I kept thinking about how much you'd have to pay to get me to jump around and act all overly-dramatic like that. I haven't come up with an appropriate sum yet.
As far as the artistic merits, well, I, uh, er...at least the girls were pretty?
Sadly, so many people want to learn Irish music because of stuff like this, Riverdance, and stuff like Celtic Women. I thought it was horrible; I could not even watch it the whole way through. I think I had a harder time actually watching it, than listening to it.
For me, this is in the same category as Yanni, Andre Rieu, and Lawrence Welk. (though, to be fair, Lawrence Welk earned every nickel he ever had, and the first thirty years of his career were one-night gigs)
While it sounds somewhere between saccharine and sacrilege, I don't think that their intended audience are going to be hardcore classical or trad buffs.
It is tailor made for people who expect their music to follow the common formula. And kids have an expectation that folk music or classical is for old people, and is unlistenable, this is the sort of stuff that bridges the gap. Like those "hooked on classics" records back in the 80's. Terrible, but opened the music to a wider audience.
At the end of it, if it inspires 1 or 2 youngsters to pick up the instrument, where they wouldn't have before, then fair play, and if it inspires them to listen a little deeper, also fair play.
"Surely it's just one long horrible pastiche from start to finish"
Yes.
"Do they honestly expect to inspire admiration from practitioners of all the forms of music they murder in this tripe?"
I doubt it. It's pop music. They expect to draw a young, naive, audience that doesn't know a great deal about any of the musical genres (which, judging by the screams and cheers - and the comments in Youtube - they have succeded in doing) - and to earn some money out of it.
Perhaps a few of of their audience will be interested enough in one or other of the ingredients that make up this piece to look into them in greater depth and thus discover some real traditional or baroque or classical music.
Ah come on its grand! , Ok its not trad, its not classical, its a bunch of youngsters putting on a show and enjoying their music and life. Fair play to them. Who wants to watch a bunch of bearded oldies play the pure drop? I reckon you are getting too old PT! Its not sh*te, they can play, they understand theatre, they can put on a show. That's what it is, a show, pageant , a spectacular. The crowd loved it, thats what matters to them ! Its exciting lively modern fusion. Not my pint of porter but let em have their fun!
This is something I usually write around St. PAts Day!
Short of getting into duplicating Baroque, Madrigals and such with period intruments and silly costumes, ITM is as pure as Music gets. (note the capital 'M')
People can play it on all sorts of Human powered instruments, in places where the nearest electrical outlet may be in another zipcode. The musician brings the interpretaion and articulation to equation.
A freind and I had this conversation the other day on another topic. My Response was you are not suffering from aging....your sense of humor is being challenged.
Zipp...I guess it's the buffet approach -- all you can listen too and then some....but there are so many of these in North America...as if they clone them or something. Isn't "Bowfire" another one? And I'm sure there's yet another version playing every summer in Charlottetown PEI...it's name escapes me. Same idea.
Are these kids from The Great White North? Oh, i see they are although some from U S of A too it seems...apologies to Ptarmigan...we also export maple syrup, mounties, legally shot polar bear and..until recently...seal skin!
Barrage:
A barrage is a line or barrier of exploding artillery shells, created by the co-ordinated aiming of a large number of guns firing continuously. Its purpose is to deny or hamper enemy passage through the line of the barrage, to attack a linear position such as a line of trenches or (as a creeping or rolling barrage) to neutralise the enemy in the path of an advance by friendly troops. It contrasts with a concentration, in which all the guns aim at the same small area.
That's show biz... I wouldn't rely upon my own opinion (a result of years of aesthetic distillation, combined with a disinclination to compromise musically) because it would sound uncharitable.
Think of this video as a possible bridge. It sure isn't what we play at our session, and it was never meant to be, so stop complaining that apples aren't oranges. It's the music of the youth of today (one type, at least) that is borrowing from traditional sources. This isn't what Coleman recorded, but it's what they like, and if trad has even the slightest influence on their music, so much the better. It's certainly better than screaming electric guitars, and this hybrid stuff does move some people from one camp to the other on occasion.
Riverdance has heightened the awareness of Ireland and its's music globally, and a fair number of people are playing hard-core trad at sessions today because of it, IMO.
Here's what I don't understand. If you don't like it, why would you go searching for it on YouTube and then call attention to it for thousands of other people on another web site?
Let hip-grinding, man-prancing, leaping dogs lie, eh?
Hmm. I actually usually like Barrage a lot, and own several of their CDs, but this video....fails to impress, to say the least, and it's not just because the sound quality is crap or because I think that Devil's Dream is beyond redemption.
That said, if I might actually address Ptarmigan's (rhetorical?) question of "Do they honestly expect to inspire admiration from practitioners of all the forms of music they murder in this tripe?" - I can't speak for them, but in any case, as ragaman says, that's not their intent. They say as much on their website (http://barrage.org) - a good part of their mission is to inspire elementary- and high school students. And - I've said this before (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20414#comment426899), but I feel the need to repeat myself every time the tired topic of "look at these flashy musicians besmirching the form" threads came up - bands like them are so often the FIRST exposure that teenagers of non-Celtic descent have to anything resembling ITM.
They're one of the many Canadian Celtic fusion bands that I started listening to before I took up the fiddle - and I'm one of the folks that ciaranbradley mentions, and apparently I'm someone who makes The Whistle Collector sad. Incidentally, when I was a teen and in my early twenties listening to Barrage, Ashley MacIsaac, Leahy, Natalie MacMaster's less trad stuff, and several others of their ilk, I purchased some genuine ITM CDs, listened to them once or twice, and retired them to the CD shalf- they just didn't capture my interest. Too dull, too repetitive. A decade later, as a novice fiddler and with a deeper understanding of the subtleties of the music under my belt, I dusted the old CDs off and started listening to them again, and now they're in heavy rotation. I'd rather listen to [name a traditional band] than Barrage today, but that wasn't the case ten years ago, and it likely wouldn't ever have BECOME the case if I had never listened to Barrage.
I think this is also a necessary revenue earner for young people who have racked up a serious student debt studying music at university. How many well-paying orchestra gigs are there? If I needed to pay the bills and could do so making music, especially if I'd gone to university or college for it, I think I'd be hard pressed to resist. I probably wouldn't prance though. Probably.
I do hate the sound of microphones on fiddles, and every time someone plops down at our session with one, I cringe. It's like a badge of "I'm a professional"
"every time someone plops down at our session with one"
waitwaitwait, this happens? Regularly?
Awhile back I attended an out of town session - advertised as an "open jam" hosted by a local band - in which said band members were mic'd. I didn't find this out until I'd already removed my fiddle from my case and had been assured by one of the band members that yes, this is an open session and I'm more than welcome to play. I should have left right then, but for some reason I stayed for a bit. Never went back, of course.
I think Isolation means they're not plugged in, they're just wearing their mike anyway, as in to show off that they "need the amplification when they're not slumming around in sessions, pish posh."
Barrage give the impression that it doesn't matter in the slightest what stuff you play as long as you look good playing it. It's not about ITM but about your attitude towards music in general. A lot of kids think that to play music you have to be on a stage and put on a show.
There are better ways of getting youngsters interested in taking up an instrument. A colleague invited some members of the regional symphony orchestra to our school. They talked to the kids, got them involved and demonstrated what their instruments could do. Everybody enjoyed it.
I think what you're saying then TD&Mysterous is a point alluded to this week on another thread which basically was it's a "stage" in the journey of musical taste and some people stay there and some move beyond it to other things and if Barrage awakens some people to know more about the truckly how of this music and doing it [be it quebecois, Cape Breton, old tyme or Itm] well so much the better. No harm done. It's not like Barrage is spreading SARS or anything.
Confession: I remember being rather taken by the Corrs when I first was introduced to this music by a friend...I also wanted to be one of the Irish Rovers but I was highly allergic to the Aran knit sweaters.
Somehow, when I watched this video, I *knew* SWFL was going to be the first one to comment
The idea of things like this being a "starter drug" that gets people interested in the hard core stuff is valid. I was certainly more interested in the likes of Lúnasa than, say, Michael Coleman before I started playing. But as I learned more, my tastes matured. Or at least, the way I think about different aspects of the music has changed significantly.
But the problem lies in the fact that there is a significant percentage of people that will get introduced to the music through things like this, that will never mature in their tastes, and think that what we're watching in the video is *traditional*. So they're happy to stick with the fluff, but then expect to be able to hang out with the hardcore "druggies", as it were... Potentially dragging us all down to their level.
