I was reading a discussion today that brought me back to a small session I was invited to last week. Three ladies (quite elderly in fact) were having the time of their lives cranking out song after song on fiddles and autoharp, playing harmony when needed and melody when not. Their expertise was wonderful. I was happily hammering away (I play a rather large hammered dulcimer) to those songs I knew or chording when I didn't. Funny thing was when I suggested songs the ladies looked at me blankly then asked if I had the sheet music. I was surprised that only the autoharp lady had the ability to chord and only when I called out the chords needed for rather simple songs, Em and D modal stuff. Try separating your brain enough to play and call out chord progressions! My question is, how dependent are you on sheet music? Most of what I see is music that isn't arranged, much like the fiddler's fake book. The notes are there to catch the tune, the arrangements are yours to experiment with. It was curious these experienced fiddlers didn't have the interest in picking the tune out of the air. What are your thoughts?
I think sheetmusic for me is a wonderful mens of communicating with my music playing friends, and has nothing to do with music! Come to think of it music doesn't exist unless you (somebody) can hear it. When I encounter a communication of music in sheet(s) it can under certain positive sircumstances (which I expierence very often!) make me turnit into music. Of course I have to add something and remove somthing from the sheet, and I have to use my "feeling" for the kind of music it is.
Actually I was just litening to Eileen Ivers "So Far", and at the same time looking at the musicalnotes here on thesession and in a little while I wil play the same on my fiddle trying to make it sond the same...right ...yes got it?
I agree that sheet music is a wonderful mens of communicating.
How do women do it?
.... sircumstances .... experierence.... turnit ... somthing.... litening.... musicalnotes.... sond
Now we know.
I think a test for the musical value of sheet music is : get one of your ITM books, open it up randomly, pick 3 tunes you never heard of at all, not even the names, then learn them, solely from the dots. Ignore any printed ornamentation, but use your own.
I've done this a few times, and am thoroughly pleased with the results, which usually is 1 tune which I can "call" my own.
The value of sheet music for communicating tunes is great - I think this goes without saying.
I play with a local reel and strathspey society (East Lothian Fiddlers). Please don't squirm. It gives me a chance to play for an audience without me getting too nervous.
We play off sheet music all the time-I suppose we'd all be playing different variations if not. However, once I know the tune, I don't need to look at the music any more but I notice that the majority of the members there still need the music as a crutch. Some of them have been doing this for a long time and are much better sight readers than myself. Yet take their music away and they're lost.
Although I can read sheet music , I am subconsciously learning by ear at the same time i.e listening to my own playing and that of the others. Also, when playing in different situations, I add my own variations, ornamentations and style to some of these tunes. Believe it or not, there are a few good ones which crop up from time to time.
To conclude, I'm glad that I can play both by ear and from the music but just wish I could do both even better.
I must say, folk like fiel and all our other members who post in English when it's not their first language impress the heck out of me. I'm sure I'd make a complete hash out of posting in German or Danish or Russian or Japanese or any of the other first languages of some of our more far-flung (to me, anyway) members. Fair play to you, guys!
I think that sheet music is a wonderful way of preserving the basic outline of the tunes. But, as people were discussing ad nauseum in the traditional music becoming progressive discussion room, it cannot be the be all end all. I have been playing fiddle since I was 14, and recently began meeting up with my Aunt Peg on Sundays to play with her. She has been playing for three years. And nothing frustrates her more than when I really deviate from the written ornamentation or make an eighth and 2 sixteenths into a triplet. I think that people can fall into the trap of that's what's written, that's how it should be played.
Take for example, the pieces posted here on the session. Ornamentation is included, but does the poster truly expect the people who print it off to use exactly the same rolls and trills? Of course not. They are there as a guide, to teach you the possibilities of the tune, not become the only way to do it.
And learning by ear is a skill not often encouraged anymore. I have a hell of a time with my aunt because I can sight read and pick up by ear fairly well, and her own frustration is inhibiting. Please don't get me wrong...I don't showboat, but it only reinforces that you need to be around it often to do it well, and the difference in how often we practice and get together with other people to jam makes an obvious change in how much we need the music.
It isn't just in traditional music that the dots get in the way. If any of you have explored actual Baroque transicriptions ... true enlighenment. They laid out either the harpsichord melody or the cello line - that's it. The rest is up to the interpretation of the player. So ... how do you get to that point? Rachel Barton said practice and listen to what others have done ... then shut the music and do what feels right. If this is not the slavish adherance to tradition - who actually labels the tradition? Every regional variation or alteration may be due to a physical problem with the musician or the period in the persons life when it was recorded (listen to two or three of Paddy Canny's recordings over his forty year career). Interpretations change, moods change and physical possibilities can degenerate ... it's a fact of life and it makes the music so much more personal, than just simply dots.
The dot's keep a record - it's up to the player to interpret.
