The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
A while back Will Harmon alluded to the idea that how you entered into and came out of a note [and I'm guessing also musical phrases, or groups of notes] was important.
Exact quote was: "One of the more important things to listen for in your own playing is how you start and end each note. The idea is to vary this, the way you would with inflecting syllables when you talk."
Could any of the more senior players on this board offer some more insight on this? And if you could maybe even use an example from a common tune that might be even better [if applicable] like, say, Out on the Ocean or some such.
I take it this is related to our ongoing disucssion vis a vis articulation and the like? Is a matter of soft or hard, or slurring or perhaps making, say, a note pop/ come to the fore vs not, etc? thanks.
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Hey Mike. I am senior only in chronological age. But since I am trying to figure that one out also, I'll throw something out.
I think that's the 'zen' of the Music, and the difference between what is played vs. the way music if written (out of deference to Ilig) looks with the 'spots'. My teacher John keeps reminding me about the importance of pick-up, he calls them, "opportunities". They include the things we know like stops, cuts, slides, slurs etc...but he is a major proponent of 'Silence' as a link-with a crisp rentry into the phrasing.
Then there is the pulse. 'Rashers and Bacon', 'Alligator, alligator' etc. Playing the box, that is the magic in the bellows technique that must be mastered to make things sound right. Sometimes I get it right. Sometimes, sadly more than I want, it sounds flat or like c**p.
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
thanks Zipp.I know one big bugbear with traditional music teachers is especially how one leaves an ornament and begins the next note....often badly with apprentice players. Well, maybe not badly so much as sloppily or we get careless because we're concentrating so much on that triple or roll we mess up the timing with the following note/phrase, etc.
-michael
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
I'm not a fiddler, but I have been going to school on Tommy People's "Waiting for a Call" album for this very concept. I'm really enjoying the remarkable amount variation he creates on phrases. Each pass seems like a new idea, even on the third time through. It also feels completely spontaneous, like the expressive ideas are popping into his head as the tune rolls off his fingers. Good stuff, and in my opinion, a relevant example to what your are searching for mtodd.
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
If you like "Waiting for a Call", you should listen to "The Quiet Glen". Or the "High Part of The Road". Or "The Iron Man". I think "The Quiet Glen" is my favourite Tommy album though.
The variation and "new ideas" you speak of should be what you're looking to achieve, in my opinion. Keeps things fresh and interesting, and it's an indication of the tune coming "from within", rather than learned by rote.
I have to admit, I'm not exactly sure to what Will was referring, but I suspect ye might be right in the comments so far. I will watch this thread with interest.
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
So will I, absolutely. Just can't help you with words; it would be nice if we could meet and show each other the various possibilities and discuss them. But I won't even start to try it with words, there are people here that are better to it!
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Henk is spot on, Mike. I wish I could sit with you and play a few tunes. It's hard for me to break it down technically, probably because I don't think about it technically, using words, it's all sounds, eh?
Here's how these things usually go:
mtodd: X? Wither x?
SWFL: Well, I dunno, you hear the x and then you just play the x, you know, I er, uh...
Will: ...the index finger....the ring finger...then, the bow hand...a side of fries...finally, take the hypotenuse of the triangle...
SWFL the next time he tries to x: '...um, triangle fries? Rings? There's a ring finger in my fries? Wha...where'd my x go? Hey, is that a new barmaid? "X!" Aha, my x!'
...but that's just my brain, your results WILL vary, I'm sure!
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
thanks all...good points. If only we had sound lantern to illustrate our ideas. Oh well. Yes, that's the damnable part about only having words and cyberspace..it's hard to explain just what "getting into" and "out of" notes/phrases means...or it's hard for me to exactly concpetualize what someone means...I have hunches, but I could be all wrong. Mostly I am about this music so far it seems! ;)
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Kevin Burke goes into 'some say the devil is dead' with a slide to the E that makes it sound great in my opinion and I heard Zoe Conway play the 2nd line of Kid on the Mountain, and suddnly she throws in loads of sound into the F# which turned the phrase around completely! I think this is what Will is talking about.
