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The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I Came across a discussion on this forum where there was some fallacy and myths about the scots/irsh being a race of people. Also there was a false statment about being genetically scottish; both statements are false.
I would lke to clear this up -
The scots are not defined as a race through anthropology or scots law and european statutue. there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman or german etc. The scots are seperated by culture, geography and community, Therefore you cannot be scottish just because your ancestors were scottsh, the scots are not a race of people. We are a culture and nation.
I want to further pont out that am not referng to nationality or ctizenship; anyone can lve n scotland or ireland for a number of years and gain citizenship.
Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to adulthood. This allows scotland to change, form and mould your personality and character by scottish; culture, people, ideology, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, attitudes, worldview, kinship, community, behavioural traits, politics etc. etc. as well as all of our weaknesses and such.
Only these things makes you scottish. Culture and values such as these ones are not tangible and canot be passed down especially after several generations. They have to be lived in every day in order to be assimilated by them.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Yea, that's all very well and technically correct but there's more too it than that. Most Scots or Irish who are not brought up in Scotland are where they are through diaspora. Many of them try to get close to their native culture, speak Gaelic and play the traditional music of the country of their recent origin. I was born and have always lived in the Scottish Islands but I would never deny the decedents of the thousands that were cleared from here to call themselves Scottish if that's what they want.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to adulthood. This allows scotland to change, form and mould your personality and character by scottish; culture, people, ideology, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, attitudes, worldview, kinship, community, behavioural traits, politics etc. etc. as well as all of our weaknesses and such."
So presumably the current generation of kids in Scotland, who have grown up watching TV, are all half breed English/American? Because that is the culture, ideology and worldview they have been brought up with.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"So presumably the current generation of kids in Scotland, who have grown up watching TV, are all half breed English/American? Because that is the culture, ideology and worldview they have been brought up with."
No it isnt, scottish children are brought up in scotland, fully immersed in scottish culture. Our culture doesnt come from the TV.
"try telling that to the people of Cape Breton some of whom [small number] are still native speakers of Scots Gaelic."
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
So what is 'Scottish Culture' then? You can not disenfranchise tens of thousands of people based on such a obviously faulty definition .
The fact is that the family environment is every bit as defining of a persons culture as that of outside the family unit. A child of Scots heritage brought up in England with Scottish Parents is as Scottish as you are! You start with that kind of nonsense in the company of some friends of mine and you'd soon be shown the error of your ways!
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"So what is 'Scottish Culture' then? You can not disenfranchise tens of thousands of people based on such a obviously faulty definition ."
Read my posts I have posted the values and attributes that make you scottish several tmes
"A child of Scots heritage brought up in England with Scottish Parents is as Scottish as you are!"
I disagree, as I have said before the scots are NOT a race you cannot be scottish through ancestry. The child would english, that s the culture that shaped and formed that child.
"You start with that kind of nonsense in the company of some friends of mine and you'd soon be shown the error of your ways!"
I am not looking for a fight and am not seekng to upset the balance of this forum, as am a newcomer, if you cant debate please dont bother replying to my posts.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Once again, another person dictating what constitutes another's sense of identity. You are confusing nationality with cultural identification and ethnic heritage. We both agree there is no such thing as race. The human tree is such a spider web that the concept is ridiculous. However, cultural identification can be the very cornerstone to some people's sense of who they are in this world - simply because you claim it is a fallacy makes it no less real or valid to millions of people around the world. Your position speaks to a sense of "purity" and elitism which is very distasteful and arrogant. Culture is a choice.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I guess its to with the 'legitimacy' and 'ownership' of culture, who is 'in' the group and who is 'out'. Who can legitimately Interpret the music and who can not. Dividing us by our nationality or place of birth creates a hierarchy. Normally done by those who feel they deserve to be on 'top' of the hierarchy.
A far more legitimate concept would be based upon language, being fluent in the language of the Gael , and its metre, flow etc could help in playing the tunes in a more 'authentic' fashion.
This concept however is roundly condemned by the majority who cant speak the language!
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan
If you want to get an idea of the sort of reaction this kind of discussion creates have a look at the "Nationality" thread of a couple of months ago. This is a red/blue/green/orange rag to a lot of people on this forum.. You really can't generalise without upsetting people some way (to generalise).
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Your position speaks to a sense of "purity" and elitism which is very distasteful and arrogant. Culture is a choice."
It has nothing to do wth elitism or purity, It is a matter of fact. you are either scottish or not. You are NOT scottish unless you were rased in scotland.
calling yourself scottish when you were born and raised n america or canada is ridiculous and all the scots I have met thnk so equally.
Before embarking on a trip to north america was warned by family and frends about the ntensly irritating skaddish americans and plastic paddies. making such ridiculous claims.
where do you get the audacity to tell a scotsman what makes someone scottish when you are an american or canadian.
If you came to scotland loudly exclamed in your scottish accent ' i am scottish ' what do you think the scots around would think.
your not scottish, you are american/canadian. why do you fantasize about being scottish so much, i gaurantee you if you came to scotland and stayed here a while you would realize how unscottish you are.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Maybe your referring to another thread that I've commented on and, if so which part of British gene implies a Scottish gene? We are 80% of us distantly related and the trail seems to lead through France Iberia & across North Africa. In Arabic, words like "knife", "upon you" and one or two others are quite similar to Scots Gaelic. Coincidence perhaps, as the piping tradition maybe to, of say Egypt.
I agree to some extent aka modern culture, as I personally know a fair few cultural Scots & Irish by your measure, because of exposure to our way or the Irish way of doing things and this comes from living and growing in those countries. Even within our country (Scotland) there are cultural differences; from the north south east west and the isles, so just what is a Scot? In the modern context a scot is someone who lives within the modern confines of Scotland, in the other thread some people were highlighting the fact that our culture is not that dissimilar to those next door. The difference between the four nations of these isles is far less than the difference between us (collective noun) and say a middle eastern Arab or the Spaniards, for example. This in part stems from sharing broader cultural similarities which come from exposure to each other and the fact that modern borders are political rather than racial. You can't rub a culture or language out in a generation or three, it's been tried and culture has proven stronger.
As mentioned by others I've no issue with folk coming and making their homes here or wishing to identify with themselves with us. I have a fairly, perhaps naive even, idea of what personifies us Scots (apart from Calvin and his dour "work & don't smile" form of dourness). For me Freedom Come all Ye and a Mans a Man go some way toward my ideals. My door is open and my experience has taught me people are the same the world over and have much experience to draw on.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan:
"No it isnt, scottish children are brought up in scotland, fully immersed in scottish culture. Our culture doesnt come from the TV"
Well you must live in a different Scotland to me. And if your Scotland is that far up it's own arris it would explain why, despite having been here for four generations, my wife's family (and many others in this area) still refer to themselves as 'Galloway Irish', and consider being called Scottish an insult.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Well you must live in a different Scotland to me. And if your Scotland is that far up it's own arris it would explain why, despite having been here for four generations, my wife's family (and many others in this area) still refer to themselves as 'Galloway Irish', and consider being called Scottish an insult."
All scottish children are culturally american/english ?
crap, crap what on earth are you talking about ?????
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ha ha. Here we go again. Hilarious.
The only real North Americans live on reservations and now run casinos. The rest are interlopers, which is why we all hyphenate, and quite rightly so. Hey paleface, go tell a Seminole you're an American. Funny stuff.
So, people recognize their cultural heritage here. It's just how it's done. You can like it or not, it still 'is'.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I am happy to debate, I was simply making a point that the culture we grow up in, our family, is much stronger than the culture of schooling. At least in the formative years . I agree schooling can have a powerful effect but it by no means supersedes the formative bonding and cultural conditioning that goes on within the family unit. I was pointing out that the identity and culture of the child of Scots parents is not negotiable within that familly unit.
Conversely People can disown the culture they were brought up in in favour of a 'better one' as was done in Cape Breton for example, where the language and culture was denigrated in favour of the English, the language of prosperity when compared to the subsistence lifestyle of their parents.
<< "So what is 'Scottish Culture' then? You can not disenfranchise tens of thousands of people based on such a obviously faulty definition ."
Read my posts I have posted the values and attributes that make you scottish several tmes>>
No you posted this;
>>culture, people, ideology, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, attitudes, worldview, kinship, community, behavioural traits, politics etc. etc. as well as all of our weaknesses and such.>>
I said 'what is Scottish culture' and you reply, why its Scottish culture!
My point was there is no one Scottish Culture' there are many many different branches. The Culture of a Lad From the Gorbals is very different to that of one from Bernaray
"A child of Scots heritage brought up in England with Scottish Parents is as Scottish as you are!"
I disagree, as I have said before the scots are NOT a race you cannot be scottish through ancestry. The child would english, that s the culture that shaped and formed that child.
IMO you are mistaken. They are formed by the dominant culture around them ;The family culture.
What is 'English ' Culture anyhow? once again it doesnt exist apart from a broad concept that includes many many different people.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Siol - it's all within the context I suppose. I can think of no sane person who, when stepping off the plane in Glasgow from Canada or America and speaking with an affected accent would expect to be greeted as a fellow Scot. That is indeed ludicrous. However, it is VERY common in America and elsewhere amongst the diaspora for the children of immigrants to refer to themselves by their ethnic heritage. Celebration of one's ethnic heritage does not negate or change their opinions on nationality. Those are two different things.
It seemed to me you were trying to mock and condemn all those people around the world who still have a great attachment to the land where the ancestors came from. If I misread you, you have my apology. I personally have no issue with someone who celebrates their ethnicity by saying they are proud to be Scottish/ Irish/Mexican/ Italian/Polish/Nigerian etc, even if they were not born in that country. I think your obvious disdain for these folks is your issue - not theirs.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"IMO you are mistaken. They are formed by the dominant culture around them ;The family culture.
What is 'English ' Culture anyhow? once again it doesnt exist apart from a broad concept that includes many many different people."
english regional culture that is part of englsh culture, do start degeneratng into pathetic semantics.