If you go to the originals (the "Urtext" as it's called in the trade) of, let's say, the Bach violin partitas or cello suites, you'll see precious little in the form of dynamics, accents, phrasing, or ornaments, and certainly not bowing. Look at any modern edition of these works and you'll a large variety of dynamics, bowings, phrasings, etc, often mutually inconsistent between editions. A musician who is serious about performing these works would do well to work from the Urtext and do a lot of background study of the style of the period. A lot of work is involved, but it pays dividends in the long run.
In the Baroque period it was indeed up to the performer - but doubtless there were generally accepted ways of doing things which are difficult to determine today. Don't forget that pencils in those days were a rarity, or hadn't even been invented, so the modern system of marking up a player's performing part with pencilled instructions was virtually unknown. It was a case of verbal instruction, memory, and the current local tradition.
Contrast the baroque and Irish music approach with that of many modern composers who put in so much detail that the performer is virtually an automaton, and heaven help said performer if he/she has such a composer conducting. I know - I've been on the receiving end. My theory, for what it's worth, is that these composers do most of their work at a synthesiser keyboard or a computer, and go overboard taking advantage of the facilities available. Bring back the pen, ink and paper, I say!
Amen, Amen Trevor Hard to fathom that the universal language now has to be universally unanimous isn't it? Especially when the creative mojo of the performance you give may inspire things others would never have otherwise considered...
One of the many reasons I love Harry Connick Junior. Not ITM I know, but man if you get to see him live, one word....GO. He is incredible at improvisation, especially now that his fanbase has let him loosen up and expand his act to include funk as well as jazz.
Viva la difference e carpe diem---drink a beer, relax and have fun with the blinking tunes people
I NEED the sheet music, sometimes only for an hour! or so. Just because I can see how it looks, like reading a poem maybe. I can get the cadence, but then I have to listen and until I can sin or hum it, it ain't there unless someone else starts it up.
I also need to be able to visualise the first note or so as notes on the stave. Once learnt, though, I can then make it more 'my own'. But it takes me ages before I have the courage to play it out.
sheet music and memory
sheet music and memory
I was reading a discussion today that brought me back to a small session I was invited to last week. Three ladies (quite elderly in fact) were having the time of their lives cranking out song after song on fiddles and autoharp, playing harmony when needed and melody when not. Their expertise was wonderful. I was happily hammering away (I play a rather large hammered dulcimer) to those songs I knew or chording when I didn't. Funny thing was when I suggested songs the ladies looked at me blankly then asked if I had the sheet music. I was surprised that only the autoharp lady had the ability to chord and only when I called out the chords needed for rather simple songs, Em and D modal stuff. Try separating your brain enough to play and call out chord progressions! My question is, how dependent are you on sheet music? Most of what I see is music that isn't arranged, much like the fiddler's fake book. The notes are there to catch the tune, the arrangements are yours to experiment with. It was curious these experienced fiddlers didn't have the interest in picking the tune out of the air. What are your thoughts?
# Posted on September 14th 2003 by jrathbun
Re: sheet music and memory
I think sheetmusic for me is a wonderful mens of communicating with my music playing friends, and has nothing to do with music! Come to think of it music doesn't exist unless you (somebody) can hear it. When I encounter a communication of music in sheet(s) it can under certain positive sircumstances (which I expierence very often!) make me turnit into music. Of course I have to add something and remove somthing from the sheet, and I have to use my "feeling" for the kind of music it is.
Actually I was just litening to Eileen Ivers "So Far", and at the same time looking at the musicalnotes here on thesession and in a little while I wil play the same on my fiddle trying to make it sond the same...right ...yes got it?
# Posted on September 14th 2003 by fiel
Re: sheet music and memory
I agree that sheet music is a wonderful mens of communicating.
How do women do it?
.... sircumstances .... experierence.... turnit ... somthing.... litening.... musicalnotes.... sond
Now we know.
# Posted on September 14th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: sheet music and memory
I think a test for the musical value of sheet music is : get one of your ITM books, open it up randomly, pick 3 tunes you never heard of at all, not even the names, then learn them, solely from the dots. Ignore any printed ornamentation, but use your own.
I've done this a few times, and am thoroughly pleased with the results, which usually is 1 tune which I can "call" my own.
The value of sheet music for communicating tunes is great - I think this goes without saying.
Jim
# Posted on September 14th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: sheet music and memory
Don't sin! geoffwright, do the "bier-keller" act!
# Posted on September 14th 2003 by fiel
Re: sheet music and memory
I play with a local reel and strathspey society (East Lothian Fiddlers). Please don't squirm. It gives me a chance to play for an audience without me getting too nervous.
We play off sheet music all the time-I suppose we'd all be playing different variations if not. However, once I know the tune, I don't need to look at the music any more but I notice that the majority of the members there still need the music as a crutch. Some of them have been doing this for a long time and are much better sight readers than myself. Yet take their music away and they're lost.
