My kids are learning music in a group with a well known teacher locally. I’ve noticed that she (the teacher) is teaching the tunes with the ornamentation "built in", ie the children are learning a tune from scratch, without necessarily realsing which notes/phrases are part of the essential tune, and which notes are the turns/variations etc. This is not criticism from me, but more of a general query, Im curious, as I would intuitively have guessed that it would be better to learn the "bare bones" of a tune, get that right, and then fit in the ornamentation in afterwards.
What do you think?
I would say it all depends on what level the kids are at. If they've moved past the beginning stages, and they've done their scales and a few simple tunes (marches, waltzes, maybe a hornpipe), then I would say it's best to start teaching ornaments alongside the tunes.
When I was learning, I was just about able to get through a simple hornpipe when I switched to a new teacher. The new teacher gave me a simple jig, containing one gracenote. I learned the jig and the gracenote together, with the ornament in context. The following week I was given a reel (Anderson's IIRC) containing one roll. The teacher taught me how to do the roll on its own, then in the tune. During that week I learned the reel and the roll together.
During the years with that teacher, I learned technique, tunes, and ornaments all together. I think that method worked pretty well anyway.
I teach my students to put ornamentation into the tunes at an early stage. I think it's also helpful to point out to them the many different points in a tune at which ornaments can be played, but not to overdo it( a subjective judgement on my part). I'd also make the point that for many inexperienced students it is important for them to play the tune/s at a tempo that allows them to put ornamentation into the tune . A slower tempo with tasteful ornamentation is to my ears far more enjoyable than a faster pace with little or no ornamentation. Some years back the Clare fiddler Seamus Connolly recorded a tune called Carraigin Ruadh on his "Here and There" LP and I use it as the definitive version of an Irish tune with ornamentation, the perfect example of how to play a reel, or at least to aspire to treat tunes in such a manner. If you like the ideal balance between tune and ornamentation.
Obviously both approaches are possible. The approach you describe however can lead to individuality being subsumed to rote learning. All it needs is for these versions to be written down and pushed as 'the right way' and then deviation from this way of playing becomes 'incorrect', and we know where that can lead!
Typically a large organisation devoted to pushing 'their way' of playing, controlling competitions, where if you dont play 'by the book' you wont win a prize would be the next stage on this degeneration of the tradition.
A rote 'Clare style' or whatever where deviation from the norm becomes squashed leading to uniformity in playing. same rolls, same triplets, so that large groups can play together in a 'session' and not sound all muddy...
Oh if only I were. I am simply describing something that has already happened 100 odd yrs ago in a different tradition. Sad but true. Now with modern media this might well be avoided, but only by the performers retaining control of their own heritage and not letting bureaucrats and the like take over!
A tune should't have a fixed set of ornaments or a fixed set of notes.
But when teaching, you inevitably have to start somewhere. Variation in ornamentation will happen at the same time as variation in melody. Especially if both are encouraged.
I do wish people would get over such tautology as, "Variation in ornamentation will happen at the same time as variation in melody."
I think the nonsencical question, "Which notes/phrases are part of the essential tune, and which notes are the turns/variations etc?", probably comes from having tunes wrtitten down and having so called difinitive versions on commercial recordings. You have to embrace the fluidity of it more. Some people play with loads of twiddley bits, some with less, some with none. Most tunes sound odd to me when played without a certain roll or turn in a particular place, but then it's the skill of a good player to overcome this..
This music is full of contradiction and you have to accept things like, "This IS how it goes." and "This IS how it goes too", not "and this is another way it can go."
And respect people who say, "Oooh, I wouldn't do it that way."
And don't dismiss people who say, "Oooh, that's not the way it goes." until you've explored how qualified they are, ie, how good are they?
its hard to really get the picture of what BB is talking about. If you listen to the playing of a mature player say Bobby Casey his music is inventive, full or variety and ornamentation. It would be simply impractical to attempt to teach a 10 yr old to play like this surely. BB, are you describing more on the lines of Tradsharks experience?
This fluidity is very important. really playing with other people. Relating to what they do depends on a fluid understanding of a tune. If you have a fixed way the tune goes then when playing with another person with a likewise fixed understanding , but a different one, then there is little musical cohesion.
The flexibility to listen and relate to the general flow is essential in making good music.
