Yes , these are the main musical keys for ITM in that most tunes are in these keys but I'm wondering if H was referring to the number of white and black keys on the instrument i.e. the scale length. Some of the smaller Pa's have less scope and will cause limitation on the number of octaves etc but perhaps a P.A. player will elaborate.
Not that its much help, but piano accordions are sold by the button not the key. So you can have 120 button bass or 60 button bass (right down to 12), each having a different sized piano keyboard.
I don't suppose there is a minimum size of keyboard required, you just get the best instrument you can. For ITM, some would say, the basses don't matter, for sessions, anyway.
Bottom line is, if you are playing something like Reel Beatrice (I couldn't think of anything with a large range that was ITM), you will run out of keys, or have to transpose it, if you don't have a larger sized keyboard.
Nevertheless, the likes of Karen Tweed and Phil Cunningham play smaller keyboards, so you can play nearly everything on a smaller version.
I live in the London area, Britain, and I bought my piano accordion from Allodi Accordions in Lee High Road. They are very knowledgeable, and have a good website which shows pictures of loads of different models, which you might find helpful by way of illustration. I was able to choose not only the number of bass buttons, but the way those buttons are set up - eg. on a 48 button bass, which was what I chose for relative ease of lifting, there are basses set up 6 by 8, or 4 by 12 (ie you can either be able to play in a fewer number of keys, but with more variants of the type of chord within those keys, or play in more keys with fewer variants of chord - if you see what I mean). I was then ALSO able to choose the number of piano keys, and I picked an accordion with keys which went from the G below middle C up to and past high B. My rationale was that I wanted to have the same lower range as a fiddle does, so that I don't have to adapt the many many ITM tunes that go down to bottom G.
However, to get that, I had to have the 6 by 8 bass, as they didn't do the slightly longer keyboard in the 4 by 12 bass. To give myself a bit more flexibility for the basses more frequently required in ITM, I then asked Allodi to change my bass buttons to include B at one end, and knock off B flat at the other end. Some accordion players are horrified at this, but it suits me really well.
1) Windup answer: only one, as long as the lock is secure enough.
2) Serious answer: Lots of p.a.s I've seen have but two octaves. It would seem that the minimum range would be from D through one octave up to the next-highest B, which maps onto the range of the whistle and the flute. In that case, the p.a.s that start at C and cover two octaves would do the trick. Better would be something that goes down to G (as a fiddle) and up to that same B, which would cover 99% of the tunes on TheSession, which is a pretty good sample of the repertoire.
Hello, I had a similar idea to add & shift the basses down on my 24-bass (8x3,E-F) Crucianelli 25-key (C-C) piano accordion, a small but delightful instrument about 50-60 years old. I'd add the B, move everything down & lose the Bb on the other end if I did.
However, as this would seem to involve moving a lot of reeds and/or wires, it seems like a large job.. Didn't it cost quite a bundle to have it done?
The old codger who does my tuning/repairs (Watanabe, in Tokyo) just sniffed when I asked him and wouldn't even consider it.
~Jim Ediger
Jane R writes:
>I then asked Allodi to change my bass buttons to include B at one end, and knock off B flat at the other end. Some accordion players are horrified at this, but it suits me really well.
I noticed nobody actually quoted numbers of keys/bass buttons, so it may be quite belated, but a few comments FWIW:
My 25-RH-key (C-C--similar to tin whistle), and 24-bass (8x3, E-A-D-G-C-F-Bb) Crucianelli piano accordion does pretty well for a lot of Irish tunes, and it's highly portable, and I've used it with geat satisfaction for many a year & session.. Not great for tunes with more sharps or flats on the edges (a bit of a drag w/out B min. or F# minor, or Eb). Even A major is a bit limited, but doable with A D and E as your I-IV-V.
Tunes in A minor are somewhat better as you can also use a C, as in Gravel Walk reel.
But really you'd want the basses more towards the sharp keys, or just have all 12 chromatic notes in the bass (a complete circle of fifths) so you can get B minor and F#minor which are fairly useable in Irish music. That means all 12 chromatic keys, generally in 48- or 60-bass configuration or larger if you transport by pickup truck..
Ie., a 12x4, with the root/third/maj/min for every chromatic key.
In the right hand: if you want the range of the fiddle's 29 notes low G to high B in first position, you'd want about that many RH-keys (though tin whistles get by with less..)
I've seen quite a few RH, 32-key or 34-key accordions that cover all of these notes from the low G up to the high D or E--which is thus more than adequate for the basic tunes.
So you'd want about 30 RH-keys +/- depending size/range prefs. consideration.
piano accordeon
piano accordeon
hi,
how many keys does a piano accordeon at lest need to play ITM, I was wondering just like that?
Ta,
H
# Posted on September 16th 2003 by hhold
Re: piano accordeon
C, G, D and A
# Posted on September 16th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: piano accordeon
Yes , these are the main musical keys for ITM in that most tunes are in these keys but I'm wondering if H was referring to the number of white and black keys on the instrument i.e. the scale length. Some of the smaller Pa's have less scope and will cause limitation on the number of octaves etc but perhaps a P.A. player will elaborate.
