I was sitting next to this guitar player last night who just started playing this kind of music, and we were talking about learning tunes, and how some people try to learn them at the sessions themselves, and I asked her if she had cds she listens to at home. And she said---wait for it---that she didn’t like to listen to Irish music; she preferred to play it. Well, I sat there a while, confused at how that’s even possible…
Then I asked her what cds she’d been listening to, and she said she had the Comhaltas cd at home (the one with the dozens of session tunes). Then it made sense. I wouldn’t want to listen to that stuff either! So I wrote down a list of all the guitar players and bands I could think of for her and told her to have fun looking them up on YouTube.
Someone obviously told her to buy that Comhaltas cd. Who are these people who listen to that stuff? Why would anyone listen to dreck like that when there is so much really good music to be heard?
I agree. But, it's really hard to find a decent "study" CD. Most of the things that come with method books have a very poor quality companion CD with the tunes at a snails pace once through. Fine for learning notes but not much more.
The one exception that I've found is Shannon Heaton's Oil for the Chain. The companion CD is very listenable and enjoyable on it's own. The tunes are at a nice easy pace but not so slow you'd get bored. I've been using this with a tune class that I've been teaching since January. My hope was that they would listen more and absorb more than just the notes. I think it's working. This group has a great sense of the swing of tunes although I always have to record a slower version for them to play along with.
It's not meant to be a windup, Bernie. I was honestly very surprised that anyone's exposure to traditional music would be only live sessions and the Comhaltas cds, especially when there are so many really good artists to listen to. Actually, I think that's one of the better things about this website---the discussions here are full of great suggestions for listening material.
steady on Kennedy, i don't listen to Irish Trad either or any other music for that matter by personal choice
and the music and musicians of Comhaltas (present and yesteryear) are proud in spirit and more than worthy custodians of this living Tradition, and (like water off a ducks back) they've brushed aside the 'dreckers' over the decades
What's happening with this Board lately? Has the heat of the summer madness come early?
Funny, I was chatting with a backer the other day, he 'confessed' that he doesnt listen to trad, but not as a confession, ,more a boast. Sad to say, but no surprise, he's a pretty poor backer! He has a few standards and thats about it, anything out of his comfort zone and he's stumped. So what does he do? plays the wrong chords in the wrong places, or even the right chords in the wrong places. Sigh, I've tried to talk to him about this a few times but he's of the impression that backing trad is easy. So I've pretty much given up, though if we stick to a few old standards like the pinch of snuff say, he can manage them. But I find it incredibly frustrating to work with someone who has stopped progressing.
Ive never heard these 'infamous' Comhaltas CDs so I cant comment.
Peter, have you heard the new Seamus Creigh CD for learners?
Why would you bother playing a (any) genre of music you don't listen to? I never had the inclination to do that. I like japanese folk music. I don't listen to a lot of it. I'd never try to inflict myself, by playing along with, a group of people who played it.
Certainly looks like a windup thread, the only red rags that are missing are the dots and bodhran. Personally I can't avoid listening to this great music, it's on the radio 2 hours every night and I never miss a single show, I guess I am just lucky to have that. Come to think of it I rarely listen to any other kind of music, but I only play ITM these days.
As a guitar player, it is unimaginable that someone would try to back this music without listening to it to the point of immersion. I have picked up the music by listening in sessions, practicing while playing cd's, practicing with other musicians, and using this site to listen to midi files.
The midi files here are not exactly what I would call Irish music, they sound very artificial most of the time; but, they provide a guide for the tune that I can then play for practice.
I have spent a lot of time tuning my ear to the music and musical structure, so I can very my chords and strumming to go with what the melody players are doing. I have also learned and can play quite a few melodies; that has been critical in my ability to anticipate where to go with my backing.
As Bernie mentioned, ITM is the only music I am listening to these days, except for a little bluegrass and old time stuff. I listen to drive the tunes into my subconscious. I find myself moving to chords without even thinking about it.
The music plays me now, not the other way around. I don't think a backer on any instrument can appropriately play this music if they haven't spent a lot of time listening to the tunes and learning melodies.
I find listening to the KitchenSession pieces a good bench mark for tunes. OK the pace it a little quick (for a beginner), but it provides some good tunes, plus there are breaks in between, that are usually pretty interesting to listen to as well...
Bernie, I'm talking specifically about the session cds, not the radio show. Comhaltas does a lot of good stuff too, but those session cds are just the last things I would ever recommend for a newbie to listen to, See for yourself---there's the Comhaltas version:
I don't find those Comhaltas clips at all inspiring---and neither did the guitar player I was talking to last night; she just didn't know there is better stuff out there.
One might listen to the Comhaltas CDs, or recordings of other sessions, to get a feel for what happens when different instruments play 'in unison' but not as part of an arrangment for a commercial recording.
I crossed with you kennedy. I had a long car drive yesterday and made up a CD with various versions of tunes I am working on. It included several pairings like those, plus recordings of sessions. All grist to the mill. I sure know which environment I am likely to find myself playing in !
Kennedy,
I'm with you. While I own two of the 3 comhaltas cds I rarely listen to them...if ever. I gave it my best shot and at some point decided that they were rushed and garbled at best. No slag on the players. They're obviously competent. I also have issues with the harp player, who's obviouosly good, but always behind the others...all in all a bad sonic experience.
There are also other better recorded places to learn tunes as you suggest aside from commercial realeases.
Some fiddle tutors I think are decent: Cathal Hayden's cd rom, Matt Crantich, Kevin Burke..tutor tape can't speak for his dvd/vhs cd/tapes.
That's funny, I listened to those clips and found them very well done, but a trifle slow. They are probably taking it easy because they are playing for learners.
Its simply not fair to compare Dervish, to the Session cds. They are different things . One is a professional band, one is a bunch of folk sitting down in a session and playing a few tunes nice and aesy for learners. How can you compare them?