*a group of scottish men drinkng in a pub; door opens and an american walks in; exclaims loudly in amercan accent' he yall im skaddish' followed by irrelevent descrption of clan that has not existed for over 200 years; scotsman rolls eyes and thinks 'fecking yank idiot;
the above is an accurate description of what scots think of root seeking skaddish amercans.
where do you get this idea that the scots would actually consider you as a fellow scot.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
This all reminds me of the movie Good Fellas, where Henry Hill could not become a "made man" because he didn't have pure Italian blood - he was half-Irish.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Oh no Siol! Don't give in to the dark side with name calling - we were having such a nice chat until then! I must say for your first post here, you've done quite well for yourself. Everyone's blood pressure is elevated, name calling has quickly ensued and the debate has rapidly slid into emotional rants.
Outstanding work son. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to put on my shamrock covered tuxedo and drink green beer at my local. Peace out, y'all
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I suspect these observations are coloured by the Plastic Paddy / Plastic Highlander syndrome of lots of New World people descending on Ireland and Scotland and being a bit over the top in their display of ethnic credentials. And I gather Salmond is trying to up the numbers visiting, right now.
The English are spared this, as English emigrants were less close-knit, not clan-based to the same extent at home, and not forced out by particular large-scale traumas such as the Famine and the Clearances. So it's a dimension of nationality (real or disputed) we see less of.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"WTF has this discussion got to do with ITM?'
Well, it's certainly a lot more interesting than yet another yawn inspiring ... 'let's bash the Bodhran player' thread!
A Scot who is brought up in Australia, by Scottish parents, will still clearly spend a huge % of their time with Oz kids in & out of school & watch Oz TV, so although they may be influenced to a certain extent by the their parent's culture, I reckon they're still going to think of themselves as Australian, whether they play the bagpipes & wear a kilt, or not.
Same surely, for a kid whose parents are Irish, but who is actually brought up in America ... they're American, obviously.
I've immersed myself in Irish Music for nigh on 40 years now & have actually lived in Ireland for getting on for 30 years in total, but I simply cannot escape my upbringing.
Reared in Scotland, by Scottish parents, amongst Scots till an adult, I am, always will be & am quite happy to be a Scot & it really doesn't matter how much of some other culture I surround myself with, a Scot I will be till the day I die.
I don't believe you can adopt a culture, like just putting on a different coat. I love Irish Music but I can never be Irish & it wouldn't matter if I also learned to Set Dance, speak Irish etc etc etc
This term Gael is interesting too. I don't speak a word of Gaelic so for me, going up into the Gaelic N.W. of Scotland is almost like going to a different country.
It's like the Gaels are a different kind of Scot from the Scots of the East coast & of the Borders folk.
So although we all think of ourselves as being Scottish, culturally we are also very different. So there is not a single all-defining Scottish culture, but rather regional variations that make up the whole picture.
So I guess what I'm saying is, the cultural values I have which make me culturally proud to think of myself as a Scot are, as a lowlander, without doubt rather different from the values that the Western Isles Gael has, or the person reared in Orkney or Shetland.
One thing that really does annoy me though, is this ferkin weird notion that some culture-nutters have, that if you can play Scottish Music, or dance a Highland Fling or speak Gaelic or wear tartan all the time, then magically you are somehow MORE Scottish, than the Scotsman next to you who can't do any of those things, but may still value them, but has his own special interests!
These buck eejits really get on my T!T$.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan:
Why do you feel motivated to prescribe how others should define themselves?
It is perfectly possibly for someone brought up in scotland, immersed from birth in scottish culture, to not feel particularly scottish. There are such people who think of themselves solely as british or european or citizen-of-the-world.
Similarly it is possible to grow up in cape breton in a scottish gaelic culture and identify oneself as (both) scottish and canadian (for example). For some reason this appears unacceptable to you.
Different people brought up in the same conditions will have different identities re culture and nationality. For some reason you appear to feel the need to set out rules for everyone to follow.
To me it seems like the problem is basically yours. Chill out, let people define themselves how they wish.
>Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does >having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be >scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to >adulthood
I have a problem with this as it denies immigrants any scottish identity (should they wish it). What about all those people fromother cultures who settled here. None of them are Scottish in your schematic. Seems rather exclusive. Not the kind of definition I'd like enshrined anywhere.
But the basic problem is that you seen to see inheritance as purely biogical with no cultural componet. After pointing out that
any genetic basis for a separate scottish or irish "race" is spurious, you appear to extrapolate from this that no inheritance can be passed on down the generations. This is absurd. we don't just inherit out genes from our parents (ot whoever brings us up) , but also a set of cultural values and tastes, which we may well reject. This is obvious and undeniable if you look at the simple example of religion. Generally handed down through the generations regardless of immigration until some individual makes the decision to go apostate. No bilogical component there, but clear inheritance of a cultural trait.
The race/genetic issue is a strawman.
but above all, why are you bothered by how someone else choses to identify themselves?
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Read up on your history. The questions of "where do I belong" both culturally, regionally, ethnically, and racially" started from the beginning of time. I wonder why someone would care so much about how another identifies oneself. Learn who you are. That's what matters. It's all labels. To most, I'm a "white American". I consider myself American by country/geographic affiliation; "racially"/ethnically I come from many traditions (Irish, Scottish, Polish, German, and Shawnee). When I say I'm "Irish" to someone, I'm speaking of ancestoral history (or Polish, etc.). I don't feel it's necessary to go back through eons of time and define myself any other way.... if you want to get technical about it all, we're all from the same source, in some way, shape, or form anyhow. It's an interesting discussion... very thought-provoking. However, if I go to Scotland one of these days (I'm a poor musician, poet and teacher, so that won't be anytime soon, I'm sure), I don't really care whether the locals recognize my "heritage" or not. I'm there for the scenery and Islay Malt Whiskey!
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ptarmy: in what way are you scottish (beyond identifying with that label?) How would you have been different had you been brought up elsewhere?
And why do we still f**k about worrying about how other people define themselves.
Is a scot any less of a scot if some other people (who I don't happen to have a very high opinion of either) go about saying they're "skaddish"? So what? Let 'em. It's completely harmless.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Does this thread smell like trolling?
You must be desperately insecure to care so much how other people define themselves. "Race," "nationality," "identity," etc. are ALL social constructs, so how people construct it for themselves is up to them. If you had Scottish/Irish/Mexican/Nigerian/whatever grandparents and define yourself as such even though you grew up in a different country, the so what? Why should this bother anyone else, although apparently it annoys the neurotic and insecure citizens of the nation you identify with, who feel that they should be entitled to define who gets to be a member of their state. Identity is a fluid thing.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I love Braveheart. I like any movies that are inspired by historical events, esp. the 19th century and before.... guess I was born in the wrong time. Anyway, it's an entertaining movie. Not that it has anything to do much with the above posts....
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Ptarmy: in what way are you scottish (beyond identifying with that label?)
How would you have been different had you been brought up elsewhere?"
Tirno, are you trying to say that I'd be exactly the same person, even if I'd been brought up in Bombay, or Hong Kong, or Alice Springs?
.......That's absurd!
Of course your whole living environment, during those very impresionable & formative first 18/20 years of your life, has a huge influence on who you are, for the rest of your life.
I have no doubt at all, if I'd been whisked away to Abu Dhabi or Shanghai at the age of two or three, I would indeed have a very different outlook.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I have for a long while advocated the concept of a Jurassic Park-like containment approach to Scotland, in hopes of preserving the remarkable ‘Scottish’ prototype. One would wish to keep it unsullied—a breed apart.
This approach has already worked well in Minnesota, Manitoba, and Paraguay. Escapes are few, and the rare escapee is quickly and easily identified, tagged, then returned and released (following a good, stern lecture).
You are likely asking, what’s to prevent a rogue Scot from inflating eight sheep bladders with helium and drifting to, say, Norway? Radar, and determined coastal watch volunteers. God's help, too.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
This is just a musing: but I think in America, we tend to identify ourselves according to our ancestral heritage because most Americans are not just one "race" or "ethnicity" as SOME Europoeans, Asians, and Africans (etc.) are. I think the idea of associating oneself inherently an irrevocably to their land is not one that many Americans identify with (unless, of course you are from a farming culture (or even rural.. owning many acres) and are dependant on that land. America is a country of Immigrants that isn't very old; whereas Europe, Asia and Africa's immigrants have been imbedded into the fabric of the land for much longer. Most of us, also, have not bled for our land. We have other people do that for us and just enjoy the perks. So, the point is, I guess, is that your sense of "belonging" is very relative.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Identity is a fluid thing."
Aye, but the question is surely ...... how fluid?
I can only speak for myself when I say, I know that it wouldn't matter how long I lived in Ireland. After 30 years I don't feel any less a Scot & I know that even after another 30, I'm sure I'd still feel the same.
However, I still have my Scottish accent & I know some folks can actually almost lose their own accent, after just 2 weeks on holiday in another country!
So perhaps they're the sort of folks who can quite easily shed their one identity & adopt another, but I'm afraid I'm not a Chameleon.
I don't really understand those folks, who are brought up somewhere, but perhaps through feelings of insecurity, long to belong to another country &/or another culture.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Silver—
You must bewitch Los Californios with tales of the wonders of Albuquerque and/or Portland, contrasting those with tales of the horrors of Larimer Street in Denver.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Born and brought up in England...I blame my parents for moving there, but that's where the work was. Maybe I was conceived in Scotland. My dad's never worn a kilt, played the bagpipes, spoken Gaelic etc etc but would still refer to himself as Scottish. Maybe he's never so happy as when he's miserable, being brought up in the Presbyterian ways of the 1940s and 1950s. So I have to settle for British of Scottish ancestory, or whatevr the tick boxes on the forms offer me. Couldn't ever bring myself to put English. But that's another discussion.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Rising, I can't understand why you would have a problem ticking the English box? I don't think that's another discussion at all, I think it may well be relevant.
Also, I don't know why you say your Dad must be miserable, to want to refer to himself as Scottish! Perhaps you could elaborate?