These are just two techniques that good players use at exactly the right spot and it makes the music sound great!
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Well I took it to mean the attack on each note. I spent time learning to approach each note on its own, rather than treating it as one flat sound then linked to another flat sound I try to vary the dynamics on each note. So each note I would start soft get harder then finish soft so that joining 2 notes is a natural progression and almost falls into the next. Of course this is less noticeable at speed but does have a strong effect. I definitely notice novice players who dont do this, their playing is flatter and the energy is harder/harsher, less lyrical. In a way its trying to imitate the human voice. If you listen to any good singer say these 3
;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSitqkzFrsY
you can perhaps hear what I mean?
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
I second listening to Tommy Peoples. But not just his recordings, live if you can. He is the master of phrasing. Constant invention. Captivating. Art. Creative.
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Llig et al...I'll do that...I have the Quiet Glen cd and I haven't listened to it in ages...I also have another of his whose name I've forgot... Peoples was here a few years ago and we had the joy of sitting in a room with him while he played for about an hour...it was a "workshop"...but of course we just asked him to play. It seemed absurd to ask him to teach us a tune.
[along those lines, for past two weeks I've been giving Patrick Kelly a whirl on the player on the way in and back from work...you could listen to The Foxhunter's Reel...his version anyway...for a month and still not catch all the bits and seemingly endless variations he's doing...I noted he's playing what sounds like quadruplets!? in places...and his flowing phrasing in set dance Rodney's Glory is superb]
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
...and if you can make your fiddle pulse like they do with their voices in Ionannas' clip then you're doing it right, like Tommy Peoples and his fiddle.
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Many many years ago a friend of mine was complemented, by Aly Bain ( ok, he's not Irish, but he was playing with irish musicians ) on her improvement in playing, and what was she doing about her style ? and her answer was that she was too busy trying to learn more tunes at the moment, so that she could just join in.
I may be many years older than her, and play plucked rather than bowed strings, but I still feel the same, that there are so many tunes to learn, and that some of this style and ornamentation stuff is for later, when my repertoire is a bit larger.
Or should I be thinking about both at the same time ?
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Pete...I think that the stylistic concerns are more important than building repertoire. Being able to grind your way through lots and lots of tunes without style seems to me to be kind of sad and pointless.
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
depends what instrument you play..Oramentation in terms of replacing or substituting the notes is one thing but especially when playing with a more legato structure to your music, how u start or finish a note can be implemented with very subtle finger placement. In turn the key to these ormanments is that they dont act as a stop.. If that makes sense..they flow.. Coming up from the note below, a double tap or hammering on the note below (in terms of the whistle or flute) are examples and from my experience, often hard to emulate or distinguish to the untrained hand(unless you posses innate capability)..these are the subtle techniques which are often overlooked when it comes to ornamentation especially if you dont take regular classes..Triplet also may fall into this catagory, but to a lesser extent..I only post a reply because I have encountered this recently.. I think the double tap, or hammering, is the hardest technique on the flute. It is hard to learn and hard to encorporate..The initial poster refers to slurring the note or playing soft or hard, In my mind this is more attributed to breathing techniques and although relavant, (which in terms on the flute or whistle, often where effective sticato forms are represented) I dont think in terms of the posters question these are what he/she is after.. Phrasing is key though, wonderful examples of this, showcase exaples if you want can be seen in the arrangements of Lunasa and many others like Tripswitch, solo playing such as Mc Goldrick or Mc Sherry are other great examples. But my interpretation is that ,it is what your fingers do on your intrument that provide a basis for the techniques you seem to strive towards..Seprate from phrasing or ormanments that substitute notes..Good luck
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
"One of the more important things to listen for in your own playing is how you start and end each note. The idea is to vary this, the way you would with inflecting syllables when you talk."
