Most of us have witnessed this at sessions, at some time or the other I'm sure.
I guess it works OK if the tune that the person is about to change into happens to be in a major key: G, D, A, E etc.
But what if it's not? I've heard E-minor, B-minor etc called, but I've never heard anyone shout out A-Dorian, E-Dorian, D-Mix, A-Mix etc. I did once try calling out "A-Mix" to a guitarist , but I just got a blank look ...
.. so afterwards, I elaborated. "Same as A-Major, but with G-Nat instead of G#". Then got another blank look ...
A problem arises because many guitarists seem to think than any given tune must be either "major" or "minor". But that's no use at all, as Min, Dor and Mix all need different chord sets.
Another factor. Many experienced (and otherwise very accomplished) melody players might not actually know (or know, but not think about) what key/mode they were playing in - after all, it's not necessary to know the key/mode when playing the melody.
So what is the answer, sessionites? Your thoughts, please!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I'm not interested in playing with guitar players who play the wrong chords.
I might add though, that many experienced and accomplished strummers might not actually know what key/mode they were strumming in - after all, it's not necessary to know the key/mode when strumming.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
There is no answer. Calling out a key change happens at some of the sessions I play at, but either you understand the mode a tune is in or you don't. I agree most guitar players at sessions do not knoe much about modes, so there's no point in calling out chords, who would do that anyway.
If a guitar player is obviously way off on their chords, I might suggest some chords, but I would be more like to ask them to stop playing since they obviously don't know the tune.
Using your ear and some knowledge of theory goes a long way towards being able to play chords that make sense.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I guess the logic is that, given the root note, the guitarist should be able to figure out what flavor of tune it is. Probably most melody players figure that's enough of a hint, and if you can't figure out where you are from that, it's not going to do you much good anyway. They might be right there. Once you're at the root chord, you should be able to get you bearings pretty quick - if you can't, you probably shouldn't play.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
LLig - but at least the other melody players usually listen to a couple of bars of the new tune, before recognising it an joining in. Not so many guitarists - straight in from the beginning trying to "back" a tune that they've never even heard before.
But I guess that I'm suffering from guitaristphobia at the moment. At one of our local sessions recently I was one of only three melody players there. But there were five guitarists. Yes, FIVE! Probably all playing different chords. It got a little better later in the evening when a good fiddler turned up, but even then I didn't really enjoy it much ...
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I find it very often throws me when someone shouts out the chords or keys e.g. D, E, C, G and B can all sound the same if the first part of the sound is misheard. Personally, I prefer not to have chords or keys shouted out at all, unless going into an obscure key like Eb.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Steve L - but people are often reluctant to criticise someone openly in that way. It's much more common just to "vote with your feet" - that is, walk out of the session - and maybe not come back again unless the situation improves.
Ron P - to clarify, I wasn't talking about calling out the names of individual chords - just the practise of calling out the key/mode of the tune.
learn the tune 1st.
you don't need to be telling the guitarist what to play. maybe if you're a backer yourself & the 2 of you are clashing. & like Joel said, it's a bit silly to think of chords that way.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ah the good ol' days when we had a very, very good jazz guitarist coming out to sessions regularly. He loved the crazy modes and would usually tell me what the were afterwards to confirm. Once a not so good strummer came out and he started calling out the chords "A sus 12 aug 14" "F#min9" etc or whatever I don't know guitar chords
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ron - I played for a while with a songwriter who would get around this problem with a sort of "abel baker charlie" approach, only he used his own equivalents. I don't recall all of them, but I remember one song was in "boy minor" and another was in "egg flat major".
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The Greek modes were not created/discovered or whatever for Irish music. To use them as a classification system for tunes is to force a round peg into a square hole (or the other way around, if you like.) There is no "music theory" for Irish music. It's a melodic tradition that some folks have slapped harmonies onto (sometimes with good results, sometimes not.)
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
'That is, if you know what you are doing. Do you?'
No sorry I haven't a clue. I don't know what I'm doing. I turn up at the session and play Streets of London on all the major keys. For all other keys (including all the other modes) I play Stairway to Heaven through my amp. Dontcha think that every session should have a spare amp for the guitarists? Also If you have a dart board near the session area you can use the score board to chalk up the chords for beginners. Violin bows can be used as pointy sticks to tap on each chord as the tune progresses.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As to the knowledge of the melody, I played with a jazz bass player a few times, just for the fun of it. He had listened to trad, but never learned any tunes, and he did a fantastic job. I was mostly flatpicking guitar with him, and his support really drove me into some new ideas.
If you can listen, you can hear what the tunes are doing - I'd rather play with someone with a good ear and a good imagination than with someone who knows a thousand tunes, and has them filed as chord charts in his head.
Needless to say, the best thing is someone who knows how to listen and also knows tunes, but if I had to choose...
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
its ALL about listening, [and practice/experiance, ] beyond that You just gotta know the tunes!
Keys? there for unlocking doors right? If a guitarist cant figure out what key we are playing in, what chords are appropriate and get them in the right order then I wish they would just shut the feck up!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
But why don't guitarists just play the tune if they aren't able to sort out the chords for strumming? - assuming of course that they actually do know the tune. The guitar is as much a melody instrument as a mandolin or banjo. And it is indeed possible - I know at least two session guitarists in my home town who can do a very fine job of it, and accompany themselves as well.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I say again ..
If you are going to call out keys at all (and the wisdom doing that is of course debatable) it is illogical to call out some keys but not others. Or to call out some keys corrrectly, but call out others incorrectly.
But at least some of you you understood the question ..
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I tried to submit a tune once, but I couldn't convert the guitar tab for Stairway to Heaven into ABC. Now. . . where's me shovel? Ah here it is. Is a mode like a fashion sort of thing? Like if I play sort of an A minor chord do I have to wear leg warmers or sumfink?
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I know who you mean, lazyhound, and I certainly wasn't talking about people like that.
Playing melody on guitar is not a skill that's not seen so often at sessions. As standard guitar tuning is not in fifths, its not so easy to play melody unless you retune to one of the other systems, e.g. DADGAD or "dropped D"
"If they know the tune" That's a joke, in many cases. Pick any very well-known session tune - say - Drowsy Maggie, or something of that kind. Then ask the guitarist if they can hum it to you. If they can't, they don't know the tune.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As someone who cannot read music and plays by ear I admit to regretting having listened to some players shouting out the key in advance as in the past as they are often wrong especially if the key is D mix etc. I would rather they name the tune in advance rather than the key.
This does of course assume they know the name or at least the same name as I may know it by.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I used to play lots of tunes on the guitar, but not at sessions because its too quite and besides the rhythm guitar adds to a session while picking the tunes doesnt [because it cant be heard]. So I either play the fiddle, or back with chords.
Besides, its a lot easier to play tunes on the fiddle than on the guitar! and there is a lot more potential for expression and delicacy or wildness with the fiddle. IMO
You're a grand sport for trying to keep order in the classroom.
& I do understand the dilemma. You might benefit by giving guitarists equal footing with yourself. Not to say you're not humble. You are.
Cheers!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
"If you are going to call out keys at all (and the wisdom doing that is of course debatable) it is illogical to call out some keys but not others. Or to call out some keys corrrectly, but call out others incorrectly."
Greek modes are not "correct" for Irish music. Here are a few reasons why:
There are no Irish tunes that correspond to several of these modes.
There are lots of Irish tunes that don't fit any of these modes (i.e. both c and c sharp, f and f sharp, etc.)
A lot of older players and those influenced by them play third and seventh scale degrees that do not conform to equal temperment. And it's not because they're playing out of tune.
If you're sitting in a session with a guitar player who actually knows the "modes" (enough so that you saying "E dorian" rather than "E" will change what they play) AND they don't already know enough about ITM that they can just figure out what to do by listening to the tune, then I think you've entered the twilight zone. Any half baked guitar player should easily be able to figure out what kind of "D" you're playing in, with Cs, C sharps, Fs ,Fsharps, or all of the above.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Good point, Joel. No matter what instrument you learn you've always got the basic problem of training your fingers to go the right notes on the right strings, buttons, keys or holes.
Even on an instrument tuned in fifths (like the fiddle) it's not entirely straightforward: the fingering for the 1st octave of the scale of Dmaj is 0-1-2-3-0-1-2-3, and for the 1st octave of Cmaj it is 3-0-1-2-3-0-1-2 (0 is an open string) but the 2 isn't in the same place on the D string as it would be in the scale of Dmaj.
The viol - the forerunner of today's fiddle - was a fretted melody instrument tuned similarly to today's classical guitar in 4ths with a 3rd thrown in halfway through. The lute, the viol's plucked equivalent of the time, was a fretted melody instrument tuned very similarly to the viol but with double courses of strings except for the top one or two, and, in its heyday the larger varieties had extra lower courses (sometimes as many as 6 or 7) which gave more scope for accompanying the melody played on the upper courses. The lute wasn't just a melody instrument, it was one of the most important contrapuntal instruments of the time, and this was reflected in its tablature notation.