I must admit that as heinous as this is to me, it is less dastardly than a ménage à trois with two oiled-up-bodhran-playing-hunks and a prancing pixie.*
"But as I learned more, my tastes matured."
Pete, they did!? ;)
[ps. I have tickets to the Monster Truck Crush this weekend if you're interested. It'll be a good one...lots of rent metal.]
The nice thing about Barrage CDs are that they keep one awake on long drives.
And they beat the heck out of watching John Wayne in 'Quite Man" reruns, or seeing that son of Brother Rice High School in Chicago, Michael 'Riverdance' Flatley winking into the TV camera.
Monster Truck Crush! wow. Do they do demolition derby, or maybe roller derby in Cape Breton and Ireland?
kuec - "There are better ways of getting youngsters interested in taking up an instrument. A colleague invited some members of the regional symphony orchestra to our school. They talked to the kids, got them involved and demonstrated what their instruments could do. Everybody enjoyed it."
And yet this board is filled with classically-trained folks who hated playing classical, and came to trad as an adult. What your colleague did sounds great, but it's not going to have a lasting effect on every kid who attended. It's a big world, plenty of room for both the symphony and for...whatever word you'd use to classify Barrage et al. (And as for "Barrage give the impression that it doesn't matter in the slightest what stuff you play as long as you look good playing it." - as I said, that video is poor, but I heard them before I knew what they looked like, and still enjoyed their music.)
Reverend - "But the problem lies in the fact that there is a significant percentage of people that will get introduced to the music through things like this, that will never mature in their tastes, and think that what we're watching in the video is *traditional*. So they're happy to stick with the fluff, but then expect to be able to hang out with the hardcore "druggies", as it were... Potentially dragging us all down to their level."
Have you actually seen this in action? Honest question - because I haven't. Perhaps I have seen it, but it wasn't obvious, because there's not much of a difference between a newbie trying to sound like Kevin Burke and a newbie trying to sound like Barrage. What I have seen much, much, much more often are highly skilled, classically-trained folks who know nothing about ITM beyond what they've seen on sheet music, expecting, as you say, to hang out with the hard-core druggies. But that doesn't mean that there's a problem with people listening to classical music, is it? It means that there's a problem with people who don't know about ITM and don't take the time to learn about it. (Or, to paraphrase llig, there's a problem with people who want to play without listening to the type of music they're playing.)
I'm rather surprised to read that so many folks here don't appear to believe that ITM would interest & inspire kids.
Personally, I reckon those kids could do a much better job, if they were to travel round schools, playing some genuine Bach & Paganini. Of course, they wouldn't get paid so much, nor would they feel like part of the showbiz set, but I reckon they'd do a better job.
Just as I don't believe for one minute that a group of excellent trad musicians of the same age, wouldn't really inspire teenagers, if they played some cracking trad in their school.
Call me old fashioned, but I feel more comfortable with that kind of more honest & somehow more wholesome approach to passing on a musical tradition.
I really don't think that kids today are all so shallow, that they need to be constantly fed a diet of diluted wish wash.
Sadly, they seem to be just buying into this modern obsession that folks have today .... i.e. everybody wants to be FAMOUS!
It's just not good enough now to be very talented, you HAVE to be FAMOUS ......... or it just doesn't count.
I have seen it in action with the likes of Lúnasa. I have met people who will play a Lúnasa set note for note in a session, including tunes that switch time signatures, and aren't Irish in origin.
Now maybe that's not a long term thing. And I'm not a mind reader... But a couple of times I have gotten the impression that these people considered that to be pure drop, and didn't see anything wrong with it... Although, maybe I'm making a sweeping generalization out of a couple of specific instances.
It would be OK to look at if the young wans were wearing miniskirts !!but you'te right , it is absolute sh**e but then so is 99.9% of country music and this is showbusiness not music.
Doesn't do much for me (to tell you the truth, I couldn't stand to watch it all the way through) but if it pays the bills for those musicians, more power to them. I don't think it harms "the tradition" any more than it harms baroque music -- the die hard trad heads ad baroque people or whomever won't bother with that anyway. Other than to point out its existence on this website.
Au contraire, nicholas, it's much better than Celtic Woman. As Adam Ant once said about the improvements in his new band: "More people, less clothing."
I would have preferred if they played 'The De'il among among the Tailors'. As one of the UTube coments said ' I love that song. It always makes me want to throw my crutch away and dance on the street.....or am I thinking of 'Johnny jump up'. However I did like their version of the Benny Goodman/Gene Krupa classic. 'Sing Sing Sing'.
I'm friends with a girl who was in this group for a while. She's a great fiddle player. She told me they were on about 50k a year each. Prob a little more than the average ITM musician gets for slogging through the weekly sessions.
I reckon they ought to try it on 8 pints of guinness. The stilt walking would be hilarious!
I think you are getting old, Ptarmy, the kids are having fun playing music for other kids who are having fun. And they are introducing more people to a form of music that they otherwise might have missed. These groups don't steal part of the pie, they make the pie bigger for all of us, in terms of drawing people toward traditional music.
That being said, they are not my cup of tea...
Not my current cup of tea either, but I find myself largely in agreement with TDM about this sort of thing being a potential "gateway drug" to the real thing.
Fairport Convention was my first exposure to anything related to "trad music" and was what started me down that garden path, and I suspect folks at the time would've said many of the same things as are being said here about Barrage.
Reverend - "I have met people who will play a Lúnasa set note for note in a session, including tunes that switch time signatures, and aren't Irish in origin."
Oh, my. Well then.
Funny, though, because a year ago I found myself at a session with a fiddler from Barrage. She, incidentally, DIDN'T play any Barrage sets note for note, and certainly didn't play any tunes that switched time signatures or weren't Irish in origin. (Okay, not quite that last part - she did play some Scottish and Cape Breton tunes, but that's par for the course, at least at that session and others I've attended.) She played with an understanding of the tradition and of the nature of the session. That wasn't the first or last time I've played in a session with musicians who also played in non-trad bands; none of them brought their fusion leanings to the session, though. They can tell the difference between a session and a pop concert, so I can't hold them accountable if certain factions of their audiences can't.
"They can tell the difference between a session and a pop concert, so I can't hold them accountable if certain factions of their audiences can't."
Well said, TDM. That's why Ptarmy's reaction seems so misplaced, to me. Sure, that performance would choke a died-in-the-wool traddie. But the remedy is simple--don't inhale.
And don't be surprised when one of the kids from Barrage or Gizzen Briggs or BowFire sits down at your sesh and plays pure drop trad better than a youngster ought to. I too have sat next to a few of these kids in sessions and thoroughly enjoyed their subtle, tradition-laden playing.
Man, I wish when I was (much) younger there was someone like this to start me on Irish music instead of you old farts. Especially if they are good in session!
;)
Just in case anyone (much) younger than me should wonder;
What is a Curmudgeon anyway?
"A curmudgeon's reputation for malevolence is undeserved. They're neither warped nor evil at heart. They don't hate mankind, just mankind's absurdities. They're just as sensitive and soft-hearted as the next guy, but they hide their vulnerability beneath a crust of misanthropy. They ease the pain by turning hurt into humor. . . . . . They attack maudlinism because it devalues genuine sentiment. . . . . . Nature, having failed to equip them with a servicable denial mechanism, has endowed them with astute perception and sly wit.
Curmudgeons are mockers and debunkers whose bitterness is a symptom rather than a disease. They can't compromise their standards and can't manage the suspension of disbelief necessary for feigned cheerfulness. Their awareness is a curse.
Perhaps curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way that the messenger is blamed for the message: They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor. "
They're enjoying themselves,so are the audience,where is the harm in that? You are getting too old.Is it because you can't jump around like that any more when you are playing?
Seven Wicket Reels - I do the fifth one along in a different key.....No...I tell a lie...... I can't play any of them, but I think I know the names of the tunes. First there was the 'Jump Up and Down Reel', that was followed by the 'Jump up and Down Reel' which slipped nicely into the...Yes..you guessed it...the 'Jump up and Down Reel'......It was around that part of the performance that I came to the conclusion that I too, am much too old for this kind of thing. Ah well! .....it's back to The Auld Geese in the Bog' for me.!!!!
For those of you that say that these Barrage guys & gals excite & inspire a young audience, so that makes it all OK
Here's an example of young musicians who really can excite & inspire a young audience, ............ but instead of selling out, they do it all by playing the pure drop!
