"NEW Jam Mode applies near zero latency to your instrument while synchronizing the audio streams from the other players in your session -- creating an easy to use, easy to play, fun and casual jamming experience."
"eJamming's classic Sync Mode provides tight synchrony for regional eJamming sessions where the Sync Setting is under 50mS (milliseconds) between players."
The speed of light in a vacuum is about 186000 miles per second.
The circumference of the Earth is about 25000 miles.
A beam of light under ideal conditions of vacuum and reflectors would therefore take at least 1/15 of a second (68ms) to get from one side of the Earth to the other.
1/15 of a second is a noticeable time interval to a musician.
Internet cables, electronic relays, several servers in the line, as well as the communicating computers at either end will all be considerably slower than the speed of light in vacuo, so I have great difficulty in understanding how a near-zero latency between three or four players can be achieved other than over a distance so short that they might as well be live in the same room.
Aside from the question of whether you would want such a session and all the "you people and yer newfangled technologies, get down the pub and get some real social interaction", the actual feasibility is interesting.
Lazyhound's point is perfectly correct. But I think something fundamental is missing in this analysis: sound travels quite slowly.
The question becomes "what is a reasonable time interval for a musician". The problem is evident in an orchestra - because of the distance between the players, they simply could *not* play together without a conductor. And even with a conductor, I wonder how the difference in time between the arrival of sounds from the back and sounds from the front is handled. Do the percussionnists get in the habit of being a few milliseconds ahead of the conductor (in spite of the fact that this correction will make them appear doubly ahead of the sounds they hear from the soloist at the front?).
So anyway. Lazyhound claims a minimum of 1/15th of a second for a sound to go all the way around the world and says this is a meaningful interval for a musician. These ejamming people talk of 1/20th of a second for "regional" people - regional in this context could easily be several hundred kilometers.
Compare this with session sizes (in physical distance between players and time it takes for sound to cover this distance).
Two people 17m away can't play together in any reasonably meaningful way (barring a conductor, or people in between who help "mediate" the timing).
But if the latency were to move from 50ms to 20ms (big if), you get the size of a big session. Get it down to 10ms (3000km at the speed of light) and you have a situation which has to be reasonable, given that musicians play at those kinds of difference from each other all the time.
So in answer to hup, a 17m orchestra is probably a fairly frequent occurence and is exactly equivalent in latency terms to what this technology offers.
I remember being fascinated by a visual representation of the spead of sound once while playing a large stadium gig. The crowd were clapping above their heads in time, but what you saw were waves of clapping moving from the front to the back at the spead of sound. It was an amazing sight.
I am told by a neighbour who has spent time on a parade ground that thats why marching bands have the guy with the big batton and that it takes practice to march in time with what your are seeing not what you are hearing, especially if you are at the back
I've known conductors to ask double bassists, in particular, to anticipate the beat because the heavy bass strings take an appreciable time to respond compared with the violins or even cellos. In an orchestra or any other music ensemble eye contact is of the essence. When an orchestral player is awaiting a cue for a solo entry a good conductor will engage that player's eye a bar before the entry; an inexperienced conductor would look at the player just as the player starts playing ... You'll see this happen in films when an actor is "conducting" an orchestra.
The upper limit for a conductorless ensemble is about a dozen; above that number, the logistics of eye contact between the players becomes too complex and a single focal point (i.e. a conductor or director) is necessary.
It's not uncommon in amateur orchestras for a wave of sound to progress from the front to the back of a string section - this is because they're listening and watching the player in front and not the conductor, as they should be.
What happens in the percussion lazyhound ? Do big drums get struck at different times to triangles ?
(and no I am not going to go down the obvious route from there...)
It sounds like a good idea, but that timing thing won't work.
There is a good idea for us sessioners.
Are there any more aspiring engineers here other than me to help design an online session that works quicker than the speed of light?
We might need a bigger computer...
Round-trip over 100km is at 9ms from where I am (so it responds after about 4ms). you then have to factor in the latency introduced by microphones, sampling and all that malarky. Can that be in the 10ms ballpark? Then it will work.
