I am looking to buy a second-hand fiddle and I am hoping you could give me some pointers.
I am currently playing a low-end student violin which is on loan from a friend. I have been taking lessons for about a year now with this instrument and I feel that it is time that I *own* a half decent one. There are several adds in the local classifieds for second-hand fiddles from private sellers, however, I am very inexperienced when it comes to buying instruments. I was hoping that I could get advice on how to know if the instrument is what I'm looking for - How to recognize tone quality, how to know if the instrument is "set up" properly, how to know when I'm being ripped off, etc.
I seached earlier discussions and found a helpful thread. However, I'm sure that there is more to take into consideration and I would like to hear your opinons and personal experiences.
Ideally you'd want to buy from someone who would either let you take it home and try it for a day or two, or who'd be willing to hold your check and give you a few days to bring it back if you end up not liking it. If you can't take it home, then try to bring someone with you who plays so you can at least get a second opinion. It's a tough way to find an instrument since it's statistically unlikely that the one fiddle advertised is going to suit you - I think you're much better off either finding someone who sells a lot of instruments out of their house or buying from a violin shop (Shar Music will mail you fiddles to try out if you're in the US)
Wow, but you're in Nova Scotia - there are probably amazing fiddles to be found there. I heard Jerry Holland's fiddle came from a laundromat - his father saw it hanging in the window and bought it on the spot. In your case, if it's comfortable, you like the sound, and the price feels good, then get it!
Really there is little I can offer in advice apart from this. Whatever you get, get it set up for you at a luthiers. . Get good strings and get a good bow. The best I can suggest is asking a knowledgeable friend to help or buy from a reputable luthier. Its going to be pot luck IMO what you end up with unless you can get help..
My advice would be; dont spend too much , just get a cheapish fiddle, and spend any money left over on a good bow , strings and set up.
Among many other things, you want it to ring---the sound should continue even when your bow leaves the string. Fiddles that don't ring are "closed" and sound like they have a cold.
Check for cracks, open seams, pegs that don't turn easily, pegs stuck too far into the peg box---generally you want the thing to be in good shape.
Check for evenness across the strings---lots of fiddles sound great in the lower register or the higher one, but not so many on all of them.
Also go shopping in some proper violin shops to get an idea of what's out there and what the market is---it will help you know the value of what you're looking at. And get a good player to go shopping with you if at all possible.
On second thought, instead of taking a violin player shopping with you, find a carpenter or someone who knows their wood. They'll notice all the things Kennedy mentioned, and they'd probably figure out fairly quickly which stuff the best violins are made of...
My advice would be to avoid buying privately - most fiddlers seriously over-value their own instruments (particularly if the label says 'Stradivarius' )
The secondhand fiddle market is an absolute minefield, If you are going to spend serious money on an instrument you really HAVE to find someone who knows what they are doing to help you. (And that means someone who knows about buying fiddles, not just a good player.) If you take a $300 fiddle and a $10,000 one and stand them next to each other, most people won't be able to tell which is which.
If you really can't get help, go to the forums at maestronet.com and spend a LOT of time reading the 'Auction Scroll' section - there is a lot of advice from professional dealers about identifying and valuing fiddles. And start watching instruments on Ebay to get a feel for prices - but don't buy anything there unless you are a hardened gambler!
Structure (Stuff that a luthier may or may not be able to fix):
==========
* Check for any open seams between the top plate, backplate and ribs.
* Check for cracks in all surfaces.
* Does the glue look neat? Has it split and someone fixed it with super-glue?
* Check the neck angle. The fingerboard should taper upwards towards the bridge, not lie flat across the belly.
* Is the black paint coming off the fingerboard in any spots? A good fiddle will have an ebony fingerboard i.e. black all the way through.
* Inspect the pegbox for cracks leading from the peg holes. Pegs can be replaced - pegbox, not so much. Cracks in the pegbox should be a dealbreaker for you.