Ionannas, that's exactly my point, you've nailed it. It's a cd for learners that sounds dull and uninspiring. And *boring*. What's the point in that? Shouldn't learners be listening to the very best in the genre? Follow the very best example?
I don't get this whole concept of learners' cds. Every cd is a learner's cd. You listen to it, you learn. Right?
Yes Ionannas exactly. No use trying to learn a tune by listening to professional bands like those they have their own arrangements and if anything play too fast. Professionals make cds to earn money. The sessions cds are made for the purpose of learning and played at a steady pace and are therefore much better.
Ionannas, in fact, many of the tunes on the Comhaltas cds are played *too fast* for anyone's comfort let along 'beginners'....not all, but many.
Dervish? hmmm. maybe
Now Mary MacNamara, Pat O'Connor, Kittty Hayes and the like or The Raineys or the many other worthies from times past like Padraig O'K, Julia Clifford and her brother etc etc etc...that's where I'd go.
I was going to send in a reply, but Ionannas saved me the bother of typing most of it out.
I've only listened to bits and pieces of the comhaltas recordings, but they struck me as honest recordings of a fairly large collection of people trying to play clearly and at a leisurely but acceptable pace for learning.
Pretty well suited for the purposes for which it was produced.
Yes I enjoyed the Dervish clip more. But trad music isn't primarily about professional bands. If people only ever listened to the slick arrangements found on most modern commercial recodings by bands then I think they would miss out on what traditional music is really about. Mind I'm not saying they should sit down and listen to the three CCE cds all the way through instead.
To be honest if a beginer, or anyone really, wants to be inspired then I think they would be better off looking for clips of players on either youtube or the Comhaltas website.
Youtube has some fantastic stuff, but also a lot of really poor stuff. I think everything I've watched on the comhaltas site has been well worth the visit, particualry as most of the clips are of single players or small groups of folks playing the tunes rather than some overly studiofied and studied arrangement on a commercial cd.
(Although now that I think of it, I've mostly only gone to the CCE site to look up clips recommended on boards such as this, so to be fair maybe I've only seen the best clips. But what I have seen is good).
>I don't get this whole concept of learners' cds. Every cd is a >learner's cd. You listen to it, you learn. Right?
Not sure I entirely agree with this.
Yes you can learn off any CD, but what will you be learning?
You will be learning the tunes. But perhpas you will also be learning the latest commercial gimmick or hook designed to improve the cross over appeal and therefore cd sales of the band.
No problem with bands doing this, they're trying to make a living. But how to separate out a passing fashion from something more universal? (My own pet hate, trendy syncopated arrangements reproduced in sessions, yuk ).
Paring down the arrangements is better for learning. Ok on the CCE cds you have many instruments going at once to there is some flattening out of the tunes as well, but good fro picking up the basic tune.
Listen to a solo player or small group playing in the style of the videos on the cce site (and yes on many, but by no means all cds) is of course best.
In my opinion anyway, the value of which I make no extravengant claims for.
That CD,IMO is made so, once you have the tunes in basic form you can pump up the volume and be a part of a virtual session.
I listen to say, Bobby Casey, John Vesey,John Doherty. But Its for listening, I listen for enjoyment as I marvel at their music, I listen to see what the masters do with the same framework of a tune, not to play along with. Living in Co Clare I have sessions to sit in any time I chose. Besides I dont play ITM to sit in sessions, though of course I do sometimes. I play because I love it, the tunes the limitless potential for improvement, the challenge, the fun.
I disagree kennedy about the CD being uninspiring, boring[well the 2 tunes I just heard!] etc Thats what sessions are in a way, a common denominator, something that is achievable and real, a practical aspiration for a majority of players.
What inspires you? what do you hope to achieve? what do you want from music? what are you comparing them to? what are you used to listening to? What are your cultural underpinnings? Where do you come from and where do you want to go? Are your aspirations unrealistic? so many questions, but IMO thinking about these things will help you understand yourself better, and once that is achieved things can get a lot easier and clearer for you .
OK Ive moved beyond the source material. I could have deleted that but WTF those are my thoughts.
Back to the source; IMO any group effort is a compromise. Only by listening to unaccompanied masters of the genre will you be able to form a clear understanding of what ITM is about at heart. Sure groups are fun and can be totally amazing but at heart a group is comprised of individuals, sometimes the group gestalt can lift a bunch of so so musicians up to another level and vice versa.
What do you play trad for? is there a why at all? for me its just something Ive pretty much always done, Ive always wanted to play since i was a wee kid of about 4 I knew what I wanted to do. Literally, sat at my grandmothers piano, I knew. It took me a few years to convince my parents but at 9 I got my first guitar and I haven't looked back since .
What is music for you? a hobby, your vocation? questions questions!
One of the hardest things to learn in this music, is what not to learn. And you ain't never gonna learn what not to learn until you've already learned it.
When you are young, or new to it, you learn everything. It's only hindsight that can tell you what you shouldn't have learned.
Sure, a good teacher can tell you what not to learn, but you will never really understand why until you've gone through the process of learning and discarding.
So I don't see a problem with it. It's all part of learning.
The real issue seems to be, why anyone would want to play the music if they don't want to listen to it?
Being stuck on one CD without motivation to go and seek out anything else is a little odd. To me, if you love the music and want to play it, you'd be motivated to listen to as much of as it as you could, and go seek it out yourself.
Unfortunatly, a lot of session goers are not really interested in the music at all. They see it as an irritating side issue that gets in the way of just wanting to join in with something, anything. That's why you get so many people playing instruments that can't play tunes, they simply can't be bothered with tunes.
Im sad to say I have to agree with you llig! , not sad because I agree, but sad because of the situation.
But its not only this type who play percussion instruments remember, dont tar all bodhran players with the same brush!
SWFL, to answer your question, in that particular case its for the money [and the fun.] If there were no cash he probably wouldn't bother. In fact I know he wouldn't. He has a family to feed and he has to earn a living as his main priority.[ within the lifestyle he has chosen].