Don't forget to factor in the inbuilt human latency, or reaction time, which can be anything between 50 ms (very good) and 2 secs, depending on the, ahem!, circumstances.
David, not quite sure about that one, but the percussion instruments tend to have a quick start-up, and an orchestra/conductor will try to get the best percussionists they can lay their hands on - an inadequate percussionist is distinctly bad news!
With an orchestra or choir the conductor is the focal point for the timing - you can't really do it any other way playing live. What happens to the timing of the sound out there in the auditorium behind the conductor is beyond his control. Although, during a rehearsal a conductor will often put down his baton while the orchestra continues playing and go to the back of the auditorium to check on the balance.
Delays in timing, for what ever reason, are often not overcome by poor musicians. The feckin shakey egg is the worst offender. People shake it on the beat, but the things inside take time to move. Stummers are often really bad with it. They move their arm in time, but starting from a few inches from the strings means their strumming is delayed. Really really really feckin annoying.
Totally agree with the shakey egg comment, regarding its delay (even worse when they don't even shake the damned things on the beat) - the only thing I can think of with a longer delay is in campanology, though I can't say I've tried it
Thanks lazyhound. OK despite the promise, and because others have brought it up...
I *think*, from my experience including recording myself and analyzing recordings, that a bodhran played for a soft 'thump' hitting the centre of the skin needs to be hit slightly earlier than when played with a hand on the back of the skin to get a hard 'slap'. And, seperately, I am not sure that we perceive thumps and slaps the same way in terms of timing (similar maybe to llig's point made some time ago about dynamics affecting the sense if lilt or swing). So your comment about the double bassists caught my notice.
But them we get to llig's point (and he complained sometime ago about a banjo player doing the same thing). I'm unconvinced about the reasoning. Most movements that we make involve anticipation of the end of the action. Can these people catch a ball ? Do they trip over going up steps? Isn't NOT LISTENING a simpler explanation ?
But then would have thought a double bass player would be used to getting the string to sound on the beat. Could it be that from close to the instrument the attack of the note sounds different to when it has developed over a few metres through the air. Would sound reinforcement with foldback change things ?
(Change ringing on bells is different domnull, the delay is so large that it can easily be percieved and assessed. To a beginner the hard bit can be knowing which sound goes with your actions)
So is this system introducing a delay in how each player hears themselves ? So like you are hearing yourself from a monitor a few metres away by which time the others are in sync ?
thats what i understood from what the demonstrator was saying, goin to set up an account to check now i think, im too curious as to whether it works :P
There was a similar thing that appeared a few years ago called Ninjam, which we discussed a few times. (Search the discussions for Ninjam, you'll find them).
I haven't played with any of these things. And even though I'm a techie, I have no real desire to play with them, other than to figure out what you're doing.
One of the things I think Ninjam did was work in a musical environment that was more open to "jamming" and improvisation. Something like Irish music is too rapid and regimented rhythmically to work with a "jamming" environment like that.
This one talks about how it will "adjust for latency" up to 50ms (which is a fair amount, musically speaking). Don't know how they would do that, exactly...
And they say that further latency is handled as a recording session, where you're just adding to the recording, not in real time. I have a high speed internet connection, situated in a tech-heavy area. And I can sometimes get a 50ms ping to google, which has servers spread around. But about the best ping times I could get to Ireland or the UK are going to be about 150ms, and usually more. That's just a fact of life.
I do share tunes with some friends via video chat. Our latency times are even higher with that. And you can't play "together". So while we may teach each other tunes. If we're both playing, one of us has to be the "leader", and then ignore the sound coming back from the other person. The "follower" can then just play along at the time that it sounds like it's synchronized. That works well for learning. But not for "playing together"
I agree with Reverend. At the BBC in London in the 1980s when we had contributions from studios around the UK, it wasn't a problem to send them what is known in the industry as "cue programme" which is basically, what the listener hears at home, including their own voice. But toward the end of the 80's the increasing number of digital links meant that you would get delays which would make it impossible for a person to speak coherently (they'd sound drunk!) because their voice was going say 100 miles to a studio and then coming back the same distance to them and being fed into their headphones an appreciable fraction of a second later.