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
In another thread, I was pointing out nearly a dozen ways to fill the first half of the first measure of Out on the Ocean (besides the B roll that llig considers the One True Path, that is). And afterwards, it occurred to me that the last half of the measure, and the next measure, were nearly always played the exact same way by everyone I have encountered. So what makes diversity appropriate in that first snip, but not in the second snip? Is that a clue to what the heart of the tune is? It seems to me that phrasing has a lot to do with it, what notes get slurred together, and where the phrases start and end. As a New Englander, what first struck me as I learned to play Irish music was its lack of articulation, far less than what I was used to, which makes the placing and frequency and emphasis on those phrase beginnings and endings all the more important.
But I may not be expressing myself clearly--as SWFL says above, there are limits to what most of us can explain musically, it is hard to put into words...
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Ornaments are appropriate where you want to put them . Thats part of my point really, rote learning, means just copying other people, thats not the way for artistic fulfilment. I mentioned Tony MacMahon on that other thread because he is a master at ornamenting tunes in unlikely ,non-standard places. Listen to him play here say ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P26i_g_RjE4
Im a great believer in phrasing, forget ornaments for a moment, take a real simple air , say Siubhan Ni Dhuibir Ive just uploaded it as it was not here . If you play it once or twice you will have the melody, then what? its so simple. Try playing it 20 times, exploring different ways of phrasing it, elongating some notes and cutting others. Its a beautiful slow air just because its short and simple means nothing. Then after you've explored all the ways you can 'sing' it ,add some ornaments, then explore different places to put those ornaments, etc all of a sudden a simple little air can offer a whole world of exploration.If you just play it twice then move on thinking its Boring, nothing to it, then you simply dont understand Irish Music.
The dots on the page fall far short to express the depth and beauty inherant in the tune.
The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
A while back Will Harmon alluded to the idea that how you entered into and came out of a note [and I'm guessing also musical phrases, or groups of notes] was important.
Exact quote was: "One of the more important things to listen for in your own playing is how you start and end each note. The idea is to vary this, the way you would with inflecting syllables when you talk."
Could any of the more senior players on this board offer some more insight on this? And if you could maybe even use an example from a common tune that might be even better [if applicable] like, say, Out on the Ocean or some such.
I take it this is related to our ongoing disucssion vis a vis articulation and the like? Is a matter of soft or hard, or slurring or perhaps making, say, a note pop/ come to the fore vs not, etc? thanks.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Hey Mike. I am senior only in chronological age. But since I am trying to figure that one out also, I'll throw something out.
I think that's the 'zen' of the Music, and the difference between what is played vs. the way music if written (out of deference to Ilig) looks with the 'spots'. My teacher John keeps reminding me about the importance of pick-up, he calls them, "opportunities". They include the things we know like stops, cuts, slides, slurs etc...but he is a major proponent of 'Silence' as a link-with a crisp rentry into the phrasing.
Then there is the pulse. 'Rashers and Bacon', 'Alligator, alligator' etc. Playing the box, that is the magic in the bellows technique that must be mastered to make things sound right. Sometimes I get it right. Sometimes, sadly more than I want, it sounds flat or like c**p.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
thanks Zipp.I know one big bugbear with traditional music teachers is especially how one leaves an ornament and begins the next note....often badly with apprentice players. Well, maybe not badly so much as sloppily or we get careless because we're concentrating so much on that triple or roll we mess up the timing with the following note/phrase, etc.
-michael
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
I'm not a fiddler, but I have been going to school on Tommy People's "Waiting for a Call" album for this very concept. I'm really enjoying the remarkable amount variation he creates on phrases. Each pass seems like a new idea, even on the third time through. It also feels completely spontaneous, like the expressive ideas are popping into his head as the tune rolls off his fingers. Good stuff, and in my opinion, a relevant example to what your are searching for mtodd.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
If you like "Waiting for a Call", you should listen to "The Quiet Glen". Or the "High Part of The Road". Or "The Iron Man". I think "The Quiet Glen" is my favourite Tommy album though.