I can really understand the objections to the written score in this context. A largely oral culture means that the performer is an essential part of the process and they can transmit this understanding of the music . But with the score 'nailed down' and fixed a lot of the depth can be lost.
What I want to know is how you can ornament on the spoons and shakey egg, all the while being mindful of the main drive of the melody. I lie awake at night pondering this.
I obviously expressed myself in a way Llig disagrees with, but I was certainly attempting to say the same thing. A tune is some kind of "super set" of all the ways it goes (including different ornamentation) and which excludes the ways it doesn't go.
But when teaching, it's often easier to present just one way. But that way might as well contain ornamentation as that's all part of it.
I would surmise that the different ways a tune goes is not only something one learns through listening to many people play it, but also something that one can take a guess at through knowledge of the genre. And when you start figuring that out, different melodic paths and different ornament paths are all part of the same "thing"
It's concepts like this that make it so difficult for those newer learners who need to have things black or white. "It's like this, only when it's like that, and sometimes it's like this, but it's never like that."
It really takes understanding, subtlelty and an appreciation of shades of grey!
Sorry Tirno, I didn't mean to just get at you. It seems there's general agreement here (for a bloody change). But you get the point about the tautology.
But do new learners really need to have things so black and white? I think I did, twenty or thirty years ago. But maybe that's part of the problem? I wanted it in black and white, but perhaps it would have been better if I'd got it from the outset in the fluidity?
llig, I don't know if it necessarily would have been better. There's only so much a teacher can teach about the music. The essence of the music can't really be learned in a classroom.That final leap of understanding must ultimately be made by the student him/herself.
In order to do that, the student must have a solid foundation of the fundamentals upon which to build experience. Experience in playing, listening, and immersion in the culture, which will ultimately lead to a deeper understanding that goes beyond academic discussions on the subject.
The teacher's job is to provide that solid foundation - to prepare the student to go out into the world and "learn by doing".
Keeping things a bit black and white in the early stages can help the beginner learn the necessary fundamental skills in context, without causing confusion and frustration.
No Llig, they don't 'need' to have it that way, but it's tough for some of them to let go of it. It's a lot more comforable to have things with clearly defined boundaries. Humans are like that, I guess.
I've been participating in group lessons for the past three years. Many of my fellow learners have received some kind of formal music training.
I'm forever astounded at their ability to do technical feats that surpass me, to understand harmony and arrangment, but to be unable/unwilling to learn to play irish music.
By this I mean they play the same thing every time through, they don't ornament - or do it from muscle memory rather than intentionally and they mostly don't have the irish flow going.
And yet the teacher - while a bit of an innovator (loves flook and is good enough to play like them without sounding completely horrible) - shows us the many ways of a tune almost from the get go.
For me it was technical ability that was holding me back - and now maybe a basic lack of musicality - but I certainly have in mind a number of tunes - not as a series of notes, but as something more fluid. But I seem to be the exception rather than the rule, in spite of the approach of my teacher.
I was teaching a mate some whistle technique the other day. For the previous hour we had been practicing rolls on the whistle, as he didn't know how to play them. So I had him doing rolls up and down the scale for a while. Then he wanted to learn a new tune so he could try to put them into practice, and I chose Jimmy Ward's Jig as it's p*ss easy and has lots of opportunities for G and A rolls. Obviously he could not play accurate rolls at full speed so I was trying to teach the tune at the speed he could play the rolls, but the rolls kind of fell apart when he switched his focus from roll technique to learning the tune. Nevertheless I still taught the tune with the rolls in (this sounds like a baking show) since it seemed to me that he should have the ornamented sound in his head, as those rolly Gs are (to me) important in that jig. I'm not at all experienced at teaching this stuff -- is this how you experienced teachers would have gone about it? I have taught sociology and horse riding (not at the same time). With the riding, you might work on someone's leg position at a walk on the longe line. If that's going ok, you might take them off the line, or let them trot. As soon as it gets more complicated their position will probably suffer but you have to push them a bit and keep their interest as well.
Teach that tune in A on a D whistle at the same time. It gets the pupil to think in terms of melody and intervals rather than finger shapes. (It's good in A on the pipes too)
Teaching children and adults is very different, Kids are , in general , far more open minded and 'malleable' while adults often are set in their ways and only an epiphany will break them from their shell.