In modern instruments such as the various boxes and concertinas the fingering generally isn't obvious to the beginner - serious private practice has to be done before the learner is ready to go public.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I can back tunes, after a fashion, on guitar, mandolin family instruments or piano. I don't do it very well, mainly because my hands don't move as quickly or as accurately as my brain, so I end up not playing the chords I mean to play much of the time - I usually stick to playing melody in public. But backing is, for me and, I imagine, any competent backer, an organic process - there's no conscious thought involved, such as 'What mode is it?', 'What chords are in this mode?', 'What chord is formed by the notes in this section of the melody?' etc. You hear the tune, a chord forms in your head and you play it - and if you're good
(or lucky), it's spot on.
Shouting out chord names is a whole different ball game. No matter how good your sense of harmony is, most of us, I would guess, are not thinking of chords in terms of their *names* as we play them - much less when we're playing the tune. in addition to that, I, like many other people, find talking while playing next to impossible. So you're asking a lot of a musician
to 'hear' the chords, convert them mentally to *chord names* (which, unless you have perfect pitch, requires a certain amount of musical 'arithmetic', to relate the intervals to the key you are playing in), and then shout them out, all while keeping the tune going. That would give me a brain haemorrhage. Besides, a lot of melody players know nothing about chords - and why should they?
"I've never heard anyone shout out A-Dorian, E-Dorian, D-Mix, A-Mix etc"
Those wouldn't mean anything to most players. It's only people like us who hang out on discussion boards intellectualising the music who talk about modes (and we know that Irish music only really *approximates* them). Even to those that do know what
they mean, they're not a great deal of use. If you understand modes (not just 'on paper', so to speak, but in a musical context), then you'll recognise them when you hear them anyway.
"I've heard E-minor, B-minor etc"
It would seem far more useful to me to stick to "major" and "minor", when shouting out keys, as it at least gives the backer a chord to start from, thus saving them the task of finding the key after the changeover (anyone who believes that any guitarist who sometimes has difficulty recognising the key of a tune is not worth playing with is missing out on music). In fact, for tunes where the first chord is not the root chord of the mode, it would be more useful to call out the starting chord, e.g. for the Chicago reel, call 'C' (Although this is not the only chord you can start it with, it's probably the safest), even though the tune resolves onto an A minor chord.
There is still the problem of the un-trad-initiated guitarist who, having been given their starting chord, proceeds to put chord changes in inappropriate places or play entirely inappropriate chords, like I-IV-V progressions in 'dorian' tunes, relative minors in 'mixolydian' tunes etc. (Ouch! Why did I have to go and put that thought into my head?). There's little you can do but take them aside and force-feed them trad until they burst.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I have heard people calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions. I have also heard people calling out obscene names to guitarists at sessions. Both have had rather limited success in preparing the guitar player(s) for the next tune in the set.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I've certainly heard specific keys and modes called out... I think its useful, but not necessary to get a single "E" or "G" hint called at the end of a tune if the key/mode is changing. Generally, an accomplished backup player should be able to, within the first couple of notes determine if they know the tune, find the right key and mode, and if they aren't sure they know it, lay back one time through to hear the tune and the changes, then only come in the second time if they know for sure they have the backup absolutely nailed.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As a guitarist with a saintly willingness to play ITM "back-up," I can only say that I am weary of having to shout out at melody players, "wrong B part again rum pot," or "throw in a triplet you lazy crone," or "try the C-natural next time through you white-haired, black-souled coot."
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If anyone I didn't know called out a key change I wouldn't be offended. If they tried to call out every chord change I would be surprised and I'm sure they would make a hash of it! Certainly if they were trying to play the tune at the same time!
Highly amusing!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
During a pipe set in Bb major a guitarist next to me thrashed around in D maj, struggling to get it to work properly. I tried three times to say Bb but fell on deaf ears and all that I got eventually from him were nasty looks. This guitarist was obviously an arse and what he was playing was just plain wrong - but it mystifies me how someone can not hear that he's that wrong and still carry on wrecking the music.
By the way - when talking about keys, one person in our session uses Ducks and Geese to distinguish between D and G and that gets round the problem of not being able to distinguish the words "D" and "G" in noisy environments.
This is a true story. I have a friend who had a girl friend & she was livid. She picked up his guitar & smashed it into splinters.
If you think he had it coming, umhh . . . you might want to consider A minor detail.
~ it was not his guitar, he was borrowing from a friend.
just checking in. Now I'm off to play some G modal tunes.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Funniest post of the year?..........
'That is, if you know what you are doing. Do you?'
No sorry I haven't a clue. I don't know what I'm doing. I turn up at the session and play Streets of London on all the major keys. For all other keys (including all the other modes) I play Stairway to Heaven through my amp. Dontcha think that every session should have a spare amp for the guitarists? Also If you have a dart board near the session area you can use the score board to chalk up the chords for beginners. Violin bows can be used as pointy sticks to tap on each chord as the tune progresses
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
reenactor - If you limit yourself to playing with people who share your fetish (and mine) for knowning the only moderately-relevant minutiae of the application of French interpretations of Greek modes to Irish tunes, you'll miss out on playing with some great players, who don't share our peculiar enjoyment of this arcane stuff. That would be a pity, wouldn't it?
Now, on to the minutiae: would you consider that in ITM the relationship of A mixolydian to A major is different from that of D mixolydian to D major? Or, a different question, that D mix tunes basically feel different from A mix tunes?
That's been my impression, and I think the same holds for other modes and keys. I think this is one of the ways that ITM differs from ordinary classical music, and one of the reasons that Western modal theory doesn't apply as precisely to ITM as some would like to think. I'd be curious to hear others' impressions on this idea...
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If you want to accompany the melody players at an Irish session (or, like me, you were asked to accompany them), then I would strongly recommend a lot of ear training first so you can easily figure out what key the tune or tunes are in. Also, to quote someone else's comments from another discussion on this web site, you should "LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN" to as much of this music as possible in order to understand it better before you try accompanying it. This is equally true no matter what instrument you are using to accompany the melody players. The melody players shouldn't have to tell you the key. You should be able to figure it out on your own by using your ears to listen.
Re: Calling out KEY names to guitarists at sessions
All - Title of this thread should have read:
"Calling out KEYS to guitarists at sessions"
NOT
"Calling out CHORDS to guitarists at sessions"
My error. Typo. Sorry about that
Reenactor - my comment that the scale a A-Mix is the same as the scale of A-Major except that the G is natural instead of sharp isn't my personal opinion - it's a straightforward fact. And yes, of course I know that the modes require a different chordal trreatment - that's the whole point of this discussion!
Lazyhound - as you say, the fiddle displaced the viol. Might one reason be that the tuning in fifths would make the playing of fast passages a little easier? Although both melody playing and chord playing can be executed on any stringed instrument, it's fairly widely accepted that close harmony tuning facilitates chord playing, but at the expense of more difficult melody playing. Particularly true in the case of fast passages.
Chrishty - I'm perfectly well aware that several of the modes don't occur in Irish music. But why complicate things by introducing a red herring? But to spell it out, the ones I am talking about are Ionian (major) Aolian (natural minor) Dorian and Mixolydian. And yes, there are some that use "gapped" scales, but what would that be - maybe 5%?. Certainly, names like "Dorian" are ridiculous, but those are the only terms that we have, and are the ones used in thesession tune db, and on many other websites as well. Playing other than using equal temperament wasn't the subject of this discussion - but it it were, you would be talking about banning guitars (and indeed many other instruments) from sessions as well!
Nobody has yet explained my many guitarists seem to think that they can jump in from the very first note with a tune that they've never heard before. You need to listen through at least once, if you don't know the tune. Many a time I've seen a guitarist screw up by not realising that it was 48-bar tune and going back to the beginning after 32-bars.
Joel - I'd keep away from "Stairway to Heaven", if I were you. Rolf Harris goy a whole stack of hate mail after he tried it. As for "Streets of London", you would be lucky even to get a job cleaning them if you can't even manage a bit of simple abc ...
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hey Oldstrings! Just checked out that video link that you posted! Brilliant!
I'm hoping that Joel might acquire one of those "chord hat" gizmos and turn up at one of my local sessions and show us how it's done ...
... although I think that he might need the super de luxe version of the "hat" (if there is one) in order to back "the Streets of London". The three chord trick simply wouldn't be good enough....
And I'm glad to see that the "cat in the hat" flagged up an "A" chord to be played at the end of bar four of that "good ol' timey toon, Soldier's Joy!" ....
How many times have my ears been jarred by some guitarist playing a "C-Maj" chord at that point? Or even worse, Am
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
To save all the hassle, just stick to 1 chord for the night. That saves you thinking about whether you have the right key, saves the electric fiddle player shouting out chords to you and means that at least for most of the night, you're probably not too far off.. Provided you stick to D or A or G.
If you're calling out chord names, maybe bring a megaphone to make sure you're heard... Particularly when there's a drum kit there already..