One day there will be a massive purge on the youth, especially those not in regular or respectable employment. The relatively nimble who have been into dancing or athletics will be vetted for evidence of some trace of musical activity - a bit of violin would be just the thing. Those who did grade 3 as kids would be processed into instant tune-and-dance troupes to welcome low-grade dignitaries at provincial airports and deserted town centres in the rain. I dread to think what might happen to the rest.
I have a sinking feeling that the UK, culturally bulimic at the best of times and frantic for a feel-good instant solution to the impending perfect storm of economic and social problems, will latch onto the idea of Venezuela's Systema orchestra and that there will be an eruption of parodic ghastliness as mutant forms of it manifest across the land, including "Celtic" ones.
Things connected with a current "regeneration" project in Durham inform these sour predictions. It is being run by people with no principles and no aesthetic sense. Having no principles is something I can understand. Having no aesthetic sense is not. It riles me that such people have somehow acquired the authority to turn the town centre into Instant Whip. Their "Vision" (of course...) is bland and totalitarian. "Large-scale events" are part of the project. Fine, if they're good. But I wouldn't bet against spectacle winning out over quality in this area, sooner or later - this is the connection with the noir predictions I started with.
"Here's an example of young musicians who really can excite & inspire a young audience, ............ but instead of selling out, they do it all by playing the pure drop!"
Oh, well, in that case I retract everything I said in this thread, because GOD IN HEAVEN knows there's no room in this world for more than one type of performance.
OH MY GOD!
I just read another 70+ reply thesession discussion thread!!!!
AH well - since I'm here:
This thread is particularly interesting - it is cogent to the search for:
"What happens now that the regional isolation that spawned our cultural identity has been killed by mass-media???"
and:
"What happens now that the internet has killed the recording-company lordship over our mass cultural identity???"
and:
Is mass media not content with killing everything we hold dear???
and:
"What is next to die???"
Apart from all that ...
There is a world of difference between what a musicans need to do for their musical soul and what they have to do to pay the rent. Who pays the piper calls the tune - the trick of the piper is to anticipate the call or be bugged all night with requests for Danny Boy. A real good piper will get paid for guessing the audience call for a tune they never heard before .. we call these "stars" - if none aspired, none could follow and .. what was the old school motto? "Per ardua ad astra"?
The least we as traditionalists can do is to make it all as "ardua" as possible <snigger> I'm sure it is the right thing to do.
FWIW, I wasn't knocking the musicians in Barrage (or certainly Lúnasa, either), and I generally don't begrudge people for making a living just about any way that they can. I can't say that I've had much of a better session than some of the ones that I've played with folks like that.
But while those players may be great traditional players, I was just pointing out that there are a lot of people in this world that may get inspired by the commercial music like that, and not ever spend the time or energy to learn that it isn't traditional. And there are some people who think it *is* traditional, and can't be bothered to learn anything more about the tradition, because they're so stuck on what inspired them to begin with. Sot it's those people who have the potential to drag us down. Generally when I meet people like that, I don't try to shun them, but I do try to help guide them in a different direction.
There remains, however, to address the gulph left by the fall of regional isolation. ITM might easily be left in the same predicament that Latin suffered at the fall of rome - and become something that only gets heard in church - with a different meaning buried under a volcano awaiting future archeologists to missinterpret to the masses.
The truth is that, just as Latin became Italian, Spanish, and was appropriated to clean-up Turkish, so too will ITM become teh bones of something new.
These kids with violins are simply exploring the new language - I for one can forgive them for presenting the odd snippet of tedium day to day ...
But for the custodians? Let us pray and hope it does not devolve into the hands of a Hillsongesque pop church. Rather in the rock'n'roll gutters of true music. Either way - the heart of the past can be legend or be dirt in between mystic shards of pottery. So far the church has made a good go of it, but Saints all live in history, living people can't comfortably exist there. If there's something worth saving - it wil be kept alive one way or another. Movies for instance. I just watched an add for football with a soundtrack - a Pogues-ish rendition of a jig played half-tempo .. presumably slow enough for football enthusiasts to dance to whilst sitting on their sofas, remote in hand .. the bum-cheek-jig. Maybe that will inspire a new genre .. can't wait for the movie!
"Here's an example of young musicians who really can excite & inspire a young audience, ............ but instead of selling out, they do it all by playing the pure drop!
Can you define "pure drop?" Is there even an acceptable definition of it or is it in the Justice Potter Stewart school of "I know it when I see it" (or hear it as the case may be)?
I'm saying that "At First Light" is or isn't (I'd say it's not), I just want to know how you describe it.
I would regard Donal O'Connor & John McSherry as being pure drop musicians.
Or to put it another way, I know there's no such thing as the best Fiddler or the best Piper, but I don't think you'll find a better Fiddler or Piper in Ireland, than those two lads.
e.g. I think their duets are just as fine as anything Robbie Hannon & Paddy Glackin can produce, on a good day!
To Ptarmigan:
I think it's great that you think they're the best, but many people, myself included, would think that they can in fact "find a better Fiddler or Piper in Ireland".
To TheSilverSpear:
I don't think there's a concise, succinct, short definition. I think there are loads of generalizations that can be made, but I'm sure they'd all have exceptions!
For instance, I think a general rule is that bands are not pure drop, even if the musicians are. And an exception would be ceili bands, or groups like Paddy Canny / PJ Hayes / Peader O'Loughlin / Brid Lafferty.
I might also argue that "traditional" and "pure drop" aren't strictly speaking the same thing.
" ... but many people, myself included, would think that they can in fact "find a better Fiddler or Piper in Ireland"."
Nico, I'd be fascinated to hear what you reckon it is about these 'better musicians', that would make them 'better' players, than Donal or John?
Oh yes & surely, either bands can or they cannot, be pure drop?
You can't have it both ways!
So now I'm wondering, is it really an age thing in your book?
In other words, do you reckon you have got to be an ancient musician, before you can be classed as Pure Drop?
If so, I tend to disagree, because from the first time I heard a musician like say Matt Molloy, even as a young man, I would have classed his playing as Pure Drop.
How can ceilidh bands be "Pure Drop? In their current form they are 20th century innovations, albeit early 20th century. It sounds as if you are saying that something achieves "Pure Drop" status by virtue of being around for long enough. Is traditional music like whisky?
One of the reasons Irish diddley is just so darn splendid, is that it's best proponents have never based their musical choices on whether something is traditional or not. only on quality. Things that are often considered fads get assimilated into the culture extremely quickly. Sometimes to the detriment, sometimes not. I think a good strummed guitar or bazouki is an improvement on the 20s vamping piano for example. But taste is just that, taste, it's subjective
If the concept of a traditional music can have any importance, you have to focus on the collective tastes of innovative individuals. There is no objective tradition. Only the convergence of subjective innovations fuelled by love, understanding and respect.
Without innovation Llig, I dread to think what sort of a stinking, stagnant pond ITM would be, by now!
We might still be plodding around with only Planxtys & Marches, turning our noses up at all those foreign Jigs & Reels & such!
Anyway, who decides when the music has become 'perfect'?
Can it ever be perfect?.
I believe it is possible to be innovative within the context of a tradition, using the existing elements, as well as the other kind of innovation, which actually introduces new factors to the equation, like new instruments etc.
I agree with Michael and Ptarmigan -- that's why I'm asking Nico to explain what he means by "Pure Drop" and how he knows when something becomes or ceases being "Pure Drop." The term itself (which probably has etymological history in alcoholic beverages) implies that music that is "Pure Drop" has some sort of superiority over all that impure stuff floating around out there.
Since Nico and I have been talking about this at length privately, allow me to attempt to answer some of the mentioned issues. I'd like to point out that this isn't to be considered snarky in any way, nor was my original remark.
"Pure drop" to me means music that has very little influence from outside of Irish traditional music. I don't think that the video Ptarmigan linked to can truly be called pure drop, because the musicians seem to be more entertainers than tradition bearers. The music was very modern, arranged, and influenced by other forms of music like pop and "celtic". I honestly don't have much experience listening to the individual musicians outside of the band, but I would not call At First Light pure drop in the same way I would Denis Murphy and Julia Clifford, or Mick O'Brien and Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh, or many other people attempting to carry on the tradition.
That said, just because something is or is not what I would consider pure drop does not make it better or worse musically. It's really a matter of taste. At this point in my life, I (and Nico as well) prefer to listen to older music that in my opinion rings more true to the pure drop connotation. Pure drop to me is not about the next big thing or trend, it is simply traditional folk music, played well and with the respect it deserves.
