fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
hey im doing some transriptions of fiddle players and was hoping some one could tell me of some players fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
maybe some of the old players from the 68 recordings or even some new stuff that i could buy the cd .....also not matt cranitch cause i transcribed loads of his stuff before
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
The West Limerick fiddle style is sparse, with a stronger emphasis on rhyhm than ornamentation and variation. Check out Martin Mulvihill, if you can find any of his stuff, and a guy called Diarmuid O'Brien. His album Cairdre Cairdin is a litle gem.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I can't help wondering what the difference is between:
"fiddle players who use little ornamentation or variation"
and
"fiddle players who use little imagination"
And, of course, I'd like to berate the poster for the pointlessness of notating performances. But I'm still confused as to why they'd want to specifically notate players who don't use twiddley bits and variation. Unless of course, it's merely that it's easier to notate more accurately.
But then it's a college project, so it's not really for them, it's for the college, so they have no choice if they want to pass.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
'I can't help wondering what the difference is between:
"fiddle players who use little ornamentation or variation"
and
"fiddle players who use little imagination"'
How about "fiddle players who use lots of restraint"?
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Hey llig leahcim the reason im looking for a fiddle player with little orn and var is because we have the choice to pick who we want and because i have another 4 projects to get done and also study for my other exams im trying to pick the easiest player possible to transcribe so i can use my time to get some other work done.
I was looking for some help but as usual there is always one who has to criticise
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
No you were wrong, unless you consider, the above mentioned musicians lacking in imagination? Yes it might be easier to notate, but it might not... just because a player might not use a roll or a triplet certainly doesnt mean their playing is simple, it means they chose different ways to inspire their playing. you have a one track mind llig, why not open it up a bit? Perhaps they vary the timing so subtly that it could be much harder to notate accurately.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
No need to criticise, Michael. I understand your point but If I were in Irish Mando's position (had a zillion papers and exams) I'd do the exact same thing. If it's a uni project you're just trying to get a grade on so you can pass a course, you choose the path of least resistance. Pragmatism rules. Sure, it's nice to have the challenge of trying to understand more complex variation and ornamentation but if it's finals week, you get to a point of not really caring and just want to get the bloody thing DONE.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I wasn't criticising, if anything, if you have to do it then of course choosing to notate someone with little imagination because it's easier is a good decision.
And if anyone thinks they can even attempt to notate the subtlety of any decent players' timing, they are an idiot.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Perhaps they vary the timing so subtly that it could be much harder to notate accurately..
Quite true well said..ian that you just cite the polar opposite to Lligs point. Im nearly convinced you two are married
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Perhaps the imagination needed to listed to the less ornamented playing of some people is needed by the listener, as the musician doesn't fill the music with twiddles and flicks to enable the mind to wander into other spaces within the tune, previously unglimpsed panoramas within the melody obscured so many times by the clutter. We live in a culture these days that has to have the gaps filled in with anything, as long as there is no space.
If you've no imagination, it might be difficult to see that.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Yes. Just like the way Dickens describes:
"Wherefore the clerk put on his white comforter, and tried to warm himself at the candle; in which effort, not being a man of a strong imagination, he failed."
i.e. You need imagintaion to hear something that isn't there.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
There are regional styles (and individual examples of regional styles) that do not use a lot of ornamentation. Variation between repetitions of a tune is a relatively new thing, also, and there are MANY great players who don't use much, if any. To suggest that players of this music who play the tunes the same way through each time in some traditional style are lacking in imagination is very foolish and misplaced and betrays a lack of understanding of the tradition.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I've never said that plain playing cannot be marvelous and beautiful etc. But surley it's OK to say that such a player, however wonderful, is not very imaginative?
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I do like those times in tunes where an immediate exact repeat of a phrase sounds different second time through because it is following the end of itself rather than the end of what came before, and then goes somewhere different. Or the A part sounds different because it is following the B part. Seems a shame to spoil it by always doing variations.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
They may not vary a lot, but they have style, timing and subtlety. Flavor, if you will. Oomph, nyah, lift (which always makes me think of brassieres) and so on. I guess I’m seeing variation as something other than timing. Slight alterations in timing could be seen as a variation, but (for right or wrong) I see variation as changes in the actual notes played on subsequent repetitions of a tune.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Nice analogy, SWFL.
I was faffing about the School of Scottish Studies Library (as you do) and found a book about Irish traditional music, which of course I could not resist picking up and flipping through it. In the wee chapter I read, the author had basically transcribed the playing of various musicians, which included Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy, Tommy Potts, and a fair few others, and had a detailed discussion of the harmonics and music theory around their variations and ornamentations of a particular tune. Essentially he was arguing why the placement of each note or ornament had the effect it did and its relationship to other notes and the general shape of the tune. To tell you the truth, my eyes kind of glazed over and I didn't read very much of it, as I'm not at all mathematically or music theory oriented. It was an interesting idea, though. I could probably find it again next time I'm on that part of the campus and get the reference if anyone is interested.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Yes, I guess there are subtleties of dynamics in there etc, hard not to put in (an no sense in not doing). But there are times when I have finished transcribing the second half of an A part, realised it was the same as first half, listened to a MIDI and convinced myself it sounded different. But then having just heard a recording several times maybe there is a carry-over from that.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
"I've never said that plain playing cannot be marvelous and beautiful etc. But surley it's OK to say that such a player, however wonderful, is not very imaginative?"