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix. You already know the tale of the "High Reel" being accompanied throughout in F#m, which, quote "must be correct because "F#m is the relative minor of A major" [to bemused readers, trust me, this sounds f£ck!ng awful]. Well since this time, fists have been raised, words spoken, regretted and apologized for, opinions acknowledged - all water under the bridge (not literally, you understand). Aside from all that, nothing much has changed...
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If I tried to accompany the "High Reel" with an F# minor chord at the local session, I really don't want to think about what the other musicians (using the term loosely) might say or try to do to me.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Rick - I liked your "High Reel" story (and your update of recent developments.
But I can more than match it.
It concerns an episode that occurred in a ceilidh band that I was playing in many years ago. The tune was Atholl Highlanders - a four part tune, as you probably know. However, we were only playing the first three parts, as it was a 48-bar dance.
This tune is posted here on the session as A-Major, but does not contain the seventh note of the A-Major scale (G sharp), so it arguably might be considered as being an A-Mix or hexatonic tune.
On the final time through the dance, the melodeon player (who was leading the band) instead of playing cdB A3 played ef^G a3.
The fiddle player then took task with the melodeon player, and criticised him for playing a G-sharp at the end when there was no G-sharp anywhere in the tune. The melodeon player replied that the tune was in A-major, and that he could play a G-sharp if he wanted! I can't remember exactly what happened next, but things certainly got very heated!
I kept out of the argument myself, although I thought that the fiddle player was right. We finished playing for the ceilidh without further incident, although the atmosphere continued to be somewhat unpleasant and icy.
At the end of the evening, the fiddle player announced that he was leaving the band as a result of the musical disagreement. I haven't seen him since that night.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Of course, as it is a pipe tune there is an argument he should not have played the G# as a piper would not be able to join in and that is just not fair.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Yes, an interesting one this, Mix.
The first three parts of the tune (Atholl Highlanders) have not a hint of Mix in them; to my ears the final run including G# would be somewhat of a cliche, but otherwise not sound out of place.
It is of course the 4th (unplayed) part which introduces the G natural in bar 4, and gives the tune a most memorable characteristic. Again to my ears, these bars appear to want to remain in key, following the chord sequence A/D/A/E; the G in bar 4 would naturally (pun intended) have been G#, being the major 3rd of E major. The fact that this note did not exist on the pipes explains the odd nature of these tunes (there must be others?).
In summary, I wouldn't really think of this as a Mix tune, although I would definitely not like to have been that melodeon player at the time!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix,
You will note that I already recognised that the pipes do not have a G# and susbsequently it is reasonable to say it shouldn't be added but the tune is in A major nonetheless. I am well aware the tune is Scottish. I live in Scotland, in Perthshire no less, and have had to listen to that bl**dy tune far more often than I would ever care to.
Rick - there are loads of Scottish pipe tunes with the flattened 7th, tunes you would expect to hear a G# in but don't. When fiddlers get their hands on the tune they will often (in their infinite lack of wisdom) choose to sharpen the G and change the tune.
Why is the 4th part unplayed? I hear it all the time.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Rick - as you say (apart from any modal/gapped scale arguments, that run of three notes was something of an awful cliche
No Cause - when Rick said "4th part unplayed", I think he was referring to the incident that I recounted. If you recall, we were only playing the first three parts as it was a 48-bar dance.
The key/mode arguments for this tune are perhaps debatable, though if pushed I would classify the first three parts as being A-Hex and the last part as being A-Mix.
Introducing G-sharps alters not just the tune, but the character of the tune.
Bands are tricky things - it doesn't take much to cause a bust- up, but it requires a huge amount of effort to keep them going!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Re 4th part unplayed - true enough. Should have paid more attention.
A-Hex and A-Mix - give me a break! It is A major. The G natural is an "accidental note" and it resolves back to A major for the end of that part anyway.
"Bands are tricky things - it doesn't take much to cause a bust- up, but it requires a huge amount of effort to keep them going!"
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I can hear it at the session now. Guitarists calling out notes to the melody players. 'It's neither a c# nor a c. It's somewhere between them. Stop playing the G# it's merely implied. Get ready for the modulation . . . C# Phyrgian . . . Now! . . . Lovely!'
Mix, I would agree with the fiddle player in your story above.
I agree about the box player would have sounded better playing hexatonic. But not ever coming around because of the G# is silly, period.
Some of the tunes I favour are ones I've heard by certain uilleann pipers. With them there's this modulation around the c & c# that I love. Try as I might to get my mates to listen to pipers they still play what they have learned from other sources. I'm sure they sound great. But to my ears it's not the version I love.
So people are different. I don't force this bit on them. I keep playing with them. Ever now & then I'll sit someone down in front of te CD player a just say, "Listen"
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Shall we call tunes that could either be major or mixolydian because the 7th is never played, or where the 7th is natural or sharp at different points in the tune, 'transgendered" tunes? Or perhaps say that the tune is in "A Ambiguous?"
Looking at tunes from the perspective of the four most common modes is not a perfect model, but it beats the heck out of just sorting them into two categories, such as major and minor. No one who knows how to accompany this music, despite lumping most of the tunes into modes, would ever think that every tune fell into one mode or another, there is far too much variety, which is part of the fun, and the challenge!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@ No Cause For Alarm
Athough Atholl Highlanders is classified here on the session as an A-Maj tune, many other collections list it as A-Mix.
If you were writing out the music score, you would use a two-sharp key signature (just as you would for any A-Mix tune. Doing it this way, there wouldn't be an accidental anywhere in the score.
Why use a three-sharp key signature is there is no G# anywhere in the tune?
Call it A-Major is you will, but many people would disagree with you - not just me.
Including that fiddler that I mentioned - who was not only a first-rate fiddler, but classically trained (Royal College of Music) as well.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Don't care if he went to the Royal College of Music or not. If it was written out properly it would be written with no sharps on the stave at all as it is a pipe tune!
I am sure plenty of folk would disagree with me but I am also sure plenty would agree with me as well and I am franklly not bothered enough to do a World-wide poll!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Well, No Cause, it might surprise you to know that I am fully aware of the convention of not using key signatures in Piob Mor scores ...
... and its a bit of a low trick to throw in an irrellevance in an attempt to score a point in an argument - you're not a politician, I hope? They just love doing that ...
... but at least you now seem to have retreated from your earlier position that there could only one possible view on the matter.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I was throwing in an irrelevance to attempt to score a point in an argument? You mean like mentioning that your fiddler is a classical violinist? Something like that?
I never contested that there was only one view - just only one right view. I am sure there are a plethora of wrong views, yours not least!
And, no I am not a politician, although I do work for one.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I did try playing Atholl Highlanders in all minor keys once when I was at home by myself. That was enough and I have never tried to play it in minor keys again. I don't play Atholl Highlanders at our local sessions because one of the melody players likes to play it.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Fauxcelt - there is a number you can call to request that this individual is discretely "taken away".
Mix - Following your logic through to its conclusion then you would presumably argue that there are no Scottish pipe tunes that are in A at all. In order to be in A they would have to have no G in them and by default that would mean they were not in A!
How many tunes that are in D major have no C# in them? There must be quite a few.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@No Cause for Alarm
The fiddler in question came from a classical background, but subseqently made a very successful transition into traditional playing. He was a very respected musician then, and probably still is. Its quite normal to cite the opinion of an expert when stating a case in an argument - not devious at all.
It's interesting to see that that I wasn't too far from the truth when I made the suggestion that you might be a politician.
And I now find that you work for a politician!
Which political party would that be then? The Monster Raving Loony Party? Or would it perhaps be the party whose Home Secretary submitted an expense claim for naughty videos?
Well, you certainly talk like a politician - claiming that there can be only one valid view.
If a tune that resolves on A has F#s and C# but no Gs (sharp or otherwise) it *could* be any one of the following:
1) A-Maj
2 A-Mix
3) A-Hex
Its impossible to say which it is with certainty without asking the composer - impossible in this particular case.
However, Atholl Highlanders has G-nats in the fourth part, which would seem to add weight to the A-Mix case, if you consider the four parts as an entity.
Scottish tunes in A-Major? Well, I'm sure there must be plenty - those that started life as fiddle tunes, probably. Interestingly though, the Scottish "major" fiddle tunes seem to be much more commonly set in D-Major.
Regarding the tune: The Bold Deserter, someone was asking about it in a session thread. I remembered that I had it in printed tunebook, so decided that it might be of some help if I posted the tune. My abc transcription was directly from the printed score, so my opinion of the key of it doesn't really come in to it .
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Not possible to ask the composer no, but you could always ask the Duke of Atholl or maybe the PM of his band. I wouldn't trust a piper with a question about keys though.
I certainly do not work for either the Monster Raving Loony Party or "that mob". I live in Perth - I am sure it would be easy enough to take an educated guess.
There certainly are plenty of Scottish tunes in A major. I would disagree with you that the majority of Scottish fiddle tunes in a major key are in D - I would say there were more in A. I have not done a survey of it though.