Ahh mtodd, I have to say that those CD's are not fast by any means. They reflect a ' relaxed approach to the music. One I am in favour of actually to a certain degree, but fast ? not at all I can assure you that You will find here in Ireland sessions that fairly blast along, all in perfect form, Recordings of older solo musicians are often done at a comfortable relaxed pace, to explore the subtleties and depth that they bring to the table. But the younger players who are free and a bit wild, for fun, after a few bevies can let rip! Thats where my heart lies to be honest
Aye, I agree with you all as well. I have met a fair few musicians at sessions who profess to never listen to folk music. I find this sad, as I believe (as you guys apparently do) that to really understand and be empathetic to the tunes, you have to listen to loads of it. One time I had a conversation with a fella who was like, "I never listen to folk music. I don't like it." I asked why he played then. "Oh," he said. "It's really easy. So might as well."
Llig, the problem is that this guitar player thought she didn't like listening to traditional music because she had listened to her Comhaltas cd and didn't like that---and thought that's what it was supposed to sound like---she was new to the genre and didn't know that there are many other recordings that are much much better. Don't you think that's sad? I think it's a great shame that someone recommended it to her as a place to start learning about the music. It's dull, listless stuff.
"Unfortunatly, a lot of session goers are not really interested in the music at all. ...wanting to join in with something, anything...they simply can't be bothered with tunes."
that raises an interesting question...is that arrogance or stupidity? is it excusable in either case because of that? or is it actually a form of aggressive behaviour? [passive agressive but aggressive just the same]
And it suggests another question to my mind: what then of the tune player who simply/obivously and almost with relish does not actually play the tunes but continually 'fakes' it year after year in a session? is that becasue he/she "can't be bothered" and sees the session as some form of group thing that makes them feel wanted and comfortable and confirms their status as a human being? ie, he/she comes because of loneliness?
what of noodlers who come and noodle at sessions week after week obviously making no effort to *really* be part of the group...but expecting total acceptance by virtue of just showing up with their instrument? [I've known a few ex classical players in this regard....no slagging meant btw]
well mtodd, you only offer 2 choices at first, a bit of a leading question; A or B, I think its most likely C; because he/she "<<can't be bothered" and sees the session as some form of group thing that makes them feel wanted and comfortable and confirms their status as a human being? ie, he/she comes because of loneliness?>>
There a fellow round here who is known as the phantom fiddler, I saw him one day, sat in the session fiddling away, then I realised his hand was repeating the same motion over and over again! but no sound came out [thankfully] I guess he never rosins. Why does he do it? he takes up a seat at the centre of the session but contributes nothing. Is it some kind of self- therapy? wanting to be part of something but as you say, cant be bothered to put in the hours? very strange
But these people are not bitten by the bug of the music, they simply view it as a fashion clique. Like feckin eedgit folkies with their beards and tankards hung from carabinas.
There is a guy in glasgow that plays mandolin and another instrument (to specify which would definately identify the guy, which seems uncharitable).
he always looked so intensely serious when playing, but appeared to be going trhough a rapid sequence of chord changes/dual stopping that couldn't quite be ehard in the then busy session.
We used to joke that he was miming.
Then one day he was sitting next to my mate Cyril (a lovely retired chap that plays banjo). Cyril was sitting out a tune he didn't know when this other guys tells him:
"If you don't know the tune, just mine along and pretend to play. No-one will hear you anyway if it is a mandolin."
What makes this so funny is (a) it had been a running joke for ages that this guy was ming (but we couldn't actually believe it to be true; (b) the way the "advice" was given, - in the manner of guru speaking to the pre-iniate, the only thing missing was the actual use of the word "grasshopper"; (c) the incredible lack of humour and level of taking-self-seriouslyness possessed by the dispenser of wisdom.
Cyril was absolutely appalled.
I still find it incredibly funny. Why would anyone want to do that?
How could anyone keep a straight face while dispensing such advice?
""If you don't know the tune, just mine along and pretend to play. No-one will hear you anyway if it is a mandolin."
Chris...this is interesting...perhaps each city/session then has it's share of phantom noolders.
There is an interesting way to deal with this though: ask them to start a tune. Like, "Hey, there X, have you got a tune for us then? You start one...etc"
I have noticed that our noodler never starts a tune. Ever. And it's been years. And when X plays it's rarely close [sometimes, i'll grant X that much] it approximtes something recognizeable. I asked about with much more senior players than I and was told 'well. X has been around for years and in fact was one of the early players" etc...so de facto it seems X is granted a seat in the circle and you can't say much. X is a nice person too but spoils it for others. it seems selfish to me. No one can be that unaware...or perhaps they can and simply don't give a feck as well. I think there's a lot of that...but sublimated. But you'd think out of some pride in one's playing...if nothing else...you'd be motivated to at least improve.
Since getting an ipod-a-like thingmy last xmas I've gradually started listening to more recorded music again.
Prior to that I'd hardly listened to cds for years. I'm sure I have a tiny collection of commercial recordings compared to almost anyone else here.
I'd generally pick up the banjo or a book rather than listen to music in the house. I suppose before getting married I ahd music on in the background all the time when it wasn't interfering with e.g. reading.
Now I often listen to the mpthingmy when travelling, rather than reading.
But during the time when I was only rarely listening to recordings I still heard plenty of traditional music: at sessions, in friends houses etc. Probably 2 -3 times a week.
There is nothing wrong with commercial music. But it is entirely possible to listen to a lot of trad music without ever putting on a cd.
I didn't go to all that many concerts either. I usually prefer more informal settings.
Of course this sin't the situation described by kennedy and others above. But hardly ever listening to cds of trad msuic isn't synonymous with hardly ever listening to trad music.
Our guy would start tunes, but only ever slow airs, or rather song tunes played tremelo-style. And usually really cheesy ones at that. The punters would always go wild when he finished
The guy once confided to me that he couldn't stand all that thump thump music (this during a set of reels). I have no idea why he came to sessions, he would have enjoyed a song-circle set up much better I think.