There's nothing wrong with bands. I'm in one myself (although we're obviously nowhere near the stardom that At First Light has achieved). I would not call anything we do pure drop however, and I don't even know that I could comfortably call myself this as an individual musician, although I have worked very hard to play as traditionally and as well as possible for a very long time.
I'll bet that if Edward Bunting and his fellow harpers had the internet then they would have been moaning in Ye Session about the new fangled uilleann pipes aldulterating the "pure drop".
Final thoughts. They are not my cup of tea but they are making the music that they want to make.Nobody is forced to buy their cds or attend their concerts,but many do. Good luck to them.A tradtion that does not evolve is a dead tradition.If you want to put it under a glass case in a dusty old museum,go ahead,but like all dusty old museums it will recieve few visitors. If the pure drop faction were in charge from the start,we would all be banging stones together in caves.
"Pure Drop to me means music that has very little influence from outside of Irish traditional music."
This is not a definition until you can quantify what "very little" means. And you can't. Ergo, you can't define Pure Drop.
Every single last thing, every instrument, every sound, every note, every articulation, every tune that contributes to the body of this music was once an inovation, new, not traditional. Every single last thing in this music was once not in it. Pure Drop is merely a romantic notion.
Given that people have always traveled, it's pretty improbable that there was ever a point in history when Irish music existed in a pure form, barely touched by outside influences. To be fair, many people classified as "Pure Drop" now would have considered themselves innovative at the time they were alive and playing.
As the uilleann (union) pipes were invented in the late 18th century, they would considered by historians to be "modern" ("early modern" ends at the 17th century).
I understand the the type of music you are talking about and listen to lots of it myself (really, Nico, I do), but would it not make more sense to lose the "Pure Drop" term and call it "Unaccompanied solo or duet Irish traditional music, mostly from the early 20th century?"
Anyway, with that description you are effectively labelling that music as the most traditional.
Effectively what we have is a snapshot of traditional music in the 20s when it started being recorded. The problem is there is no way of knowing if that music was any closer to what they were playing in the 1850s than it is to what is played now by bands like At First Light.
Who decides that a showman like Michael Coleman, for example, should represent the tradition in its most pure sense.
I would suggest that "Traditional Irish Music" is a tradition that has constantly been evolving and developing from the earliest days with new innovations all the time. There will always be folk who hark back to "how it used to be played" when they were a lad or in their record collection but why is that really any more traditional?
No, I wasn't trying to label anything as "more traditional" than anything else. I was trying to move away from it as that's what "Pure Drop" tries to do, and does very badly. I was trying to explain what it was as neutrally as possible. If you had to describe, say the Cliffords, Bobby Casey, and some others were doing, what I said would sort of work in a few cases. It really sucks, actually, because I was going through a lot of the old stuff on my iTunes and quite of a lot of it has accompaniment. Some of it is interesting, even by "modern" standards. For example, it sounds as if Paddy Carty is being *backed* by a banjo. Weird. I can't imagine why that never caught on.
I have no problem with using basic labelling and classification within music - without it then music shops would have a hell of a time sorting their CDs! I am just wary about the idea that there is anything that is definitively "pure-drop". I also try to think about it as little as possible though. My only criteria to deciding whether to listen to something or not is whether I think it sounds good or not and one of the main issues appears to be whether they playing in tune or not.
I don't care if they are in A440 or not but the notes that are played should be in tune relatively - ie with itself!
Alistair and I agree on something about Irish music -- stop the presses!
On a more serious note, it is obviously daft to say that "all Irish music is the same." What I am saying is that it is problematic to start classifying things as "more traditional" than others because you have to then define what "more traditional" means and you really can't. It's even more problematic to do it with loaded terms like "pure drop" which sounds pretentious even if *you* don't mean it that way. Anyway, it's not just Irish music that has this problem. Any kind of classificatory scheme that tries to order things that aren't really quantifiable into neat categories, regardless of what those things are, is rife with problems. People have PhDs and scientific careers based on this.
I'd just take things as they are and not worry about saying that Seamus Ennis and Paddy Carty are in one category and John McSherry and Donal O'Connor are in another. As Alistair said, just decide on a case-by-case basis whether you like it and it sounds good.
Why would I want to acquire a taste for out of tune music? If I have the choice between a session that is out of tune and one that is in tune I pick the in tune one. The same logic applies to my CD collection.
That guy's been around for years and I've always found it bewildering how he ever got a career in comedy, as he's just not very funny. And if you think he's a rubbish comic, you should see his acting. It's even worse!
I thought the Barrage clip was terrific, not what I want to listen to or play, but was also struck by something about it I couldn't put my finger on. Later I got it; they move like characters from cartoons my boys (now in their 20s) used to watch. Power Rangers/Mutant Turtles do Irish fiddle....
Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Is it just me, am I really just getting too OLD or is this really just pure, unadulterated $%!T!
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gXrKvmcHpI&feature=PlayList&p=213E92BD27118AE1&index=22&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL >
Seriously folks, is it just me, or is anyone else here just left wondering WTF!!!!!
Surely it's just one long horrible pastiche from start to finish & probably the worst & most pathetic excuse for real music, out there ..... isn't it?
Do they honestly expect to inspire admiration from practitioners of all the forms of music they murder in this tripe?
Should we be thanking Riverdance for inspiring this sort of mockery of real art forms?
I'm very curious to hear what classically trained musicians think of this kind of STUFF?
I'd say, if this doesn't give you the 'Dry Boke' ... you really do need to see a Doctor!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I kept thinking about how much you'd have to pay to get me to jump around and act all overly-dramatic like that. I haven't come up with an appropriate sum yet.
As far as the artistic merits, well, I, uh, er...at least the girls were pretty?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Sadly, so many people want to learn Irish music because of stuff like this, Riverdance, and stuff like Celtic Women. I thought it was horrible; I could not even watch it the whole way through. I think I had a harder time actually watching it, than listening to it.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by pipersgrip
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
For me, this is in the same category as Yanni, Andre Rieu, and Lawrence Welk. (though, to be fair, Lawrence Welk earned every nickel he ever had, and the first thirty years of his career were one-night gigs)
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
While it sounds somewhere between saccharine and sacrilege, I don't think that their intended audience are going to be hardcore classical or trad buffs.
It is tailor made for people who expect their music to follow the common formula. And kids have an expectation that folk music or classical is for old people, and is unlistenable, this is the sort of stuff that bridges the gap. Like those "hooked on classics" records back in the 80's. Terrible, but opened the music to a wider audience.
At the end of it, if it inspires 1 or 2 youngsters to pick up the instrument, where they wouldn't have before, then fair play, and if it inspires them to listen a little deeper, also fair play.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by ciaranbradley
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
The name says it all:
barrage
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
mtodd, I thought you were going to say "Devil's nightmare".
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I think ciaranbradley hit the nail right on the head
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"Surely it's just one long horrible pastiche from start to finish"
Yes.
"Do they honestly expect to inspire admiration from practitioners of all the forms of music they murder in this tripe?"
I doubt it. It's pop music. They expect to draw a young, naive, audience that doesn't know a great deal about any of the musical genres (which, judging by the screams and cheers - and the comments in Youtube - they have succeded in doing) - and to earn some money out of it.
Perhaps a few of of their audience will be interested enough in one or other of the ingredients that make up this piece to look into them in greater depth and thus discover some real traditional or baroque or classical music.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Ah come on its grand!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Ultimately it's harmless. So Ionannas has a point. Mostly it's eye candy with fiddles.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
yep your're getting old ptarmigan!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by gedpipes
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I've just one thing to say to you Ged:
http://bestsmileys.com/crying/2.gif
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Well, if it's supposed to be eye candy, how about better lighting? Are they afraid that we'll find out the Tootsie Roll is really a cat turd?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by awildman2384
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Love the comment by a fan:
they're awesome... are you playing with them or are they just coming to preform?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by leoj
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"Is it just me, am I really just getting too OLD or is this really just pure, unadulterated $%!T!"
Yes to all!
Cheers Dan, the ancient one
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by curamach
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Ptarmigan...it's not that you're getting older, it's that they're getting younger!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Two Separate responses
MTodd
I like Barrage. They put on a great show. Loud, pin-your-ears back show....Sort of the Pink Floyd of Cape Breton fiddle music.
I don't like their sojourns into 1920s club music.
It's not trad, but a nice afternoon or evening that leaves your ears ringing.
I file this one under ecumenical since they seem to keep a certain spirit of the traditional roots of their music.