It is probably fair to say that the majority of true major pipe tunes will be in D rather than A.
I don't think you can consider the Atholl Highlanders as a single entity in terms of the key. If you did then the G nat in the 4th part would not stick out at all to the ear - but it does because you have been hearing it in A major up to that point.
If you play an Emajor chord at any point in the tune then you are accepting the implicit presence of the G#.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to claim a lack of responsibility for The Bold Deserter. We are all responsible for the accuracy of our own submissions to this site whether they are stolen from a printed source or not. But fine - what key would you say the Bold Deserter was in then?
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The Atholl Highlanders is an interesting tune here. The first three parts are in A major, Generally, there is no G in there[ though some versions 'do' have G#] so theoretically it could be In A MIX , but The chord progression uses Emajor. The Gnat in the 4th part becomes a strong blues note as a result, giving the tune an Interesting twist.
It is often the case that tunes encompass a number of keys, so its often simply not possible to definitively name one key as such.
The balance between Pipe tunes in A and D is probably tilted towards A ... there are a few in Bm as well, though that Bm might be a mode?
The bold deserter? Dmajor...or did i miss something?
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
No Cause For Alarm - "I wouldn't trust a piper with a question of keys", you say. if you really think that, why make a reference to pipe scores?
Politician in Perth, eh? Well, (not that you appear to think of me as being educated), but I'll try to hazard an "educated" guess...
Would that be the party that privatised the water industry - an industry which is now inflicting extortionate above-inflation price increases upon us for this essential commodity? Or perhaps the party that's gone a little quiet about independence for Scotland since the bailout of one of its major banks?
An interesting point you made about the playing of an E-major chord - although I can't really sees that as being too much of an issue, E being the fifth (therefore the dominant) of any scale in A.
Its often possible to stray away little from the accepted melody of a trad tune without killing the character of it. But introducing a G# anywhere in this one would spoil it for me. That's why I maintain that a G# is NOT implied.
Plenty of tunes that are submitted here appear in printed tunebooks. I believe that there has been quite a bit of discussion about it, and as I recall the consensus was that creating an abc version from a printed version wouldn't be considered as a breach of copyright. And if it were to be, the publisher would be responsible fro the breach (in this case, Jeremy) - not the submitter of the tune.
I accept no responsibility whatsover for deserters - bold, or otherwise. Leave that to the MPs. Military police, that is - not members of Parliament ..
Submitted here on the session as D-Mix, but plenty of arguments claiming that is doesn't resolve properly on "D", and is therefore a G-Major tune. Or maybe a gapped scale etc etc.
Valid arguments from all parties? ...
.. or is it just all a load of Blarney ....
P.S. The thread was entitled : "A Simple Question!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix - I am sure I made no reference to your education which I am sure is formidable. On this solitary occasion however I believe you have strayed from the path of righteousness.
Pipers don't write key signatures into their manuscript because, without the ability to sharpen or flatten a note (although there are a number of pipers who do do this now) then it would be redundant. This does have the unfortunate effect of making (some) pipers utterly useless in identifying keys.
"Would that be the party that privatised the water industry"
I am sorry Mix but your education is slipping here again. The water industry in Scotland was never privatised and Scottish Water is still publicly owned. I realise that is not the case in the water coming out of your Bristol taps but here in Bonnie Scotland that is one example of our Independence.
In terms of banking bailouts there has been more than one "Scottish" bank bailed out (RBS and BOS). Unfortunately neither is uniquely Scottish and the financial difficulties they have faced are a result of international influences and speculation and the bungling of a certain former Chancellor. From where I am looking the Scottish Government has not gone particularly quiet on the matter of their quest for freedom for Scotland. On the contrary the financial crisis is just one more example of why Scotland may be better off as an Independent Country.
Anyway I am not saying which party I work for and this site isn't meant for politics anyway.
My comments on printed books were not relating to copyright issues. My point is it is our responsibility when posting a tune, whatever the original source, to make sure it was correct. I note you have still not answered my question in that regard though.
The point about the E chord is it is made up of E G# and B. By playing an E chord you are automatically adding a G# to the mix. If the tune was in A mix I would not play an E chord - it would sound awful! Remember the chords in an A mix scale would be:
A, Bm, C#dim, D, Em, F#m, G, A
Really Mix, I thought you were an expert!
Ionannas - the reason I reckon there could be more D major tunes than A major tunes within the piping repertoire is because of the G nat in the scale. Lots of the piping tunes in A will be either in A dorian or A mix. Unfortunately for poor Mix he is tripping up with the example of the Atholl Highlanders which is for the vast majority of the tune in A major. He havers about it by coming up with a key "A Hex".
In terms of the Bold Deserter - D major indeed - it is only Mix who will not admit this because it counters his own argument relating to The Atholl Highlanders.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix, I have to point out that some versions of the AH actually contain G#, not implied, but played. . The pipe scale contains 2 G's; a G nat and another G between Nat and #. This G[nearly]# is used to replace the True G# that is not available, as it is a leading note and not stressed it is , or was, possible to play this G without disturbing the melodic flow. I say was, because the whole tuning of Pipe chanters has changed a lot this century, what was typical of a chanter is not now so. Why this is so ,is to bring pipe music more in line with modern concepts of intonation. Whether this is a good move is debated .
In answer to your question, I would be going out on a limb here and suggest A, but I dont play much in the way of Scottish tunes. But the ones I do are in A.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Blarney pilgrim! very interesting tune chordally, I use two chords, G and D.but I suggest it is in G not D, though of course it can be played in any key. just reading the thread, I have to agree with benhall, that all three parts are in G. I make the point that it is a very old Pipe tune, well before the Uilleann pipes came along and is in fact an old Piob Mhor tune, that being the case the drone would be, G[though as I say the pitch is not fixed.} Ie its a bagpipe tune!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
No Cause For Alarm, thank you for your suggestion that this individual be discretely taken away but I doubt that the Arkansas State Hospital and Asylum for the Insane would accept him because this person is a retired engineer for the local telephone company. He plays button accordion and bodhran as well as thinking he can sing. He likes to play Atholl Highlanders on his accordion. Since the flutes and the fiddles like to join in and help him play this tune, if they take him away, they would probably have to take away the flute and the fiddle players also. If all of these musicians were taken away and locked up, that would kill the local sessions.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The version of Atholl Highlanders which the melody players (button accordion, fiddles, flutes) at our local sessions prefer to play is similar to the version which is in the Tunes section of this web site.
Myself and the guitarist or guitarists use the following chords to accompany the Atholl Highlanders because it sounds good to our ears and it doesn't clash with what the melody players are playing.
First section: A major, E Major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
Second section: A major, D major, A major, E major, A major, D major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
Third Section: A major, E major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
Fourth section: A major, D major, A major, G major, A major, D major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Whilst this is a topic of conversation, Father John MacMillan of Barra is a fine example of an A major pipe tune with no G# actually in the melody, but it still sounds obviously in A major, and a lovely tune to boot.....
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
No Cause - No G# if you play a power chord!
What about that old warhorse, Soldier's Joy. A D-major tune - would you agree?
But I've lost count of the number of times that I've heard a guitarist play a C-Maj chord in the fourth bar. What's your take on that one, then? Soldier's Joy - or Soldier's Sorrow?
Ionannas - if you say that there are versions with G# (or G quarter #), I'll believe you - but hearing it that way would jar my ears!
Incidentally, another tune that's sometimes get played with G# is Green Hills of Tyrol, and that also jars my ears ....
But as you say, the alteration of chanter pitch in recent years also complicates things considerably.
Hey, and what about those mass band affairs that you get at the end of military tattoos?
Well, I don't mind listening to brass bands or Scottish Pipe bands, but the combination of two comes across to me like an unholy caucophony ...
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix, the high G# is part of a triplet that runs up to the high A, . There is no low G#.
Faux, those are pretty much the chords I play.
Soldiers joy is a D major tune, mix, the reason someone would play a C maj chord IMO is because they dont have a clue, or they play it in in G?
Mix, every tune is different, only by listening and experience will the key and chords be clear.
oh and I agree with you re the brass band/bagpipe scenario, but It takes all sorts to make the world.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix - Of course I agree that The Soldier's Joy is in D major. I am well aware of what chords *should* be played and I can also hear why someone would go for the C chord with the tune because it does sound like it should (until you play it!)
On the other hand I hate that tune so much that more often than not I will be deliberately different and play the wrong chord at the end of each line - and I don't mean a C chord - well not just a C chord. It might be an Fmaj7 or a Bbm9th. Really it is wherever my fingers fall in an entirely random way - usually a complete nonsense of a chord!
It may seem childish and petty but I think it makes my point and usually raises the odd smile.
Thanks markt for joining the fray with a great example. Note that Mix still has not answered my question - What key does he think The Bold Deserter is in?