OK, I can see the 'I want to feel like I'm part of the group' but why do that with some music you don't even like?
I can't see 'playing music I don't like to make money' when it's THIS music. I could see it with something that may actually get you gigs and make money, I do it myself. Times are tight. You want the Clancy Bros. greatest hits? Cash only, thanks.
Hmm, interesting idea SWFL.... nah I hate CR/C&W. Its not that he doesnt like trad, just doesnt listen to it. I guess he used to at some stage, like he must have learnt some tunes somehow at some stage. But he gigs in any band pretty much where he can get a seat, so hes pretty busy playing several nights a week.
The Comhaltas CDs are good for playing along to as I’m learning a tune. I’d think a guitar player would love them for just that. And they capture the sound of a nice session that’s under full steam. But they’re not the sort of thing I listen to for inspiration.
On the other hand, given the choice between listening to music and playing music, I prefer to play.
I still immerse myself in this music as I drive, on my iPod as jog, or around the home while I’m working on other chores.
Yes, it is better to keep ones ears open to the wide expanse of aural experiences out there, but there are all sorts of perspectives to take toward improving ones understanding and appreciation. Now you've directed her further she will no doubt grow in understanding and appreciation, but that doesn't mean her initial exposure was somehow a pollution, it was a start. Here's one I don't hesitate to recommend, but not as ones sole experience of this lovely and varied music ~
The Comhaltas books and CDs don't pretend to be the only answer... I know that they are sometimes used as an aid in workshops, classes and sessions of various speeds, including slow sessions in Dublin and Ennis, by our dear member known as Bannerman. He doesn't just use the books and CDs, they are just something for extra home study and support. They deal with the blood and guts in the actual session. They have their use, but I suppose, like anything recorded in dots or digitally ~ they could be abused...or misused... Hmmm, I don't like the picture that just popped into my head ~ weird. I must still be shot... Sunglasses back on this evening...
Some good points here, especially from Chris (ramblingpitchfork)
I was brought up on reel-to-reel tapes of old ceili bands (off Irish radio) and LP's of the 'Clancy Brothers' which did me no harm, and later listening to Trad bands like The Bothy, De Danann and Plantxy _ almost everything now is a sleeker, mechanical rehash of these, except for old (and some new) solo componants and genuine innovators eg. what Flook tried to do
Early on, I was compared to guitarists i hadn't heard of, let alone listened to, but did my own thing then as now (albeit band angled) and feel privelidged to have the 'source material' in my bones where it's safe and sound
Listen, players should grab what's out there now and go with it, the opportunities are so much better, and as for the rewards . . . how long is your lifeline?
Funny, I think I actually prefer the CCE recordings over the commercial stuff Kennedy posted in her links. But then I prefer sessions over concerts and gigging. Instead of listening to cds over and over, I tend to replay the music in my head, especially the music I've been lucky enough to hear or sit in on with excellent players.
Which is no doubt how the old codgers did it in their day, long before the advent of records and radio, eh? You don't need recordings if you carry the music around in your head every waking moment. And that music is much more inspiring because it comes with the whole memory of sitting with the person over pints or at a kitchen table getting to know each other.
A friend loaned us the Comhaltas cds. I think they're very useful FOR LEARNING THE TUNES.
No, I wouldn't listen to them for pleasure either, really. Just wish they'd play each tune through 3 times rather than twice.
And as for getting your tunes off band/solo artist cds, a lot of these are, in some way or other, show-off pieces, obscure or too flashy, that you wouldn't/couldn't learn or play in a session, depending on your level of competence. And you'ld have to buy a lot of cds to find just a few session-applicable tunes.
And we all know what we think of people who rip whole sets straight off some well-known bands' cds, don't we ?
I thought the Blue and Orange books which they put together in great sets called "Irish Session tunes"...it's put out by Brid Crantich and Sheila Garry and I think is among the best I've heard....what I like about them is that the tempo is VERY relaxed and/but swings ...the piano accompaniment to Garry's fiddle is excellent [unlike much piano accompaniment for ITM] and Garry plays throught the tune fairly straight the first time and second time 'round throws in lots of tasteful ornaments...she then leaves it up to you to work out your own version.
Yes, there are dots. For those who wish to use. You can buy the book to mirror the cds and that can be useful for archive purposes I guess.
One interesting thing about these cds is the are actually NICE to listen to...unlike CCE ones.
I think the CCE recordings are just fine for learning from, but it's also good to listen to some different versions as you progress through the tunes.
I also like Tradpiper's helpful and generous work: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tradlessons&view=videos
Source material (sad story)
Source material (sad story)
I was sitting next to this guitar player last night who just started playing this kind of music, and we were talking about learning tunes, and how some people try to learn them at the sessions themselves, and I asked her if she had cds she listens to at home. And she said---wait for it---that she didn’t like to listen to Irish music; she preferred to play it. Well, I sat there a while, confused at how that’s even possible…
Then I asked her what cds she’d been listening to, and she said she had the Comhaltas cd at home (the one with the dozens of session tunes). Then it made sense. I wouldn’t want to listen to that stuff either! So I wrote down a list of all the guitar players and bands I could think of for her and told her to have fun looking them up on YouTube.
Someone obviously told her to buy that Comhaltas cd. Who are these people who listen to that stuff? Why would anyone listen to dreck like that when there is so much really good music to be heard?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Source material (sad story)
Here we go again another wind up thread.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by Bernie
Re: Source material (sad story)
I agree. But, it's really hard to find a decent "study" CD. Most of the things that come with method books have a very poor quality companion CD with the tunes at a snails pace once through. Fine for learning notes but not much more.