I don't think so. The "imagination" in "plain" playing manifests itself as depth rather than the more superficial swapping of some notes for others. Imagination is what you do with the tools you have at your disposal. If the tradition you learned doesn't involve changing notes, and you are a creative person, you will find other ways to express your creativity. Melodic variation is a lot easier to achieve than subtlety, in my opinion, although it [subtlety] is not as easily recognized by the novice.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm not sure why you asume that if a player uses melodic variation (with subtlety and restraint of course) they preclude their music from depth? Why does it have to be one or the other? You say depth "rather than" the more superficial.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I don't think imagination is "what you do with the tools you have at your disposal". Accepting the tools you are given is not imaginative. Sure, great things can be fashioned from the tools you are given. But the imaginative persion fashions his own tools from inside his mind
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm not saying there is no imagination to be found in plain playing, just less. And I'm not saying that this less imaginative approach is any the less wonderful. Indeed, as you say, the concentration on the more subtle can be great. Imagination isn't everything.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
The Irish fiddling that can be played is not the enduring and
unchanging Irish fiddling. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Simplicity can be indeed be full of art, but repeating the exact same e.g. 3 times is exactly one out of millions of ways to play a tune.
What I find interesting when listening to in a tune, is when the musician has gone beyond the basics of a tune and thrown in surprises and small nuances, almost unnoticable at first unless you listen carefully. It takes great skills to do this with taste.
The task of transcribing e.g. Michael Coleman is thus much more work than what "irish mandolin" is asking for - but my bet is it would also be more of an eyeopener....
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Yes, Fiddle4, The YouTube video you ask about is the Altan fiddler - a very young Ciaran Tourish - one of the fiddlers with Altan (the other being Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh). There's PLENTY of ornamentation in Ciaran's presentation here, trebles (bowed triplets), double-stops, pull-offs, grace notes, a spare short roll here and there - and lots of imagination, I'd say.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
[quote] And if anyone thinks they can even attempt
to notate the subtlety of any decent players' timing,
they are an idiot. [quote]
OK, I'm an idiot. But I can do this and I have lots of
transcriptions to prove it. Software helps.
If you practice this with good software, you can
produce good transcriptions that you can then play
from the page. I'm a fiddler, and my transcriptions
are from pipes, whistles, fiddles, guitars, banjos,
pianos, harmonicas, etc. I can write them in pencil
on music staff paper and then load into the software.
I use a fiddle to assist with the transcription and often
a bow, too.
This is not a skill that one could automatically learn
in a semester in college but, do not be discouraged,
you can make a lot of progress with a good ear and
pencil.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Ahh, there is a lot more to the music than timing, melodic variation and ornaments! Bow dynamics for a start, now that is not so easy to notate! It will be a while before midi can reproduce that, or it can be even notated.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Hey dogmageek,
Transcribing is easy. Making something look like the best notation of any performance is easy.
However, you miss so much information when you write it down that it's an almost completely useless activity. I'm sure you can play what you wrote, but if you didn't have the benefit of the recording, and the player at all had any insight, the performance off the page would *not* be like the audibly recorded performance.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I didn't mean to suggest that there is a either/or with depth and melodic variation. The "rather than" was just to say that a player might do one rather than the other. What I have a problem with is loaded descriptors like "plain" and "unimaginative" to describe playing that doesn't use much melodic variation. There are lots of ways to express ones imagination playing this music besides melodic variation, and there is no reason to think that melodic variation is better or "more imaginative" than other approaches.
Since when is getting a MIDI file to sound human the goal of a good transcription? There are prescriptive transcriptions that fairly assume some knowledge on the part of the performer, and descriptive transcriptions that may have a particular focus (i.e. ornamentation), and both of these serve their purposes well. I'm not a transcriber at all, but I'm sure it can be a very useful excersise for people at just about any stage of learning this music. Of course a lot of information is lost when the music is written down, but as long as the transcriber doesn't claim that they are capturing every aspect of the performance, this shouldn't be the grounds for complaints.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Christy,
What you wrote looks interesting, but I can't understand it. Can you explain to me what is done that expresses one's imagination in this music that doesn't involve varying the melody?