Calling out passing tones for the box player while playing power chords, modulating, & resoving back to the original key on guitar
I guess I'm too late for the discussion regarding key,mode(s) &/or modulation in the 4 part version of Atholl Highlander's.
For what it is worth;
According to Andrew Kuntz ~ Composer is William Rose (What else has he done?) Skinner throws in a single high g# & that leading into a high " a " (perhaps Ionannas' triplet) I copied the bit below. For some reason Andrew's transcription has some natural before a couple of the gs (=g). I removed them because it seems like an error (the note would become gnat nat (f#) On the other hand it may well be the triplet & could thus be (3e/f/^g/|a2
Is there a recording of Skinner?
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/AS_ATT.htm#ATHOLE_HIGHLANDER%27S_FAREWELL_TO_LOCH_KAT
X:1
T:Athole Highlanders Farewell to Loch Katrine, The
M:2/4
L:1/8
R:March
S:Skinner – The Scottish Violinist
Z:AK/Fiddler’s Companion
K:A Mixolydian
(3e/f/g/|a2(ea)|(Aa)(ec/A/)|{f}g2 (dg)|(Bg) (dB/G/)|{^g}a2 (ea)|(df) (ec/A/)|
{d}c/B/c/a/ e/f/e/A/|{A/B/}cAA|
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
This discussion got me thinking on the number of Pipe tunes that are actually in A major, even with the limited options of that composeres are faced with on the Chanter. Here's a smattering of the ones I'm familiar with;
The McNeils of Ugadale
My Own Land
The Conundrum
The Camerons of Shieldaig
79ths Farewell to Gibralter
Alan MacPherson of Mosspark
Calum Beag
The Seige of Delhi
The Braemar Gathering
Loch Maree
Kenny Gillies of Portnalong
The Glasgow City Police Pipers
The Dornoch Links
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Thanks markt123
I have just got back from the Breabach gig in Perth tonight - some cracking pipe tunes in the course of the evening. They didn't play The Atholl Highlanders though!
Definately a band to see if they are in the area at all. Wonderful foursome with a mix of flute and whistle, twin pipes, fiddle, guitar and song.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ah, I've came across a few munters in my time ........ maybe thats the wrong way to put that....
@ No Cause, I saw Breabach on BBC Alba's Horo Gheallaidh programme recently, and was impressed, unfortunately SW Scotland is a bit of a live music wilderness, so we dont get a lot in the way of decent bands coming through......
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@No Cause For Alarm - apologies for delay in getting back to you, but I had to get off to our Monday sesh ... and in a rare good mood I am in too as a result - only ONE guitarist there this time , as opposed to the FIVE that we had there last week ...
Less is more, as they say ....
Well, I'm pleased that you kept your water (although, didn't you lose your electricity?). Not that you have any shortage of water - I got soaked the last time I was up there ...
And yes, I knew about it being more than one bank, and I might have been tempted to mention the Dunfermline BS as well
I note that you are keeping your political allegiance a closely-guarded secret, but I would hazard a guess that your favourite tune might be "Salmond Tails Up the Water"
Soldiers Joy? D-Major for sure, but that wasn't my question. If I were backing this tune, I would have an A chord in bar 4. Would you agree with that? However, a very high percentage of guitarists play a C-Maj chord in that bar. Although C-Maj doesn't clash with the melody notes at that point, it's out of character with the rest of the tune. Musically, correct maybe - but athestically incorrect, IMO.
Example of a tune using the pentatonic scale? Probably the most well-known one would be "Coming Through the Rye". If you are Scottish, you must surely have heard of it. Especially as it also has words written by "the Bard himself"
Key for the Bold Deserter? My answer is the same is the one that you gave in this thread:
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix - Glad your session went well last night. I hope that, of the 5 guitarists, you got the "right one".
Yes we did lose our electricity. 2 main companies up here - Scottish Power (run by Spanish firm Iberdrola) and Scottish Hydro Electric (part of the Scottish & Southern Energy Group - the controlling part!).
Sorry I thought I had answered that question (never mind, I will answer it again ). The correct chord and the one I would play if I was playing it straight would be an A. I remember I used to try to fit a C in there but it sounds poor. I don't think a C would be musically correct - chord choice is not just about the notes in that bit it is about the notes before and after - where the tune has come from and is going to. As the tune is in D major you couldn't play a C there - it hurts.
Anyway as I said, if i was playing it straight I would play an A. More often than not though I would play a C or an Fmaj7 or possibly a Bb aug 2 or just a string of discordant notes and pick a different string of discordant notes for the next line end and so on.
As for Bold Deserter - we did not discuss that tune on the Blarney Pilgrim thread so I can't help but think that you are havering again! While you are at it why don't you come up with *your* keys for markt123's list of A tunes? - that should be interesting.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
How could we have the "best guitarist", when the world's self-styled "best guitarist" lives in Perth? It would be too far him to travel, just for the evening.
In the Blarney Pilgrim thread (when referring to that tune) you said that you were "hedging your bets" - that sounds like "havering" to me ...
And even though I've now given you an example of a pentatonic scale tune (which you should have known anyway) you still haven't answered my question on that point!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I never said the "best guitarist" - I said the "right one" and it was tongue in cheek.
I also have never styled, nor do I think of myself as the "best guitarist" in the World! Far from it - and you know that fine well - hopefully a tongue in cheek comment yourself. I do work hard on my guitar playing and I would hope to be considered half decent but "the best" is some way off yet!
Re Blarney Pilgrim - I did say I was hedging my bets - but as I said I did not think that either a D or G chord worked at that point so you needed to pick another one. What no one did at the time was to say whether they thought "my chords" worked - and I am still suffering the wounds of that! I would welcome your input on that now if you were willing.
I know what a pentatonic scale is Mix - but your question "do I think all pentatonic tunes are Major? is a little unfair a question. Anyway the answer would be no. You can get major and minor pentatonic scales for a start - which instantly rules out that generalisation. As far as "Coming Through the Rye" is concerned I can't remember, off the top of my head, how the tune goes so you will have to wait for an answer on that one.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
My personal opinion, which isn't worth much in all honesty, is that there are some undoubtedly pentatonic tunes, possibly even hexatonic tunes, which will not be pigeonholed into any mode or scale, part of the attraction of these tunes is the ambiguity of the gapped scale.
Notwithstanding this, there are most definately some tunes which are gapped due to the restrictions of the pipe chanter, but are still unashamedly in a certain key, for example John MacMillan of Barra, which I mentioned earlier, which is very much an A major tune, even if it doesn't have a single G# in it.
Possibly, if I looked closer, it might become apparent that the older the tune is the more likely the chances of ambiguity, whereas more recent tunes will be less ambiguous, as a result of Scottish musician/composers being influenced by other instruments, styles of music etc. I'm sure there will be exceptions to this, as always....
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@No Cause For Alarm - when I referred to the world's best guitarist living in Perth, I don't recall mentioning your name in that connection.
But no doubt you will correct me if you believe that I'm wrong on that point ...
... you usually do ...
But for the avoidance of doubt, I was actually referring to a well-known Australian guitarist ...
Regarding "Coming Through the Rye", please see the abc transcription below.
I'm not sure whether or not the abc notation system caters for pentatonic keys. So in this transcription, I've called it G-Major for want of anything better. Indeed, it does have a "majory" feel about it - more than a "minory" one, anyway
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If "Atholl Highlanders" hasn't been beated to death already, I want to throw in a few things about it:
1) the claim was made that the first three parts are in A Major because the chords are A Major and E Major. Who says so? There are no G's whatever in the melody (in the REAL tune at least) in the first three parts, so an accompanyist who puts in E Major chords is actually laying upon the tune, forcing upon the tune, things which do not exist in it.
2) it drives me CRAZY when ignorant accompanyists play the chord change
A Major > D Major > A Major
in the 2nd part where the tune clearly outlines
A Major > B minor > A Major.
Can't these people hear anything?
The melody is going B - D - F# and they're playing a D Major chord over it!
3) ITM players NEVER play the 3rd part right. It has a 2nd ending which differs from the first time through.
By the way, the Los Angeles Scottish (or LA Scots) Pipe Band plays a great 4/4 time version of the Atholl Highlanders. There are various videos of it on YouTube: check it out. A guy in the band came up with that version, and now other pipe bands have copied it.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
About Highland bagpipe tunes in A Major, it's an interesting subject.
Nowadays, with the "High G" on the pipes tuned exactly an octave above "Low G", no tunes have a complete A Major scale on the pipes. There are many hundreds of tunes which SUGGEST the mode of A Major by avoiding the note G. These tunes are not, strictly speaking, in A Major but are in a hexachord. But they are in the key of A Major to the extent that any accompanyist would play A Major chords as the tonic chords.
But in the old days the "High G" on the Great Highland Bagpipes was tuned to a "neutral 7th", that is, a note approx halfway between G and G#.
It's why there are so many tunes which have an A Major feel which nevertheless have G's sticking out here and there. In the old neutral upper 7th scale these G's would not have stuck out so much.
