatless with the powerful drones.
But my uilleann chanter is tuned to Equal Temperament, because I play in a group with a guitar. Both the fiddler and I choose to play in tune with it rather than fight it.
"That's why pipers of pretty much all traditions, Spanish, Bulgarian, Irish, Scottish, etc, tune their chanters Just, as it is Just tuning which allows each note to blend with the drones."
Also, in Galician piping there is a tradition of playing in 2 or 3 voice harmonies, to complicate things even further.
This table http://www.arrakis.es/~jpresedo/afinacion.htm#Tabla%203 shows the intervals in just intonation (first column), equal tempered (second) and the average of twelve chanters of different ages and makers. The average is mostly a temperated scale but the major third matches the one in just intonation. They think that the 12 cents or so that the higher notes are above the tempered scale are due to the fact that they were playing without drones.
Having pipers playing in harmony does not complicate things, as long as they are sticking to 3rds, which traditional Spanish and Scottish piping tend to do.
If you do the math you'll see that it usually works out.
For example the Major 6th is -16 and the 4th is -2.
Therefore playing the 4th and the Major 6th together results in a Major 3rd with an interval of -14, which is precisely the Just Intonation Major 3rd.
What's odd is how intervals which shouldn't work actually sound fine.
For example, it shouldn't sound good to play the 2nd with the Major 6th. Since the 2nd is raised and the 6th is lowered the resulting 5th is far too narrow; but this interval is used all the time by Scottish pipe bands and it rings true (presumably because both notes ring perfectly with the drones).
About charts which purport to quantify the scales of antique chanters, be aware that sticking a random modern reed in an old chanter only tells you what a random modern reed in an old chanter sounds like. It most emphatically does NOT tell you how that chanter sounded when it was new, with the proper reed, in the hands of an expert player of the time.
Bagpipe chanters play the scale which the performer intends, and we shouldn't forget that.
ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Playing whistle and melodeon, I have to love the one I'm with!
(P.S. - Which is it?!..)
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by nicholas
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
I personally don't care, so long as everyone is in tune...
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Let's go back to the 18th Century. Will that make you happy? No Internet or recordings in those days . .
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by McDermott
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
If I could, I'd love to be able to play in different temperaments, Playing a bit of baroque, I get confronted to such things as mesotonic temperaments, of which there are quite a few : Werkmeister, Kirchbergen (1, 2 or 3 : both proposed many different), and it does sound better... but then, playing fixed-note instruments, the easiest is the equal temperament... and in a session, it's also the most convenient (as long as everybody's tuned to the same notes...) : if you want to play an unequal temperament, you have to decide which one beforehand.... no time in a session... but if you play fiddle or pipes. or even flute, you can "alter" your temperament... boxes, guitars and the like will have problems doing that, I guess (actually, Cajun melodeons are not tuned equally... but they're one-row boxes, with one key, even if they play in other keys on the same box...)
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Nikita Pfister
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
oh, and with boxes : the wetness was used in France. apart from getting the instrument quite loud, to allow the players to play with cabrettes (french bagpipes), which are defintely not tuned in a equal temperament. the vibrato given by the wetness got them to sound in tune...
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Nikita Pfister
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Most pipes are not in EQ,they are designed to harmonically interact with the drones . I use perfect 5th when tuning the fiddle, so that puts EQ out of the window! The whistle, I presume is also not in EQ , Irish[wooden flute] ? Early last century, even though tuners thought they were tuning pianos to EQ ,they infact were using a form of just. Now we have electronic tuners calibrated to EQ this has defined the commercial music of our age.
Joel obviously doesnt realise that the pipes sound sh*te if they are tuned [out of tune] to EQ. The Harmonic interrelations form an essential aspect of the instrument. Its not 18th C Joel, its the 21st.
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Just ~
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Diatonic harmonicas are a pain (yes, I know...) in that they come in at least three different fine-tunings. Hohner Golden Melodies, Lee Oskars and all the Suzuki ones (I think all of them anyway) are in equal temperament. Tombo and Suzuki tremolos too, as far as I know. Hohner Echo harps are in an intermediate tuning which in theory makes chords sound sweeter, though how you can really achieve this when for each note played there are two reeds sounding that are slightly out of tune with each other I don't know... All the other Hohner diatonics such as Special 20s and XB40s are also in a tuning "intermediate" between equal and Just intonation. To my ear, which is probably a lot to do with what modern cheapie tuners do to other instruments, several notes sound distressingly out of tune in the mix when you're playing out-of-the-box SP20s (for example), though this is far less apparent when you're listening back to recordings. So I fine-tune all my harmoncas, if necessary, to equal temperament, aware all the time that this in itself is a big compromise. I don't use chords anyway, so that consideration is low priority for me. As far as I know, at the moment the only diatonic harp in Just intonation is the Hering Vintage 1923, though I am completely ignorant as to what the resurgent Seydel are doing these days.
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
All this is just more proof that the voice will always be the superior instrument, even when producing multiple tones like they manage in nose singing in Mongolia, or keaning...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
Where the mind and voice go naturally is never equal temperament...
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
That's true, ceol ! if you can "manage" the temperament of your instrument, the tendency is to go towards natural- or pythagorician - temperament, which is based on the series of harmonics (like in mongolian diphonic singing)... but then, you get that big acoustic problem : 12 fifths do not sum up to 7 otcaves... and if you have to change keys, you get some awesome surprises... I guess you could say "don't change keys"...
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Nikita Pfister
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
octaves, of course.... my pc keyboard has temperament...
and if you like harmonic singing, here's an interesting example, not Mongolian :
http://www.undernet.ch/cgi-bin/videodrome/videodrome1.cgi?key=0000047
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Nikita Pfister
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
As long as we are all in spitting distance of the right pitch, I am happy. All this temperment stuff reminds me of 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' discussions.