In TV studios now the sound has to be electronically delayed in the studio by about 1/12th of a second, because all the video processing equipment adds its own delay to the picture, and if sound arrives before the video, we don't tolerate that ("sound being in advance of what you see" is the opposite of what normally happens).
All systems which involve distances and/or digital processing, are going to be rife with problems. Good musicians can anticipate the beat but that's difficult. The nearest I've ever come to that was in playing the organ in large churches where the keyboard is separated by a great distance from the actual instrument - and there, you can often end up playing a bar or so in front of what you hear. I was used to doing this but I remember a pianist friend of mine had a go at playing, and came to a complete halt - he simply couldn't cope with the delay. If you can adjust to that, then maybe you can do an online session!
As a punter I had not realised what all that sound paraphenalia on a concert stage was for until I asked a question from the back of a large auditorium at a work conference and someone handed me a microphone. So disoriented I nearly forgot what I was going to say. The next day I gave a presentation and the monitor on the speaker's lectern packed up part way through. Second part of the lesson in why the technology is there (when it has to be).
Hi all, I've signed up. The process is slightly flaky but you can edit your info afterwards once you install the software. The video example on the site does sound exactly like people are struggling to stay in time with each other and maybe it won't work with all genres of music, but hey, I'll try anything once (apart from nudity and heights). I can see it might have a great application for online teaching but I think most people use skype for things like that.
I just now try it and the first impresion it´s quite good. The only idea to play with other people in the distance or not, with a quite well quality and the support of eJamming people in the forum/chat It´s fantastic. The next step to play more time, with different people and take our conclusions. Price:my electric fiddle, my computer and my ADSL. At this moment, i think it´s a very good application. Bye
Ahh, but see? Nobody who has tried it has explained how they handle up to a 50ms latency. My guess is "sloppily"
One of the things that makes Irish trad so enjoyable is a tight groove. And anything that muddies the groove is bound to have a negative impact.
So again, it might be useful for something like teaching a tune, but I really wouldn't want to spend much time trying to play like that... If you're jamming the blues, with a more relaxed pace, and no unison playing, it probably works ok.
Online session?
Online session?
Anyone tried this?
http://www.ejamming.com/learnmore/
"NEW Jam Mode applies near zero latency to your instrument while synchronizing the audio streams from the other players in your session -- creating an easy to use, easy to play, fun and casual jamming experience."
"eJamming's classic Sync Mode provides tight synchrony for regional eJamming sessions where the Sync Setting is under 50mS (milliseconds) between players."
It looks interesting.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Pere
Re: Online session?
Sounds pretty cool. Have you tried it?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by pipersgrip
Re: Online session?
Indeed it does... I want to try it sometime.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by JosephC
Re: Online session?
It can't work
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Online session?
...nor should it work
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Online session?
Yeah, I can't see how it could work except with some sort of sloppy
blues jam or New Age noodling
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Hup
Re: Online session?
The speed of light in a vacuum is about 186000 miles per second.
The circumference of the Earth is about 25000 miles.
A beam of light under ideal conditions of vacuum and reflectors would therefore take at least 1/15 of a second (68ms) to get from one side of the Earth to the other.
1/15 of a second is a noticeable time interval to a musician.
Internet cables, electronic relays, several servers in the line, as well as the communicating computers at either end will all be considerably slower than the speed of light in vacuo, so I have great difficulty in understanding how a near-zero latency between three or four players can be achieved other than over a distance so short that they might as well be live in the same room.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Online session?
Ha ha - there's even a problem sometimes coordinating one end
of a big orchestra with the far end
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Hup
Re: Online session?
We have enough latency issues at our local session, tunes ricocheting from one end of the table to the other....
Also the whiskey latency effect....
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Online session?
it's the daftest thing I've seen in a while
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by munya beor
Re: Online session?