In Piobaireachd, in which having the upper 7th a true G natural was considered necessary, a different fingering for that note was used.
So, in the old days, Highland pipers maintained two different High G's, the one for Ceol Beag/Light Music and the other for Ceol Mor/Piobaireachd/Great Music/Classical Music.
This has been lost over the last half-century and now the Highland pipes play only the one scale for all musics.
But recently more and more Highland pipers have been learning how to use alternate fingerings to play a true High G# and using this in non-traditional tunes as required.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@ Richard D Cook - Regarding your penultimate comment, and the "normal" chording for the second part of AH (the chording that you don't like) the actual notes (Adf Adf) would be the first, third and fifth of a D-Major triad, would they not? So in that respect playing D-Maj would appear to be OK - and yet, it never sounds "quite right".
As to subbing Bm in its place, I'm not so sure that I would like that much either, as the B in the chord would be dischordant with the A in the triplet, would it not?
Possibly the real answer is that this is an old melodic tune, and that guitar accompaniment is not appropriate at all (apart from the pipe drones in the original)
With regard to your second comment - brilliant!
... possibly the best-infomed comment in this thread so far
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
mark - I wouldn't disagree with anything you said then. Great summary.
Mix - Damn you that was crafty!
God I wish I had never joined this discussion. How can we argue for so long about such naff tunes and miniscule details of key or mode. We could be outside living our lives!
but nonetheless:
Richard - "The claim was made that the first three parts are in A major becuse the chords are A major and E major."
I certainly did not make that claim. It is the tune that determines the key and the chords not the other way round. The first three parts are in A major just because they are. Because it is in A major it is reasonable to play an E chord. It is also perfectly reasonable to play an E "power chord" - in other words leaving out the third.
You can try to squeeze the first three parts into some version of A mix but it would just sound wrong. In fact to put it in A mix you would need to play a G chord somewhere.
Ultimately the main chords in A major are A, D and E
and the main chords in A mix are A, G and D (although I would play the D without a third)
Even if you play the E chord without the third you are still playing in A.
And for the record I do play some Bminors in that tune, or at least ways implications of B minors. Some chords (in DADGAD) I might use would be:
"A" - x0790x (A, A, E, A)
"Bm" - x0970x (A, B, D, A)
"D" - x0470x (A, F#, D, A)
"E" - x0690x (A, G#, E, A)
Oh God, I have just added a G# in there - the heavens are coming down! My E also does not appear to have a B note! I guess that is why I put the chord names in quotation marks.
To be fair on the guitarists who are playing A - D - A if you are playing the tune on the pipes then you have plenty of A notes droning away so the notes in that part would be B, D, F# and A. I wonder why they hear a D chord?
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix O'L,
I think your comment about accompaniment is bang on, the same could be said of all talk of keys and modes, I can't imagine most composers of Pipe Tunes would have given it much thought when they wrote the tunes in the first place, they would have been interested in the melody itself, first and foremost.
But it gives us something to argue about at least...
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Yes that is an interesting point, I play Addf in bar 2 of part 2? or |A)4 B/c/d/f | Can you link us to the REAL version which has the B replacing the A?
As regarding the chords Em7 or G as an alternative to E maj, well the G just sounds completely wrong, The Em could fit, if the tune is not played with the G# each time through on the penultimate bar: | 4e/f/^g/a/ e f>ed | c<dB A2 :|
However as far as i am concerned the theory is only there to support the primary source of 'rightness', the ear.
None the less , what chord are you recommending as the right chord instead of E maj? i have tried Bm, sounds wrong, G sounds awfull, Em , maybe but why? still doesnt sound right , while the E sounds right, it fits, and is the commonly used chord for this tune and has always worked for me.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
OK, No Cause - I'll consider myself damned for my craftiness ...
Possibly as cunning as a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on and is now working for the U.N. at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning ....
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Blackadder!
I never even checked that there was actually a B in the part Richard described - I just took his word for it. I await to hear the outcome of thesession.org jury.
Ionannas:
Instead of an E major chord you could play an E chord that just had lots of Es and Bs in it. If you are in standard tuning I suspect 022200 might suffice as an A note never sounds out of place in a pipe tune. Alternatively if you want to add more As then you could play 002200. The real question is why though when you can just play an E?
Ultimately playing a full E chord and allowing G#s into that chordal structure just helps to emphasise the difference of the G natural in the 4th part when it comes along.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I just popped in here because I saw a Blackadder reference. Speaking of which, could you imagine Baldrick the Guitar Player trying to follow this discussion? "Wait sir, I have a cunning plan...what if I just strum D all the time!"
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
uspect I do often use the 'power' chord, though not from a theoretical viewpoint, but becauise it sounds right. But i do also use the 'open' Emaj.
I ues the Power E because I like the A and D up there for A major and sometimes MIx tunes.tunes, Standard 55670X
>>Ultimately playing a full E chord and allowing G#s into that chordal structure just helps to emphasise the difference of the G natural in the 4th part when it comes along.<<
Agree fully, that Low G, just sounds so strong a note in comparison to the majofstructure of the first three parts, and In fact i feel the 4th part is major too, with just the one G note as a 'blues' note, Just as the F in the last bit of Give me your hand. Which is a G major tune even though there are no Fs untill that F nat.
Now theres an interesting tune, no point yelling out the key for that one! you know it and the structure and tune , or you dont.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I suspect I do often use the 'power' chord, though not from a theoretical viewpoint, but because it sounds right. But i do also use the 'open' Emaj.
I use the Power E because I like the A and D up there for A major and sometimes MIx tunes.tunes, Standard 55670X
oh dear, the proof reader forgot to check that post, I have had words with him and he promises me he wont let any more errors like that get through, I hope he is right... ahem.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
On the topic of the Athole Highlanders, I thought I would drag it out further and quote the following from Roderick D. Cannon's "The Highland Bagpipe and its Music" p40 -
"The true key of A major is theoretically not possible, since it requires the leading note, G sharp. In practice, however, this is not a serious limitation. Some tunes in A major happen not to use the G at all. The pibroch "The Little Spree" and the quickstep march "Atholl Highlanders" are of this type...."
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Shock! what a horrid thing to do to such a lovely tune.. I do have an alternative 4th part that i play on occasion for variety from some CD or other that has no G.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@Random_notes, it depends on what version of the 4th part you are talking about.
The version I'm most familiar with, not the version on this site, only has one semiquaver G natural in the 4th part, which is so fleeting it could be considered inconsequential. The earliest setting I have of this version is from a reprint of William Ross' Collection of Pipe Music which was first published in 1869.
It is very similar to the alternative version that ceolachan notated in the comments section of the site version.
I will concede however that this is a pipe version, rather than the one that may be commonly played in sessions, of which my experience is somewhat limited currently. It would be interesting to find out the source for the mustard version and see if it is earlier or later.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
<,could be considered inconsequential>>No No No, thats the best bit of the tune! but the vsn I see C submitted is what I would call a variation. The vsn submitted by Jeremy is closer to how I play it, learnt by ear from somewhere or other a long time ago. but not 1869
How does the Ross setting go for part 2? second bar. i definitely think J's vsn is better, but i do play them both.,
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hmm, at the moment in my data base I have several 2 part vsns, a 6 part vsn but no 4 pt! they all have bar2 of part 2 Bdf, and the short G in part 4. So I guess there is an Irish vsn , a jig and a Scots vsn, , the original march. I know which i prefer!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The longest and most pathetic load of self indulgent gas bagging chicken stroking tripe that the Wombat has attempted to follow.
Rather than crapping on about eternally variable "session etiquette", if you don't wan't people there, they don't cut the mustard or lower the tone then just ask them not to come again. Then weep as the session dies.
Never mind College of Music trained whizzkids or Fred Bloggs
1482 version of whatever. Notation of modal music into western "keys" will always involve compromises. 1482 version notwithstanding, the tonality of the common modern Athol H. is unarguably A so it is totally acceptable to write it in the key of A albeit compromised when we encounter the undeniable and atypical (for pipe music) Gnatural in part 4. This is however, a compromise key of A and in particular does not "imply" G#.
Throw in the usual collection of misfits who miss the point, over-react to ironic jokes,over-react to everything, don't know what irony is,don't know what a joke is, are just professional sh*tstirrers or tedious pontificators and understand why the Wombat is only a very occasional follower of this site.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Play by ear! play by ear! Play by ear! Don't discuss theory! Don't discuss theory! Pretend to be some bearded Luddite who knows nothing of modern technology and adheres to/defends/pontificates about a tradition that is barely half a century old! Deny sheet music! Abhor those who use it! And while you're about it . . .