The variation and "new ideas" you speak of should be what you're looking to achieve, in my opinion. Keeps things fresh and interesting, and it's an indication of the tune coming "from within", rather than learned by rote.
I have to admit, I'm not exactly sure to what Will was referring, but I suspect ye might be right in the comments so far. I will watch this thread with interest.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by tradshark
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
So will I, absolutely. Just can't help you with words; it would be nice if we could meet and show each other the various possibilities and discuss them. But I won't even start to try it with words, there are people here that are better to it!
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Henk is spot on, Mike. I wish I could sit with you and play a few tunes. It's hard for me to break it down technically, probably because I don't think about it technically, using words, it's all sounds, eh?
Here's how these things usually go:
mtodd: X? Wither x?
SWFL: Well, I dunno, you hear the x and then you just play the x, you know, I er, uh...
Will: ...the index finger....the ring finger...then, the bow hand...a side of fries...finally, take the hypotenuse of the triangle...
SWFL the next time he tries to x: '...um, triangle fries? Rings? There's a ring finger in my fries? Wha...where'd my x go? Hey, is that a new barmaid? "X!" Aha, my x!'
...but that's just my brain, your results WILL vary, I'm sure!
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
thanks all...good points. If only we had sound lantern to illustrate our ideas. Oh well. Yes, that's the damnable part about only having words and cyberspace..it's hard to explain just what "getting into" and "out of" notes/phrases means...or it's hard for me to exactly concpetualize what someone means...I have hunches, but I could be all wrong. Mostly I am about this music so far it seems! ;)
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Kevin Burke goes into 'some say the devil is dead' with a slide to the E that makes it sound great in my opinion and I heard Zoe Conway play the 2nd line of Kid on the Mountain, and suddnly she throws in loads of sound into the F# which turned the phrase around completely! I think this is what Will is talking about.
These are just two techniques that good players use at exactly the right spot and it makes the music sound great!
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by Shylock
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Well I took it to mean the attack on each note. I spent time learning to approach each note on its own, rather than treating it as one flat sound then linked to another flat sound I try to vary the dynamics on each note. So each note I would start soft get harder then finish soft so that joining 2 notes is a natural progression and almost falls into the next. Of course this is less noticeable at speed but does have a strong effect. I definitely notice novice players who dont do this, their playing is flatter and the energy is harder/harsher, less lyrical. In a way its trying to imitate the human voice. If you listen to any good singer say these 3
;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSitqkzFrsY
you can perhaps hear what I mean?
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
I second listening to Tommy Peoples. But not just his recordings, live if you can. He is the master of phrasing. Constant invention. Captivating. Art. Creative.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by ...
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Llig et al...I'll do that...I have the Quiet Glen cd and I haven't listened to it in ages...I also have another of his whose name I've forgot... Peoples was here a few years ago and we had the joy of sitting in a room with him while he played for about an hour...it was a "workshop"...but of course we just asked him to play. It seemed absurd to ask him to teach us a tune.
[along those lines, for past two weeks I've been giving Patrick Kelly a whirl on the player on the way in and back from work...you could listen to The Foxhunter's Reel...his version anyway...for a month and still not catch all the bits and seemingly endless variations he's doing...I noted he's playing what sounds like quadruplets!? in places...and his flowing phrasing in set dance Rodney's Glory is superb]
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
...and if you can make your fiddle pulse like they do with their voices in Ionannas' clip then you're doing it right, like Tommy Peoples and his fiddle.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Many many years ago a friend of mine was complemented, by Aly Bain ( ok, he's not Irish, but he was playing with irish musicians ) on her improvement in playing, and what was she doing about her style ? and her answer was that she was too busy trying to learn more tunes at the moment, so that she could just join in.
I may be many years older than her, and play plucked rather than bowed strings, but I still feel the same, that there are so many tunes to learn, and that some of this style and ornamentation stuff is for later, when my repertoire is a bit larger.