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Then there is bowing in numerous subtle ways, gently teasing the notes from the string, each note with a gentle begining, a solid centre and then sliding to the next! Pushing the rhythm forwards or gently holding back . Listen to an east Clare stylist, then a Donegal stylist! there is much more than ornamental variation and melodic variation. Phrasing, how you speak/sing the tune, where you accent, where you breathe. the pace, fast , slow, etc.. there are an infinite number of ways to play a tune without any typical ornaments or melodic variation.
The melodic and ornamental variation are the surface layers, the obvious even superficial ways to vary a tune. there is literally no end to the possible variations to use your imagination with.
Try a different key, gives a very different feel to a tune, take a couple of old standards, say the Monnaghan jig, then Morrisons , play them in Dm. They become different almost tunes . deeper, darker, more melancholic perhaps, richer, . This offers different ornamental possibilities , cant roll the Morrison's first bar for example, which clearly shows the tune itself has no roll there.
The roll is an ornament to use, or not , as your fancy takes you. All the ornaments are exactly that, they are ways to add flavour, contrast, variation to the tunes. If you just mindlessly slather them on all over the place, then you lose the dynamics, it all becomes the same, . The ornaments should not interfere with the tune and its flow.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
arrrrgghh. seriously. those first two sentences were lifted from the jacket of some violin-themed bodice ripper. where do you live anyway? I'll send you my extra copy of strunk & white
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Agreed, but no one is saying that,[are they?] Just that A reliance on the twiddly bits as the sole avenue for imaginative playing is unimaginative! A 'simple' straight rendition of a tune can be full of subtle variation and imagination. The tune rules!
Is it about what we can do with a tune? show how good, how Imaginative we are, or is to put the tune first? To remove ourselves from attachment to what we can do and allow the tune to breathe? To give it space, to let whatever variation, ornaments just develop as an expression of the tune through us.
Jeez lads,I dont know, Im off on one here! LOL
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Sure the kids are asleep. we all got back, watched a movie etc and now im back at 'work' Im trying to clean up some old audio recordings from 1899!! but my sound cards are giving me grief, still got rid of a lot of crackle so thats enough for one evening, jeez software wonderful stuff but getting my old fiddlers head round it !
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
So, Christy:
1. an interesting version that never changes expresses memorization skill perhaps, but not really imagination.
2. an interesting version that never changes expresses memorization skill perhaps, but not really imagination. If one is imaginitive, why can't one do it in real time?
3. Okay, so incompletely copying something is imaginative.
4. I think imaginative players can play with rhythmic subtlety and vary the tunes.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
The need to vary things is a symptom of the need to put ones individual stamp on something which is a symptom of our education in Western Art and Literature where the creativity and imagination of the artist/author is paramount. Please think about that. Traditional music is defined by the tunes, the regional styles that they are played in, and perhaps some exceptional players that exemplify these styles. I think that those of you who are pushing the "Western Art" version of imagination (the expression of the individual) are really missing the boat. We're talking about about TRADITIONAL music. Of course there is plenty of room for variation and expression in all sorts of ways. I would say that a great depth of experience and understanding is necessary to pull off these variations without sounding like crap to an experienced traditional musician. So for some relatively inexperienced musician to claim that throwing in some variations make ones playing more imaginative than some more traditional player who has a version of the tune (which they don't vary) that has evolved over a lifetime of experience... It's ridiculous. Besides, the kind of variations that actually sound good (like part of the tune) are very formulaic and traditional themselves. Once one understands the music at acertain level, they just happen.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm sure variation came from the very first musician who ended playing the same damn tune for the umpteenth time for the same dancer, when he finally said to himself "If I don't find something interesting to do with this tune this dancer always wants to dance to I'm going to jump off a bridge before this dancer or tune ever finds me again."
...and thus, variations were born.
To be frank, I'd worry about a musician who can mindlessly plow the same tune in the same way, over and over again. Maybe check their pulse, make sure they're still breathing. Should we call an ambulance? Is he stuck? CD skipping?
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
From wikipedia (sorry):
"Art music (or serious music[1] or erudite music), is an umbrella term generally used to refer to musical traditions implying advanced structural and theoretical considerations[2] and a written musical tradition.[3] The notion of art music generally refers to a frequent musicological distinction that musicologist Philip Tagg refers to as an "axiomatic triangle consisting of 'folk', 'art' and 'popular' musics".[4] As Tagg explained, each of these three is distinguishable from both others according to certain criteria.[5] In this regard, it is frequently used as a contrasting term to popular music and folk music.[6][7][8] (Folk music is also frequently referred as traditional music in this classification). And it is mostly used to refer to music descending from classical tradition. This is generally the common definition musicologists and scholars including Theodor Adorno[9], Deryck Cooke [10], Joseph Swain [11], Nicolas Cook or Nicola Dibbens[12], and Philip Tagg [13] refer to. However some other authors interested in music theory may define it differently. Musician Catherine Schmidt-Jones for example defines art music as "a music which requires significantly more work by the listener to fully appreciate than is typical of popular music." In her view "This can include the more challenging types of jazz and rock music, as well as Classical."