Teachers are therefore constrained by the students capabilities. Each student should be approached in a unique manner dictated by an understanding of the students potential and aptitude.
Obviously ornaments are introduced at some stage, how and when are up to the teacher. IMO when you consider that the essentials of a good performance are good timing, rhythm, lift and drive that these issues should take priority, then alternative ways of playing can be introduced.
Since different regional styles and individual styles make use of different levels of ornamentation then I feel that a 'one size fits all ' approach which has tended towards a 'flattening out' of various regional characteristics in favour of a universal 'Sligo style' is to be avoided. Likewise an approach that churns out particular regional styles , almost to counter this flattening out threatens to 'throw the baby out with the bath water'. Both extremes are IMO best avoided.
As the individual matures they will naturally gravitate to a personal style which reflects both their regional identity and personal inclinations. The common denominator in all the different styles are the tunes , and the ornaments. How and where we ornament, how we play the tunes, are expressions of ourselves and our cultural leanings. I feel strongly that these should not be imposed upon the student but the various alternatives simply offered to them.
IMO There is now a common 'session style' [ sligo?]that allows all to participate. I think this is good in a number of ways . But not to exclude developing an intensely personal style that might not fit in so well with this 'session ' style.
Michael, this is where my music theory idiocy comes in, but when you say teach that tune in A do you mean something like the version Capercaillie play, where you start with a roll on the top D? Or would that be in D?
Thanks for that llig. I would never have thought about playing it in A , and the E roll for that matter. I was gently tapping the A or just using a straight A.
I used to think that it was best to learn the bones, then add ornaments. But now I think it is better to learn tunes with ornaments, otherwise you tend to learn to play in a lazy fashion and avoid them, and end up playing with a stripped-down non-Irish mode of playing.
And just because you learn a tune with one ornament, doesn't mean you can subsitute others later on. I am constantly amazed by the amount of variation that this music allows. Take the first half measure of Out on the Ocean. I learned it with a B dotted quarter note, which was boring. Then I started sliding up into the B. Then I started playing BDB. Then I heard people roll the B, and play DDB. And lately on accordion, I have been putting a BD double stop up front. And it is all good.....
>Yep, that first B roll is vital. But play the tune in A on the flute >and you can't roll the C#. That's fluidity
oddly enough myself and silver spear had a parallel conversation about this last week (not here).
i rememebred an old joke/trick from somewhere that pointed out you can play out on the ocean a tone higher on the whistle by the simple expedient of moving your fingers a hole "higher" up the whistle. I.e. put your "a" finger on "b" etc, "d" remains uncovered,. I only tried it once years ago, it seemed to work but is obviously just a piece of fun.
Miss spear wasn't very impressed though as you couldn't roll the b. But like michael says above. It isn't a b, it is a c#. Which isn't really a candidate for a whistle roll.
It has just occured to me, Michael: you've often used that b roll as an example of how the ornament is integral to the tune. BUt of course if it is shifted up, the c# can't really be rolled on a a whistle etc (I'm open to correction here). So playing the tune in "a" on a whistle, is the tune being played ?
That's today's pointless conundrum
Bear in mind I think of such issues as our very own angels jigging around the pin head, and not something to lose sleep over.
Well, it's a good conundrum and a good example of the contradictions inherent in the music. On the one hand, you "need" to be able to roll the first note, B or C#. (No problem on the fiddle of course). But I think I learned the tune when I was a kid first from the planxty record with Liam O'flynn, Noel Hill and Tony Linnain. And they play it in A. So they played it very staccato. Tight , closed fingering on the pipes. Only later did I discover that most people play it in G and importance of the B roll became apparent.
It's about something I've said before about knowing tunes. When I was a kid I'd have said, yeah, I know Out in the Ocean. Then I got the Molloy Peoples Brady record and had my socks blown off. They play it in G# so Molloy rolls the Cnat on his Eb flute. Then I got Matt Molloy's Heathery Breeze and went, flippin heck, I don't know this music at all. He plays it this time with sublime aplomb, only it was in Eb, so rolling the Gnat on his Bb flute. Such simplicity was lost on me as a kid. It took me a while to decipher it. And because I didn't understand how or why, regardless of the different keys, the three versions were so different I assumed that the music was far more complicated than it actually was.
I don't know why we do that, assume things are more complicated than they are.