Not Like Riverdance.....The Las Vegas show version of ITM- The only thing missing there is Liberaces candelabra!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Second one
Ptarmigan
This is something I usually write around St. PAts Day!
Short of getting into duplicating Baroque, Madrigals and such with period intruments and silly costumes, ITM is as pure as Music gets. (note the capital 'M')
People can play it on all sorts of Human powered instruments, in places where the nearest electrical outlet may be in another zipcode. The musician brings the interpretaion and articulation to equation.
A freind and I had this conversation the other day on another topic. My Response was you are not suffering from aging....your sense of humor is being challenged.
You are only as old as your self image.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Zipp...I guess it's the buffet approach -- all you can listen too and then some....but there are so many of these in North America...as if they clone them or something. Isn't "Bowfire" another one? And I'm sure there's yet another version playing every summer in Charlottetown PEI...it's name escapes me. Same idea.
Are these kids from The Great White North? Oh, i see they are although some from U S of A too it seems...apologies to Ptarmigan...we also export maple syrup, mounties, legally shot polar bear and..until recently...seal skin!
Barrage:
A barrage is a line or barrier of exploding artillery shells, created by the co-ordinated aiming of a large number of guns firing continuously. Its purpose is to deny or hamper enemy passage through the line of the barrage, to attack a linear position such as a line of trenches or (as a creeping or rolling barrage) to neutralise the enemy in the path of an advance by friendly troops. It contrasts with a concentration, in which all the guns aim at the same small area.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
So I guess the "audience" could be seen as the enemy? Interesting approach to entertaining. ;)
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Yeah, it's sh*t. But so what? It doesn't matter.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by ...
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
& compost is an important aspect of the food cycle.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
It could be worse. At least the men are wearing shirts and the women aren't wearing those filmy corseted things and singing Danny Boy.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
or vice vesa kennedy
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Though the comedy factor would increase greatly if that were the case!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Ptar, they are not too young for you, but you *are* too old for them....
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
That's show biz... I wouldn't rely upon my own opinion (a result of years of aesthetic distillation, combined with a disinclination to compromise musically) because it would sound uncharitable.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by drone
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Think of this video as a possible bridge. It sure isn't what we play at our session, and it was never meant to be, so stop complaining that apples aren't oranges. It's the music of the youth of today (one type, at least) that is borrowing from traditional sources. This isn't what Coleman recorded, but it's what they like, and if trad has even the slightest influence on their music, so much the better. It's certainly better than screaming electric guitars, and this hybrid stuff does move some people from one camp to the other on occasion.
Riverdance has heightened the awareness of Ireland and its's music globally, and a fair number of people are playing hard-core trad at sessions today because of it, IMO.
And they're not all playing bohdrans, either.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by ayedbl
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Here's what I don't understand. If you don't like it, why would you go searching for it on YouTube and then call attention to it for thousands of other people on another web site?
Let hip-grinding, man-prancing, leaping dogs lie, eh?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Guardian of heritage, old but not yet cynical ?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Hmm. I actually usually like Barrage a lot, and own several of their CDs, but this video....fails to impress, to say the least, and it's not just because the sound quality is crap or because I think that Devil's Dream is beyond redemption.
That said, if I might actually address Ptarmigan's (rhetorical?) question of "Do they honestly expect to inspire admiration from practitioners of all the forms of music they murder in this tripe?" - I can't speak for them, but in any case, as ragaman says, that's not their intent. They say as much on their website (http://barrage.org) - a good part of their mission is to inspire elementary- and high school students. And - I've said this before (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20414#comment426899), but I feel the need to repeat myself every time the tired topic of "look at these flashy musicians besmirching the form" threads came up - bands like them are so often the FIRST exposure that teenagers of non-Celtic descent have to anything resembling ITM.
They're one of the many Canadian Celtic fusion bands that I started listening to before I took up the fiddle - and I'm one of the folks that ciaranbradley mentions, and apparently I'm someone who makes The Whistle Collector sad. Incidentally, when I was a teen and in my early twenties listening to Barrage, Ashley MacIsaac, Leahy, Natalie MacMaster's less trad stuff, and several others of their ilk, I purchased some genuine ITM CDs, listened to them once or twice, and retired them to the CD shalf- they just didn't capture my interest. Too dull, too repetitive. A decade later, as a novice fiddler and with a deeper understanding of the subtleties of the music under my belt, I dusted the old CDs off and started listening to them again, and now they're in heavy rotation. I'd rather listen to [name a traditional band] than Barrage today, but that wasn't the case ten years ago, and it likely wouldn't ever have BECOME the case if I had never listened to Barrage.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I'll be impressed when they do the show on ice skates... then it will be complete.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by McCracken
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I think this is also a necessary revenue earner for young people who have racked up a serious student debt studying music at university. How many well-paying orchestra gigs are there? If I needed to pay the bills and could do so making music, especially if I'd gone to university or college for it, I think I'd be hard pressed to resist. I probably wouldn't prance though. Probably.
I do hate the sound of microphones on fiddles, and every time someone plops down at our session with one, I cringe. It's like a badge of "I'm a professional"
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"every time someone plops down at our session with one"
waitwaitwait, this happens? Regularly?
Awhile back I attended an out of town session - advertised as an "open jam" hosted by a local band - in which said band members were mic'd. I didn't find this out until I'd already removed my fiddle from my case and had been assured by one of the band members that yes, this is an open session and I'm more than welcome to play. I should have left right then, but for some reason I stayed for a bit. Never went back, of course.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I think Isolation means they're not plugged in, they're just wearing their mike anyway, as in to show off that they "need the amplification when they're not slumming around in sessions, pish posh."
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Oh, okay. I guess that's not *quite* as bad....but still.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Barrage give the impression that it doesn't matter in the slightest what stuff you play as long as you look good playing it. It's not about ITM but about your attitude towards music in general. A lot of kids think that to play music you have to be on a stage and put on a show.
There are better ways of getting youngsters interested in taking up an instrument. A colleague invited some members of the regional symphony orchestra to our school. They talked to the kids, got them involved and demonstrated what their instruments could do. Everybody enjoyed it.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by kuec
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I think what you're saying then TD&Mysterous is a point alluded to this week on another thread which basically was it's a "stage" in the journey of musical taste and some people stay there and some move beyond it to other things and if Barrage awakens some people to know more about the truckly how of this music and doing it [be it quebecois, Cape Breton, old tyme or Itm] well so much the better. No harm done. It's not like Barrage is spreading SARS or anything.
Confession: I remember being rather taken by the Corrs when I first was introduced to this music by a friend...I also wanted to be one of the Irish Rovers but I was highly allergic to the Aran knit sweaters.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
They're not showing off. Some of those mic setups are a pain to remove and it's just easier to leave them on.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Somehow, when I watched this video, I *knew* SWFL was going to be the first one to comment
The idea of things like this being a "starter drug" that gets people interested in the hard core stuff is valid. I was certainly more interested in the likes of Lúnasa than, say, Michael Coleman before I started playing. But as I learned more, my tastes matured. Or at least, the way I think about different aspects of the music has changed significantly.
But the problem lies in the fact that there is a significant percentage of people that will get introduced to the music through things like this, that will never mature in their tastes, and think that what we're watching in the video is *traditional*. So they're happy to stick with the fluff, but then expect to be able to hang out with the hardcore "druggies", as it were... Potentially dragging us all down to their level.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I must admit that as heinous as this is to me, it is less dastardly than a ménage à trois with two oiled-up-bodhran-playing-hunks and a prancing pixie.*
*musical content not factored into comparison.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by awildman
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"But as I learned more, my tastes matured."
Pete, they did!? ;)
[ps. I have tickets to the Monster Truck Crush this weekend if you're interested. It'll be a good one...lots of rent metal.]
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
The nice thing about Barrage CDs are that they keep one awake on long drives.
And they beat the heck out of watching John Wayne in 'Quite Man" reruns, or seeing that son of Brother Rice High School in Chicago, Michael 'Riverdance' Flatley winking into the TV camera.
Monster Truck Crush! wow. Do they do demolition derby, or maybe roller derby in Cape Breton and Ireland?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Quiet Man..oops. Blew that part of the punch line.
Jeremy can we add a spell/grammar/terrible writer check feature to the site?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
kuec - "There are better ways of getting youngsters interested in taking up an instrument. A colleague invited some members of the regional symphony orchestra to our school. They talked to the kids, got them involved and demonstrated what their instruments could do. Everybody enjoyed it."