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Yep nicholas both are the same tune and it there right enough, though in the Atholl aka Fraser/Stecher driven Bow setting it's played in B flat just to keep things interesting.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I realised the other reason why I don't like this:
>Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does >having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be >scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to >adulthood
It implies that the children of immegramts brought up in scotland cannot consider themselves as Polish or Indian or Pakistani etc.
i.e. it is Norman Tebbit's Cricket test reworded slightly.
Siol, you and Norman are welcome to one and other.
But I doubt very much that feelingw arm in Norman's embrace is a universal Scottish trait
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ptarmy: obviously shanghai or something like that would be more exotic, but scotland vs ireland vs england. I'd say you pretty much get to choose. And then, as someone mentioned, you get as much intra-scot difference as you might between a scot and an irishman.
Although accent is a strong identifier - I've never lived in england, but identify as English and Swiss - even now that I live in France. I have a swiss french accent and an east-midlands english accent.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I don't understand why anyone would want to be Scottish. Wear a skirt in a windy climate, eat disgusting haggis all day, make a horrible screeching on the bagpipes and still be ruled by a silly old English bitch. After what he endured for Scottish freedom Mel Gibson must be turning over in his grave.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ignoring the silly post .......
" .. but scotland vs ireland vs england. I'd say you pretty much get to choose."
An interesting idea Tirno.
So you are basically saying that likewise, if you were born in Switzerland, Austria or Germany you pretty much get to choose where you actually belong & nobody has a problem with that.
I wonder if that is the case in Scandinavia too. Perhaps there also, it doesn't matter if you were born in Denmark, Norway or Sweden, you can just choose your own homeland.
Does that work in the Iberian peninsula too, I wonder.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
All the au natural Gaelic speaking Cape Bretoners I know and have met over the years consider themselves to be Cape Bretoners first and foremost then Canadians.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I have had contact with prime Scottish culture from the early days of my youth onward.
I went to see Hamish Imlach at the local folk club when I was only fourteen.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Rising Fawn, I would love to see the tick box that says 'English', but there's no such thing. You're British, or you're 'ethnic', as far as officialdom is concerned.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I don't recall anywhere other than Scotland where the questions "Where are you from" and "Where do you stay (i.e. live)" are so often paired, and different answers regarded as the norm.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The funniest part of Braveheart was the scene with the kilted Highland piper on a hill playing away, with lovely Scottish mountain scenery behind him and you hear the sound of, yes, the uilleann pipes. Fecking brilliant.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
A few weeks ago, I was in a restaurant in St Louis where a young gal from Sligo was waiting on tables. Inevitably, as she stopped at each table, each American family seated there would comment on her accent and then recite their entire "Irish" family tree to her. She would smile and politely exchange pleasantries. This scene was repeated at least three times while I was there.
Later I asked her if she had grown weary of this sort of behavior, and she said no, not at all. She took it as a compliment, and furthermore understood how in a nation made up of people from other places, the need to connect to "ancient tribes" as she put it was quite normal. I thought that was a rather refreshing perspective.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan-
Why do so many people from Britain and Ireland have this hang up?
Because a few harmless folks want to get in touch with what they perceive as a thier 'cultural ancestry' you guys have a fit beating your chests, plastic paddying your loud dumb ass outrage at 'those' people who take an interest in the culture of the place that thier ancesters came from.
I think that you and people like you are a s s h ol e s. Especially because you do it on an internet chat/forum. There's an AMERICAN word for that it starts with a 'P' and ends with a 'Y' and it aint plastic fkin' paddy.
And what are the aspects 'SCOTTISH' culture that yer all so priveleged to be inundated with. American rap music, English TV and touristy trappings of Irish Gaelic culture right?
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
LOL - you tell 'em Shanty! However, this grief isn't just from Scotland and Ireland. My good friend of Brazilian ancestry just returned from Rio and they didn't appreciate or understand his hyphenated identity either.
Let's face it - once we leave the "motherland" we can never go back....
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"I went to see Hamish Imlach at the local folk club when I was only fourteen"
Ah yes, Hamish Imlach, the Calcutta-born "folksinger" who sang some American blues and gospel when I saw him ... pure Scottish of course.
And very funny
I remember thinking at the time Norman Tebbit proposed his infamous test that few, if any, of his fellow English in Australia would pass such a test.
There is also an assumption that identity in a New World country such as the USA , Canada or Australia is a simple matter, but it isn't. For example, the Irish diaspora who emigrated en masse in the mid-1800s in the wake of famines and failed rebellions and suppression of their religion and culture (Catholic Emancipation was still a living memory) fought tenaciously in early political life the USA and Australia to have the freedom to practice that religion and culture and to resist domination by the WASP establishment of the sort that they had just escaped from. Some of them even tried a Fenian invasion of Canada at one point, and the young colony of New South Wales was in a tizzy when a "Fenian" apparently tried to assassinate some British Royal on a visit. Such political and social currents were resisted strenuously by the establishment who saw "Fenianism" as a real threat to the growing colonies and nation-states, and the identities of the diaspora and their descendants were forged from such lively history.
What I'm saying is that American, or Australian or Canadian identity isn't some bland neutral consensus that people can just adopt but is, even today, a tussle between competing immigrant cultures and mixtures of cultures.
It's a pity so many young Irish and Scots are ignorant of these things and merely express annoyance at the "plastics" who aren't as prevalent as the ranters would have you believe anyway
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I'm amazed at how many times it comes up on this forum. Here's a guy tellin' someone born in SCOTLAND that he can't call himself a Scot! And it's so easy to post crap like that on an internet forum. He'd never do it to the guys face probably. And then the bit about being brought up in 'Scottish culture'. Where's that happen? Scottish ideology? The fck is that? If I was in a bar I'd be screaming at him to give me an answer. On this forum he can sneak away....
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Brave Liver" is the tale of Irish hero Moon Murphy, whose singlehanded draining of the casks spared the delicate livers of the entire population of County Louth.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The three men starving men staggered out of the woods and came upon a dying bull. The Scotsmen stepped up and said "My favorite football club is Hearts, so as a tribute to them, I'm gonna eat the heart of the beast." The Englishman stepped up and said "I support Liverpool, so as a tribute to them, I shall eat the liver."
After a bit, they turned to the Irishman and asked why he wasn't eating. "Well, my favorite football club is ARSEnal - urp, and I've suddenly lost me appetite..."
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Jock, Taff, Mick n Geordie are standing at the bar, Jock is telling the lads that his son playing pool is Andrew because he was born on St. Andrew's day.
Amazing says Taff: "My lad is David for the same reason".
"Wayaye" says Geordie; "Young George, my lad as well, born on St. George's day".
Mick's not looking to happy as he puts his drink down with a bang, turns to the pool table and shouts;
"Come on Pancake we're out of here", ...............
Japhy Ryder you got in in one there, but I would add "selective myopia" as we tend to see ourselves in sharp relief but are completely blind to those things we'd rather forget about.
The biggest bigot I've ever met was a fellow Scot I'm ashamed to admit.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
An Englishman & an Irishman were seated next to a Scotsman, on an overseas flight.
After a few cocktails, the men began discussing their home lives.
"Last night I made love to my wife four times," the Englishman bragged, "and this morning she made me a delicious Full English Breakfast and she told me how much she adored me."
"Ah, last night I made love to my wife six times," the Irishman responded, "and this morning she made me a wonderful Ulster Fry and told me she could never love another man."
When the Scotsman remained silent, the Englishman smugly asked, "And how many times did you make love to your wife last night?"
"Once," he replied.
"Only once?" the Englishman arrogantly snorted. "And what did she say to you this morning?"
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I love Braveheart. I like any movies that are inspired by historical events, esp. the 19th century and before.... guess I was born in the wrong time. Anyway, it's an entertaining movie. Not that it has anything to do much with the above posts....
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
You must be joking! Inspired by historical events? Get a history book and read about the real William Wallace.don't fall for Mel Gibson's Hollywood distortion of history. I've just been googleing some serious history sites and not one of them mentions Braveheart.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
What Braveheart the movie Robert Carlyle turned down because he did not want to play a 'hairy-ass highlander running up a hill?' But then it could have been Rob Roy.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The funny thing about William Wallace was that he wasn't a highlander, nor hairy arsed either (well no more hairy arsed than his contemporaries), there is much hogwash associated with Wallace but what is known would have made for a better movie IMO.
It's though that the name Wallace comes from Weilash (my anglo saxon spelling isn't what it could be) the derogatory term used by anglo saxon speaking britons and where the name Wales comes from. Why would a Welshman be living in Scotland, well because the Strathclyde britons (like the irish & scots gale) shared the same language as the people who became the welsh, various forms of ancient british (p celtic which never fully turned into middle welsh in scotland). So he was a scottish Taffie. Andrew Murray on the other hand was a hairy arsed heelander.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
One reason I never considered joining the Caledonian Society after I moved to Hamburg (from Dundee, having lived there since I was 9 months old...) was that I long ago decided to never be part of a group who's main focus is defining itself by who is _not_ part of it.
And I still remember the stupid Tw*t who on a Hamburg UBahn station platform (Borgweg) tried to accuse me of being French and said that he was personally insulted that I was wearing "his" national dress. From Glasgow, I believe, if my memory serves me still?
Where does this need come from to try to tell other people that they are "not really Scots"?
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Even the local Constabulary can't recognise a true Scotsman when they see one........
Erin Go Bragh
Lyric as sung by Dick Gaughan
"Ma name's Duncan Campbell fae the shire o Argyll
A've traivellt this country for mony's the mile
A've traivellt thro Irelan, Scotlan an aa
An the name A go under's bauld Erin-go-Bragh
Ae nicht in Auld Reekie A walked doun the street
Whan a saucy big polis A chanced for tae meet
He glowert in ma face an he gied me some jaw
Sayin whan cam ye owre, bauld Erin-go-Bragh?