There is only a roll on that note if your instrument allows, your technique allows nd you decide you'd like to roll there. Its not a part of the tune obviously, because it it was then it would not be possible to play out on the ocean on the banjo and concertina which is clearly not the case. this is plain logic. There is no conundrum its quite simple. The ornaments are not integral to the tune, they are what we do with the tune.
There are way more possibilities with the Csharp on the pipes than the whistle. You can roll it, play it staccato, slide to it, whatever. Not the easiest note to do a roll on but you can learn how to do it. I use C sharp rolls when I play tunes like the "Kitchen Maid."
What I like about changing keys is that standard places for ornaments become inaccessible and the new fingering opens up other places to ornament. I notice this in the playing of Tony MacMahon; he ornaments in 'unlikely' places though I doubt its for this reason? . This really adds another level again to his playing which is consumate anyhow . The predictable standard place to roll is left bare and he surprises us with a roll somewhere else!
I suppose we could view it as 'spice' to the tune.. Some like spicy food some plain, Some like ubiquitous 'curry powder' some like a touch of Cumin one day and coriander the next. There is no right and wrong, just taste.
Or perhaps degrees of sweetness in a pudding; some like sharp[apple pie some like it super sweet. Following on from this we know when something 'tastes' wrong like a load of suger [Vibrato] on a on a savoury dish [ reel] or curry powder on the pudding!
learning tunes - ornamentation
learning tunes - ornamentation
My kids are learning music in a group with a well known teacher locally. I’ve noticed that she (the teacher) is teaching the tunes with the ornamentation "built in", ie the children are learning a tune from scratch, without necessarily realsing which notes/phrases are part of the essential tune, and which notes are the turns/variations etc. This is not criticism from me, but more of a general query, Im curious, as I would intuitively have guessed that it would be better to learn the "bare bones" of a tune, get that right, and then fit in the ornamentation in afterwards.
What do you think?
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by BanjoBongo
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
If you are good enough to play the ornamentation right from the start, do so.
Don' t know how talented/advanced these kids are though.
If the ornaments just make you stumble and prevent you from getting into the groove, leave them out for a start.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
If you run a search for this topic on the website, you'll find LONG discussions on this very subject.
Let the games begin.
Anyway, the ornaments ARE a part of the tune. I would agree with your kids' teacher.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
I would say it all depends on what level the kids are at. If they've moved past the beginning stages, and they've done their scales and a few simple tunes (marches, waltzes, maybe a hornpipe), then I would say it's best to start teaching ornaments alongside the tunes.
When I was learning, I was just about able to get through a simple hornpipe when I switched to a new teacher. The new teacher gave me a simple jig, containing one gracenote. I learned the jig and the gracenote together, with the ornament in context. The following week I was given a reel (Anderson's IIRC) containing one roll. The teacher taught me how to do the roll on its own, then in the tune. During that week I learned the reel and the roll together.
During the years with that teacher, I learned technique, tunes, and ornaments all together. I think that method worked pretty well anyway.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by tradshark
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
I teach my students to put ornamentation into the tunes at an early stage. I think it's also helpful to point out to them the many different points in a tune at which ornaments can be played, but not to overdo it( a subjective judgement on my part). I'd also make the point that for many inexperienced students it is important for them to play the tune/s at a tempo that allows them to put ornamentation into the tune . A slower tempo with tasteful ornamentation is to my ears far more enjoyable than a faster pace with little or no ornamentation. Some years back the Clare fiddler Seamus Connolly recorded a tune called Carraigin Ruadh on his "Here and There" LP and I use it as the definitive version of an Irish tune with ornamentation, the perfect example of how to play a reel, or at least to aspire to treat tunes in such a manner. If you like the ideal balance between tune and ornamentation.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Obviously both approaches are possible. The approach you describe however can lead to individuality being subsumed to rote learning. All it needs is for these versions to be written down and pushed as 'the right way' and then deviation from this way of playing becomes 'incorrect', and we know where that can lead!
Typically a large organisation devoted to pushing 'their way' of playing, controlling competitions, where if you dont play 'by the book' you wont win a prize would be the next stage on this degeneration of the tradition.
A rote 'Clare style' or whatever where deviation from the norm becomes squashed leading to uniformity in playing. same rolls, same triplets, so that large groups can play together in a 'session' and not sound all muddy...
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Ionannas, do you really think that's likely? Or is that maybe exaggerating things a bit?