* Have a look at the purfling. Does it look neat all the way around? Is the mitre joint in the purfling at the bee sting (the points of the waist) neat? This is one of the hardest bits for the maker, so it'll give you an idea of the maker's skill.
* Have a look at the f holes. Are they neat? Any cracks, roughness around the edges? Sometimes people mess with the soundpost and damage the f holes in the process.
Setup (stuff that can easily be fixed by a luthier):
======
* The bridge should be lined up with the notches on the f holes, give or take a millimeter or 2.
* Look in through the f hole on the treble side and spot the soundpost. It should be just behind the treble foot of the bridge, and fairly central to the bridge foot. I've seen fiddles where the soundpost was directly under the bridge foot, resulting in a dull, dead sound.
* Any bits of string tied to the soundpost? This is a tell-tale sign of an amateur messing with the soundpost position.
* Is the bridge standing vertically on the belly? Judge it from the back side (facing the tailpiece), as the front should be tapered towards the back.
*You also want to see some signs of carving or shaping at the waist of the bridge. The bottom of the bridge between the 2 feet should also have been shaped, and not just straight across like a blank.
* Are there any gaps between the bridge feet and the belly? The feet should be completely flush with the belly.
* Are the string notches in the nut neat and evenly spaced?
* Are the pegs pretty snug? You should be able to move them, but they should not move by themselves.
* What type of strings are fitted? If you always use steel strings, you don't want to be judging a fiddle fitted with gut strings. Don't dismiss the fiddle based on this, but it's harder to compare it to your own fiddle.
Sound (the really important bit):
======
* No matter how good it looks, it has to sound good to you. If this is gonna be your fiddle, you have to like it.
* It can be tricky to judge the sound of a strange instrument, especially if you're inexperienced. Pick a couple of tunes that you know well. Choose tunes that cover all 4 strings. Play the tunes on the new fiddle, then on your own, then again on the new fiddle. In other words play the different fiddles "back to back". This makes it easier to judge if the new fiddle is significantly better than your own, and in what ways.
* You're looking for brightness and clarity, but not tinniness or harshness - and as evenly as possible across all 4 strings. You don't want a muffled, dead tone. As kennedy said, you want it to ring a bit when you lift the bow.
* Ultimately, you want what sounds good to you. And something better than what you've already got.
I forgot to say that everything I've just written really only applies if you are buying from outside the trade - if you go to a reputable dealer you can be pretty confident that the price of the instrument is what it is worth, so then you only have to concentrate on finding one that feels and sounds right for you.
And if you do buy from a dealer, ask them for an appraisal certificate - a certificate signed by the dealer attesting to the value of the instrument. This will help a lot with getting insurance, and fixing the price if you decide to sell the instrument in the future.
Wow, I knew you guys would pull through! Thanks for all the helpful replies
LowWhistler - I *wish* that I was born with a fiddle in one hand and a bow in the other, but alas I grew up in the Annapolis Valley (about an hour outside Halifax) and the fiddle scene just ins't as booming as it is in Cape Breton (I'll admit that I am slightly jealous!)
Jennifer
You know the FolkLife center shop in the middle of Halifax right? It's not a bad place to shop for both used and new fiddles...they have a VERY nice selection of pre-loved fiddles that you can try out. They've been in business for a long time...staff can be a bit crusty sometimes but they're worthwhile.
There used to be a guy who both made and sold fiddles/cellos/violas etc in Halifax as well, but I think he may have close up shop.
There are two excellent violin/cello/viola/bass shops in Toronto that would send you stuff under consideration by mail: I use The Sound Post [they're on the web] and the other is Heinel's Violins....both great places with a+ service.
You know about the sessions both in Halifax and Wolfville?
why not go, hang out and ask around if anyone has a fiddle they'd like to sell....I'm sure there's something around, but do have a lutheir check it out before you buy...ie, Folk Life centre of somebody.
I will try the Folk Life Centre in Halifax, thanks.