Well, A am not a Pat tho in Irelan A've been
Nor am A a Paddy tho Irelan A've seen
But were A a Paddy, that's nothin at aa
For thair's mony's a bauld hero in Erin-go-Bragh
Well A know ye're a Pat by the cut o yer hair
Bit ye aa turn tae Scotsmen as sune as ye're here
Ye left yer ain countrie for brakin the law
An we're seizin aa stragglers fae Erin-go-Bragh
An were A a Pat an ye knew it wis true
Or wis A the devil, then whit's that tae you?
Were it no for the stick that ye haud in yer paw
A'd show ye a game played in Erin-go-Bragh
An a lump o blackthorn that A held in ma fist
Aroun his big bodie A made it tae twist
An the blude fae his napper A quickly did draw
An paid him stock-an-interest for Erin-go-Bragh
Bit the people cam roun like a flock o wild geese
Sayin catch that daft rascal he's killt the police
An for every freen A had A'm shair he had twa
It wis terrible hard times for Erin-go-Bragh
Bit A cam tae a wee boat that sails in the Forth
An A packed up ma gear an A steered for the North
Fareweill tae Auld Reekie, yer polis an aa
An the devil gang wi ye says Erin-go-Bragh
Sae come aa ye young people, whairever ye're from
A don't give a damn tae whit place ye belang
A come fae Argyll in the Heilans sae braw
Bit A ne'er took it ill bein caad Erin-go-Bragh"
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Maybe I missed another reference to this in scanning quickly down this post, but wasn't it the Duke of Wellington who, when called Irish, (he was raised near Trim, Co. Meath) said "just because you're born in a sty doesn't make you a pig".
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Except for the people who were already living here before Christopher Columbus was born, all of my ancestors came here (the United States) from England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales while this was still a British colony.
Considering how much my ancestors fought amongst themselves and with each other, I have to ask whether or not I should be at war with myself?
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
People who say they are Scottish or Irish don't actually believe they are. They are avoiding stating the obvious that - they are Irish American ( or otherwise). They know they are American. They're just expressing they have an ancestral connection.
Yes some people have an interest in their family history and that brings them back to the old country. But some people in the old country want to know their family's history too. My grandmother's cousin in Clare did a lot research into the family history and loves going to the "clan reunions".
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
this is funny:
"your not scottish, you are american/canadian. " as if the two were equally interchangeable!!...but I think most American and Canadians would note that there are many differences between the two countries despite sharing the same continent.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Of course Americans and Canadians are different. Yes we share a continent and both speak English (though our English uses a mixture of British spelling and French words, and Canadian-French is one of our languages, so even there it's not the same as Americans), but that's where the similarities end. How hypocritical of siol to say that; I'm sure he would have a comment or two if I were to lump Scottish/English together like that.
I realize this thread is pretty much done but I had some petty, childish desire to throw my two cents in (this site seems to do that to people).
By the way, my grandparents and all their relatives are from Scotland.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I agree with what Kheelch said... I know I'm Canadian and proud of it, but I often express my Scottish "ancestral connection". I have two great grand fathers who immigrated to Nova Scotia from Scotland, one on my father's side, the other on my mother's side. There is nothing wrong with identifying with the"old country", in my opinion. It's a part of who I am.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Speaking as a Scot with an interest in traditional music - and with this as a site specifically dedicated to Irish traditional music, I have one thing to say regarding this thread.... WTF?
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Hey Ron, since you turned old, your no fun any more!
But seriously Ron, I know it's all absolute nonsense, but I just find it a little more interesting than the endless Bodhran Bashing threads that keep turning up here.
Jennamafer wrote:
"I have two great grand fathers who immigrated to Nova Scotia from Scotland, one on my father's side, the other on my mother's side."
Hey, so exactly how many sides does your family actually have then, Jennamafer?
Sorry, just funnin'!
However, you also wrote:
"There is nothing wrong with identifying with the"old country", in my opinion. It's a part of who I am."
..... & of course there is nothing wrong with that, after all, they can't touch you for it!
However, I'm curious.
You see, I never actually met my Great Grandparents, so although I carry genetic material from them, I don't really feel they had any physical influence whatsoever on who I am as a person, today.
So even if they had been English, or Irish, or Welsh or Scots, I don't get any real sense that they affected who I am.
In fact, my maternal Grandfather was actually a born & bred Donegal man, but as he died when I was fairly young & I didn't really get a chance to know him to well, I don't feel he had any real bearing on who I am today, either.
On the other hand, I used to spend lots of time with my Scots paternal Grandparents, each week, & apart from their old country Scots accent & expressions, Scots dialect if you like, I was heavily influenced by them as people in so many ways, all through my formative years.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I can't so easily understand how you can feel so connected to ancestors, you never actually even met.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Oh ha ha Ptarmigan! What I meant to say and didn't do a very good job at it is that I have Scottish heritage on both sides of the family as opposed to just on my mother's or my father's
You make a good point, though. I have ancestors from other heritages, of course - Irish, French-Canadian, English even some Native American, but I don't feel as connected to them. And it’s probably because, as you point out, I have never actually met them. I have, however, met both of the great grandfather's that I mentioned. Although they passed away when I was young (one when I was five, the other when I was nine), I have inherited from them a great sense of pride to be of Scottish descent (granted, most of that I picked up from my grandparents, parents, and other relatives whom I spent more time around). Maybe that makes me a "plastic" or a wannabe, I don't know and quite frankly, I don't care.
Or.......maybe it's the fact that I am so doped-up on Robaxacet right now that I am typing absolute nonsense and cannot be held accountable for what I say and do …. yeah, let’s go with that...I think I'm going to go practice some tunes, now.....
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Just noticed that the original poster is suspended until 1 May. As he/she is a very recent new member (# 55734), at least under the present name, is this a record for the quickest suspension?
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Does it matter that there is a recognised ethnic grouping in Canada known as Scottish Canadians? In the same way as there are French Canadians? With a total population almost as big as that of Scotland? And that is regarded as a gross underestimate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Canadian
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Lissagriffin, could it be the original poster's personal description is rather violent and offensive, or could it just be that he cannot spell 'difference'. We seem to have had an influx of vulgar thugs who do not appear to know anything about music, sessions or simple manners.
On the rest of the subject, I have a Breton grandfather who died before I was born and so I alway deny any Celtic connection because the genetic inheritance is too small and the cultural influence nil.
I knew a Scotsman whose parents were Irish (one first generation the other second generation) but he was born and raised in Glasgow therefore as far as he was concerned he was a Scot. This is good enough for me.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I think it's very interesting that this thing has arisen, of people trying to claim that their ancestry makes them something they never actually were.
It's definitely a 20thc invention. People didn't make claim to their old ancestry much before that, they just got on with life.
I blame the motor-car, the aeroplane, and the internet, making worldwide travel and communication too easy.
By the way, my grandmother was half-Scots, half-Irish, and born in Barbados. What does that make me ? Oh, and HER mother was Old Mother Riley.....
The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I Came across a discussion on this forum where there was some fallacy and myths about the scots/irsh being a race of people. Also there was a false statment about being genetically scottish; both statements are false.
I would lke to clear this up -
The scots are not defined as a race through anthropology or scots law and european statutue. there is no racial differance between a scot, englishman, irishman or german etc. The scots are seperated by culture, geography and community, Therefore you cannot be scottish just because your ancestors were scottsh, the scots are not a race of people. We are a culture and nation.
I want to further pont out that am not referng to nationality or ctizenship; anyone can lve n scotland or ireland for a number of years and gain citizenship.
Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to adulthood. This allows scotland to change, form and mould your personality and character by scottish; culture, people, ideology, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, attitudes, worldview, kinship, community, behavioural traits, politics etc. etc. as well as all of our weaknesses and such.
Only these things makes you scottish. Culture and values such as these ones are not tangible and canot be passed down especially after several generations. They have to be lived in every day in order to be assimilated by them.
thank you
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
well said!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I'm an Australian with a Welsh first name, a German middle name, a Scottish last name and I play Irish music & Irish dance.
I'm soo confused.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by davydd
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"well said!"
No it wasn't!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Yea, that's all very well and technically correct but there's more too it than that. Most Scots or Irish who are not brought up in Scotland are where they are through diaspora. Many of them try to get close to their native culture, speak Gaelic and play the traditional music of the country of their recent origin. I was born and have always lived in the Scottish Islands but I would never deny the decedents of the thousands that were cleared from here to call themselves Scottish if that's what they want.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"brought up in Scotland" or Ireland of course
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Siol
try telling that to the people of Cape Breton some of whom [small number] are still native speakers of Scots Gaelic.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to adulthood. This allows scotland to change, form and mould your personality and character by scottish; culture, people, ideology, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, attitudes, worldview, kinship, community, behavioural traits, politics etc. etc. as well as all of our weaknesses and such."
So presumably the current generation of kids in Scotland, who have grown up watching TV, are all half breed English/American? Because that is the culture, ideology and worldview they have been brought up with.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by skreech
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"So presumably the current generation of kids in Scotland, who have grown up watching TV, are all half breed English/American? Because that is the culture, ideology and worldview they have been brought up with."
No it isnt, scottish children are brought up in scotland, fully immersed in scottish culture. Our culture doesnt come from the TV.
"try telling that to the people of Cape Breton some of whom [small number] are still native speakers of Scots Gaelic."
They are gaelic speaking canadians
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"people, ideology, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, attitudes, worldview, kinship, community, behavioural traits"
These are the cultural traits that make the scots who they are, what part of these traits are american/english in scotland ?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
So what is 'Scottish Culture' then? You can not disenfranchise tens of thousands of people based on such a obviously faulty definition .
The fact is that the family environment is every bit as defining of a persons culture as that of outside the family unit. A child of Scots heritage brought up in England with Scottish Parents is as Scottish as you are! You start with that kind of nonsense in the company of some friends of mine and you'd soon be shown the error of your ways!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
WTF has this discussion got to do with ITM?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ciarán.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"So what is 'Scottish Culture' then? You can not disenfranchise tens of thousands of people based on such a obviously faulty definition ."
Read my posts I have posted the values and attributes that make you scottish several tmes
"A child of Scots heritage brought up in England with Scottish Parents is as Scottish as you are!"