Take up 164 posts piddling around in the minutiae of whether or not to use a G sharp in some crappy old tune, while arguing the toss about whose theory is correct. While you're at it, make banal references to existing sheet music and stale auld out-of-tune players who you revere because they are Irish and older than you! Also make sure that everything you write is under a false name, and always remind everyone else around here that you know better than they do! All on an Internet site eh? Whist . . . you lot really need to get out more.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Sorry Wallywombat I wrote that before I read your post and I agree. But . . . Wallywombat????? What's happened to personal accountability in the modern age (says I scratching my beard). Actually I don't have a beard.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Oh yeah we're jammin' we're jammin' we're jammin' we're jammin' I hope you like G sharp too. Imagine what the world would be like if the big man were alive today eh? Ah that's made me feel better. Thanks.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Well , lads if you've got nowt constructive to say, and want to get on your high horse about how righteous yous are, then you've come to the right place! , but the wrong thread!, here we just wish to chat earnestly and intelligently in a polite friendly manner about our chosen subject, guitar accompaniment to trad Irish/ Scottish music. Im sure you will find the kind of thing you are looking for somewhere else where so just feck off there eh? smiley to indicate that I could be joking.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
And while we're at it, don't give me a load of ancient bullsxxt about equal temperament and the like. Just a modern excuse for playing out of tune and not being bothered to take care of your instrument. How do you think string players cope with Mozart piano concertos? Do they sit around grumbling about pianos having equal temperament? No they do not. They accept that modern times are modern times (for 'modern' insert 18th Century). Pah!
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hey Joel man,
I gotta say man like I resemble some of your remarks you know. Wombat is like a surname with a long and respected family tradition, man. So it may not be cool to like pick on the name as if its not ok or something.
Also I like think that if it's not your beard you're scratching cos you don't have one then maybe you should like work out what you are scratching.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ionannas or whatever your ancient and vaguely ridiculous name suggesst you to be: xeck off yourself there. I've never been on a high horse. Just trying to expose what an ancient load of bulshxt this site has to offer anyone interested in traditional music.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Whatever you want Ionannas. As long as you remain a bigoted, anonymous and false-named ignoramus in all things musical, I shall never dare disagree with you. Talk about trolling -- I think it was you who first introduced the feck word into this discussion. Best wishes from Joel (my real name. I live and work in St Albans UK as a writer and music teacher).
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hey, steady on guys!
This thread was supposed to be entitled "Calling out KEY names to guitarists at sessions". (Unfortunately, I mis-typed it as: "Calling out CHORD names to guitarists at sessions")
But now it seems to have deteriorated into "Calling other guitarists names"!
Q. I've noticed that threads started by me generally seem to attract a lot of posts (This one currently 177 - now 178).
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Great playing, but all those drums! what use are they when its the tune that matters? Why on earth would they play with all that racket and thumping? [joke!]
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Wow, has this one ever gotten long- winded! I'm not gonna wade in too deep, but here goes. I have been involved in the long (but rewarding) process of becoming a very competent ITM backer (on guitar) over the past eleven years or so. It all started when a close friend of mine, a fiddler, gave me "The Bug" by taking me to my first session. Was I "very competent" from the beginning? Most certainly NOT! I started out going to a beginner/intermediate level session, where I progressed (I
thought) rather quickly. What I didn't know was that sunshine was being blown up my backside by well- meaning people who didn't know any better. When I ran into some more accomplished musicians however, boy, did my perspective change! The incident in question involved:
1) Myself playing the wrong chords on a tune (a mazurka, if I remember correctly)
2) The offended muscian ANGRILY BARKING THE CHORDS OF THE ENTIRE TUNE AT ME (while playing a concertina, no less- no wonder he was angry!)
3)Myself being embarassed, not to mention feeling REALLY uncomfortable.
but the fouth, and most important thing that happened, was that i was forced to COMPLETELY RE- ASSESS my standing in the wonderful world of ITM. I started attending sessions
where the aforementioned concertina (and EXCELLENT fiddle player) & his friends played. I brought my guitar with me, but I also brought with me A TAPE RECORDER. I spent more time at those sessions listening to & recording than I did playing them. Within about 2 years or so, after countless hours of playing along with those session tapes (as well as listening to as much of this music as I could get my hands on), I ran into the same concertina player/fiddler at another session, where he commented on how much my playing had improved! About 2 more years after that, and I was welcomed at their sessions as a regular. Have I "Arrived"? Not at all- I am continually working on improving my backing, to the point where I have now been playing melody (on banjo) for the better part of 7 years, because KNOWING THE TUNES IMPROVES THE BACKING OF THE TUNES. But enough about me, back to the topic. Is "calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions" helpful? It changed my life!! But in the big picture, it will scare away guitarists with thinner skin than myself. If that's your aim, to eviscerate some poor kid who just doesn't know any better (YET), then by all means, bark away. What we usually do at the sessions I attend (and I still go to that beginner/intermediate session, just more for the social aspect now than for the tunes) is discuss what tunes we're going to play BEFORE WE PLAY THEM. If there's a backer there we don't know, we are then able to discuss "chords" or "keys" before we start. If all the tunes in the set are in "G", and said guitarist simply wails away on a G chord for the entire set, at least then they can then be dealt with accordingly. Barking chords almost invariably causes unpleasantness in one form or another (for BOTH parties). Try talking with the person instead, you never know when you might cause a lightbulb to go off, and without any unnecessary nastiness. That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.....
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Good grief jaychoons, just as well you couldn't spare us a dime ...
Just for the heck of intertwining 3 recent threads:
I have a confession to make; my recent discussion regarding the compulsion to join in with a tune was indeed fueled by this very thread - inept chordal harmonization;/accompaniment causes me most personal grief at our session (and trust me, other causes are by no means lacking). I won't even bother offering an example, there being too numerous to mention.
BTW. As a failed guitarist, I couldn't so much as accompany myself home without the sheetmusic.
Joel - surely no one would have a problem if all temperaments were indeed equal?
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Great post Jay!
If every guitarist who showed up at a session had your dedication and commitment to "do it right" , ITM melody players wouldn't resent guitarists. Because they really don't resent guitarists as a class, just the inept ones.
Back to Atholl Highlanders, yes bar 2 of the 2nd part is:
B D F# B D F#
which to me at least means that a B minor chord should be played, not D major. At least in the "real" tune, that is, the traditional Highland pipe tune.
That, I think, is the ONLY chord I've ever called out to a guitarist in 30 years of sessioning, because they always play a D there.
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ok that makes sense, but the version we have here at the session and the one I know goes AdfAdf so perhaps they are expecting, and used to that version? [ They probably think'' why does he play that bit wrong! ? ]
This is the problem I have often had over the years; Newbie guitarists with a few yrs experience in trad , who know enough to be dangerous, can insist on substituting relative majors instead of the relevant minor, which alters the whole harmonic and chordal structure/progression. This always throws me off , I hate it . From years of improvisation I listen carefully to the guitar and relate what I am playing to the chords underneath. Of course thats fine in a jazz/improvisation/ free jam situation but in trad it creates this split between the two instruments. All of a sudden there is no cohesion between the chord and melody. it feels so amateurish, the guitarist is not listening to the melody but imposing their own chord. This is the same type of guitarist who often wont even notice a key change! or a tune change! The sort who gives the guitar a bad name in trad. Needless to say they dont get 'the call'.
I will stress the 2 most important things for a backing guitar player is to listen intently to the tune, and to listen to lots of traditional music.
Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Most of us have witnessed this at sessions, at some time or the other I'm sure.
I guess it works OK if the tune that the person is about to change into happens to be in a major key: G, D, A, E etc.
But what if it's not? I've heard E-minor, B-minor etc called, but I've never heard anyone shout out A-Dorian, E-Dorian, D-Mix, A-Mix etc. I did once try calling out "A-Mix" to a guitarist , but I just got a blank look ...
.. so afterwards, I elaborated. "Same as A-Major, but with G-Nat instead of G#". Then got another blank look ...
A problem arises because many guitarists seem to think than any given tune must be either "major" or "minor". But that's no use at all, as Min, Dor and Mix all need different chord sets.
Another factor. Many experienced (and otherwise very accomplished) melody players might not actually know (or know, but not think about) what key/mode they were playing in - after all, it's not necessary to know the key/mode when playing the melody.
So what is the answer, sessionites? Your thoughts, please!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I'm not interested in playing with guitar players who play the wrong chords.
I might add though, that many experienced and accomplished strummers might not actually know what key/mode they were strumming in - after all, it's not necessary to know the key/mode when strumming.
It's called strumming by ear.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
There is no answer. Calling out a key change happens at some of the sessions I play at, but either you understand the mode a tune is in or you don't. I agree most guitar players at sessions do not knoe much about modes, so there's no point in calling out chords, who would do that anyway.
If a guitar player is obviously way off on their chords, I might suggest some chords, but I would be more like to ask them to stop playing since they obviously don't know the tune.
Using your ear and some knowledge of theory goes a long way towards being able to play chords that make sense.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I guess the logic is that, given the root note, the guitarist should be able to figure out what flavor of tune it is. Probably most melody players figure that's enough of a hint, and if you can't figure out where you are from that, it's not going to do you much good anyway. They might be right there. Once you're at the root chord, you should be able to get you bearings pretty quick - if you can't, you probably shouldn't play.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Oh, look, a cross-post - popular topic.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
LLig - but at least the other melody players usually listen to a couple of bars of the new tune, before recognising it an joining in. Not so many guitarists - straight in from the beginning trying to "back" a tune that they've never even heard before.