And yet this board is filled with classically-trained folks who hated playing classical, and came to trad as an adult. What your colleague did sounds great, but it's not going to have a lasting effect on every kid who attended. It's a big world, plenty of room for both the symphony and for...whatever word you'd use to classify Barrage et al. (And as for "Barrage give the impression that it doesn't matter in the slightest what stuff you play as long as you look good playing it." - as I said, that video is poor, but I heard them before I knew what they looked like, and still enjoyed their music.)
Reverend - "But the problem lies in the fact that there is a significant percentage of people that will get introduced to the music through things like this, that will never mature in their tastes, and think that what we're watching in the video is *traditional*. So they're happy to stick with the fluff, but then expect to be able to hang out with the hardcore "druggies", as it were... Potentially dragging us all down to their level."
Have you actually seen this in action? Honest question - because I haven't. Perhaps I have seen it, but it wasn't obvious, because there's not much of a difference between a newbie trying to sound like Kevin Burke and a newbie trying to sound like Barrage. What I have seen much, much, much more often are highly skilled, classically-trained folks who know nothing about ITM beyond what they've seen on sheet music, expecting, as you say, to hang out with the hard-core druggies. But that doesn't mean that there's a problem with people listening to classical music, is it? It means that there's a problem with people who don't know about ITM and don't take the time to learn about it. (Or, to paraphrase llig, there's a problem with people who want to play without listening to the type of music they're playing.)
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I'm rather surprised to read that so many folks here don't appear to believe that ITM would interest & inspire kids.
Personally, I reckon those kids could do a much better job, if they were to travel round schools, playing some genuine Bach & Paganini. Of course, they wouldn't get paid so much, nor would they feel like part of the showbiz set, but I reckon they'd do a better job.
Just as I don't believe for one minute that a group of excellent trad musicians of the same age, wouldn't really inspire teenagers, if they played some cracking trad in their school.
Call me old fashioned, but I feel more comfortable with that kind of more honest & somehow more wholesome approach to passing on a musical tradition.
I really don't think that kids today are all so shallow, that they need to be constantly fed a diet of diluted wish wash.
Sadly, they seem to be just buying into this modern obsession that folks have today .... i.e. everybody wants to be FAMOUS!
It's just not good enough now to be very talented, you HAVE to be FAMOUS ......... or it just doesn't count.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Interesting to see that all the replies to this post, over on the Scottish forum 'Footstompin', have actually been very much in favour of this show!
Perhaps there's a bigger divide between STM & ITM than we thought!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
>> Have you actually seen this in action?
I have seen it in action with the likes of Lúnasa. I have met people who will play a Lúnasa set note for note in a session, including tunes that switch time signatures, and aren't Irish in origin.
Now maybe that's not a long term thing. And I'm not a mind reader... But a couple of times I have gotten the impression that these people considered that to be pure drop, and didn't see anything wrong with it... Although, maybe I'm making a sweeping generalization out of a couple of specific instances.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
It's all a bit fiddly, isn't it?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Ah Reverend, you know my weakness, my Achilles' Heel. Perhaps I should change my name to "The Florida Rake" or "Rakish Floridian".
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
It would be OK to look at if the young wans were wearing miniskirts !!but you'te right , it is absolute sh**e but then so is 99.9% of country music and this is showbusiness not music.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Red Robin
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Uhhh.... What? There was music? I must have been temporarily distracted, somehow....
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
It's no worse than the Celtic Women.
Not that it does a lot for me. I assume Paganini intended his pieces to be gruelling to listen to. He is honoured here.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Doesn't do much for me (to tell you the truth, I couldn't stand to watch it all the way through) but if it pays the bills for those musicians, more power to them. I don't think it harms "the tradition" any more than it harms baroque music -- the die hard trad heads ad baroque people or whomever won't bother with that anyway. Other than to point out its existence on this website.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Au contraire, nicholas, it's much better than Celtic Woman. As Adam Ant once said about the improvements in his new band: "More people, less clothing."
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I have something good to say about it:
I wouldn't throw any of the girls out of bed.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Alex Wilding
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I would have preferred if they played 'The De'il among among the Tailors'. As one of the UTube coments said ' I love that song. It always makes me want to throw my crutch away and dance on the street.....or am I thinking of 'Johnny jump up'. However I did like their version of the Benny Goodman/Gene Krupa classic. 'Sing Sing Sing'.
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
It's not for the fuddy-duddys;nonetheless, it was a nice performance.
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I'm friends with a girl who was in this group for a while. She's a great fiddle player. She told me they were on about 50k a year each. Prob a little more than the average ITM musician gets for slogging through the weekly sessions.
I reckon they ought to try it on 8 pints of guinness. The stilt walking would be hilarious!
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by Fiddle Fancier
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Wait a minute! ITM musicians get paid? Which ITM musicians would these be? Not very many around here get paid to play Irish music.
I thought 50k a year was what the average ITM musician spent on Guinness.
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by awildman
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I think you are getting old, Ptarmy, the kids are having fun playing music for other kids who are having fun. And they are introducing more people to a form of music that they otherwise might have missed. These groups don't steal part of the pie, they make the pie bigger for all of us, in terms of drawing people toward traditional music.
That being said, they are not my cup of tea...
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Not my current cup of tea either, but I find myself largely in agreement with TDM about this sort of thing being a potential "gateway drug" to the real thing.
Fairport Convention was my first exposure to anything related to "trad music" and was what started me down that garden path, and I suspect folks at the time would've said many of the same things as are being said here about Barrage.
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by jeff_willner
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Reverend - "I have met people who will play a Lúnasa set note for note in a session, including tunes that switch time signatures, and aren't Irish in origin."
Oh, my. Well then.
Funny, though, because a year ago I found myself at a session with a fiddler from Barrage. She, incidentally, DIDN'T play any Barrage sets note for note, and certainly didn't play any tunes that switched time signatures or weren't Irish in origin. (Okay, not quite that last part - she did play some Scottish and Cape Breton tunes, but that's par for the course, at least at that session and others I've attended.) She played with an understanding of the tradition and of the nature of the session. That wasn't the first or last time I've played in a session with musicians who also played in non-trad bands; none of them brought their fusion leanings to the session, though. They can tell the difference between a session and a pop concert, so I can't hold them accountable if certain factions of their audiences can't.
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
At a loss for words.. :(
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by lamh trom
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"They can tell the difference between a session and a pop concert, so I can't hold them accountable if certain factions of their audiences can't."
Well said, TDM. That's why Ptarmy's reaction seems so misplaced, to me. Sure, that performance would choke a died-in-the-wool traddie. But the remedy is simple--don't inhale.
And don't be surprised when one of the kids from Barrage or Gizzen Briggs or BowFire sits down at your sesh and plays pure drop trad better than a youngster ought to. I too have sat next to a few of these kids in sessions and thoroughly enjoyed their subtle, tradition-laden playing.
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Man, I wish when I was (much) younger there was someone like this to start me on Irish music instead of you old farts. Especially if they are good in session!
;)
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Or ..............
Just in case anyone (much) younger than me should wonder;
What is a Curmudgeon anyway?
"A curmudgeon's reputation for malevolence is undeserved. They're neither warped nor evil at heart. They don't hate mankind, just mankind's absurdities. They're just as sensitive and soft-hearted as the next guy, but they hide their vulnerability beneath a crust of misanthropy. They ease the pain by turning hurt into humor. . . . . . They attack maudlinism because it devalues genuine sentiment. . . . . . Nature, having failed to equip them with a servicable denial mechanism, has endowed them with astute perception and sly wit.
Curmudgeons are mockers and debunkers whose bitterness is a symptom rather than a disease. They can't compromise their standards and can't manage the suspension of disbelief necessary for feigned cheerfulness. Their awareness is a curse.
Perhaps curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way that the messenger is blamed for the message: They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor. "
- JON WINOKUR
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCuluSz8anw&feature=related
They're enjoying themselves,so are the audience,where is the harm in that? You are getting too old.Is it because you can't jump around like that any more when you are playing?
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by dafydd
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Seven Wicket Reels - I do the fifth one along in a different key.....No...I tell a lie...... I can't play any of them, but I think I know the names of the tunes. First there was the 'Jump Up and Down Reel', that was followed by the 'Jump up and Down Reel' which slipped nicely into the...Yes..you guessed it...the 'Jump up and Down Reel'......It was around that part of the performance that I came to the conclusion that I too, am much too old for this kind of thing. Ah well! .....it's back to The Auld Geese in the Bog' for me.!!!!