Aside from the question of whether you would want such a session and all the "you people and yer newfangled technologies, get down the pub and get some real social interaction", the actual feasibility is interesting.
Lazyhound's point is perfectly correct. But I think something fundamental is missing in this analysis: sound travels quite slowly.
The question becomes "what is a reasonable time interval for a musician". The problem is evident in an orchestra - because of the distance between the players, they simply could *not* play together without a conductor. And even with a conductor, I wonder how the difference in time between the arrival of sounds from the back and sounds from the front is handled. Do the percussionnists get in the habit of being a few milliseconds ahead of the conductor (in spite of the fact that this correction will make them appear doubly ahead of the sounds they hear from the soloist at the front?).
So anyway. Lazyhound claims a minimum of 1/15th of a second for a sound to go all the way around the world and says this is a meaningful interval for a musician. These ejamming people talk of 1/20th of a second for "regional" people - regional in this context could easily be several hundred kilometers.
Compare this with session sizes (in physical distance between players and time it takes for sound to cover this distance).
1/15th : 22m
1/20th : 17m
1/50th : 7m
1/100th : 3.5m
Two people 17m away can't play together in any reasonably meaningful way (barring a conductor, or people in between who help "mediate" the timing).
But if the latency were to move from 50ms to 20ms (big if), you get the size of a big session. Get it down to 10ms (3000km at the speed of light) and you have a situation which has to be reasonable, given that musicians play at those kinds of difference from each other all the time.
So meaningless? Problematic? maybe
Completely impossible? no!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Online session?
So in answer to hup, a 17m orchestra is probably a fairly frequent occurence and is exactly equivalent in latency terms to what this technology offers.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Online session?
I remember being fascinated by a visual representation of the spead of sound once while playing a large stadium gig. The crowd were clapping above their heads in time, but what you saw were waves of clapping moving from the front to the back at the spead of sound. It was an amazing sight.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Online session?
I am told by a neighbour who has spent time on a parade ground that thats why marching bands have the guy with the big batton and that it takes practice to march in time with what your are seeing not what you are hearing, especially if you are at the back
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Online session?
I've known conductors to ask double bassists, in particular, to anticipate the beat because the heavy bass strings take an appreciable time to respond compared with the violins or even cellos. In an orchestra or any other music ensemble eye contact is of the essence. When an orchestral player is awaiting a cue for a solo entry a good conductor will engage that player's eye a bar before the entry; an inexperienced conductor would look at the player just as the player starts playing ... You'll see this happen in films when an actor is "conducting" an orchestra.
The upper limit for a conductorless ensemble is about a dozen; above that number, the logistics of eye contact between the players becomes too complex and a single focal point (i.e. a conductor or director) is necessary.
It's not uncommon in amateur orchestras for a wave of sound to progress from the front to the back of a string section - this is because they're listening and watching the player in front and not the conductor, as they should be.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Online session?
What happens in the percussion lazyhound ? Do big drums get struck at different times to triangles ?
(and no I am not going to go down the obvious route from there...)
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Online session?
It sounds like a good idea, but that timing thing won't work.
There is a good idea for us sessioners.
Are there any more aspiring engineers here other than me to help design an online session that works quicker than the speed of light?
We might need a bigger computer...
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by jlocky
Re: Online session?
Of course the timing thing will work! Not at 50ms latency, but once we reach 20-10ms latency why wouldn't it?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Online session?
Round-trip over 100km is at 9ms from where I am (so it responds after about 4ms). you then have to factor in the latency introduced by microphones, sampling and all that malarky. Can that be in the 10ms ballpark? Then it will work.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Online session?
Don't forget to factor in the inbuilt human latency, or reaction time, which can be anything between 50 ms (very good) and 2 secs, depending on the, ahem!, circumstances.
David, not quite sure about that one, but the percussion instruments tend to have a quick start-up, and an orchestra/conductor will try to get the best percussionists they can lay their hands on - an inadequate percussionist is distinctly bad news!