I go to the session in Kentville and have a few leads on some secondhand instruments in the local area. However, I am new to all of this and I need as much advice as I can get!! I have asked my teacher as well as some more experienced players for pointers, but I thought I would put this out to the online community in case someone had some different things to watch out for.
Trad Shark - thanks for the extensive list! It sounds as though you have some experience in this area This may be a rather dumb question, but what the heck are the purfling and the bee sting???
No problem Jennifer, I hope it proves useful to you or others
The pufling is the black stripe that goes all the way around the outside of the fiddle. It's actually a thin piece of hardwood that is inlaid into a groove cut around the edge of the instrument. It helps protect against the formation of cracks in the plates.
The bee sting is the pointy bit sticking out of the waist of the fiddle, often called the "C" bouts. There are 2 on either side of each plate, so 8 in total.
The purfling has to come neatly to a sharp point at the bee sting, so the luthier has to cut a very delicate mitre joint (a 45 degree cut) so the 2 pieces of purfling can match up. It's pretty tricky work.
I've seen some cheap fiddles that have no purfling at all. The black line is painted on! Shudder....
Jen
there are two makers in Cape Breton I know of who are excellent, I have one of those makers fiddles and it was quite reasonable [under $1500 at the time], one is David Papazian...you can contact him through Paul Cranford at Lighthouse Publications [he sells cb and irish cds and music books]...also do contact Otis Tomas...he makes awesome fiddles althoug I don't own one:
May I say that the centre in Halifax is called the Halifax Folklore centre. [not Folklife] I purchased a fiddle from them several years ago and they have good instruments and customer service. When I am ready to upgrade, I'll go back there.
Play on.....
Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Hi Folks,
I am looking to buy a second-hand fiddle and I am hoping you could give me some pointers.
I am currently playing a low-end student violin which is on loan from a friend. I have been taking lessons for about a year now with this instrument and I feel that it is time that I *own* a half decent one. There are several adds in the local classifieds for second-hand fiddles from private sellers, however, I am very inexperienced when it comes to buying instruments. I was hoping that I could get advice on how to know if the instrument is what I'm looking for - How to recognize tone quality, how to know if the instrument is "set up" properly, how to know when I'm being ripped off, etc.
I seached earlier discussions and found a helpful thread. However, I'm sure that there is more to take into consideration and I would like to hear your opinons and personal experiences.
Thanks in advanced
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by jsmith
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Ideally you'd want to buy from someone who would either let you take it home and try it for a day or two, or who'd be willing to hold your check and give you a few days to bring it back if you end up not liking it. If you can't take it home, then try to bring someone with you who plays so you can at least get a second opinion. It's a tough way to find an instrument since it's statistically unlikely that the one fiddle advertised is going to suit you - I think you're much better off either finding someone who sells a lot of instruments out of their house or buying from a violin shop (Shar Music will mail you fiddles to try out if you're in the US)
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by airport
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Wow, but you're in Nova Scotia - there are probably amazing fiddles to be found there. I heard Jerry Holland's fiddle came from a laundromat - his father saw it hanging in the window and bought it on the spot. In your case, if it's comfortable, you like the sound, and the price feels good, then get it!
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by airport
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
I thought kids in Nova Scotia were born with a fiddle in one hand and a bow in the other...
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Really there is little I can offer in advice apart from this. Whatever you get, get it set up for you at a luthiers. . Get good strings and get a good bow. The best I can suggest is asking a knowledgeable friend to help or buy from a reputable luthier. Its going to be pot luck IMO what you end up with unless you can get help..
My advice would be; dont spend too much , just get a cheapish fiddle, and spend any money left over on a good bow , strings and set up.
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Among many other things, you want it to ring---the sound should continue even when your bow leaves the string. Fiddles that don't ring are "closed" and sound like they have a cold.
Check for cracks, open seams, pegs that don't turn easily, pegs stuck too far into the peg box---generally you want the thing to be in good shape.
Check for evenness across the strings---lots of fiddles sound great in the lower register or the higher one, but not so many on all of them.