Or should I be thinking about both at the same time ?
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Pete...I think that the stylistic concerns are more important than building repertoire. Being able to grind your way through lots and lots of tunes without style seems to me to be kind of sad and pointless.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by timmy!
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
depends what instrument you play..Oramentation in terms of replacing or substituting the notes is one thing but especially when playing with a more legato structure to your music, how u start or finish a note can be implemented with very subtle finger placement. In turn the key to these ormanments is that they dont act as a stop.. If that makes sense..they flow.. Coming up from the note below, a double tap or hammering on the note below (in terms of the whistle or flute) are examples and from my experience, often hard to emulate or distinguish to the untrained hand(unless you posses innate capability)..these are the subtle techniques which are often overlooked when it comes to ornamentation especially if you dont take regular classes..Triplet also may fall into this catagory, but to a lesser extent..I only post a reply because I have encountered this recently.. I think the double tap, or hammering, is the hardest technique on the flute. It is hard to learn and hard to encorporate..The initial poster refers to slurring the note or playing soft or hard, In my mind this is more attributed to breathing techniques and although relavant, (which in terms on the flute or whistle, often where effective sticato forms are represented) I dont think in terms of the posters question these are what he/she is after.. Phrasing is key though, wonderful examples of this, showcase exaples if you want can be seen in the arrangements of Lunasa and many others like Tripswitch, solo playing such as Mc Goldrick or Mc Sherry are other great examples. But my interpretation is that ,it is what your fingers do on your intrument that provide a basis for the techniques you seem to strive towards..Seprate from phrasing or ormanments that substitute notes..Good luck
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Listen to flook if you really want an example that will challenge how you view ornamentation...blow yer socks off..whoosh
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
maybe slurs do count as a fingering technique (he says whistle in hand)
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
"One of the more important things to listen for in your own playing is how you start and end each note. The idea is to vary this, the way you would with inflecting syllables when you talk."
Ok, now try that on banjo...
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
In another thread, I was pointing out nearly a dozen ways to fill the first half of the first measure of Out on the Ocean (besides the B roll that llig considers the One True Path, that is). And afterwards, it occurred to me that the last half of the measure, and the next measure, were nearly always played the exact same way by everyone I have encountered. So what makes diversity appropriate in that first snip, but not in the second snip? Is that a clue to what the heart of the tune is? It seems to me that phrasing has a lot to do with it, what notes get slurred together, and where the phrases start and end. As a New Englander, what first struck me as I learned to play Irish music was its lack of articulation, far less than what I was used to, which makes the placing and frequency and emphasis on those phrase beginnings and endings all the more important.
But I may not be expressing myself clearly--as SWFL says above, there are limits to what most of us can explain musically, it is hard to put into words...
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Al,
that's a thread I'm interested in - can you give us a link to it?
Thanks
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by swisspiper
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
Ornaments are appropriate where you want to put them . Thats part of my point really, rote learning, means just copying other people, thats not the way for artistic fulfilment. I mentioned Tony MacMahon on that other thread because he is a master at ornamenting tunes in unlikely ,non-standard places. Listen to him play here say ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P26i_g_RjE4
Im a great believer in phrasing, forget ornaments for a moment, take a real simple air , say Siubhan Ni Dhuibir Ive just uploaded it as it was not here . If you play it once or twice you will have the melody, then what? its so simple. Try playing it 20 times, exploring different ways of phrasing it, elongating some notes and cutting others. Its a beautiful slow air just because its short and simple means nothing. Then after you've explored all the ways you can 'sing' it ,add some ornaments, then explore different places to put those ornaments, etc all of a sudden a simple little air can offer a whole world of exploration.If you just play it twice then move on thinking its Boring, nothing to it, then you simply dont understand Irish Music.
The dots on the page fall far short to express the depth and beauty inherant in the tune.
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
yep
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: The in's & out's in Irish music...a little explanation?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21440
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by AlBrown