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Also, Llig, most traditional artforms that primarily require the artist (whether that is a dancer, musician, sculptor, or whatever) to replicate traditionally codfied forms. There is usually room for some creativity or individual expression within the form, but the main goal is to perpetuate the form.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
"
art music as "a music which requires significantly more work by the listener to fully appreciate than is typical of popular music." In her view "This can include the more challenging types of jazz and rock music, as well as Classical."
"
Would you not put a set of reels played Matt Molloy in that category?
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I think by "listener" she means "Punter" (to us.) To a flute player, or trad player, I suppose yes. But since she is refering to the listener in general, I think the answer is no.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Llig -
I agree with you for the most part (especially "Most of the people who post hear don't understand it") ; )
BUT, I'm not sure the point of Molloy's playing is for the punter to get the bits. I feel like the bits are for him and for us. Maybe the music is not for the punter at all... unlike Kylie...definitely more to talk about here...
Anyway, I've enjoyed the discussion, but I'm afraid I'm off and away from the machine for a few days.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Chrishty - if you think that Joe Sixpack can immediately hear everything there is to hear in this music, you don't know what to listen for. Oh, and no-one's stopping you from spouting uninformed opinions. Please continue!
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I know a fiddle player who plays like a saint, trouble is he is a retarded savant, can't play the thing the same twice in a row. Is the skill to vary a tune creativity or is it just a motor skill.
Let's hear a tune that the wonderful llig leahcim wrote, that doesn't sound like every other tune.
Then we can worship.
Some people like to enjoy a work of art without covering it in goo.
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Dear Irish Mandolin
Your simple request has elicited many replies and very few helpful suggestions. In fact I'd say your post has been hi-jacked.
Just wanted to suggest, in respect of transcribing, I always found Ceili Band versions of tunes to give good basic versions without any fancy stuff. I recommend my students to learn from this sort of material, so they can learn a basic tune and put in their own variations etc.
I learnt a lot of my basic repertoire this way - and then went on to transcribe all of Coleman's recordings - just for fun!
Hope this helps. Sharon
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Sharon the Flute
What do you mean 'all of Coleman's recordings'? Curious to know.
I take it irish Mandolin your not enthused about your 4 projects which is a shame. Is this indicitive of music courses that students choose their subjects on finding the easiest and quickest ways rather than studying music they are excited and interested in? Would hate to have to subject myself to listening and worse still transcribing music i wasn't excited over. Seems like torture to me.
fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
hey im doing some transriptions of fiddle players and was hoping some one could tell me of some players fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
maybe some of the old players from the 68 recordings or even some new stuff that i could buy the cd .....also not matt cranitch cause i transcribed loads of his stuff before
Cheers thanks
# Posted on April 6th 2009 by Irish Mandolin
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm curious as to your motive, why are you transcribing it?
# Posted on April 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
'I'm curious as to your motive, why are you transcribing it?'
Because you can't.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by McDermott
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
sorry 78 recordings
its part of a project for college
well any ideas
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Irish Mandolin
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Maybe check out the Kane sisters. They play pretty cleanly.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by nofrets
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
The fiddle player for Altan - whose name I cannot hope spell.
Also John Doherty the legendary Donegal man.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Hup
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Yvonne Casey
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
The West Limerick fiddle style is sparse, with a stronger emphasis on rhyhm than ornamentation and variation. Check out Martin Mulvihill, if you can find any of his stuff, and a guy called Diarmuid O'Brien. His album Cairdre Cairdin is a litle gem.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Matt McGranahan!!
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by munya beor
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Martin Hayes actually doesn't use that much ornamentation but its his style and interpretation of a tune which is so fantastic.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by iwerzon
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I can't help wondering what the difference is between:
"fiddle players who use little ornamentation or variation"
and
"fiddle players who use little imagination"
And, of course, I'd like to berate the poster for the pointlessness of notating performances. But I'm still confused as to why they'd want to specifically notate players who don't use twiddley bits and variation. Unless of course, it's merely that it's easier to notate more accurately.
But then it's a college project, so it's not really for them, it's for the college, so they have no choice if they want to pass.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
'I can't help wondering what the difference is between:
"fiddle players who use little ornamentation or variation"
and
"fiddle players who use little imagination"'
How about "fiddle players who use lots of restraint"?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Restrain what though? their imagination?
It seems to me that the poster is asking for players who always play their tunes the same way every time. Is that restraint or lack of imagination?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Hey llig leahcim the reason im looking for a fiddle player with little orn and var is because we have the choice to pick who we want and because i have another 4 projects to get done and also study for my other exams im trying to pick the easiest player possible to transcribe so i can use my time to get some other work done.