Also go shopping in some proper violin shops to get an idea of what's out there and what the market is---it will help you know the value of what you're looking at. And get a good player to go shopping with you if at all possible.
And don't forget the bow.
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
On second thought, instead of taking a violin player shopping with you, find a carpenter or someone who knows their wood. They'll notice all the things Kennedy mentioned, and they'd probably figure out fairly quickly which stuff the best violins are made of...
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by airport
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
My advice would be to avoid buying privately - most fiddlers seriously over-value their own instruments (particularly if the label says 'Stradivarius'
)
The secondhand fiddle market is an absolute minefield, If you are going to spend serious money on an instrument you really HAVE to find someone who knows what they are doing to help you. (And that means someone who knows about buying fiddles, not just a good player.) If you take a $300 fiddle and a $10,000 one and stand them next to each other, most people won't be able to tell which is which.
If you really can't get help, go to the forums at maestronet.com and spend a LOT of time reading the 'Auction Scroll' section - there is a lot of advice from professional dealers about identifying and valuing fiddles. And start watching instruments on Ebay to get a feel for prices - but don't buy anything there unless you are a hardened gambler!
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by skreech
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Structure (Stuff that a luthier may or may not be able to fix):
==========
* Check for any open seams between the top plate, backplate and ribs.
* Check for cracks in all surfaces.
* Does the glue look neat? Has it split and someone fixed it with super-glue?
* Check the neck angle. The fingerboard should taper upwards towards the bridge, not lie flat across the belly.
* Is the black paint coming off the fingerboard in any spots? A good fiddle will have an ebony fingerboard i.e. black all the way through.
* Inspect the pegbox for cracks leading from the peg holes. Pegs can be replaced - pegbox, not so much. Cracks in the pegbox should be a dealbreaker for you.
* Have a look at the purfling. Does it look neat all the way around? Is the mitre joint in the purfling at the bee sting (the points of the waist) neat? This is one of the hardest bits for the maker, so it'll give you an idea of the maker's skill.
* Have a look at the f holes. Are they neat? Any cracks, roughness around the edges? Sometimes people mess with the soundpost and damage the f holes in the process.
Setup (stuff that can easily be fixed by a luthier):
======
* The bridge should be lined up with the notches on the f holes, give or take a millimeter or 2.
* Look in through the f hole on the treble side and spot the soundpost. It should be just behind the treble foot of the bridge, and fairly central to the bridge foot. I've seen fiddles where the soundpost was directly under the bridge foot, resulting in a dull, dead sound.
* Any bits of string tied to the soundpost? This is a tell-tale sign of an amateur messing with the soundpost position.
* Is the bridge standing vertically on the belly? Judge it from the back side (facing the tailpiece), as the front should be tapered towards the back.
*You also want to see some signs of carving or shaping at the waist of the bridge. The bottom of the bridge between the 2 feet should also have been shaped, and not just straight across like a blank.
* Are there any gaps between the bridge feet and the belly? The feet should be completely flush with the belly.
* Are the string notches in the nut neat and evenly spaced?
* Are the pegs pretty snug? You should be able to move them, but they should not move by themselves.
* What type of strings are fitted? If you always use steel strings, you don't want to be judging a fiddle fitted with gut strings. Don't dismiss the fiddle based on this, but it's harder to compare it to your own fiddle.
Sound (the really important bit):
======
* No matter how good it looks, it has to sound good to you. If this is gonna be your fiddle, you have to like it.
* It can be tricky to judge the sound of a strange instrument, especially if you're inexperienced. Pick a couple of tunes that you know well. Choose tunes that cover all 4 strings. Play the tunes on the new fiddle, then on your own, then again on the new fiddle. In other words play the different fiddles "back to back". This makes it easier to judge if the new fiddle is significantly better than your own, and in what ways.
* You're looking for brightness and clarity, but not tinniness or harshness - and as evenly as possible across all 4 strings. You don't want a muffled, dead tone. As kennedy said, you want it to ring a bit when you lift the bow.