I disagree, as I have said before the scots are NOT a race you cannot be scottish through ancestry. The child would english, that s the culture that shaped and formed that child.
"You start with that kind of nonsense in the company of some friends of mine and you'd soon be shown the error of your ways!"
I am not looking for a fight and am not seekng to upset the balance of this forum, as am a newcomer, if you cant debate please dont bother replying to my posts.
cheers
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Once again, another person dictating what constitutes another's sense of identity. You are confusing nationality with cultural identification and ethnic heritage. We both agree there is no such thing as race. The human tree is such a spider web that the concept is ridiculous. However, cultural identification can be the very cornerstone to some people's sense of who they are in this world - simply because you claim it is a fallacy makes it no less real or valid to millions of people around the world. Your position speaks to a sense of "purity" and elitism which is very distasteful and arrogant. Culture is a choice.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Can I just say what a great privilege it is to have such a learned and generous contributor to this humble forum?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Bren
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I guess its to with the 'legitimacy' and 'ownership' of culture, who is 'in' the group and who is 'out'. Who can legitimately Interpret the music and who can not. Dividing us by our nationality or place of birth creates a hierarchy. Normally done by those who feel they deserve to be on 'top' of the hierarchy.
A far more legitimate concept would be based upon language, being fluent in the language of the Gael , and its metre, flow etc could help in playing the tunes in a more 'authentic' fashion.
This concept however is roundly condemned by the majority who cant speak the language!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan
If you want to get an idea of the sort of reaction this kind of discussion creates have a look at the "Nationality" thread of a couple of months ago. This is a red/blue/green/orange rag to a lot of people on this forum.. You really can't generalise without upsetting people some way (to generalise).
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Your position speaks to a sense of "purity" and elitism which is very distasteful and arrogant. Culture is a choice."
It has nothing to do wth elitism or purity, It is a matter of fact. you are either scottish or not. You are NOT scottish unless you were rased in scotland.
calling yourself scottish when you were born and raised n america or canada is ridiculous and all the scots I have met thnk so equally.
Before embarking on a trip to north america was warned by family and frends about the ntensly irritating skaddish americans and plastic paddies. making such ridiculous claims.
where do you get the audacity to tell a scotsman what makes someone scottish when you are an american or canadian.
If you came to scotland loudly exclamed in your scottish accent ' i am scottish ' what do you think the scots around would think.
your not scottish, you are american/canadian. why do you fantasize about being scottish so much, i gaurantee you if you came to scotland and stayed here a while you would realize how unscottish you are.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Maybe your referring to another thread that I've commented on and, if so which part of British gene implies a Scottish gene? We are 80% of us distantly related and the trail seems to lead through France Iberia & across North Africa. In Arabic, words like "knife", "upon you" and one or two others are quite similar to Scots Gaelic. Coincidence perhaps, as the piping tradition maybe to, of say Egypt.
I agree to some extent aka modern culture, as I personally know a fair few cultural Scots & Irish by your measure, because of exposure to our way or the Irish way of doing things and this comes from living and growing in those countries. Even within our country (Scotland) there are cultural differences; from the north south east west and the isles, so just what is a Scot? In the modern context a scot is someone who lives within the modern confines of Scotland, in the other thread some people were highlighting the fact that our culture is not that dissimilar to those next door. The difference between the four nations of these isles is far less than the difference between us (collective noun) and say a middle eastern Arab or the Spaniards, for example. This in part stems from sharing broader cultural similarities which come from exposure to each other and the fact that modern borders are political rather than racial. You can't rub a culture or language out in a generation or three, it's been tried and culture has proven stronger.
As mentioned by others I've no issue with folk coming and making their homes here or wishing to identify with themselves with us. I have a fairly, perhaps naive even, idea of what personifies us Scots (apart from Calvin and his dour "work & don't smile" form of dourness). For me Freedom Come all Ye and a Mans a Man go some way toward my ideals. My door is open and my experience has taught me people are the same the world over and have much experience to draw on.
It's all in the name though ; )
as-salaamu `alaykum
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan:
"No it isnt, scottish children are brought up in scotland, fully immersed in scottish culture. Our culture doesnt come from the TV"
Well you must live in a different Scotland to me. And if your Scotland is that far up it's own arris it would explain why, despite having been here for four generations, my wife's family (and many others in this area) still refer to themselves as 'Galloway Irish', and consider being called Scottish an insult.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by skreech
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Well you must live in a different Scotland to me. And if your Scotland is that far up it's own arris it would explain why, despite having been here for four generations, my wife's family (and many others in this area) still refer to themselves as 'Galloway Irish', and consider being called Scottish an insult."
All scottish children are culturally american/english ?
crap, crap what on earth are you talking about ?????
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
See, this type of thread annoys everyone. Skreech - " still refer to themselves as 'Galloway Irish', and consider being called Scottish an insult."
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ha ha. Here we go again. Hilarious.
The only real North Americans live on reservations and now run casinos. The rest are interlopers, which is why we all hyphenate, and quite rightly so. Hey paleface, go tell a Seminole you're an American. Funny stuff.
So, people recognize their cultural heritage here. It's just how it's done. You can like it or not, it still 'is'.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Sorry, didn't mean for that to come off so feisty. Must be Monday morning.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
still refer to themselves as 'Galloway jobby jabbing spud eating scum'
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I am happy to debate, I was simply making a point that the culture we grow up in, our family, is much stronger than the culture of schooling. At least in the formative years . I agree schooling can have a powerful effect but it by no means supersedes the formative bonding and cultural conditioning that goes on within the family unit. I was pointing out that the identity and culture of the child of Scots parents is not negotiable within that familly unit.
Conversely People can disown the culture they were brought up in in favour of a 'better one' as was done in Cape Breton for example, where the language and culture was denigrated in favour of the English, the language of prosperity when compared to the subsistence lifestyle of their parents.
<< "So what is 'Scottish Culture' then? You can not disenfranchise tens of thousands of people based on such a obviously faulty definition ."
Read my posts I have posted the values and attributes that make you scottish several tmes>>
No you posted this;
>>culture, people, ideology, beliefs, sense of inward and outward perceptions, attitudes, worldview, kinship, community, behavioural traits, politics etc. etc. as well as all of our weaknesses and such.>>
I said 'what is Scottish culture' and you reply, why its Scottish culture!
My point was there is no one Scottish Culture' there are many many different branches. The Culture of a Lad From the Gorbals is very different to that of one from Bernaray
"A child of Scots heritage brought up in England with Scottish Parents is as Scottish as you are!"
I disagree, as I have said before the scots are NOT a race you cannot be scottish through ancestry. The child would english, that s the culture that shaped and formed that child.
IMO you are mistaken. They are formed by the dominant culture around them ;The family culture.
What is 'English ' Culture anyhow? once again it doesnt exist apart from a broad concept that includes many many different people.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Siol - it's all within the context I suppose. I can think of no sane person who, when stepping off the plane in Glasgow from Canada or America and speaking with an affected accent would expect to be greeted as a fellow Scot. That is indeed ludicrous. However, it is VERY common in America and elsewhere amongst the diaspora for the children of immigrants to refer to themselves by their ethnic heritage. Celebration of one's ethnic heritage does not negate or change their opinions on nationality. Those are two different things.
It seemed to me you were trying to mock and condemn all those people around the world who still have a great attachment to the land where the ancestors came from. If I misread you, you have my apology. I personally have no issue with someone who celebrates their ethnicity by saying they are proud to be Scottish/ Irish/Mexican/ Italian/Polish/Nigerian etc, even if they were not born in that country. I think your obvious disdain for these folks is your issue - not theirs.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Oh dear
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Oh dear" directed at siol nan air clannan
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Siol, your last post is disgraceful and revolting.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"IMO you are mistaken. They are formed by the dominant culture around them ;The family culture.
What is 'English ' Culture anyhow? once again it doesnt exist apart from a broad concept that includes many many different people."
english regional culture that is part of englsh culture, do start degeneratng into pathetic semantics.
*a group of scottish men drinkng in a pub; door opens and an american walks in; exclaims loudly in amercan accent' he yall im skaddish' followed by irrelevent descrption of clan that has not existed for over 200 years; scotsman rolls eyes and thinks 'fecking yank idiot;
the above is an accurate description of what scots think of root seeking skaddish amercans.
where do you get this idea that the scots would actually consider you as a fellow scot.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
This all reminds me of the movie Good Fellas, where Henry Hill could not become a "made man" because he didn't have pure Italian blood - he was half-Irish.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
True Scots:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00671/rangers1_671203n.jpg
Fantasist:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07_01/RodStewartPA0607_468x1129.jpg
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Bren
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
With a name like seed of the big little extended family he's not from your neck of the woods Bogman
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
http://www.clanmackayusa.org/Games/07Tucson14MackaysAtClanTent.JPG
twits
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Oh no Siol! Don't give in to the dark side with name calling - we were having such a nice chat until then! I must say for your first post here, you've done quite well for yourself. Everyone's blood pressure is elevated, name calling has quickly ensued and the debate has rapidly slid into emotional rants.
Outstanding work son. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to put on my shamrock covered tuxedo and drink green beer at my local. Peace out, y'all
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-u3tYJxX_E&feature=PlayList&p=A1BFE5A96BD1AB79&index=5
The black watch play, watch at 1:38 when they are taking this p*ss out of americans claming to be skaddish
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by siol nan air clannan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I suspect these observations are coloured by the Plastic Paddy / Plastic Highlander syndrome of lots of New World people descending on Ireland and Scotland and being a bit over the top in their display of ethnic credentials. And I gather Salmond is trying to up the numbers visiting, right now.
The English are spared this, as English emigrants were less close-knit, not clan-based to the same extent at home, and not forced out by particular large-scale traumas such as the Famine and the Clearances. So it's a dimension of nationality (real or disputed) we see less of.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"WTF has this discussion got to do with ITM?'
Well, it's certainly a lot more interesting than yet another yawn inspiring ... 'let's bash the Bodhran player' thread!