The one exception that I've found is Shannon Heaton's Oil for the Chain. The companion CD is very listenable and enjoyable on it's own. The tunes are at a nice easy pace but not so slow you'd get bored. I've been using this with a tune class that I've been teaching since January. My hope was that they would listen more and absorb more than just the notes. I think it's working. This group has a great sense of the swing of tunes although I always have to record a slower version for them to play along with.
Any other recommendations for a study type CD?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by iampeterfonda
Re: Source material (sad story)
It's not meant to be a windup, Bernie. I was honestly very surprised that anyone's exposure to traditional music would be only live sessions and the Comhaltas cds, especially when there are so many really good artists to listen to. Actually, I think that's one of the better things about this website---the discussions here are full of great suggestions for listening material.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Source material (sad story)
steady on Kennedy, i don't listen to Irish Trad either or any other music for that matter by personal choice
and the music and musicians of Comhaltas (present and yesteryear) are proud in spirit and more than worthy custodians of this living Tradition, and (like water off a ducks back) they've brushed aside the 'dreckers' over the decades
What's happening with this Board lately? Has the heat of the summer madness come early?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Source material (sad story)
Funny, I was chatting with a backer the other day, he 'confessed' that he doesnt listen to trad, but not as a confession, ,more a boast. Sad to say, but no surprise, he's a pretty poor backer! He has a few standards and thats about it, anything out of his comfort zone and he's stumped. So what does he do? plays the wrong chords in the wrong places, or even the right chords in the wrong places. Sigh, I've tried to talk to him about this a few times but he's of the impression that backing trad is easy. So I've pretty much given up, though if we stick to a few old standards like the pinch of snuff say, he can manage them. But I find it incredibly frustrating to work with someone who has stopped progressing.
Ive never heard these 'infamous' Comhaltas CDs so I cant comment.
Peter, have you heard the new Seamus Creigh CD for learners?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Source material (sad story)
Why would you bother playing a (any) genre of music you don't listen to? I never had the inclination to do that. I like japanese folk music. I don't listen to a lot of it. I'd never try to inflict myself, by playing along with, a group of people who played it.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by shanty
Re: Source material (sad story)
Certainly looks like a windup thread, the only red rags that are missing are the dots and bodhran. Personally I can't avoid listening to this great music, it's on the radio 2 hours every night and I never miss a single show, I guess I am just lucky to have that. Come to think of it I rarely listen to any other kind of music, but I only play ITM these days.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by Bernie
Re: Source material (sad story)
As a guitar player, it is unimaginable that someone would try to back this music without listening to it to the point of immersion. I have picked up the music by listening in sessions, practicing while playing cd's, practicing with other musicians, and using this site to listen to midi files.
The midi files here are not exactly what I would call Irish music, they sound very artificial most of the time; but, they provide a guide for the tune that I can then play for practice.
I have spent a lot of time tuning my ear to the music and musical structure, so I can very my chords and strumming to go with what the melody players are doing. I have also learned and can play quite a few melodies; that has been critical in my ability to anticipate where to go with my backing.
As Bernie mentioned, ITM is the only music I am listening to these days, except for a little bluegrass and old time stuff. I listen to drive the tunes into my subconscious. I find myself moving to chords without even thinking about it.
The music plays me now, not the other way around. I don't think a backer on any instrument can appropriately play this music if they haven't spent a lot of time listening to the tunes and learning melodies.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Source material (sad story)
In Irish music, to listen is to practice.
Wish I could say I thought that one up, but I remember it from something I read somewhere...
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by leoj
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I find listening to the KitchenSession pieces a good bench mark for tunes. OK the pace it a little quick (for a beginner), but it provides some good tunes, plus there are breaks in between, that are usually pretty interesting to listen to as well...
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by Ciarán.
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Bernie, I'm talking specifically about the session cds, not the radio show. Comhaltas does a lot of good stuff too, but those session cds are just the last things I would ever recommend for a newbie to listen to, See for yourself---there's the Comhaltas version:
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/mountain_road/
And the Dervish version (with admittedly very bad sound quality, but you can still tell it's better):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AhKITsvjuY
Now which would you rather listen to---this:
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/new_copperplate/
or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnvgqxwz_VA&feature=related
I don't find those Comhaltas clips at all inspiring---and neither did the guitar player I was talking to last night; she just didn't know there is better stuff out there.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by kennedy
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One might listen to the Comhaltas CDs, or recordings of other sessions, to get a feel for what happens when different instruments play 'in unison' but not as part of an arrangment for a commercial recording.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by David50
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I crossed with you kennedy. I had a long car drive yesterday and made up a CD with various versions of tunes I am working on. It included several pairings like those, plus recordings of sessions. All grist to the mill. I sure know which environment I am likely to find myself playing in !
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by David50
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Kennedy,
I'm with you. While I own two of the 3 comhaltas cds I rarely listen to them...if ever. I gave it my best shot and at some point decided that they were rushed and garbled at best. No slag on the players. They're obviously competent. I also have issues with the harp player, who's obviouosly good, but always behind the others...all in all a bad sonic experience.
There are also other better recorded places to learn tunes as you suggest aside from commercial realeases.
Some fiddle tutors I think are decent: Cathal Hayden's cd rom, Matt Crantich, Kevin Burke..tutor tape can't speak for his dvd/vhs cd/tapes.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
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Yes, that harp. I wonder sometimes if its something traditional that I don't yet have the experience to appreciate.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by David50
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That's funny, I listened to those clips and found them very well done, but a trifle slow. They are probably taking it easy because they are playing for learners.
Its simply not fair to compare Dervish, to the Session cds. They are different things . One is a professional band, one is a bunch of folk sitting down in a session and playing a few tunes nice and aesy for learners. How can you compare them?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
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Ionannas, that's exactly my point, you've nailed it. It's a cd for learners that sounds dull and uninspiring. And *boring*. What's the point in that? Shouldn't learners be listening to the very best in the genre? Follow the very best example?