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Oh Yes Voonderbar ... just what we need ~ FIVE more absolutely horrible, nonsensical makey-uppy tunes!
...... who needs melody anyway, when you can just string a load of ornamentation & notes, together & then jump about!
I wonder if they actually created those monsters with a computer programme?
OH MY GOD dafydd ... that was truly DREADFUL!
http://www.amcostarica.com/scream052807.jpg
Free Reed, you forgot to mention all that talented 'Spinnin Around' & kicking out in front of them! Wooooooooo
Oh aye, they certainly are taking trad music into a new dimension!
........ but I, for one, will NOT be following them!
Kind of fitting that they were performing this load of old bo££ocks in DISNEYLAND though, don't you think?
Must be Barrage's answer to the Seven Dwarfs:
Jumpy, Kicky, Spinny, Turny, Twirly, Dancy & Prancy!
http://morningnoonandnight.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/sevendwarfs.jpg
......................... Mind if I join you Free Reed, for The Auld Geese in the Bog?
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
For those of you that say that these Barrage guys & gals excite & inspire a young audience, so that makes it all OK
Here's an example of young musicians who really can excite & inspire a young audience, ............ but instead of selling out, they do it all by playing the pure drop!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiWPTI1zilc
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Am I just getting old . . .
So you're finally figuring out how to find the good clips Ptarmigan?
;)
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Thanks for the nicks, ptarm. Apart from me there are seven other people in the band. I only have to get them to behave accordingly now...
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by kuec
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
They are young, they are probably right - like we were.
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by David50
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
One day there will be a massive purge on the youth, especially those not in regular or respectable employment. The relatively nimble who have been into dancing or athletics will be vetted for evidence of some trace of musical activity - a bit of violin would be just the thing. Those who did grade 3 as kids would be processed into instant tune-and-dance troupes to welcome low-grade dignitaries at provincial airports and deserted town centres in the rain. I dread to think what might happen to the rest.
I have a sinking feeling that the UK, culturally bulimic at the best of times and frantic for a feel-good instant solution to the impending perfect storm of economic and social problems, will latch onto the idea of Venezuela's Systema orchestra and that there will be an eruption of parodic ghastliness as mutant forms of it manifest across the land, including "Celtic" ones.
Things connected with a current "regeneration" project in Durham inform these sour predictions. It is being run by people with no principles and no aesthetic sense. Having no principles is something I can understand. Having no aesthetic sense is not. It riles me that such people have somehow acquired the authority to turn the town centre into Instant Whip. Their "Vision" (of course...) is bland and totalitarian. "Large-scale events" are part of the project. Fine, if they're good. But I wouldn't bet against spectacle winning out over quality in this area, sooner or later - this is the connection with the noir predictions I started with.
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Parodic ghastliness, we used to dream of parodic ghastliness.
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by David50
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"Here's an example of young musicians who really can excite & inspire a young audience, ............ but instead of selling out, they do it all by playing the pure drop!"
Oh, well, in that case I retract everything I said in this thread, because GOD IN HEAVEN knows there's no room in this world for more than one type of performance.
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
OH MY GOD!
I just read another 70+ reply thesession discussion thread!!!!
AH well - since I'm here:
This thread is particularly interesting - it is cogent to the search for:
"What happens now that the regional isolation that spawned our cultural identity has been killed by mass-media???"
and:
"What happens now that the internet has killed the recording-company lordship over our mass cultural identity???"
and:
Is mass media not content with killing everything we hold dear???
and:
"What is next to die???"
Apart from all that ...
There is a world of difference between what a musicans need to do for their musical soul and what they have to do to pay the rent. Who pays the piper calls the tune - the trick of the piper is to anticipate the call or be bugged all night with requests for Danny Boy. A real good piper will get paid for guessing the audience call for a tune they never heard before .. we call these "stars" - if none aspired, none could follow and .. what was the old school motto? "Per ardua ad astra"?
The least we as traditionalists can do is to make it all as "ardua" as possible <snigger> I'm sure it is the right thing to do.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Mozle
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
FWIW, I wasn't knocking the musicians in Barrage (or certainly Lúnasa, either), and I generally don't begrudge people for making a living just about any way that they can. I can't say that I've had much of a better session than some of the ones that I've played with folks like that.
But while those players may be great traditional players, I was just pointing out that there are a lot of people in this world that may get inspired by the commercial music like that, and not ever spend the time or energy to learn that it isn't traditional. And there are some people who think it *is* traditional, and can't be bothered to learn anything more about the tradition, because they're so stuck on what inspired them to begin with. Sot it's those people who have the potential to drag us down. Generally when I meet people like that, I don't try to shun them, but I do try to help guide them in a different direction.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Amen to that, Reverend.
There remains, however, to address the gulph left by the fall of regional isolation. ITM might easily be left in the same predicament that Latin suffered at the fall of rome - and become something that only gets heard in church - with a different meaning buried under a volcano awaiting future archeologists to missinterpret to the masses.
The truth is that, just as Latin became Italian, Spanish, and was appropriated to clean-up Turkish, so too will ITM become teh bones of something new.
These kids with violins are simply exploring the new language - I for one can forgive them for presenting the odd snippet of tedium day to day ...
But for the custodians? Let us pray and hope it does not devolve into the hands of a Hillsongesque pop church. Rather in the rock'n'roll gutters of true music. Either way - the heart of the past can be legend or be dirt in between mystic shards of pottery. So far the church has made a good go of it, but Saints all live in history, living people can't comfortably exist there. If there's something worth saving - it wil be kept alive one way or another. Movies for instance. I just watched an add for football with a soundtrack - a Pogues-ish rendition of a jig played half-tempo .. presumably slow enough for football enthusiasts to dance to whilst sitting on their sofas, remote in hand .. the bum-cheek-jig. Maybe that will inspire a new genre .. can't wait for the movie!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Mozle
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"Here's an example of young musicians who really can excite & inspire a young audience, ............ but instead of selling out, they do it all by playing the pure drop!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiWPTI1zilc";
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like At First Light can't really be considered "pure drop"?
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by alison kale
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Agreed, not really pure drop at all, I think!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Nico
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
OK, which one of you is pure?
Pure Irish Tradition ~ PIT
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Can you define "pure drop?" Is there even an acceptable definition of it or is it in the Justice Potter Stewart school of "I know it when I see it" (or hear it as the case may be)?
I'm saying that "At First Light" is or isn't (I'd say it's not), I just want to know how you describe it.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Perhaps I should put it this way.
I would regard Donal O'Connor & John McSherry as being pure drop musicians.
Or to put it another way, I know there's no such thing as the best Fiddler or the best Piper, but I don't think you'll find a better Fiddler or Piper in Ireland, than those two lads.
e.g. I think their duets are just as fine as anything Robbie Hannon & Paddy Glackin can produce, on a good day!
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
To Ptarmigan:
I think it's great that you think they're the best, but many people, myself included, would think that they can in fact "find a better Fiddler or Piper in Ireland".
To TheSilverSpear:
I don't think there's a concise, succinct, short definition. I think there are loads of generalizations that can be made, but I'm sure they'd all have exceptions!
For instance, I think a general rule is that bands are not pure drop, even if the musicians are. And an exception would be ceili bands, or groups like Paddy Canny / PJ Hayes / Peader O'Loughlin / Brid Lafferty.
I might also argue that "traditional" and "pure drop" aren't strictly speaking the same thing.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Nico
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
" ... but many people, myself included, would think that they can in fact "find a better Fiddler or Piper in Ireland"."
Nico, I'd be fascinated to hear what you reckon it is about these 'better musicians', that would make them 'better' players, than Donal or John?
Oh yes & surely, either bands can or they cannot, be pure drop?
You can't have it both ways!
So now I'm wondering, is it really an age thing in your book?
In other words, do you reckon you have got to be an ancient musician, before you can be classed as Pure Drop?
If so, I tend to disagree, because from the first time I heard a musician like say Matt Molloy, even as a young man, I would have classed his playing as Pure Drop.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Matt Molloy's playing is extraordinarily innovative. How can that be pure drop?
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by ...
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
How can ceilidh bands be "Pure Drop? In their current form they are 20th century innovations, albeit early 20th century. It sounds as if you are saying that something achieves "Pure Drop" status by virtue of being around for long enough. Is traditional music like whisky?