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by tradshark
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Oh if only I were. I am simply describing something that has already happened 100 odd yrs ago in a different tradition. Sad but true. Now with modern media this might well be avoided, but only by the performers retaining control of their own heritage and not letting bureaucrats and the like take over!
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
A tune should't have a fixed set of ornaments or a fixed set of notes.
But when teaching, you inevitably have to start somewhere. Variation in ornamentation will happen at the same time as variation in melody. Especially if both are encouraged.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Tirno
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
I do wish people would get over such tautology as, "Variation in ornamentation will happen at the same time as variation in melody."
I think the nonsencical question, "Which notes/phrases are part of the essential tune, and which notes are the turns/variations etc?", probably comes from having tunes wrtitten down and having so called difinitive versions on commercial recordings. You have to embrace the fluidity of it more. Some people play with loads of twiddley bits, some with less, some with none. Most tunes sound odd to me when played without a certain roll or turn in a particular place, but then it's the skill of a good player to overcome this..
This music is full of contradiction and you have to accept things like, "This IS how it goes." and "This IS how it goes too", not "and this is another way it can go."
And respect people who say, "Oooh, I wouldn't do it that way."
And don't dismiss people who say, "Oooh, that's not the way it goes." until you've explored how qualified they are, ie, how good are they?
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
its hard to really get the picture of what BB is talking about. If you listen to the playing of a mature player say Bobby Casey his music is inventive, full or variety and ornamentation. It would be simply impractical to attempt to teach a 10 yr old to play like this surely. BB, are you describing more on the lines of Tradsharks experience?
This fluidity is very important. really playing with other people. Relating to what they do depends on a fluid understanding of a tune. If you have a fixed way the tune goes then when playing with another person with a likewise fixed understanding , but a different one, then there is little musical cohesion.
The flexibility to listen and relate to the general flow is essential in making good music.
I can really understand the objections to the written score in this context. A largely oral culture means that the performer is an essential part of the process and they can transmit this understanding of the music . But with the score 'nailed down' and fixed a lot of the depth can be lost.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
What I want to know is how you can ornament on the spoons and shakey egg, all the while being mindful of the main drive of the melody. I lie awake at night pondering this.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Spoon ornaments:
http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=19429685&ref=cat1_gallery_20
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
I obviously expressed myself in a way Llig disagrees with, but I was certainly attempting to say the same thing. A tune is some kind of "super set" of all the ways it goes (including different ornamentation) and which excludes the ways it doesn't go.
But when teaching, it's often easier to present just one way. But that way might as well contain ornamentation as that's all part of it.
I would surmise that the different ways a tune goes is not only something one learns through listening to many people play it, but also something that one can take a guess at through knowledge of the genre. And when you start figuring that out, different melodic paths and different ornament paths are all part of the same "thing"
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Tirno
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
It's concepts like this that make it so difficult for those newer learners who need to have things black or white. "It's like this, only when it's like that, and sometimes it's like this, but it's never like that."
It really takes understanding, subtlelty and an appreciation of shades of grey!
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Sorry Tirno, I didn't mean to just get at you. It seems there's general agreement here (for a bloody change). But you get the point about the tautology.
But do new learners really need to have things so black and white? I think I did, twenty or thirty years ago. But maybe that's part of the problem? I wanted it in black and white, but perhaps it would have been better if I'd got it from the outset in the fluidity?
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
llig, I don't know if it necessarily would have been better. There's only so much a teacher can teach about the music. The essence of the music can't really be learned in a classroom.That final leap of understanding must ultimately be made by the student him/herself.
In order to do that, the student must have a solid foundation of the fundamentals upon which to build experience. Experience in playing, listening, and immersion in the culture, which will ultimately lead to a deeper understanding that goes beyond academic discussions on the subject.
The teacher's job is to provide that solid foundation - to prepare the student to go out into the world and "learn by doing".
Keeping things a bit black and white in the early stages can help the beginner learn the necessary fundamental skills in context, without causing confusion and frustration.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by tradshark
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
No Llig, they don't 'need' to have it that way, but it's tough for some of them to let go of it. It's a lot more comforable to have things with clearly defined boundaries. Humans are like that, I guess.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
I've been participating in group lessons for the past three years. Many of my fellow learners have received some kind of formal music training.