I don't get this whole concept of learners' cds. Every cd is a learner's cd. You listen to it, you learn. Right?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by kennedy
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Yes Ionannas exactly. No use trying to learn a tune by listening to professional bands like those they have their own arrangements and if anything play too fast. Professionals make cds to earn money. The sessions cds are made for the purpose of learning and played at a steady pace and are therefore much better.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by Bernie
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Ionannas, in fact, many of the tunes on the Comhaltas cds are played *too fast* for anyone's comfort let along 'beginners'....not all, but many.
Dervish? hmmm. maybe
Now Mary MacNamara, Pat O'Connor, Kittty Hayes and the like or The Raineys or the many other worthies from times past like Padraig O'K, Julia Clifford and her brother etc etc etc...that's where I'd go.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
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I was going to send in a reply, but Ionannas saved me the bother of typing most of it out.
I've only listened to bits and pieces of the comhaltas recordings, but they struck me as honest recordings of a fairly large collection of people trying to play clearly and at a leisurely but acceptable pace for learning.
Pretty well suited for the purposes for which it was produced.
Yes I enjoyed the Dervish clip more. But trad music isn't primarily about professional bands. If people only ever listened to the slick arrangements found on most modern commercial recodings by bands then I think they would miss out on what traditional music is really about. Mind I'm not saying they should sit down and listen to the three CCE cds all the way through instead.
To be honest if a beginer, or anyone really, wants to be inspired then I think they would be better off looking for clips of players on either youtube or the Comhaltas website.
Youtube has some fantastic stuff, but also a lot of really poor stuff. I think everything I've watched on the comhaltas site has been well worth the visit, particualry as most of the clips are of single players or small groups of folks playing the tunes rather than some overly studiofied and studied arrangement on a commercial cd.
(Although now that I think of it, I've mostly only gone to the CCE site to look up clips recommended on boards such as this, so to be fair maybe I've only seen the best clips. But what I have seen is good).
- chris
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Source material (sad story)
>I don't get this whole concept of learners' cds. Every cd is a >learner's cd. You listen to it, you learn. Right?
).
Not sure I entirely agree with this.
Yes you can learn off any CD, but what will you be learning?
You will be learning the tunes. But perhpas you will also be learning the latest commercial gimmick or hook designed to improve the cross over appeal and therefore cd sales of the band.
No problem with bands doing this, they're trying to make a living. But how to separate out a passing fashion from something more universal? (My own pet hate, trendy syncopated arrangements reproduced in sessions, yuk
Paring down the arrangements is better for learning. Ok on the CCE cds you have many instruments going at once to there is some flattening out of the tunes as well, but good fro picking up the basic tune.
Listen to a solo player or small group playing in the style of the videos on the cce site (and yes on many, but by no means all cds) is of course best.
In my opinion anyway, the value of which I make no extravengant claims for.
- chris
- chris
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Source material (sad story)
That CD,IMO is made so, once you have the tunes in basic form you can pump up the volume and be a part of a virtual session.
I could have deleted that but WTF those are my thoughts.
questions questions!
I listen to say, Bobby Casey, John Vesey,John Doherty. But Its for listening, I listen for enjoyment as I marvel at their music, I listen to see what the masters do with the same framework of a tune, not to play along with. Living in Co Clare I have sessions to sit in any time I chose. Besides I dont play ITM to sit in sessions, though of course I do sometimes. I play because I love it, the tunes the limitless potential for improvement, the challenge, the fun.
I disagree kennedy about the CD being uninspiring, boring[well the 2 tunes I just heard!] etc Thats what sessions are in a way, a common denominator, something that is achievable and real, a practical aspiration for a majority of players.
What inspires you? what do you hope to achieve? what do you want from music? what are you comparing them to? what are you used to listening to? What are your cultural underpinnings? Where do you come from and where do you want to go? Are your aspirations unrealistic? so many questions, but IMO thinking about these things will help you understand yourself better, and once that is achieved things can get a lot easier and clearer for you .
OK Ive moved beyond the source material.
Back to the source; IMO any group effort is a compromise. Only by listening to unaccompanied masters of the genre will you be able to form a clear understanding of what ITM is about at heart. Sure groups are fun and can be totally amazing but at heart a group is comprised of individuals, sometimes the group gestalt can lift a bunch of so so musicians up to another level and vice versa.
What do you play trad for? is there a why at all? for me its just something Ive pretty much always done, Ive always wanted to play since i was a wee kid of about 4 I knew what I wanted to do. Literally, sat at my grandmothers piano, I knew. It took me a few years to convince my parents but at 9 I got my first guitar and I haven't looked back since .
What is music for you? a hobby, your vocation?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
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If the tunes themselves are not inspiring why bother ?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by David50
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One of the hardest things to learn in this music, is what not to learn. And you ain't never gonna learn what not to learn until you've already learned it.
When you are young, or new to it, you learn everything. It's only hindsight that can tell you what you shouldn't have learned.
Sure, a good teacher can tell you what not to learn, but you will never really understand why until you've gone through the process of learning and discarding.
So I don't see a problem with it. It's all part of learning.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ...
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Holy thread creep Batman!
The real issue seems to be, why anyone would want to play the music if they don't want to listen to it?
Being stuck on one CD without motivation to go and seek out anything else is a little odd. To me, if you love the music and want to play it, you'd be motivated to listen to as much of as it as you could, and go seek it out yourself.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
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Unfortunatly, a lot of session goers are not really interested in the music at all. They see it as an irritating side issue that gets in the way of just wanting to join in with something, anything. That's why you get so many people playing instruments that can't play tunes, they simply can't be bothered with tunes.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ...
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Im sad to say I have to agree with you llig! , not sad because I agree,
but sad because of the situation.
But its not only this type who play percussion instruments remember, dont tar all bodhran players with the same brush!
SWFL, to answer your question, in that particular case its for the money [and the fun.] If there were no cash he probably wouldn't bother. In fact I know he wouldn't. He has a family to feed and he has to earn a living as his main priority.[ within the lifestyle he has chosen].