A Scot who is brought up in Australia, by Scottish parents, will still clearly spend a huge % of their time with Oz kids in & out of school & watch Oz TV, so although they may be influenced to a certain extent by the their parent's culture, I reckon they're still going to think of themselves as Australian, whether they play the bagpipes & wear a kilt, or not.
Same surely, for a kid whose parents are Irish, but who is actually brought up in America ... they're American, obviously.
I've immersed myself in Irish Music for nigh on 40 years now & have actually lived in Ireland for getting on for 30 years in total, but I simply cannot escape my upbringing.
Reared in Scotland, by Scottish parents, amongst Scots till an adult, I am, always will be & am quite happy to be a Scot & it really doesn't matter how much of some other culture I surround myself with, a Scot I will be till the day I die.
I don't believe you can adopt a culture, like just putting on a different coat. I love Irish Music but I can never be Irish & it wouldn't matter if I also learned to Set Dance, speak Irish etc etc etc
This term Gael is interesting too. I don't speak a word of Gaelic so for me, going up into the Gaelic N.W. of Scotland is almost like going to a different country.
It's like the Gaels are a different kind of Scot from the Scots of the East coast & of the Borders folk.
So although we all think of ourselves as being Scottish, culturally we are also very different. So there is not a single all-defining Scottish culture, but rather regional variations that make up the whole picture.
So I guess what I'm saying is, the cultural values I have which make me culturally proud to think of myself as a Scot are, as a lowlander, without doubt rather different from the values that the Western Isles Gael has, or the person reared in Orkney or Shetland.
One thing that really does annoy me though, is this ferkin weird notion that some culture-nutters have, that if you can play Scottish Music, or dance a Highland Fling or speak Gaelic or wear tartan all the time, then magically you are somehow MORE Scottish, than the Scotsman next to you who can't do any of those things, but may still value them, but has his own special interests!
These buck eejits really get on my T!T$.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Catching up on posts above my last, the discourse *definitely* seems to be informed by the Plastic Whatsit phenomenon!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by nicholas
The dif france between beings
After a quiet weekend in mustardland I see Monday is starting off with plenty of adrenaline. Welcome back.
sleepyhead
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I think maybe differAnce is a reference to Derrida.
Or perhaps not. Reading all of this is just about as pointless. Conversations about blood generally seem to end up with people covered in it.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan:
Why do you feel motivated to prescribe how others should define themselves?
It is perfectly possibly for someone brought up in scotland, immersed from birth in scottish culture, to not feel particularly scottish. There are such people who think of themselves solely as british or european or citizen-of-the-world.
Similarly it is possible to grow up in cape breton in a scottish gaelic culture and identify oneself as (both) scottish and canadian (for example). For some reason this appears unacceptable to you.
Different people brought up in the same conditions will have different identities re culture and nationality. For some reason you appear to feel the need to set out rules for everyone to follow.
To me it seems like the problem is basically yours. Chill out, let people define themselves how they wish.
>Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does >having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be >scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to >adulthood
I have a problem with this as it denies immigrants any scottish identity (should they wish it). What about all those people fromother cultures who settled here. None of them are Scottish in your schematic. Seems rather exclusive. Not the kind of definition I'd like enshrined anywhere.
But the basic problem is that you seen to see inheritance as purely biogical with no cultural componet. After pointing out that
any genetic basis for a separate scottish or irish "race" is spurious, you appear to extrapolate from this that no inheritance can be passed on down the generations. This is absurd. we don't just inherit out genes from our parents (ot whoever brings us up) , but also a set of cultural values and tastes, which we may well reject. This is obvious and undeniable if you look at the simple example of religion. Generally handed down through the generations regardless of immigration until some individual makes the decision to go apostate. No bilogical component there, but clear inheritance of a cultural trait.
The race/genetic issue is a strawman.
but above all, why are you bothered by how someone else choses to identify themselves?
- chris
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Not much point in commenting any further on this thread as I hope and expect it to go the way of the Dodo along with siol nan air clannan.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Read up on your history. The questions of "where do I belong" both culturally, regionally, ethnically, and racially" started from the beginning of time. I wonder why someone would care so much about how another identifies oneself. Learn who you are. That's what matters. It's all labels. To most, I'm a "white American". I consider myself American by country/geographic affiliation; "racially"/ethnically I come from many traditions (Irish, Scottish, Polish, German, and Shawnee). When I say I'm "Irish" to someone, I'm speaking of ancestoral history (or Polish, etc.). I don't feel it's necessary to go back through eons of time and define myself any other way.... if you want to get technical about it all, we're all from the same source, in some way, shape, or form anyhow. It's an interesting discussion... very thought-provoking. However, if I go to Scotland one of these days (I'm a poor musician, poet and teacher, so that won't be anytime soon, I'm sure), I don't really care whether the locals recognize my "heritage" or not. I'm there for the scenery and Islay Malt Whiskey!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Thinking about it, you haven't just sat through an undergraduate anthropology lecture on race by any chance?
I'm afraid the tome of your opening message does sound rather like you've been given a set of definitions on a plate.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"tone"
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
So your true feelings about "Braveheart" ? 1. Movie Theatre 2. Rental 3. Late night movie... 4. Not having any of that. ?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by lamh trom
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
personally i have never watched braveheart, nor do I have any desire to do so.
guess that makes ma 4
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ptarmy: in what way are you scottish (beyond identifying with that label?) How would you have been different had you been brought up elsewhere?
And why do we still f**k about worrying about how other people define themselves.
Is a scot any less of a scot if some other people (who I don't happen to have a very high opinion of either) go about saying they're "skaddish"? So what? Let 'em. It's completely harmless.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Tirno
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Yes, this one's the touchstone:
Or rather, I'll light the touchpaper:-
...Is Mel Gibson a Scot?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
No, he's an actor.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Does this thread smell like trolling?
You must be desperately insecure to care so much how other people define themselves. "Race," "nationality," "identity," etc. are ALL social constructs, so how people construct it for themselves is up to them. If you had Scottish/Irish/Mexican/Nigerian/whatever grandparents and define yourself as such even though you grew up in a different country, the so what? Why should this bother anyone else, although apparently it annoys the neurotic and insecure citizens of the nation you identify with, who feel that they should be entitled to define who gets to be a member of their state. Identity is a fluid thing.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Mel is an Aussie.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Différance
Thanks for the clarification pavlf. ~
Différance
Jacques Derrida
http://hydra.humanities.uci.edu/derrida/diff.html
I'll read it later. Must go to work now.
Cheers!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I love Braveheart. I like any movies that are inspired by historical events, esp. the 19th century and before.... guess I was born in the wrong time. Anyway, it's an entertaining movie. Not that it has anything to do much with the above posts....
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Ptarmy: in what way are you scottish (beyond identifying with that label?)
How would you have been different had you been brought up elsewhere?"
Tirno, are you trying to say that I'd be exactly the same person, even if I'd been brought up in Bombay, or Hong Kong, or Alice Springs?
.......That's absurd!
Of course your whole living environment, during those very impresionable & formative first 18/20 years of your life, has a huge influence on who you are, for the rest of your life.
I have no doubt at all, if I'd been whisked away to Abu Dhabi or Shanghai at the age of two or three, I would indeed have a very different outlook.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I have for a long while advocated the concept of a Jurassic Park-like containment approach to Scotland, in hopes of preserving the remarkable ‘Scottish’ prototype. One would wish to keep it unsullied—a breed apart.
This approach has already worked well in Minnesota, Manitoba, and Paraguay. Escapes are few, and the rare escapee is quickly and easily identified, tagged, then returned and released (following a good, stern lecture).
You are likely asking, what’s to prevent a rogue Scot from inflating eight sheep bladders with helium and drifting to, say, Norway? Radar, and determined coastal watch volunteers. God's help, too.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
We keep trying with California but they still keep coming and building their swimming pools in the Denver metro area.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
This is just a musing: but I think in America, we tend to identify ourselves according to our ancestral heritage because most Americans are not just one "race" or "ethnicity" as SOME Europoeans, Asians, and Africans (etc.) are. I think the idea of associating oneself inherently an irrevocably to their land is not one that many Americans identify with (unless, of course you are from a farming culture (or even rural.. owning many acres) and are dependant on that land. America is a country of Immigrants that isn't very old; whereas Europe, Asia and Africa's immigrants have been imbedded into the fabric of the land for much longer. Most of us, also, have not bled for our land. We have other people do that for us and just enjoy the perks. So, the point is, I guess, is that your sense of "belonging" is very relative.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Identity is a fluid thing."
Aye, but the question is surely ...... how fluid?
I can only speak for myself when I say, I know that it wouldn't matter how long I lived in Ireland. After 30 years I don't feel any less a Scot & I know that even after another 30, I'm sure I'd still feel the same.
However, I still have my Scottish accent & I know some folks can actually almost lose their own accent, after just 2 weeks on holiday in another country!
So perhaps they're the sort of folks who can quite easily shed their one identity & adopt another, but I'm afraid I'm not a Chameleon.
I don't really understand those folks, who are brought up somewhere, but perhaps through feelings of insecurity, long to belong to another country &/or another culture.
That's a little sad, isn't it.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Silver—
You must bewitch Los Californios with tales of the wonders of Albuquerque and/or Portland, contrasting those with tales of the horrors of Larimer Street in Denver.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Desperately seeking relevance here....
To tie this back to chunes... ....does anyone have the right sheet music for The Scotsman Over the Border?
I have a fabulous recording of it, and would *love* to learn how to play it the right way.
There are so many versions of it online, but which one is the right one? And how can I know if the version on my CD is even right?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by browndog
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Is that maybe "Blue Bonnets Over the border" ?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Born and brought up in England...I blame my parents for moving there, but that's where the work was. Maybe I was conceived in Scotland. My dad's never worn a kilt, played the bagpipes, spoken Gaelic etc etc but would still refer to himself as Scottish. Maybe he's never so happy as when he's miserable, being brought up in the Presbyterian ways of the 1940s and 1950s. So I have to settle for British of Scottish ancestory, or whatevr the tick boxes on the forms offer me. Couldn't ever bring myself to put English. But that's another discussion.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by minijackpot
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
@browndog:
I'm sure both Blue Bonnets Over The Border (the Scottish tune) and The Scotsman Over The Border (the Irish jig) are in the database here.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Rising, I can't understand why you would have a problem ticking the English box? I don't think that's another discussion at all, I think it may well be relevant.