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
I think "temperament" "just intonation"etc does get used as an excuse sometimes for playing that isn't actually "in tune" by any system.
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by TomB-R
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Really? you think anyone who understand the finer points of tuning cant actually tune accurately? Do you use an electronic tuner by any chance Tom ?
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Beautifully well done troll, I'd say. Frankly, once you introduce a set of pipes, a whistle, and an accordion, if you can pick out the difference between just and ET, then you should go and have a few drinks until either you can't hear or stop caring.
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Calum
Paléo Festival, Club Tent, 28 juillet 2000 ~
Nikita ~ thanks! You're a mate... That was better than bicarbonate of soda at easing my dis-ease after foolishly clicking on another U-Tube vid someone offered up here today ~ a certain cutesy Chieftain vid with manic dancing. That made me wince and twisted my guts. Your link helped ground me, good medicine, if not for everyone... I loved it, and the chuckles worth of it...
Now I can return to the realms of the Doherty clan...
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Calum, the difference between EQ and Just is as obvious as in tune or out, Its not rocket science. Any good fiddlers and piper can do the same .
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
There is a lot of difference between Just and EQ and only people with cloth ears would not notice "something odd" going on if both were in use simultaneously. Why do you think so many people for so many centuries, many greater than all of us, have agonised so much about it?
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
See this essay from violinist Lara St. John on intonation.
http://larastjohn.com/essays/intonation.php
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
And this one on flute.
http://traverso.baroqueflute.com/samples/TRAV101.pdf
(was linked to in one of many an earlier discussions)
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by David50
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
All right, Steve and everyone, I admit there is something to the argument, even a hack like me can hear it, although I have not encountered it very often. Around these parts, fixed pitch has pretty much won the hearts and minds of the musicians, so we don't discuss it or worry about it much.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
This argument goes on all the time in the Scottish piping world as well.
All these people claiming that the Scottish pipes play in an "ancient non-Western scale" or a "Middle Eastern scale" or whatever rubbish.
They simply play in Just Intonation, which was outlined by Pythagoras, which is as Western as you can get.
Acapella vocalists and brass ensembles and the like also use Just Intonation as to do otherwise would mean creating beats.
There's no mystery to it: the actual numbers are well known.
note= how many cents the Just interval is from ET
tonic= 0
Major 2nd= +4
Major 3rd= -14
4th= -2
5th= +2
Major 6th= -16
Major 7th= -12
minor 7th= +18 (5-limit Just)
minor 7th= -32 (Blues, Partch's 43...this is the one used by Scottish pipers)
So as you see, tuning the 5ths on the fiddle is only 2 cents different ET/JI.
The biggest differences are in the 3rd, 6th, and 7th.
It's why the C# on Irish flutes, whistles, and uilleann pipes is usually a tad flat.
People always claim that the uilleann pipes are tuned Just but in fact the B is almost never at the Just -16 position. Listen to pipers: if their B was that flat it would clash whenever they played along with guitars or whatever.
Uilleann pipes do have their 3rd, their F#, tuned Just, and this note will often sound a tad flat against guitars etc. But to have this note tuned ET would mean that it would clash against the drones.
That's why pipers of pretty much all traditions, Spanish, Bulgarian, Irish, Scottish, etc, tune their chanters Just, as it is Just tuning which allows each note to blend with the drones.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
I should have mentioned that "playing in tune" is a thing of context.
So my Scottish chanter is precisely tuned to Just Intonation so that every note will ring beatless with the powerful drones.
But my uilleann chanter is tuned to Equal Temperament, because I play in a group with a guitar. Both the fiddler and I choose to play in tune with it rather than fight it.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
"That's why pipers of pretty much all traditions, Spanish, Bulgarian, Irish, Scottish, etc, tune their chanters Just, as it is Just tuning which allows each note to blend with the drones."
Also, in Galician piping there is a tradition of playing in 2 or 3 voice harmonies, to complicate things even further.
Years ago, three Galician pipers wrote a paper on this subject:
http://www.arrakis.es/~jpresedo/afinacion.htm (in Spanish)
This table http://www.arrakis.es/~jpresedo/afinacion.htm#Tabla%203 shows the intervals in just intonation (first column), equal tempered (second) and the average of twelve chanters of different ages and makers. The average is mostly a temperated scale but the major third matches the one in just intonation. They think that the 12 cents or so that the higher notes are above the tempered scale are due to the fact that they were playing without drones.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: ITM and Mean and Equal Temperament
Having pipers playing in harmony does not complicate things, as long as they are sticking to 3rds, which traditional Spanish and Scottish piping tend to do.
If you do the math you'll see that it usually works out.
For example the Major 6th is -16 and the 4th is -2.
Therefore playing the 4th and the Major 6th together results in a Major 3rd with an interval of -14, which is precisely the Just Intonation Major 3rd.
What's odd is how intervals which shouldn't work actually sound fine.
For example, it shouldn't sound good to play the 2nd with the Major 6th. Since the 2nd is raised and the 6th is lowered the resulting 5th is far too narrow; but this interval is used all the time by Scottish pipe bands and it rings true (presumably because both notes ring perfectly with the drones).
About charts which purport to quantify the scales of antique chanters, be aware that sticking a random modern reed in an old chanter only tells you what a random modern reed in an old chanter sounds like. It most emphatically does NOT tell you how that chanter sounded when it was new, with the proper reed, in the hands of an expert player of the time.
Bagpipe chanters play the scale which the performer intends, and we shouldn't forget that.
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by Richard D Cook