Ahh mtodd, I have to say that those CD's are not fast by any means. They reflect a ' relaxed approach to the music. One I am in favour of actually to a certain degree, but fast ? not at all I can assure you that You will find here in Ireland sessions that fairly blast along, all in perfect form, Recordings of older solo musicians are often done at a comfortable relaxed pace, to explore the subtleties and depth that they bring to the table. But the younger players who are free and a bit wild, for fun, after a few bevies can let rip! Thats where my heart lies to be honest
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
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Aye, I agree with you all as well. I have met a fair few musicians at sessions who profess to never listen to folk music. I find this sad, as I believe (as you guys apparently do) that to really understand and be empathetic to the tunes, you have to listen to loads of it. One time I had a conversation with a fella who was like, "I never listen to folk music. I don't like it." I asked why he played then. "Oh," he said. "It's really easy. So might as well."
Um, ok.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
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Llig, the problem is that this guitar player thought she didn't like listening to traditional music because she had listened to her Comhaltas cd and didn't like that---and thought that's what it was supposed to sound like---she was new to the genre and didn't know that there are many other recordings that are much much better. Don't you think that's sad? I think it's a great shame that someone recommended it to her as a place to start learning about the music. It's dull, listless stuff.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by kennedy
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"Unfortunatly, a lot of session goers are not really interested in the music at all. ...wanting to join in with something, anything...they simply can't be bothered with tunes."
that raises an interesting question...is that arrogance or stupidity? is it excusable in either case because of that? or is it actually a form of aggressive behaviour? [passive agressive but aggressive just the same]
And it suggests another question to my mind: what then of the tune player who simply/obivously and almost with relish does not actually play the tunes but continually 'fakes' it year after year in a session? is that becasue he/she "can't be bothered" and sees the session as some form of group thing that makes them feel wanted and comfortable and confirms their status as a human being? ie, he/she comes because of loneliness?
what of noodlers who come and noodle at sessions week after week obviously making no effort to *really* be part of the group...but expecting total acceptance by virtue of just showing up with their instrument? [I've known a few ex classical players in this regard....no slagging meant btw]
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
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I dunno, Kennedy. If people are really bitten hard by the bug, they will seek out the music.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
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well mtodd, you only offer 2 choices at first, a bit of a leading question; A or B, I think its most likely C; because he/she "<<can't be bothered" and sees the session as some form of group thing that makes them feel wanted and comfortable and confirms their status as a human being? ie, he/she comes because of loneliness?>>
There a fellow round here who is known as the phantom fiddler, I saw him one day, sat in the session fiddling away, then I realised his hand was repeating the same motion over and over again! but no sound came out [thankfully] I guess he never rosins. Why does he do it? he takes up a seat at the centre of the session but contributes nothing. Is it some kind of self- therapy? wanting to be part of something but as you say, cant be bothered to put in the hours? very strange
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
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But these people are not bitten by the bug of the music, they simply view it as a fashion clique. Like feckin eedgit folkies with their beards and tankards hung from carabinas.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Source material (sad story)
There is a guy in glasgow that plays mandolin and another instrument (to specify which would definately identify the guy, which seems uncharitable).
he always looked so intensely serious when playing, but appeared to be going trhough a rapid sequence of chord changes/dual stopping that couldn't quite be ehard in the then busy session.
We used to joke that he was miming.
Then one day he was sitting next to my mate Cyril (a lovely retired chap that plays banjo). Cyril was sitting out a tune he didn't know when this other guys tells him:
"If you don't know the tune, just mine along and pretend to play. No-one will hear you anyway if it is a mandolin."
What makes this so funny is (a) it had been a running joke for ages that this guy was ming (but we couldn't actually believe it to be true; (b) the way the "advice" was given, - in the manner of guru speaking to the pre-iniate, the only thing missing was the actual use of the word "grasshopper"; (c) the incredible lack of humour and level of taking-self-seriouslyness possessed by the dispenser of wisdom.
Cyril was absolutely appalled.
I still find it incredibly funny. Why would anyone want to do that?
How could anyone keep a straight face while dispensing such advice?
- chris
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
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LOL...there's a big "carabiner contingent" on campus here!
I'm waiting for negative Earth shoes to come back soon.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
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was "miming". not was "ming".
he didn't actually have bootlace mustaches
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
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""If you don't know the tune, just mine along and pretend to play. No-one will hear you anyway if it is a mandolin."
Chris...this is interesting...perhaps each city/session then has it's share of phantom noolders.
There is an interesting way to deal with this though: ask them to start a tune. Like, "Hey, there X, have you got a tune for us then? You start one...etc"
I have noticed that our noodler never starts a tune. Ever. And it's been years. And when X plays it's rarely close [sometimes, i'll grant X that much] it approximtes something recognizeable. I asked about with much more senior players than I and was told 'well. X has been around for years and in fact was one of the early players" etc...so de facto it seems X is granted a seat in the circle and you can't say much. X is a nice person too but spoils it for others. it seems selfish to me. No one can be that unaware...or perhaps they can and simply don't give a feck as well. I think there's a lot of that...but sublimated. But you'd think out of some pride in one's playing...if nothing else...you'd be motivated to at least improve.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
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Since getting an ipod-a-like thingmy last xmas I've gradually started listening to more recorded music again.
Prior to that I'd hardly listened to cds for years. I'm sure I have a tiny collection of commercial recordings compared to almost anyone else here.
I'd generally pick up the banjo or a book rather than listen to music in the house. I suppose before getting married I ahd music on in the background all the time when it wasn't interfering with e.g. reading.
Now I often listen to the mpthingmy when travelling, rather than reading.
But during the time when I was only rarely listening to recordings I still heard plenty of traditional music: at sessions, in friends houses etc. Probably 2 -3 times a week.
There is nothing wrong with commercial music. But it is entirely possible to listen to a lot of trad music without ever putting on a cd.