Also, I don't know why you say your Dad must be miserable, to want to refer to himself as Scottish! Perhaps you could elaborate?
Oh & just for the record, one of my heroes was an Englishman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wheatstone
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Yep nicholas both are the same tune and it there right enough, though in the Atholl aka Fraser/Stecher driven Bow setting it's played in B flat just to keep things interesting.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Nicholas, you may be interested to know that in 'The Athole Collection', the tune on page 19 is:
'Blue Bonnets Over the Border'.
It is a Reel in the key of A Major.
While the tune on page 229 is:
'Blue Bonnets Ow'r the Border'.
This tune is in the Country Dance section & it is a 6/8 & it is in B-flat major!
So which one were you after?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I realised the other reason why I don't like this:
>Being born in Scotland does not make you scottish, nor does >having scottish parents make you scottish. You can only be >scottish if you were raised in scotland from an early age to >adulthood
It implies that the children of immegramts brought up in scotland cannot consider themselves as Polish or Indian or Pakistani etc.
i.e. it is Norman Tebbit's Cricket test reworded slightly.
Siol, you and Norman are welcome to one and other.
But I doubt very much that feelingw arm in Norman's embrace is a universal Scottish trait
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ptarmy: obviously shanghai or something like that would be more exotic, but scotland vs ireland vs england. I'd say you pretty much get to choose. And then, as someone mentioned, you get as much intra-scot difference as you might between a scot and an irishman.
Although accent is a strong identifier - I've never lived in england, but identify as English and Swiss - even now that I live in France. I have a swiss french accent and an east-midlands english accent.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Tirno
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I don't understand why anyone would want to be Scottish. Wear a skirt in a windy climate, eat disgusting haggis all day, make a horrible screeching on the bagpipes and still be ruled by a silly old English bitch. After what he endured for Scottish freedom Mel Gibson must be turning over in his grave.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Burnt Nial
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Ignoring the silly post .......
" .. but scotland vs ireland vs england. I'd say you pretty much get to choose."
An interesting idea Tirno.
So you are basically saying that likewise, if you were born in Switzerland, Austria or Germany you pretty much get to choose where you actually belong & nobody has a problem with that.
I wonder if that is the case in Scandinavia too. Perhaps there also, it doesn't matter if you were born in Denmark, Norway or Sweden, you can just choose your own homeland.
Does that work in the Iberian peninsula too, I wonder.
Maybe it really is a common market after all!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
All the au natural Gaelic speaking Cape Bretoners I know and have met over the years consider themselves to be Cape Bretoners first and foremost then Canadians.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I have had contact with prime Scottish culture from the early days of my youth onward.
I went to see Hamish Imlach at the local folk club when I was only fourteen.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by kuec
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Rising Fawn, I would love to see the tick box that says 'English', but there's no such thing. You're British, or you're 'ethnic', as far as officialdom is concerned.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I don't recall anywhere other than Scotland where the questions "Where are you from" and "Where do you stay (i.e. live)" are so often paired, and different answers regarded as the norm.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by David50
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I have to say the funniest thing I ever saw in Scotland was the statue of Mel Gibson in braveheart attire, I think it was at Stirling castle.
Wots all that about...
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Andyras1
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The funniest part of Braveheart was the scene with the kilted Highland piper on a hill playing away, with lovely Scottish mountain scenery behind him and you hear the sound of, yes, the uilleann pipes. Fecking brilliant.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
A few weeks ago, I was in a restaurant in St Louis where a young gal from Sligo was waiting on tables. Inevitably, as she stopped at each table, each American family seated there would comment on her accent and then recite their entire "Irish" family tree to her. She would smile and politely exchange pleasantries. This scene was repeated at least three times while I was there.
Later I asked her if she had grown weary of this sort of behavior, and she said no, not at all. She took it as a compliment, and furthermore understood how in a nation made up of people from other places, the need to connect to "ancient tribes" as she put it was quite normal. I thought that was a rather refreshing perspective.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
siol nan air clannan-
Why do so many people from Britain and Ireland have this hang up?
Because a few harmless folks want to get in touch with what they perceive as a thier 'cultural ancestry' you guys have a fit beating your chests, plastic paddying your loud dumb ass outrage at 'those' people who take an interest in the culture of the place that thier ancesters came from.
I think that you and people like you are a s s h ol e s. Especially because you do it on an internet chat/forum. There's an AMERICAN word for that it starts with a 'P' and ends with a 'Y' and it aint plastic fkin' paddy.
And what are the aspects 'SCOTTISH' culture that yer all so priveleged to be inundated with. American rap music, English TV and touristy trappings of Irish Gaelic culture right?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by shanty
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
LOL - you tell 'em Shanty! However, this grief isn't just from Scotland and Ireland. My good friend of Brazilian ancestry just returned from Rio and they didn't appreciate or understand his hyphenated identity either.
Let's face it - once we leave the "motherland" we can never go back....
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"I went to see Hamish Imlach at the local folk club when I was only fourteen"
Ah yes, Hamish Imlach, the Calcutta-born "folksinger" who sang some American blues and gospel when I saw him ... pure Scottish of course.
And very funny
I remember thinking at the time Norman Tebbit proposed his infamous test that few, if any, of his fellow English in Australia would pass such a test.
There is also an assumption that identity in a New World country such as the USA , Canada or Australia is a simple matter, but it isn't. For example, the Irish diaspora who emigrated en masse in the mid-1800s in the wake of famines and failed rebellions and suppression of their religion and culture (Catholic Emancipation was still a living memory) fought tenaciously in early political life the USA and Australia to have the freedom to practice that religion and culture and to resist domination by the WASP establishment of the sort that they had just escaped from. Some of them even tried a Fenian invasion of Canada at one point, and the young colony of New South Wales was in a tizzy when a "Fenian" apparently tried to assassinate some British Royal on a visit. Such political and social currents were resisted strenuously by the establishment who saw "Fenianism" as a real threat to the growing colonies and nation-states, and the identities of the diaspora and their descendants were forged from such lively history.
What I'm saying is that American, or Australian or Canadian identity isn't some bland neutral consensus that people can just adopt but is, even today, a tussle between competing immigrant cultures and mixtures of cultures.
It's a pity so many young Irish and Scots are ignorant of these things and merely express annoyance at the "plastics" who aren't as prevalent as the ranters would have you believe anyway
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Bren
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I'm amazed at how many times it comes up on this forum. Here's a guy tellin' someone born in SCOTLAND that he can't call himself a Scot! And it's so easy to post crap like that on an internet forum. He'd never do it to the guys face probably. And then the bit about being brought up in 'Scottish culture'. Where's that happen? Scottish ideology? The fck is that? If I was in a bar I'd be screaming at him to give me an answer. On this forum he can sneak away....
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by shanty
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
"Brave Liver" is the tale of Irish hero Moon Murphy, whose singlehanded draining of the casks spared the delicate livers of the entire population of County Louth.
Braveheart, Braveschmart.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
BraveErse : the true story of a man who bought a seat in the open corner section at Pittodrie in the middle of February
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Bren
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The three men starving men staggered out of the woods and came upon a dying bull. The Scotsmen stepped up and said "My favorite football club is Hearts, so as a tribute to them, I'm gonna eat the heart of the beast." The Englishman stepped up and said "I support Liverpool, so as a tribute to them, I shall eat the liver."
After a bit, they turned to the Irishman and asked why he wasn't eating. "Well, my favorite football club is ARSEnal - urp, and I've suddenly lost me appetite..."
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Mel Colm-Cille Gerard Gibson
January 3, 1956 (1956-01-03) (age 53)
Peekskill, New York, United States
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Western culture tends to have a myopic view of who they really are.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Jock, Taff, Mick n Geordie are standing at the bar, Jock is telling the lads that his son playing pool is Andrew because he was born on St. Andrew's day.
Amazing says Taff: "My lad is David for the same reason".
"Wayaye" says Geordie; "Young George, my lad as well, born on St. George's day".
Mick's not looking to happy as he puts his drink down with a bang, turns to the pool table and shouts;
"Come on Pancake we're out of here", ...............
Japhy Ryder you got in in one there, but I would add "selective myopia" as we tend to see ourselves in sharp relief but are completely blind to those things we'd rather forget about.
The biggest bigot I've ever met was a fellow Scot I'm ashamed to admit.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
An Englishman & an Irishman were seated next to a Scotsman, on an overseas flight.
After a few cocktails, the men began discussing their home lives.
"Last night I made love to my wife four times," the Englishman bragged, "and this morning she made me a delicious Full English Breakfast and she told me how much she adored me."
"Ah, last night I made love to my wife six times," the Irishman responded, "and this morning she made me a wonderful Ulster Fry and told me she could never love another man."
When the Scotsman remained silent, the Englishman smugly asked, "And how many times did you make love to your wife last night?"
"Once," he replied.
"Only once?" the Englishman arrogantly snorted. "And what did she say to you this morning?"
"Don't stop."
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I love Braveheart. I like any movies that are inspired by historical events, esp. the 19th century and before.... guess I was born in the wrong time. Anyway, it's an entertaining movie. Not that it has anything to do much with the above posts....
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
You must be joking! Inspired by historical events? Get a history book and read about the real William Wallace.don't fall for Mel Gibson's Hollywood distortion of history. I've just been googleing some serious history sites and not one of them mentions Braveheart.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by dafydd
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
It was (unintentionally) a funny film though.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by dafydd
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
What Braveheart the movie Robert Carlyle turned down because he did not want to play a 'hairy-ass highlander running up a hill?' But then it could have been Rob Roy.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Cath
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The funny thing about William Wallace was that he wasn't a highlander, nor hairy arsed either (well no more hairy arsed than his contemporaries), there is much hogwash associated with Wallace but what is known would have made for a better movie IMO.