* Ultimately, you want what sounds good to you. And something better than what you've already got.
Best of luck in your shopping
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by tradshark
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
I forgot to say that everything I've just written really only applies if you are buying from outside the trade - if you go to a reputable dealer you can be pretty confident that the price of the instrument is what it is worth, so then you only have to concentrate on finding one that feels and sounds right for you.
And if you do buy from a dealer, ask them for an appraisal certificate - a certificate signed by the dealer attesting to the value of the instrument. This will help a lot with getting insurance, and fixing the price if you decide to sell the instrument in the future.
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by skreech
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Wow, I knew you guys would pull through! Thanks for all the helpful replies
LowWhistler - I *wish* that I was born with a fiddle in one hand and a bow in the other, but alas I grew up in the Annapolis Valley (about an hour outside Halifax) and the fiddle scene just ins't as booming as it is in Cape Breton (I'll admit that I am slightly jealous!)
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by jsmith
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Tradshark's list of what to look for in a fiddle is the best I've seen on this forum. It's worth printing out.
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Jennifer
You know the FolkLife center shop in the middle of Halifax right? It's not a bad place to shop for both used and new fiddles...they have a VERY nice selection of pre-loved fiddles that you can try out. They've been in business for a long time...staff can be a bit crusty sometimes but they're worthwhile.
There used to be a guy who both made and sold fiddles/cellos/violas etc in Halifax as well, but I think he may have close up shop.
There are two excellent violin/cello/viola/bass shops in Toronto that would send you stuff under consideration by mail: I use The Sound Post [they're on the web] and the other is Heinel's Violins....both great places with a+ service.
You know about the sessions both in Halifax and Wolfville?
why not go, hang out and ask around if anyone has a fiddle they'd like to sell....I'm sure there's something around, but do have a lutheir check it out before you buy...ie, Folk Life centre of somebody.
good luck.
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Mtodd,
This may be a rather dumb question, but what the heck are the purfling and the bee sting???
I will try the Folk Life Centre in Halifax, thanks.
I go to the session in Kentville and have a few leads on some secondhand instruments in the local area. However, I am new to all of this and I need as much advice as I can get!! I have asked my teacher as well as some more experienced players for pointers, but I thought I would put this out to the online community in case someone had some different things to watch out for.
Trad Shark - thanks for the extensive list! It sounds as though you have some experience in this area
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by jsmith
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
No problem Jennifer, I hope it proves useful to you or others
The pufling is the black stripe that goes all the way around the outside of the fiddle. It's actually a thin piece of hardwood that is inlaid into a groove cut around the edge of the instrument. It helps protect against the formation of cracks in the plates.
The bee sting is the pointy bit sticking out of the waist of the fiddle, often called the "C" bouts. There are 2 on either side of each plate, so 8 in total.
The purfling has to come neatly to a sharp point at the bee sting, so the luthier has to cut a very delicate mitre joint (a 45 degree cut) so the 2 pieces of purfling can match up. It's pretty tricky work.
I've seen some cheap fiddles that have no purfling at all. The black line is painted on! Shudder....
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by tradshark
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
Jen
there are two makers in Cape Breton I know of who are excellent, I have one of those makers fiddles and it was quite reasonable [under $1500 at the time], one is David Papazian...you can contact him through Paul Cranford at Lighthouse Publications [he sells cb and irish cds and music books]...also do contact Otis Tomas...he makes awesome fiddles althoug I don't own one:
http://www.fiddletree.com/
david is based near Sydney I believe.
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
ah...he's got a site now:
http://www.cranfordpub.com/papazian/dpapazian.htm
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Tips for buying second-hand fiddles
May I say that the centre in Halifax is called the Halifax Folklore centre. [not Folklife] I purchased a fiddle from them several years ago and they have good instruments and customer service. When I am ready to upgrade, I'll go back there.
Play on.....
# Posted on July 12th 2009 by baylady