I was looking for some help but as usual there is always one who has to criticise
Thanks for the suggestions all who replied
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Irish Mandolin
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
So I was right then, you want to notate someone with little imagination because it's easier.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
No you were wrong, unless you consider, the above mentioned musicians lacking in imagination? Yes it might be easier to notate, but it might not... just because a player might not use a roll or a triplet certainly doesnt mean their playing is simple, it means they chose different ways to inspire their playing. you have a one track mind llig, why not open it up a bit? Perhaps they vary the timing so subtly that it could be much harder to notate accurately.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
No need to criticise, Michael. I understand your point but If I were in Irish Mando's position (had a zillion papers and exams) I'd do the exact same thing. If it's a uni project you're just trying to get a grade on so you can pass a course, you choose the path of least resistance. Pragmatism rules. Sure, it's nice to have the challenge of trying to understand more complex variation and ornamentation but if it's finals week, you get to a point of not really caring and just want to get the bloody thing DONE.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I wasn't criticising, if anything, if you have to do it then of course choosing to notate someone with little imagination because it's easier is a good decision.
And if anyone thinks they can even attempt to notate the subtlety of any decent players' timing, they are an idiot.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Perhaps they vary the timing so subtly that it could be much harder to notate accurately..
Quite true well said..ian that you just cite the polar opposite to Lligs point. Im nearly convinced you two are married
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Another restrained and civil discussion of music on The Session.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by gwfowler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
$.02. Isn't attempting to transcribe or notate subtlety, timing and style a bit like trying to carry water with a pasta colander?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
yep
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Perhaps the imagination needed to listed to the less ornamented playing of some people is needed by the listener, as the musician doesn't fill the music with twiddles and flicks to enable the mind to wander into other spaces within the tune, previously unglimpsed panoramas within the melody obscured so many times by the clutter. We live in a culture these days that has to have the gaps filled in with anything, as long as there is no space.
If you've no imagination, it might be difficult to see that.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
listed? I meant listen.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Yes. Just like the way Dickens describes:
"Wherefore the clerk put on his white comforter, and tried to warm himself at the candle; in which effort, not being a man of a strong imagination, he failed."
i.e. You need imagintaion to hear something that isn't there.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
There are regional styles (and individual examples of regional styles) that do not use a lot of ornamentation. Variation between repetitions of a tune is a relatively new thing, also, and there are MANY great players who don't use much, if any. To suggest that players of this music who play the tunes the same way through each time in some traditional style are lacking in imagination is very foolish and misplaced and betrays a lack of understanding of the tradition.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I've never said that plain playing cannot be marvelous and beautiful etc. But surley it's OK to say that such a player, however wonderful, is not very imaginative?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I do like those times in tunes where an immediate exact repeat of a phrase sounds different second time through because it is following the end of itself rather than the end of what came before, and then goes somewhere different. Or the A part sounds different because it is following the B part. Seems a shame to spoil it by always doing variations.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by David50
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
They may not vary a lot, but they have style, timing and subtlety. Flavor, if you will. Oomph, nyah, lift (which always makes me think of brassieres) and so on. I guess I’m seeing variation as something other than timing. Slight alterations in timing could be seen as a variation, but (for right or wrong) I see variation as changes in the actual notes played on subsequent repetitions of a tune.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Nice analogy, SWFL.
I was faffing about the School of Scottish Studies Library (as you do) and found a book about Irish traditional music, which of course I could not resist picking up and flipping through it. In the wee chapter I read, the author had basically transcribed the playing of various musicians, which included Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy, Tommy Potts, and a fair few others, and had a detailed discussion of the harmonics and music theory around their variations and ornamentations of a particular tune. Essentially he was arguing why the placement of each note or ornament had the effect it did and its relationship to other notes and the general shape of the tune. To tell you the truth, my eyes kind of glazed over and I didn't read very much of it, as I'm not at all mathematically or music theory oriented. It was an interesting idea, though. I could probably find it again next time I'm on that part of the campus and get the reference if anyone is interested.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Yes, I guess there are subtleties of dynamics in there etc, hard not to put in (an no sense in not doing). But there are times when I have finished transcribing the second half of an A part, realised it was the same as first half, listened to a MIDI and convinced myself it sounded different. But then having just heard a recording several times maybe there is a carry-over from that.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by David50
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
"I've never said that plain playing cannot be marvelous and beautiful etc. But surley it's OK to say that such a player, however wonderful, is not very imaginative?"
I don't think so. The "imagination" in "plain" playing manifests itself as depth rather than the more superficial swapping of some notes for others. Imagination is what you do with the tools you have at your disposal. If the tradition you learned doesn't involve changing notes, and you are a creative person, you will find other ways to express your creativity. Melodic variation is a lot easier to achieve than subtlety, in my opinion, although it [subtlety] is not as easily recognized by the novice.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Ya like that Silver Spear? Even us fellas can use a little help in that department:
http://tinyurl.com/d3dmxm
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm not sure why you asume that if a player uses melodic variation (with subtlety and restraint of course) they preclude their music from depth? Why does it have to be one or the other? You say depth "rather than" the more superficial.