John
# Posted on September 16th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: piano accordeon
I know this is an honest, straightforward request, but part of me wants to think it's a "set-up line."
# Posted on September 17th 2003 by sts
Re: piano accordeon
Not that its much help, but piano accordions are sold by the button not the key. So you can have 120 button bass or 60 button bass (right down to 12), each having a different sized piano keyboard.
I don't suppose there is a minimum size of keyboard required, you just get the best instrument you can. For ITM, some would say, the basses don't matter, for sessions, anyway.
Bottom line is, if you are playing something like Reel Beatrice (I couldn't think of anything with a large range that was ITM), you will run out of keys, or have to transpose it, if you don't have a larger sized keyboard.
Nevertheless, the likes of Karen Tweed and Phil Cunningham play smaller keyboards, so you can play nearly everything on a smaller version.
# Posted on September 17th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: piano accordeon
I live in the London area, Britain, and I bought my piano accordion from Allodi Accordions in Lee High Road. They are very knowledgeable, and have a good website which shows pictures of loads of different models, which you might find helpful by way of illustration. I was able to choose not only the number of bass buttons, but the way those buttons are set up - eg. on a 48 button bass, which was what I chose for relative ease of lifting, there are basses set up 6 by 8, or 4 by 12 (ie you can either be able to play in a fewer number of keys, but with more variants of the type of chord within those keys, or play in more keys with fewer variants of chord - if you see what I mean). I was then ALSO able to choose the number of piano keys, and I picked an accordion with keys which went from the G below middle C up to and past high B. My rationale was that I wanted to have the same lower range as a fiddle does, so that I don't have to adapt the many many ITM tunes that go down to bottom G.
However, to get that, I had to have the 6 by 8 bass, as they didn't do the slightly longer keyboard in the 4 by 12 bass. To give myself a bit more flexibility for the basses more frequently required in ITM, I then asked Allodi to change my bass buttons to include B at one end, and knock off B flat at the other end. Some accordion players are horrified at this, but it suits me really well.
Jane R
# Posted on September 17th 2003 by LW
Re: piano accordeon
1) Windup answer: only one, as long as the lock is secure enough.
2) Serious answer: Lots of p.a.s I've seen have but two octaves. It would seem that the minimum range would be from D through one octave up to the next-highest B, which maps onto the range of the whistle and the flute. In that case, the p.a.s that start at C and cover two octaves would do the trick. Better would be something that goes down to G (as a fiddle) and up to that same B, which would cover 99% of the tunes on TheSession, which is a pretty good sample of the repertoire.
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 18th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: piano accordeon
Get a button box!!!
What is the definition of a gentleman?
A man who can play the piano keyed accordion but doesn't. ***grin***
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by breandan
Re: piano accordeon
Hello, I had a similar idea to add & shift the basses down on my 24-bass (8x3,E-F) Crucianelli 25-key (C-C) piano accordion, a small but delightful instrument about 50-60 years old. I'd add the B, move everything down & lose the Bb on the other end if I did.
However, as this would seem to involve moving a lot of reeds and/or wires, it seems like a large job.. Didn't it cost quite a bundle to have it done?
The old codger who does my tuning/repairs (Watanabe, in Tokyo) just sniffed when I asked him and wouldn't even consider it.
~Jim Ediger
Jane R writes:
>I then asked Allodi to change my bass buttons to include B at one end, and knock off B flat at the other end. Some accordion players are horrified at this, but it suits me really well.
# Posted on July 11th 2005 by jimmydearing
Re: piano accordeon
I noticed nobody actually quoted numbers of keys/bass buttons, so it may be quite belated, but a few comments FWIW:
My 25-RH-key (C-C--similar to tin whistle), and 24-bass (8x3, E-A-D-G-C-F-Bb) Crucianelli piano accordion does pretty well for a lot of Irish tunes, and it's highly portable, and I've used it with geat satisfaction for many a year & session.. Not great for tunes with more sharps or flats on the edges (a bit of a drag w/out B min. or F# minor, or Eb). Even A major is a bit limited, but doable with A D and E as your I-IV-V.
Tunes in A minor are somewhat better as you can also use a C, as in Gravel Walk reel.
But really you'd want the basses more towards the sharp keys, or just have all 12 chromatic notes in the bass (a complete circle of fifths) so you can get B minor and F#minor which are fairly useable in Irish music. That means all 12 chromatic keys, generally in 48- or 60-bass configuration or larger if you transport by pickup truck..
Ie., a 12x4, with the root/third/maj/min for every chromatic key.
In the right hand: if you want the range of the fiddle's 29 notes low G to high B in first position, you'd want about that many RH-keys (though tin whistles get by with less..)
I've seen quite a few RH, 32-key or 34-key accordions that cover all of these notes from the low G up to the high D or E--which is thus more than adequate for the basic tunes.
So you'd want about 30 RH-keys +/- depending size/range prefs. consideration.
# Posted on July 11th 2005 by jimmydearing