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
One of the reasons Irish diddley is just so darn splendid, is that it's best proponents have never based their musical choices on whether something is traditional or not. only on quality. Things that are often considered fads get assimilated into the culture extremely quickly. Sometimes to the detriment, sometimes not. I think a good strummed guitar or bazouki is an improvement on the 20s vamping piano for example. But taste is just that, taste, it's subjective
If the concept of a traditional music can have any importance, you have to focus on the collective tastes of innovative individuals. There is no objective tradition. Only the convergence of subjective innovations fuelled by love, understanding and respect.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by ...
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Without innovation Llig, I dread to think what sort of a stinking, stagnant pond ITM would be, by now!
We might still be plodding around with only Planxtys & Marches, turning our noses up at all those foreign Jigs & Reels & such!
Anyway, who decides when the music has become 'perfect'?
Can it ever be perfect?.
I believe it is possible to be innovative within the context of a tradition, using the existing elements, as well as the other kind of innovation, which actually introduces new factors to the equation, like new instruments etc.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I agree with Michael and Ptarmigan -- that's why I'm asking Nico to explain what he means by "Pure Drop" and how he knows when something becomes or ceases being "Pure Drop." The term itself (which probably has etymological history in alcoholic beverages) implies that music that is "Pure Drop" has some sort of superiority over all that impure stuff floating around out there.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Silver Spear:
Since Nico and I have been talking about this at length privately, allow me to attempt to answer some of the mentioned issues. I'd like to point out that this isn't to be considered snarky in any way, nor was my original remark.
"Pure drop" to me means music that has very little influence from outside of Irish traditional music. I don't think that the video Ptarmigan linked to can truly be called pure drop, because the musicians seem to be more entertainers than tradition bearers. The music was very modern, arranged, and influenced by other forms of music like pop and "celtic". I honestly don't have much experience listening to the individual musicians outside of the band, but I would not call At First Light pure drop in the same way I would Denis Murphy and Julia Clifford, or Mick O'Brien and Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh, or many other people attempting to carry on the tradition.
That said, just because something is or is not what I would consider pure drop does not make it better or worse musically. It's really a matter of taste. At this point in my life, I (and Nico as well) prefer to listen to older music that in my opinion rings more true to the pure drop connotation. Pure drop to me is not about the next big thing or trend, it is simply traditional folk music, played well and with the respect it deserves.
There's nothing wrong with bands. I'm in one myself (although we're obviously nowhere near the stardom that At First Light has achieved). I would not call anything we do pure drop however, and I don't even know that I could comfortably call myself this as an individual musician, although I have worked very hard to play as traditionally and as well as possible for a very long time.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by alison kale
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I'll bet that if Edward Bunting and his fellow harpers had the internet then they would have been moaning in Ye Session about the new fangled uilleann pipes aldulterating the "pure drop".
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by dafydd
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Final thoughts. They are not my cup of tea but they are making the music that they want to make.Nobody is forced to buy their cds or attend their concerts,but many do. Good luck to them.A tradtion that does not evolve is a dead tradition.If you want to put it under a glass case in a dusty old museum,go ahead,but like all dusty old museums it will recieve few visitors. If the pure drop faction were in charge from the start,we would all be banging stones together in caves.
# Posted on April 28th 2009 by dafydd
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
'Stoned' out of minds, in Caves ...... sounds like fun to me, dafydd!
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
out of our minds .....
Well, they do say that too much grass, makes you forget what ........
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"Pure Drop to me means music that has very little influence from outside of Irish traditional music."
This is not a definition until you can quantify what "very little" means. And you can't. Ergo, you can't define Pure Drop.
Every single last thing, every instrument, every sound, every note, every articulation, every tune that contributes to the body of this music was once an inovation, new, not traditional. Every single last thing in this music was once not in it. Pure Drop is merely a romantic notion.
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by ...
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Well said, Michael.
Given that people have always traveled, it's pretty improbable that there was ever a point in history when Irish music existed in a pure form, barely touched by outside influences. To be fair, many people classified as "Pure Drop" now would have considered themselves innovative at the time they were alive and playing.
As the uilleann (union) pipes were invented in the late 18th century, they would considered by historians to be "modern" ("early modern" ends at the 17th century).
I understand the the type of music you are talking about and listen to lots of it myself (really, Nico, I do), but would it not make more sense to lose the "Pure Drop" term and call it "Unaccompanied solo or duet Irish traditional music, mostly from the early 20th century?"
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
It doesn't matter what you call it, just don't try to suggest that it can ever be a strict definition
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by ...
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
"Unaccompanied solo or duet Irish traditional music, mostly from the early 20th century"
It hardly rolls off the tongue!
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Anyway, with that description you are effectively labelling that music as the most traditional.
Effectively what we have is a snapshot of traditional music in the 20s when it started being recorded. The problem is there is no way of knowing if that music was any closer to what they were playing in the 1850s than it is to what is played now by bands like At First Light.
Who decides that a showman like Michael Coleman, for example, should represent the tradition in its most pure sense.
I would suggest that "Traditional Irish Music" is a tradition that has constantly been evolving and developing from the earliest days with new innovations all the time. There will always be folk who hark back to "how it used to be played" when they were a lad or in their record collection but why is that really any more traditional?
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
No, I wasn't trying to label anything as "more traditional" than anything else. I was trying to move away from it as that's what "Pure Drop" tries to do, and does very badly. I was trying to explain what it was as neutrally as possible. If you had to describe, say the Cliffords, Bobby Casey, and some others were doing, what I said would sort of work in a few cases. It really sucks, actually, because I was going through a lot of the old stuff on my iTunes and quite of a lot of it has accompaniment. Some of it is interesting, even by "modern" standards. For example, it sounds as if Paddy Carty is being *backed* by a banjo. Weird. I can't imagine why that never caught on.
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Unclear sentence -- by "it sucks" I mean my attempt at labeling. Better to forego labeling completely.
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I have no problem with using basic labelling and classification within music - without it then music shops would have a hell of a time sorting their CDs! I am just wary about the idea that there is anything that is definitively "pure-drop". I also try to think about it as little as possible though. My only criteria to deciding whether to listen to something or not is whether I think it sounds good or not and one of the main issues appears to be whether they playing in tune or not.
I don't care if they are in A440 or not but the notes that are played should be in tune relatively - ie with itself!
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Ok, you're right. Lets just operate under the assumption that all Irish music is the same from now on. Ahhh I feel better already!
Someone better send a memo out to the greater irish music community and let them know our decision!
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by alison kale
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Alistair and I agree on something about Irish music -- stop the presses!
On a more serious note, it is obviously daft to say that "all Irish music is the same." What I am saying is that it is problematic to start classifying things as "more traditional" than others because you have to then define what "more traditional" means and you really can't. It's even more problematic to do it with loaded terms like "pure drop" which sounds pretentious even if *you* don't mean it that way. Anyway, it's not just Irish music that has this problem. Any kind of classificatory scheme that tries to order things that aren't really quantifiable into neat categories, regardless of what those things are, is rife with problems. People have PhDs and scientific careers based on this.
I'd just take things as they are and not worry about saying that Seamus Ennis and Paddy Carty are in one category and John McSherry and Donal O'Connor are in another. As Alistair said, just decide on a case-by-case basis whether you like it and it sounds good.
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
To me the mother of such discussions is "What is a Folk Song?".
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by kuec
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Ah by Emily, you like those out of tune fiddlers so there is still some ground between us!
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Aye, this is the distant cousin of the age-old discussion, "What is pornography?"
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
They are an acquired taste, Ali, like really peaty Islay whisky.
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Why would I want to acquire a taste for out of tune music? If I have the choice between a session that is out of tune and one that is in tune I pick the in tune one. The same logic applies to my CD collection.
What is a folk song/pornography?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VZXV7aTl24
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
Oh dear! Just watched more of this guy and for a comedian he seems to have missed the funny gene!
# Posted on April 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
A folk song is a Scottish murder ballad sung in an Irish accent by an Englishman in a Welsh pub.
It is an expression of one's deepest identity.
Or maybe, it is an expression of the identity one wants at the time. And one might want it after lots of beer - no friend to reason, as we all know.
In which case, it is an expression of existential confusion on an alarming scale.
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
That guy's been around for years and I've always found it bewildering how he ever got a career in comedy, as he's just not very funny. And if you think he's a rubbish comic, you should see his acting. It's even worse!
# Posted on April 30th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Am I just getting too OLD, or ..............
I thought the Barrage clip was terrific, not what I want to listen to or play, but was also struck by something about it I couldn't put my finger on. Later I got it; they move like characters from cartoons my boys (now in their 20s) used to watch. Power Rangers/Mutant Turtles do Irish fiddle....
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by cag