I didn't go to all that many concerts either. I usually prefer more informal settings.
Of course this sin't the situation described by kennedy and others above. But hardly ever listening to cds of trad msuic isn't synonymous with hardly ever listening to trad music.
I'm pointing this out as a side-issue
- chris
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Source material (sad story)
Our guy would start tunes, but only ever slow airs, or rather song tunes played tremelo-style. And usually really cheesy ones at that. The punters would always go wild when he finished
The guy once confided to me that he couldn't stand all that thump thump music (this during a set of reels). I have no idea why he came to sessions, he would have enjoyed a song-circle set up much better I think.
- chris
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
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You guys are full of sad stories! Yikes.
OK, I can see the 'I want to feel like I'm part of the group' but why do that with some music you don't even like?
I can't see 'playing music I don't like to make money' when it's THIS music. I could see it with something that may actually get you gigs and make money, I do it myself. Times are tight. You want the Clancy Bros. greatest hits? Cash only, thanks.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
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Of course, that's Florida. Your results may vary.
...but if I really wanted to make some money I'd go start a classic rock & country cover band and book gigs in bars all over town.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
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...but then I'd be faking music I didn't like to make money, so back to square one, I suppose.
I'm going in circles, need more coffee. Carry on. Ignore the crazy fiddler in the corner.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
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Hmm, interesting idea SWFL.... nah I hate CR/C&W. Its not that he doesnt like trad, just doesnt listen to it. I guess he used to at some stage, like he must have learnt some tunes somehow at some stage. But he gigs in any band pretty much where he can get a seat, so hes pretty busy playing several nights a week.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Source material (sad story)
The Comhaltas CDs are good for playing along to as I’m learning a tune. I’d think a guitar player would love them for just that. And they capture the sound of a nice session that’s under full steam. But they’re not the sort of thing I listen to for inspiration.
On the other hand, given the choice between listening to music and playing music, I prefer to play.
I still immerse myself in this music as I drive, on my iPod as jog, or around the home while I’m working on other chores.
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by fidkid
Re: Source material (sad story)
Yes, it is better to keep ones ears open to the wide expanse of aural experiences out there, but there are all sorts of perspectives to take toward improving ones understanding and appreciation. Now you've directed her further she will no doubt grow in understanding and appreciation, but that doesn't mean her initial exposure was somehow a pollution, it was a start. Here's one I don't hesitate to recommend, but not as ones sole experience of this lovely and varied music ~
"Seamus Creagh: Tunes For Practice"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/3225
The Comhaltas books and CDs don't pretend to be the only answer... I know that they are sometimes used as an aid in workshops, classes and sessions of various speeds, including slow sessions in Dublin and Ennis, by our dear member known as Bannerman. He doesn't just use the books and CDs, they are just something for extra home study and support. They deal with the blood and guts in the actual session. They have their use, but I suppose, like anything recorded in dots or digitally ~ they could be abused...or misused... Hmmm, I don't like the picture that just popped into my head ~ weird. I must still be shot... Sunglasses back on this evening...
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Source material (sad story)
Some good points here, especially from Chris (ramblingpitchfork)
I was brought up on reel-to-reel tapes of old ceili bands (off Irish radio) and LP's of the 'Clancy Brothers' which did me no harm, and later listening to Trad bands like The Bothy, De Danann and Plantxy _ almost everything now is a sleeker, mechanical rehash of these, except for old (and some new) solo componants and genuine innovators eg. what Flook tried to do
Early on, I was compared to guitarists i hadn't heard of, let alone listened to, but did my own thing then as now (albeit band angled) and feel privelidged to have the 'source material' in my bones where it's safe and sound
Listen, players should grab what's out there now and go with it, the opportunities are so much better, and as for the rewards . . . how long is your lifeline?
# Posted on April 22nd 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Source material (sad story)
Funny, I think I actually prefer the CCE recordings over the commercial stuff Kennedy posted in her links. But then I prefer sessions over concerts and gigging. Instead of listening to cds over and over, I tend to replay the music in my head, especially the music I've been lucky enough to hear or sit in on with excellent players.
Which is no doubt how the old codgers did it in their day, long before the advent of records and radio, eh? You don't need recordings if you carry the music around in your head every waking moment. And that music is much more inspiring because it comes with the whole memory of sitting with the person over pints or at a kitchen table getting to know each other.
# Posted on April 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Source material (sad story)
A friend loaned us the Comhaltas cds. I think they're very useful FOR LEARNING THE TUNES.
No, I wouldn't listen to them for pleasure either, really. Just wish they'd play each tune through 3 times rather than twice.
And as for getting your tunes off band/solo artist cds, a lot of these are, in some way or other, show-off pieces, obscure or too flashy, that you wouldn't/couldn't learn or play in a session, depending on your level of competence. And you'ld have to buy a lot of cds to find just a few session-applicable tunes.
And we all know what we think of people who rip whole sets straight off some well-known bands' cds, don't we ?
# Posted on April 23rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Source material (sad story)
To add to the fray:
I thought the Blue and Orange books which they put together in great sets called "Irish Session tunes"...it's put out by Brid Crantich and Sheila Garry and I think is among the best I've heard....what I like about them is that the tempo is VERY relaxed and/but swings ...the piano accompaniment to Garry's fiddle is excellent [unlike much piano accompaniment for ITM] and Garry plays throught the tune fairly straight the first time and second time 'round throws in lots of tasteful ornaments...she then leaves it up to you to work out your own version.
Yes, there are dots. For those who wish to use. You can buy the book to mirror the cds and that can be useful for archive purposes I guess.
One interesting thing about these cds is the are actually NICE to listen to...unlike CCE ones.
# Posted on April 23rd 2009 by skin&bow
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I think the CCE recordings are just fine for learning from, but it's also good to listen to some different versions as you progress through the tunes.
I also like Tradpiper's helpful and generous work:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tradlessons&view=videos
# Posted on April 23rd 2009 by oldstrings