With an orchestra or choir the conductor is the focal point for the timing - you can't really do it any other way playing live. What happens to the timing of the sound out there in the auditorium behind the conductor is beyond his control. Although, during a rehearsal a conductor will often put down his baton while the orchestra continues playing and go to the back of the auditorium to check on the balance.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Online session?
Delays in timing, for what ever reason, are often not overcome by poor musicians. The feckin shakey egg is the worst offender. People shake it on the beat, but the things inside take time to move. Stummers are often really bad with it. They move their arm in time, but starting from a few inches from the strings means their strumming is delayed. Really really really feckin annoying.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Online session?
human latency is exactly the same, whatever the medium for transmission of sound.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Online session?
Totally agree with the shakey egg comment, regarding its delay (even worse when they don't even shake the damned things on the beat) - the only thing I can think of with a longer delay is in campanology, though I can't say I've tried it
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by domnull
Re: Online session?
Watch this vid from about 2:40 -> 3:20 and the guy tries to explain how it works, might shed more light on it, im still a bit sceptical about it tho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GusCPIQ4GF0
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Joneser
Re: Online session?
Thanks lazyhound. OK despite the promise, and because others have brought it up...
I *think*, from my experience including recording myself and analyzing recordings, that a bodhran played for a soft 'thump' hitting the centre of the skin needs to be hit slightly earlier than when played with a hand on the back of the skin to get a hard 'slap'. And, seperately, I am not sure that we perceive thumps and slaps the same way in terms of timing (similar maybe to llig's point made some time ago about dynamics affecting the sense if lilt or swing). So your comment about the double bassists caught my notice.
But them we get to llig's point (and he complained sometime ago about a banjo player doing the same thing). I'm unconvinced about the reasoning. Most movements that we make involve anticipation of the end of the action. Can these people catch a ball ? Do they trip over going up steps? Isn't NOT LISTENING a simpler explanation ?
But then would have thought a double bass player would be used to getting the string to sound on the beat. Could it be that from close to the instrument the attack of the note sounds different to when it has developed over a few metres through the air. Would sound reinforcement with foldback change things ?
(Change ringing on bells is different domnull, the delay is so large that it can easily be percieved and assessed. To a beginner the hard bit can be knowing which sound goes with your actions)
Puzzling, fascinating.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Online session?
So is this system introducing a delay in how each player hears themselves ? So like you are hearing yourself from a monitor a few metres away by which time the others are in sync ?
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Online session?
thats what i understood from what the demonstrator was saying, goin to set up an account to check now i think, im too curious as to whether it works :P
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Joneser
Re: Online session?
A discussion i had with people in the lobby after making my account:
joneser: im just here out of curiosity really, can anyone tell me if this actually works?
THP32: Hi..Yes it does
THP32: I;m on lunch break...got like 2 min left..but yes..stay with it and you will be blown away on how this place works
garyddeen: Ive been testing this a bunch...
garyddeen: It's really pretty awesome...
joneser: i just find it hard to believe there is no delay between players
garyddeen: Of course there is delay... Any time you put
garyddeen: a PC in the audio stream there is a delay...
THP32: I was jammin with a guy from Scotland and I'm from Maine ..east coast
THP32: no lag at all
garyddeen: The only question is 25 ms noticable to you.....
ThunderPup44: The trick is, you feel no delay on your own instrument
garyddeen: probably not...
joneser: so it works as if your in the same room?
garyddeen: kinda
ThunderPup44: then slide your playing together until you're all in the groove
THP32: this site makes correction for the ms
joneser: ah k, thanks alot
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Joneser
Re: Online session?
er I am confused .Are they claiming to go back slightly in time ?
Good trick if they can do it
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Online session?
There was a similar thing that appeared a few years ago called Ninjam, which we discussed a few times. (Search the discussions for Ninjam, you'll find them).
I haven't played with any of these things. And even though I'm a techie, I have no real desire to play with them, other than to figure out what you're doing.
One of the things I think Ninjam did was work in a musical environment that was more open to "jamming" and improvisation. Something like Irish music is too rapid and regimented rhythmically to work with a "jamming" environment like that.