I'm forever astounded at their ability to do technical feats that surpass me, to understand harmony and arrangment, but to be unable/unwilling to learn to play irish music.
By this I mean they play the same thing every time through, they don't ornament - or do it from muscle memory rather than intentionally and they mostly don't have the irish flow going.
And yet the teacher - while a bit of an innovator (loves flook and is good enough to play like them without sounding completely horrible) - shows us the many ways of a tune almost from the get go.
For me it was technical ability that was holding me back - and now maybe a basic lack of musicality - but I certainly have in mind a number of tunes - not as a series of notes, but as something more fluid. But I seem to be the exception rather than the rule, in spite of the approach of my teacher.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Tirno
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Here is the practical teaching conundrum:
I was teaching a mate some whistle technique the other day. For the previous hour we had been practicing rolls on the whistle, as he didn't know how to play them. So I had him doing rolls up and down the scale for a while. Then he wanted to learn a new tune so he could try to put them into practice, and I chose Jimmy Ward's Jig as it's p*ss easy and has lots of opportunities for G and A rolls. Obviously he could not play accurate rolls at full speed so I was trying to teach the tune at the speed he could play the rolls, but the rolls kind of fell apart when he switched his focus from roll technique to learning the tune. Nevertheless I still taught the tune with the rolls in (this sounds like a baking show) since it seemed to me that he should have the ornamented sound in his head, as those rolly Gs are (to me) important in that jig. I'm not at all experienced at teaching this stuff -- is this how you experienced teachers would have gone about it? I have taught sociology and horse riding (not at the same time). With the riding, you might work on someone's leg position at a walk on the longe line. If that's going ok, you might take them off the line, or let them trot. As soon as it gets more complicated their position will probably suffer but you have to push them a bit and keep their interest as well.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Teach that tune in A on a D whistle at the same time. It gets the pupil to think in terms of melody and intervals rather than finger shapes. (It's good in A on the pipes too)
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Teaching children and adults is very different, Kids are , in general , far more open minded and 'malleable' while adults often are set in their ways and only an epiphany will break them from their shell.
Teachers are therefore constrained by the students capabilities. Each student should be approached in a unique manner dictated by an understanding of the students potential and aptitude.
Obviously ornaments are introduced at some stage, how and when are up to the teacher. IMO when you consider that the essentials of a good performance are good timing, rhythm, lift and drive that these issues should take priority, then alternative ways of playing can be introduced.
Since different regional styles and individual styles make use of different levels of ornamentation then I feel that a 'one size fits all ' approach which has tended towards a 'flattening out' of various regional characteristics in favour of a universal 'Sligo style' is to be avoided. Likewise an approach that churns out particular regional styles , almost to counter this flattening out threatens to 'throw the baby out with the bath water'. Both extremes are IMO best avoided.
As the individual matures they will naturally gravitate to a personal style which reflects both their regional identity and personal inclinations. The common denominator in all the different styles are the tunes , and the ornaments. How and where we ornament, how we play the tunes, are expressions of ourselves and our cultural leanings. I feel strongly that these should not be imposed upon the student but the various alternatives simply offered to them.
IMO There is now a common 'session style' [ sligo?]that allows all to participate. I think this is good in a number of ways . But not to exclude developing an intensely personal style that might not fit in so well with this 'session ' style.
What say yous?
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
You never step in the same river twice.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by Mike Floorstand
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Mike, didn't Herakleitos say that?
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Michael, this is where my music theory idiocy comes in, but when you say teach that tune in A do you mean something like the version Capercaillie play, where you start with a roll on the top D? Or would that be in D?
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Hmm I play it on D or G on a D whistle ...
Just tried it in A and its surprisingly easy! only 2 G# in the whole tune..
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Yeah, that's right. It is surprisingly easy. I get round the G#s with a short bottom E roll instead
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
It's fluidity
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Thanks for that llig. I would never have thought about playing it in A , and the E roll for that matter. I was gently tapping the A or just using a straight A.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
I used to think that it was best to learn the bones, then add ornaments. But now I think it is better to learn tunes with ornaments, otherwise you tend to learn to play in a lazy fashion and avoid them, and end up playing with a stripped-down non-Irish mode of playing.