It's though that the name Wallace comes from Weilash (my anglo saxon spelling isn't what it could be) the derogatory term used by anglo saxon speaking britons and where the name Wales comes from. Why would a Welshman be living in Scotland, well because the Strathclyde britons (like the irish & scots gale) shared the same language as the people who became the welsh, various forms of ancient british (p celtic which never fully turned into middle welsh in scotland). So he was a scottish Taffie. Andrew Murray on the other hand was a hairy arsed heelander.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
One reason I never considered joining the Caledonian Society after I moved to Hamburg (from Dundee, having lived there since I was 9 months old...) was that I long ago decided to never be part of a group who's main focus is defining itself by who is _not_ part of it.
And I still remember the stupid Tw*t who on a Hamburg UBahn station platform (Borgweg) tried to accuse me of being French and said that he was personally insulted that I was wearing "his" national dress. From Glasgow, I believe, if my memory serves me still?
Where does this need come from to try to tell other people that they are "not really Scots"?
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Even the local Constabulary can't recognise a true Scotsman when they see one........
Erin Go Bragh
Lyric as sung by Dick Gaughan
"Ma name's Duncan Campbell fae the shire o Argyll
A've traivellt this country for mony's the mile
A've traivellt thro Irelan, Scotlan an aa
An the name A go under's bauld Erin-go-Bragh
Ae nicht in Auld Reekie A walked doun the street
Whan a saucy big polis A chanced for tae meet
He glowert in ma face an he gied me some jaw
Sayin whan cam ye owre, bauld Erin-go-Bragh?
Well, A am not a Pat tho in Irelan A've been
Nor am A a Paddy tho Irelan A've seen
But were A a Paddy, that's nothin at aa
For thair's mony's a bauld hero in Erin-go-Bragh
Well A know ye're a Pat by the cut o yer hair
Bit ye aa turn tae Scotsmen as sune as ye're here
Ye left yer ain countrie for brakin the law
An we're seizin aa stragglers fae Erin-go-Bragh
An were A a Pat an ye knew it wis true
Or wis A the devil, then whit's that tae you?
Were it no for the stick that ye haud in yer paw
A'd show ye a game played in Erin-go-Bragh
An a lump o blackthorn that A held in ma fist
Aroun his big bodie A made it tae twist
An the blude fae his napper A quickly did draw
An paid him stock-an-interest for Erin-go-Bragh
Bit the people cam roun like a flock o wild geese
Sayin catch that daft rascal he's killt the police
An for every freen A had A'm shair he had twa
It wis terrible hard times for Erin-go-Bragh
Bit A cam tae a wee boat that sails in the Forth
An A packed up ma gear an A steered for the North
Fareweill tae Auld Reekie, yer polis an aa
An the devil gang wi ye says Erin-go-Bragh
Sae come aa ye young people, whairever ye're from
A don't give a damn tae whit place ye belang
A come fae Argyll in the Heilans sae braw
Bit A ne'er took it ill bein caad Erin-go-Bragh"
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by John J.
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I take it the Homecoming is cancelled then.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by iain beag
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Maybe I missed another reference to this in scanning quickly down this post, but wasn't it the Duke of Wellington who, when called Irish, (he was raised near Trim, Co. Meath) said "just because you're born in a sty doesn't make you a pig".
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by macbox
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Well, when you've all decided what exactly constitutes a Scotsman, try this:
What's the the difference between a rich Scotsman, a poor Scotsman and a dead Scotsman?
1) A rich Scotsman has a canopy over his head.
2) A poor Scotsman has a can o' pee under his bed.
3) A dead Scotsman canna pee at all ...
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Is it the differance between owning a kilt and wearing one?
I thought about buying one myself but the £500 price tag put me off.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Hey 'Bouzouki' Dave, here's the Kilt for you:
http://wiki.phantis.com/images/thumb/a/a1/TRADITIONAL_GREEK_FOUSTANELLES.JPG/400px-TRADITIONAL_GREEK_FOUSTANELLES.JPG
Or maybe you'd prefer an Irish Kilt:
http://www.lindaclifford.com/TartanEmblem/IrishEmblKilt.jpg
Macbox, I lived near Trim for a couple of years & I must say, I like that part of the country.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Except for the people who were already living here before Christopher Columbus was born, all of my ancestors came here (the United States) from England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales while this was still a British colony.
Considering how much my ancestors fought amongst themselves and with each other, I have to ask whether or not I should be at war with myself?
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The Scottish supremacists should wear black kilts.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
....or brown.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
And if you're not sure which side of the Border you come from, get a Utilikilt!
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
People who say they are Scottish or Irish don't actually believe they are. They are avoiding stating the obvious that - they are Irish American ( or otherwise). They know they are American. They're just expressing they have an ancestral connection.
Yes some people have an interest in their family history and that brings them back to the old country. But some people in the old country want to know their family's history too. My grandmother's cousin in Clare did a lot research into the family history and loves going to the "clan reunions".
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Kheelch
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
this is funny:
"your not scottish, you are american/canadian. " as if the two were equally interchangeable!!...but I think most American and Canadians would note that there are many differences between the two countries despite sharing the same continent.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
The comedian Robin Williams once said "I'm half-Irish and half-English - that means every so often I have to occupy myself."
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Of course Americans and Canadians are different. Yes we share a continent and both speak English (though our English uses a mixture of British spelling and French words, and Canadian-French is one of our languages, so even there it's not the same as Americans), but that's where the similarities end. How hypocritical of siol to say that; I'm sure he would have a comment or two if I were to lump Scottish/English together like that.
I realize this thread is pretty much done but I had some petty, childish desire to throw my two cents in (this site seems to do that to people).
By the way, my grandparents and all their relatives are from Scotland.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Glass of Beer
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I agree with what Kheelch said... I know I'm Canadian and proud of it, but I often express my Scottish "ancestral connection". I have two great grand fathers who immigrated to Nova Scotia from Scotland, one on my father's side, the other on my mother's side. There is nothing wrong with identifying with the"old country", in my opinion. It's a part of who I am.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by jsmith
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Well said, Tasia!
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by jsmith
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Speaking as a Scot with an interest in traditional music - and with this as a site specifically dedicated to Irish traditional music, I have one thing to say regarding this thread.... WTF?
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Ron P
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Hey Ron, since you turned old, your no fun any more!
But seriously Ron, I know it's all absolute nonsense, but I just find it a little more interesting than the endless Bodhran Bashing threads that keep turning up here.
Jennamafer wrote:
"I have two great grand fathers who immigrated to Nova Scotia from Scotland, one on my father's side, the other on my mother's side."
Hey, so exactly how many sides does your family actually have then, Jennamafer?
Sorry, just funnin'!
However, you also wrote:
"There is nothing wrong with identifying with the"old country", in my opinion. It's a part of who I am."
..... & of course there is nothing wrong with that, after all, they can't touch you for it!
However, I'm curious.
You see, I never actually met my Great Grandparents, so although I carry genetic material from them, I don't really feel they had any physical influence whatsoever on who I am as a person, today.
So even if they had been English, or Irish, or Welsh or Scots, I don't get any real sense that they affected who I am.
In fact, my maternal Grandfather was actually a born & bred Donegal man, but as he died when I was fairly young & I didn't really get a chance to know him to well, I don't feel he had any real bearing on who I am today, either.
On the other hand, I used to spend lots of time with my Scots paternal Grandparents, each week, & apart from their old country Scots accent & expressions, Scots dialect if you like, I was heavily influenced by them as people in so many ways, all through my formative years.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I can't so easily understand how you can feel so connected to ancestors, you never actually even met.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Oh ha ha Ptarmigan! What I meant to say and didn't do a very good job at it is that I have Scottish heritage on both sides of the family as opposed to just on my mother's or my father's
You make a good point, though. I have ancestors from other heritages, of course - Irish, French-Canadian, English even some Native American, but I don't feel as connected to them. And it’s probably because, as you point out, I have never actually met them. I have, however, met both of the great grandfather's that I mentioned. Although they passed away when I was young (one when I was five, the other when I was nine), I have inherited from them a great sense of pride to be of Scottish descent (granted, most of that I picked up from my grandparents, parents, and other relatives whom I spent more time around). Maybe that makes me a "plastic" or a wannabe, I don't know and quite frankly, I don't care.
Or.......maybe it's the fact that I am so doped-up on Robaxacet right now that I am typing absolute nonsense and cannot be held accountable for what I say and do …. yeah, let’s go with that...I think I'm going to go practice some tunes, now.....
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by jsmith
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Just noticed that the original poster is suspended until 1 May. As he/she is a very recent new member (# 55734), at least under the present name, is this a record for the quickest suspension?
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Does it matter that there is a recognised ethnic grouping in Canada known as Scottish Canadians? In the same way as there are French Canadians? With a total population almost as big as that of Scotland? And that is regarded as a gross underestimate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Canadian
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
Lissagriffin, could it be the original poster's personal description is rather violent and offensive, or could it just be that he cannot spell 'difference'. We seem to have had an influx of vulgar thugs who do not appear to know anything about music, sessions or simple manners.
On the rest of the subject, I have a Breton grandfather who died before I was born and so I alway deny any Celtic connection because the genetic inheritance is too small and the cultural influence nil.
I knew a Scotsman whose parents were Irish (one first generation the other second generation) but he was born and raised in Glasgow therefore as far as he was concerned he was a Scot. This is good enough for me.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by Cath
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
I think it's very interesting that this thing has arisen, of people trying to claim that their ancestry makes them something they never actually were.
It's definitely a 20thc invention. People didn't make claim to their old ancestry much before that, they just got on with life.
I blame the motor-car, the aeroplane, and the internet, making worldwide travel and communication too easy.
By the way, my grandmother was half-Scots, half-Irish, and born in Barbados. What does that make me ? Oh, and HER mother was Old Mother Riley.....
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The differance between having scottish hertage and being a scot
a pirate? yar!
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by airport