This one talks about how it will "adjust for latency" up to 50ms (which is a fair amount, musically speaking). Don't know how they would do that, exactly...
And they say that further latency is handled as a recording session, where you're just adding to the recording, not in real time. I have a high speed internet connection, situated in a tech-heavy area. And I can sometimes get a 50ms ping to google, which has servers spread around. But about the best ping times I could get to Ireland or the UK are going to be about 150ms, and usually more. That's just a fact of life.
I do share tunes with some friends via video chat. Our latency times are even higher with that. And you can't play "together". So while we may teach each other tunes. If we're both playing, one of us has to be the "leader", and then ignore the sound coming back from the other person. The "follower" can then just play along at the time that it sounds like it's synchronized. That works well for learning. But not for "playing together"
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Online session?
I agree with Reverend. At the BBC in London in the 1980s when we had contributions from studios around the UK, it wasn't a problem to send them what is known in the industry as "cue programme" which is basically, what the listener hears at home, including their own voice. But toward the end of the 80's the increasing number of digital links meant that you would get delays which would make it impossible for a person to speak coherently (they'd sound drunk!) because their voice was going say 100 miles to a studio and then coming back the same distance to them and being fed into their headphones an appreciable fraction of a second later.
In TV studios now the sound has to be electronically delayed in the studio by about 1/12th of a second, because all the video processing equipment adds its own delay to the picture, and if sound arrives before the video, we don't tolerate that ("sound being in advance of what you see" is the opposite of what normally happens).
All systems which involve distances and/or digital processing, are going to be rife with problems. Good musicians can anticipate the beat but that's difficult. The nearest I've ever come to that was in playing the organ in large churches where the keyboard is separated by a great distance from the actual instrument - and there, you can often end up playing a bar or so in front of what you hear. I was used to doing this but I remember a pianist friend of mine had a go at playing, and came to a complete halt - he simply couldn't cope with the delay. If you can adjust to that, then maybe you can do an online session!
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Online session?
It is real simple how it works. The server just sends your sound out several milliseconds before it gets it.
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by handsaw
Re: Online session?
As a punter I had not realised what all that sound paraphenalia on a concert stage was for until I asked a question from the back of a large auditorium at a work conference and someone handed me a microphone. So disoriented I nearly forgot what I was going to say. The next day I gave a presentation and the monitor on the speaker's lectern packed up part way through. Second part of the lesson in why the technology is there (when it has to be).
# Posted on April 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Online session?
HEY PEOPLE I TRIED IT >>>>ITS GOOD LITTLE LAG BUT VERY SLIGHT YEGET USE TO >>>>ALSO WAS PLAYIN TUNES AND GUY FROM CANADA WAS BACKING ME
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Online session?
WHAT???? Does the lag in the software make it harder for other people on the internet to hear so you have to yell, like being in a really crowded pub?
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
pardon?
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Online session?
Hi all, I've signed up. The process is slightly flaky but you can edit your info afterwards once you install the software. The video example on the site does sound exactly like people are struggling to stay in time with each other and maybe it won't work with all genres of music, but hey, I'll try anything once (apart from nudity and heights). I can see it might have a great application for online teaching but I think most people use skype for things like that.
# Posted on April 25th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Online session?
I just now try it and the first impresion it´s quite good. The only idea to play with other people in the distance or not, with a quite well quality and the support of eJamming people in the forum/chat It´s fantastic. The next step to play more time, with different people and take our conclusions. Price:my electric fiddle, my computer and my ADSL. At this moment, i think it´s a very good application. Bye
# Posted on April 26th 2009 by alejandrocr
Re: Online session?
Ahh, but see? Nobody who has tried it has explained how they handle up to a 50ms latency. My guess is "sloppily"
One of the things that makes Irish trad so enjoyable is a tight groove. And anything that muddies the groove is bound to have a negative impact.
So again, it might be useful for something like teaching a tune, but I really wouldn't want to spend much time trying to play like that... If you're jamming the blues, with a more relaxed pace, and no unison playing, it probably works ok.
# Posted on April 27th 2009 by Reverend