Why can it not be "as well as"?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I don't think imagination is "what you do with the tools you have at your disposal". Accepting the tools you are given is not imaginative. Sure, great things can be fashioned from the tools you are given. But the imaginative persion fashions his own tools from inside his mind
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm not saying there is no imagination to be found in plain playing, just less. And I'm not saying that this less imaginative approach is any the less wonderful. Indeed, as you say, the concentration on the more subtle can be great. Imagination isn't everything.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Does this tool protrude from your head llig?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by T
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Hey silver spear, what was the book?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
The Irish fiddling that can be played is not the enduring and
unchanging Irish fiddling. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.
-Lau O'Tsu
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Perhaps it takes great imagination to see the true beauty of a simple, unornamented version.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by ayedbl
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Straight Playing no Nonsence =
A friend of mine , Dermy Diamond,-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&v=TbmggMOedm0&gl=GB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpNRUkMcbSU&feature=related
Is this the Altan Fiddler , -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvr4h7lxk8E&feature=related
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by FIDDLE4
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Simplicity can be indeed be full of art, but repeating the exact same e.g. 3 times is exactly one out of millions of ways to play a tune.
What I find interesting when listening to in a tune, is when the musician has gone beyond the basics of a tune and thrown in surprises and small nuances, almost unnoticable at first unless you listen carefully. It takes great skills to do this with taste.
The task of transcribing e.g. Michael Coleman is thus much more work than what "irish mandolin" is asking for - but my bet is it would also be more of an eyeopener....
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by FiddleTramp
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Breda Keville's "The Hop Down" might do the job for you.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by hotsauce
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
"a bit like trying to carry water with a pasta colander?"
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
You mean there's a better way? Damn, all that time wasted!
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Yes, Fiddle4, The YouTube video you ask about is the Altan fiddler - a very young Ciaran Tourish - one of the fiddlers with Altan (the other being Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh). There's PLENTY of ornamentation in Ciaran's presentation here, trebles (bowed triplets), double-stops, pull-offs, grace notes, a spare short roll here and there - and lots of imagination, I'd say.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by gwfowler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
[quote] And if anyone thinks they can even attempt
to notate the subtlety of any decent players' timing,
they are an idiot. [quote]
OK, I'm an idiot. But I can do this and I have lots of
transcriptions to prove it. Software helps.
If you practice this with good software, you can
produce good transcriptions that you can then play
from the page. I'm a fiddler, and my transcriptions
are from pipes, whistles, fiddles, guitars, banjos,
pianos, harmonicas, etc. I can write them in pencil
on music staff paper and then load into the software.
I use a fiddle to assist with the transcription and often
a bow, too.
This is not a skill that one could automatically learn
in a semester in college but, do not be discouraged,
you can make a lot of progress with a good ear and
pencil.
Ornamentation included.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by dogmageek
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I don't believe you. If your transcriptions are as good as you say they are, then you will be able to get your midi player to sound like a human.
I'll certainly need proof of that one. But I'm more than willing to hold my hands up and apologise if you can.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Ahh, there is a lot more to the music than timing, melodic variation and ornaments! Bow dynamics for a start, now that is not so easy to notate! It will be a while before midi can reproduce that, or it can be even notated.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Hey dogmageek,
Transcribing is easy. Making something look like the best notation of any performance is easy.
However, you miss so much information when you write it down that it's an almost completely useless activity. I'm sure you can play what you wrote, but if you didn't have the benefit of the recording, and the player at all had any insight, the performance off the page would *not* be like the audibly recorded performance.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by reenactor
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I didn't mean to suggest that there is a either/or with depth and melodic variation. The "rather than" was just to say that a player might do one rather than the other. What I have a problem with is loaded descriptors like "plain" and "unimaginative" to describe playing that doesn't use much melodic variation. There are lots of ways to express ones imagination playing this music besides melodic variation, and there is no reason to think that melodic variation is better or "more imaginative" than other approaches.
Since when is getting a MIDI file to sound human the goal of a good transcription? There are prescriptive transcriptions that fairly assume some knowledge on the part of the performer, and descriptive transcriptions that may have a particular focus (i.e. ornamentation), and both of these serve their purposes well. I'm not a transcriber at all, but I'm sure it can be a very useful excersise for people at just about any stage of learning this music. Of course a lot of information is lost when the music is written down, but as long as the transcriber doesn't claim that they are capturing every aspect of the performance, this shouldn't be the grounds for complaints.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Christy,
What you wrote looks interesting, but I can't understand it. Can you explain to me what is done that expresses one's imagination in this music that doesn't involve varying the melody?
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by reenactor
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
... that begs an amusing reply!
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by pavlf
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Here are a few examples:
Setting the tune in an interesting way (not necessarily varying from that setting.)
Ornamenting the tune (not necessarily varying the ornamentation.)
Simply learning a tune from someone who plays in a very different style and making it your own (i.e. not copying their way of playing it.)