And just because you learn a tune with one ornament, doesn't mean you can subsitute others later on. I am constantly amazed by the amount of variation that this music allows. Take the first half measure of Out on the Ocean. I learned it with a B dotted quarter note, which was boring. Then I started sliding up into the B. Then I started playing BDB. Then I heard people roll the B, and play DDB. And lately on accordion, I have been putting a BD double stop up front. And it is all good.....
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by AlBrown
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Yep, that first B roll is vital. But play the tune in A on the flute and you can't roll the C#. That's fluidity
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
>Yep, that first B roll is vital. But play the tune in A on the flute >and you can't roll the C#. That's fluidity
oddly enough myself and silver spear had a parallel conversation about this last week (not here).
i rememebred an old joke/trick from somewhere that pointed out you can play out on the ocean a tone higher on the whistle by the simple expedient of moving your fingers a hole "higher" up the whistle. I.e. put your "a" finger on "b" etc, "d" remains uncovered,. I only tried it once years ago, it seemed to work but is obviously just a piece of fun.
Miss spear wasn't very impressed though as you couldn't roll the b. But like michael says above. It isn't a b, it is a c#. Which isn't really a candidate for a whistle roll.
It has just occured to me, Michael: you've often used that b roll as an example of how the ornament is integral to the tune. BUt of course if it is shifted up, the c# can't really be rolled on a a whistle etc (I'm open to correction here). So playing the tune in "a" on a whistle, is the tune being played ?
That's today's pointless conundrum
Bear in mind I think of such issues as our very own angels jigging around the pin head, and not something to lose sleep over.
- chris
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Well, it's a good conundrum and a good example of the contradictions inherent in the music. On the one hand, you "need" to be able to roll the first note, B or C#. (No problem on the fiddle of course). But I think I learned the tune when I was a kid first from the planxty record with Liam O'flynn, Noel Hill and Tony Linnain. And they play it in A. So they played it very staccato. Tight , closed fingering on the pipes. Only later did I discover that most people play it in G and importance of the B roll became apparent.
It's about something I've said before about knowing tunes. When I was a kid I'd have said, yeah, I know Out in the Ocean. Then I got the Molloy Peoples Brady record and had my socks blown off. They play it in G# so Molloy rolls the Cnat on his Eb flute. Then I got Matt Molloy's Heathery Breeze and went, flippin heck, I don't know this music at all. He plays it this time with sublime aplomb, only it was in Eb, so rolling the Gnat on his Bb flute. Such simplicity was lost on me as a kid. It took me a while to decipher it. And because I didn't understand how or why, regardless of the different keys, the three versions were so different I assumed that the music was far more complicated than it actually was.
I don't know why we do that, assume things are more complicated than they are.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
There is only a roll on that note if your instrument allows, your technique allows nd you decide you'd like to roll there. Its not a part of the tune obviously, because it it was then it would not be possible to play out on the ocean on the banjo and concertina which is clearly not the case. this is plain logic. There is no conundrum its quite simple. The ornaments are not integral to the tune, they are what we do with the tune.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
When you play them, they are.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Fair enough.
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
ha ha
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by ...
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
There are way more possibilities with the Csharp on the pipes than the whistle. You can roll it, play it staccato, slide to it, whatever. Not the easiest note to do a roll on but you can learn how to do it. I use C sharp rolls when I play tunes like the "Kitchen Maid."
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
What I like about changing keys is that standard places for ornaments become inaccessible and the new fingering opens up other places to ornament. I notice this in the playing of Tony MacMahon; he ornaments in 'unlikely' places though I doubt its for this reason? . This really adds another level again to his playing which is consumate anyhow . The predictable standard place to roll is left bare and he surprises us with a roll somewhere else!
I suppose we could view it as 'spice' to the tune.. Some like spicy food some plain, Some like ubiquitous 'curry powder' some like a touch of Cumin one day and coriander the next. There is no right and wrong, just taste.
Or perhaps degrees of sweetness in a pudding; some like sharp[apple pie some like it super sweet. Following on from this we know when something 'tastes' wrong like a load of suger [Vibrato] on a on a savoury dish [ reel] or curry powder on the pudding!
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
Yes, Herakleitos. You shoulda heard him play bouzouki.
# Posted on May 2nd 2009 by Mike Floorstand
Re: learning tunes - ornamentation
ornamentation is advanced learning so I would suggest yoiu learn the bare bones first and then move on to the twiddly bits later
Patsy
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Pat Duff