Although I can read sheet music , I am subconsciously learning by ear at the same time i.e listening to my own playing and that of the others. Also, when playing in different situations, I add my own variations, ornamentations and style to some of these tunes. Believe it or not, there are a few good ones which crop up from time to time.
To conclude, I'm glad that I can play both by ear and from the music but just wish I could do both even better.
John
# Posted on September 14th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Off the topic
I must say, folk like fiel and all our other members who post in English when it's not their first language impress the heck out of me. I'm sure I'd make a complete hash out of posting in German or Danish or Russian or Japanese or any of the other first languages of some of our more far-flung (to me, anyway) members. Fair play to you, guys!
Zina
# Posted on September 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: sheet music and memory
I think that sheet music is a wonderful way of preserving the basic outline of the tunes. But, as people were discussing ad nauseum in the traditional music becoming progressive discussion room, it cannot be the be all end all. I have been playing fiddle since I was 14, and recently began meeting up with my Aunt Peg on Sundays to play with her. She has been playing for three years. And nothing frustrates her more than when I really deviate from the written ornamentation or make an eighth and 2 sixteenths into a triplet. I think that people can fall into the trap of that's what's written, that's how it should be played.
Take for example, the pieces posted here on the session. Ornamentation is included, but does the poster truly expect the people who print it off to use exactly the same rolls and trills? Of course not. They are there as a guide, to teach you the possibilities of the tune, not become the only way to do it.
And learning by ear is a skill not often encouraged anymore. I have a hell of a time with my aunt because I can sight read and pick up by ear fairly well, and her own frustration is inhibiting. Please don't get me wrong...I don't showboat, but it only reinforces that you need to be around it often to do it well, and the difference in how often we practice and get together with other people to jam makes an obvious change in how much we need the music.
# Posted on September 15th 2003 by lovelylydia
Re: sheet music and memory
It isn't just in traditional music that the dots get in the way. If any of you have explored actual Baroque transicriptions ... true enlighenment. They laid out either the harpsichord melody or the cello line - that's it. The rest is up to the interpretation of the player. So ... how do you get to that point? Rachel Barton said practice and listen to what others have done ... then shut the music and do what feels right. If this is not the slavish adherance to tradition - who actually labels the tradition? Every regional variation or alteration may be due to a physical problem with the musician or the period in the persons life when it was recorded (listen to two or three of Paddy Canny's recordings over his forty year career). Interpretations change, moods change and physical possibilities can degenerate ... it's a fact of life and it makes the music so much more personal, than just simply dots.
The dot's keep a record - it's up to the player to interpret.
# Posted on September 16th 2003 by 2situla
Re: sheet music and memory
If you go to the originals (the "Urtext" as it's called in the trade) of, let's say, the Bach violin partitas or cello suites, you'll see precious little in the form of dynamics, accents, phrasing, or ornaments, and certainly not bowing. Look at any modern edition of these works and you'll a large variety of dynamics, bowings, phrasings, etc, often mutually inconsistent between editions. A musician who is serious about performing these works would do well to work from the Urtext and do a lot of background study of the style of the period. A lot of work is involved, but it pays dividends in the long run.
In the Baroque period it was indeed up to the performer - but doubtless there were generally accepted ways of doing things which are difficult to determine today. Don't forget that pencils in those days were a rarity, or hadn't even been invented, so the modern system of marking up a player's performing part with pencilled instructions was virtually unknown. It was a case of verbal instruction, memory, and the current local tradition.
Contrast the baroque and Irish music approach with that of many modern composers who put in so much detail that the performer is virtually an automaton, and heaven help said performer if he/she has such a composer conducting. I know - I've been on the receiving end. My theory, for what it's worth, is that these composers do most of their work at a synthesiser keyboard or a computer, and go overboard taking advantage of the facilities available. Bring back the pen, ink and paper, I say!
Trevor
# Posted on September 16th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Pen Ink and Parchment
Amen, Amen Trevor
Hard to fathom that the universal language now has to be universally unanimous isn't it? Especially when the creative mojo of the performance you give may inspire things others would never have otherwise considered...
One of the many reasons I love Harry Connick Junior. Not ITM I know, but man if you get to see him live, one word....GO. He is incredible at improvisation, especially now that his fanbase has let him loosen up and expand his act to include funk as well as jazz.
Viva la difference e carpe diem---drink a beer, relax and have fun with the blinking tunes people
# Posted on September 17th 2003 by lovelylydia
Re: sheet music and memory
I NEED the sheet music, sometimes only for an hour! or so. Just because I can see how it looks, like reading a poem maybe. I can get the cadence, but then I have to listen and until I can sin or hum it, it ain't there unless someone else starts it up.
I also need to be able to visualise the first note or so as notes on the stave. Once learnt, though, I can then make it more 'my own'. But it takes me ages before I have the courage to play it out.
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Fiiddle R