Focusing on the rythmic nuance of the music.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Then there is bowing in numerous subtle ways, gently teasing the notes from the string, each note with a gentle begining, a solid centre and then sliding to the next! Pushing the rhythm forwards or gently holding back . Listen to an east Clare stylist, then a Donegal stylist! there is much more than ornamental variation and melodic variation. Phrasing, how you speak/sing the tune, where you accent, where you breathe. the pace, fast , slow, etc.. there are an infinite number of ways to play a tune without any typical ornaments or melodic variation.
The melodic and ornamental variation are the surface layers, the obvious even superficial ways to vary a tune. there is literally no end to the possible variations to use your imagination with.
Try a different key, gives a very different feel to a tune, take a couple of old standards, say the Monnaghan jig, then Morrisons , play them in Dm. They become different almost tunes . deeper, darker, more melancholic perhaps, richer, . This offers different ornamental possibilities , cant roll the Morrison's first bar for example, which clearly shows the tune itself has no roll there.
The roll is an ornament to use, or not , as your fancy takes you. All the ornaments are exactly that, they are ways to add flavour, contrast, variation to the tunes. If you just mindlessly slather them on all over the place, then you lose the dynamics, it all becomes the same, . The ornaments should not interfere with the tune and its flow.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
That sounds reasonable. Dare I concur? Sure, why not!
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
arrrrgghh. seriously. those first two sentences were lifted from the jacket of some violin-themed bodice ripper. where do you live anyway? I'll send you my extra copy of strunk & white
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by airport
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
sorry blessed peacemaker - crossposted
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by airport
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Never read a bodice ripper in my life , but your probably right! LOL
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
i hoped someone might say "use your imagination"
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by pavlf
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Again, the idea that a player who does use twiddley bits and and variaton can't use all the other stuff that Ionannas listed also is just plain stupid
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Agreed, but no one is saying that,[are they?] Just that A reliance on the twiddly bits as the sole avenue for imaginative playing is unimaginative! A 'simple' straight rendition of a tune can be full of subtle variation and imagination. The tune rules!
Is it about what we can do with a tune? show how good, how Imaginative we are, or is to put the tune first? To remove ourselves from attachment to what we can do and allow the tune to breathe? To give it space, to let whatever variation, ornaments just develop as an expression of the tune through us.
Jeez lads,I dont know, Im off on one here! LOL
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
i think you should go to the pub for a bit?
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by pavlf
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Actually its my birthday and Im already half cut!
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
happy birthday > 50%
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by pavlf
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm glad to say that you seem to be making more sense than usual. Is it because you are half cut or is it because it's your birthday?
Either way, what the feck ore you doing on an internet chat room on your birthday?
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Sure the kids are asleep. we all got back, watched a movie etc and now im back at 'work' Im trying to clean up some old audio recordings from 1899!! but my sound cards are giving me grief, still got rid of a lot of crackle so thats enough for one evening, jeez software wonderful stuff but getting my old fiddlers head round it !
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
So, Christy:
1. an interesting version that never changes expresses memorization skill perhaps, but not really imagination.
2. an interesting version that never changes expresses memorization skill perhaps, but not really imagination. If one is imaginitive, why can't one do it in real time?
3. Okay, so incompletely copying something is imaginative.
4. I think imaginative players can play with rhythmic subtlety and vary the tunes.
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by reenactor
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm half-cut and I'm away to bed. But you're all wrong. Just had to throw that in. Amusing stuff all.
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Wow, good call airport. '...gently teasing...pushing...holding back..."
Whew. I'm off to have a nice cold shower.
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
The need to vary things is a symptom of the need to put ones individual stamp on something which is a symptom of our education in Western Art and Literature where the creativity and imagination of the artist/author is paramount. Please think about that. Traditional music is defined by the tunes, the regional styles that they are played in, and perhaps some exceptional players that exemplify these styles. I think that those of you who are pushing the "Western Art" version of imagination (the expression of the individual) are really missing the boat. We're talking about about TRADITIONAL music. Of course there is plenty of room for variation and expression in all sorts of ways. I would say that a great depth of experience and understanding is necessary to pull off these variations without sounding like crap to an experienced traditional musician. So for some relatively inexperienced musician to claim that throwing in some variations make ones playing more imaginative than some more traditional player who has a version of the tune (which they don't vary) that has evolved over a lifetime of experience... It's ridiculous. Besides, the kind of variations that actually sound good (like part of the tune) are very formulaic and traditional themselves. Once one understands the music at acertain level, they just happen.
# Posted on April 9th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Christy:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
You might wanna grab a mop to wipe up some of that pretension.
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by reenactor
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Hmm reenactor, I think you need it yourself to wipe up some of that scorn!
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by reenactor
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I'm sure variation came from the very first musician who ended playing the same damn tune for the umpteenth time for the same dancer, when he finally said to himself "If I don't find something interesting to do with this tune this dancer always wants to dance to I'm going to jump off a bridge before this dancer or tune ever finds me again."
...and thus, variations were born.
To be frank, I'd worry about a musician who can mindlessly plow the same tune in the same way, over and over again. Maybe check their pulse, make sure they're still breathing. Should we call an ambulance? Is he stuck? CD skipping?
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Since when was traditional Irish music not a Western art form?
And since when has any artform not required creative imagination.
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Art music (capital A) vs. traditional music. Of course it's western, but it's definitely not Art music, in the sense that I'm using it here.
Sorry, reanactror, I'm just enjoying having a disussion here. I suppose you would like us all to just spout our uninformed opinions?
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
From wikipedia (sorry):
"Art music (or serious music[1] or erudite music), is an umbrella term generally used to refer to musical traditions implying advanced structural and theoretical considerations[2] and a written musical tradition.[3] The notion of art music generally refers to a frequent musicological distinction that musicologist Philip Tagg refers to as an "axiomatic triangle consisting of 'folk', 'art' and 'popular' musics".[4] As Tagg explained, each of these three is distinguishable from both others according to certain criteria.[5] In this regard, it is frequently used as a contrasting term to popular music and folk music.[6][7][8] (Folk music is also frequently referred as traditional music in this classification). And it is mostly used to refer to music descending from classical tradition. This is generally the common definition musicologists and scholars including Theodor Adorno[9], Deryck Cooke [10], Joseph Swain [11], Nicolas Cook or Nicola Dibbens[12], and Philip Tagg [13] refer to. However some other authors interested in music theory may define it differently. Musician Catherine Schmidt-Jones for example defines art music as "a music which requires significantly more work by the listener to fully appreciate than is typical of popular music." In her view "This can include the more challenging types of jazz and rock music, as well as Classical."
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Also, Llig, most traditional artforms that primarily require the artist (whether that is a dancer, musician, sculptor, or whatever) to replicate traditionally codfied forms. There is usually room for some creativity or individual expression within the form, but the main goal is to perpetuate the form.
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
"
art music as "a music which requires significantly more work by the listener to fully appreciate than is typical of popular music." In her view "This can include the more challenging types of jazz and rock music, as well as Classical."
"
Would you not put a set of reels played Matt Molloy in that category?
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I think by "listener" she means "Punter" (to us.) To a flute player, or trad player, I suppose yes. But since she is refering to the listener in general, I think the answer is no.
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Sorry, punter definitely doesn't deserve a capital p.
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
You don't think that for a punter, the music of Matt Malloy requires significantly more work to fully appreciate than is typical of popular music?
I'm astonished. You really think that that ever so precise wall of diddley bits is as easilly accessible as Kylie to Joe Punter?
Most of the people who post hear don't understand it, let alone the man in the street.
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Llig -
I agree with you for the most part (especially "Most of the people who post hear don't understand it") ; )
BUT, I'm not sure the point of Molloy's playing is for the punter to get the bits. I feel like the bits are for him and for us. Maybe the music is not for the punter at all... unlike Kylie...definitely more to talk about here...
Anyway, I've enjoyed the discussion, but I'm afraid I'm off and away from the machine for a few days.
Cheerio
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Chrishty - if you think that Joe Sixpack can immediately hear everything there is to hear in this music, you don't know what to listen for. Oh, and no-one's stopping you from spouting uninformed opinions. Please continue!
# Posted on April 10th 2009 by reenactor
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
I know a fiddle player who plays like a saint, trouble is he is a retarded savant, can't play the thing the same twice in a row. Is the skill to vary a tune creativity or is it just a motor skill.
Let's hear a tune that the wonderful llig leahcim wrote, that doesn't sound like every other tune.
Then we can worship.
Some people like to enjoy a work of art without covering it in goo.
# Posted on April 13th 2009 by Fiddleshed
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Dear Irish Mandolin
Your simple request has elicited many replies and very few helpful suggestions. In fact I'd say your post has been hi-jacked.
Just wanted to suggest, in respect of transcribing, I always found Ceili Band versions of tunes to give good basic versions without any fancy stuff. I recommend my students to learn from this sort of material, so they can learn a basic tune and put in their own variations etc.
I learnt a lot of my basic repertoire this way - and then went on to transcribe all of Coleman's recordings - just for fun!
Hope this helps. Sharon
# Posted on April 17th 2009 by The Archivist
Re: fiddle players who use little ornamenation or variation
Sharon the Flute
What do you mean 'all of Coleman's recordings'? Curious to know.
I take it irish Mandolin your not enthused about your 4 projects which is a shame. Is this indicitive of music courses that students choose their subjects on finding the easiest and quickest ways rather than studying music they are excited and interested in? Would hate to have to subject myself to listening and worse still transcribing music i wasn't excited over. Seems like torture to me.
# Posted on April 20th 2009 by Lord Gordon