But I guess that I'm suffering from guitaristphobia at the moment. At one of our local sessions recently I was one of only three melody players there. But there were five guitarists. Yes, FIVE! Probably all playing different chords. It got a little better later in the evening when a good fiddler turned up, but even then I didn't really enjoy it much ...
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
A guitar owner who doesn't know what he's doing and needs to be told to stop playing is not a guitarist. Nothing can make an empty bag stand up.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Steve L
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I find it very often throws me when someone shouts out the chords or keys e.g. D, E, C, G and B can all sound the same if the first part of the sound is misheard. Personally, I prefer not to have chords or keys shouted out at all, unless going into an obscure key like Eb.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ron P
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Steve L - but people are often reluctant to criticise someone openly in that way. It's much more common just to "vote with your feet" - that is, walk out of the session - and maybe not come back again unless the situation improves.
Ron P - to clarify, I wasn't talking about calling out the names of individual chords - just the practise of calling out the key/mode of the tune.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
' but I've never heard anyone shout out A-Dorian, E-Dorian, D-Mix, A-Mix etc.'
Probably because they are not chords?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names
learn the tune 1st.
you don't need to be telling the guitarist what to play. maybe if you're a backer yourself & the 2 of you are clashing. & like Joel said, it's a bit silly to think of chords that way.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ah the good ol' days when we had a very, very good jazz guitarist coming out to sessions regularly. He loved the crazy modes and would usually tell me what the were afterwards to confirm. Once a not so good strummer came out and he started calling out the chords "A sus 12 aug 14" "F#min9" etc or whatever I don't know guitar chords
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
That's right, they're not Joel.
They are keys, not chords. But If you KNOW the key/mode, you should ALSO know what chords are appropriate to that key/mode.
That is, if you know what you are doing. Do you?
"Silly" you say, Random - you also seemed to have totally misunderstood the question ...
But I do agree with you about knowing the tune.
But that is also my point. Many guitarists at sessions have no knowlege of the melody at all.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ron - I played for a while with a songwriter who would get around this problem with a sort of "abel baker charlie" approach, only he used his own equivalents. I don't recall all of them, but I remember one song was in "boy minor" and another was in "egg flat major".
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The Greek modes were not created/discovered or whatever for Irish music. To use them as a classification system for tunes is to force a round peg into a square hole (or the other way around, if you like.) There is no "music theory" for Irish music. It's a melodic tradition that some folks have slapped harmonies onto (sometimes with good results, sometimes not.)
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Chrishty
a bit of tongue in cheek
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
'That is, if you know what you are doing. Do you?'
No sorry I haven't a clue. I don't know what I'm doing. I turn up at the session and play Streets of London on all the major keys. For all other keys (including all the other modes) I play Stairway to Heaven through my amp. Dontcha think that every session should have a spare amp for the guitarists? Also If you have a dart board near the session area you can use the score board to chalk up the chords for beginners. Violin bows can be used as pointy sticks to tap on each chord as the tune progresses.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As to the knowledge of the melody, I played with a jazz bass player a few times, just for the fun of it. He had listened to trad, but never learned any tunes, and he did a fantastic job. I was mostly flatpicking guitar with him, and his support really drove me into some new ideas.
If you can listen, you can hear what the tunes are doing - I'd rather play with someone with a good ear and a good imagination than with someone who knows a thousand tunes, and has them filed as chord charts in his head.
Needless to say, the best thing is someone who knows how to listen and also knows tunes, but if I had to choose...
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Joel - if you are a competent ITM session gutarist, long may you prosper.
But IF you are, how came that you made such a ridiculous and ill-informed comment?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
humour
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Yeah sorry about that. What I meant to say was that the electric violin players should be able to use the amps too.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
its ALL about listening, [and practice/experiance, ] beyond that You just gotta know the tunes!
If a guitarist cant figure out what key we are playing in, what chords are appropriate and get them in the right order then I wish they would just shut the feck up!
Keys? there for unlocking doors right?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
are there any recording, anyone can think of, where a fiddler (ITM) does their own harmonies? Lots of drones & double stops.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Not always ITM, but anything by Nancy Kerr.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Joel - the standard advice for someone who has just dug a hole for themself is not to dig themself in any deeper ...
.. so I suggest that you stop digging ...
... In any case, a knowlege of keys/modes is essential to anyone submitting a tune to this site ...
.. but I guess that you might not know that, since you don't appear to have ever submitted a single tune.
It's easy to knock - but to do something constructive requires effort - I suggest that you try it someday.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
definitely laughing out loud.
thank you both!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
But why don't guitarists just play the tune if they aren't able to sort out the chords for strumming? - assuming of course that they actually do know the tune. The guitar is as much a melody instrument as a mandolin or banjo. And it is indeed possible - I know at least two session guitarists in my home town who can do a very fine job of it, and accompany themselves as well.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I say again ..
If you are going to call out keys at all (and the wisdom doing that is of course debatable) it is illogical to call out some keys but not others. Or to call out some keys corrrectly, but call out others incorrectly.
But at least some of you you understood the question ..
... maybe I should be thankful for that ...
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I tried to submit a tune once, but I couldn't convert the guitar tab for Stairway to Heaven into ABC. Now. . . where's me shovel? Ah here it is. Is a mode like a fashion sort of thing? Like if I play sort of an A minor chord do I have to wear leg warmers or sumfink?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Time to revisit the experts in this field:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexIdm0awwo
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I'm getting round to thinking that "chord" should have been left out of the title of this discussion
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I know who you mean, lazyhound, and I certainly wasn't talking about people like that.
Playing melody on guitar is not a skill that's not seen so often at sessions. As standard guitar tuning is not in fifths, its not so easy to play melody unless you retune to one of the other systems, e.g. DADGAD or "dropped D"
"If they know the tune" That's a joke, in many cases. Pick any very well-known session tune - say - Drowsy Maggie, or something of that kind. Then ask the guitarist if they can hum it to you. If they can't, they don't know the tune.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As someone who cannot read music and plays by ear I admit to regretting having listened to some players shouting out the key in advance as in the past as they are often wrong especially if the key is D mix etc. I would rather they name the tune in advance rather than the key.
This does of course assume they know the name or at least the same name as I may know it by.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I used to play lots of tunes on the guitar, but not at sessions because its too quite and besides the rhythm guitar adds to a session while picking the tunes doesnt [because it cant be heard]. So I either play the fiddle, or back with chords.
Besides, its a lot easier to play tunes on the fiddle than on the guitar! and there is a lot more potential for expression and delicacy or wildness with the fiddle. IMO
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Is it only easy to play tunes on instruments tuned in fifths? What about whistles and flutes etc.? I dropped a D once. It hurt my foot.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Thanks oldstrings. I nearly wet myself laughing at that video! Oh hang on I actually did wet myself. I'll be back once I've cleaned up.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Thanks Mix ~
You're a grand sport for trying to keep order in the classroom.
& I do understand the dilemma. You might benefit by giving guitarists equal footing with yourself. Not to say you're not humble. You are.
Cheers!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
"If you are going to call out keys at all (and the wisdom doing that is of course debatable) it is illogical to call out some keys but not others. Or to call out some keys corrrectly, but call out others incorrectly."
Greek modes are not "correct" for Irish music. Here are a few reasons why:
There are no Irish tunes that correspond to several of these modes.
There are lots of Irish tunes that don't fit any of these modes (i.e. both c and c sharp, f and f sharp, etc.)
A lot of older players and those influenced by them play third and seventh scale degrees that do not conform to equal temperment. And it's not because they're playing out of tune.
If you're sitting in a session with a guitar player who actually knows the "modes" (enough so that you saying "E dorian" rather than "E" will change what they play) AND they don't already know enough about ITM that they can just figure out what to do by listening to the tune, then I think you've entered the twilight zone. Any half baked guitar player should easily be able to figure out what kind of "D" you're playing in, with Cs, C sharps, Fs ,Fsharps, or all of the above.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Christy, I see you've brought your own shovel. That's a fine tool you have there.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Good point, Joel. No matter what instrument you learn you've always got the basic problem of training your fingers to go the right notes on the right strings, buttons, keys or holes.
Even on an instrument tuned in fifths (like the fiddle) it's not entirely straightforward: the fingering for the 1st octave of the scale of Dmaj is 0-1-2-3-0-1-2-3, and for the 1st octave of Cmaj it is 3-0-1-2-3-0-1-2 (0 is an open string) but the 2 isn't in the same place on the D string as it would be in the scale of Dmaj.
The viol - the forerunner of today's fiddle - was a fretted melody instrument tuned similarly to today's classical guitar in 4ths with a 3rd thrown in halfway through. The lute, the viol's plucked equivalent of the time, was a fretted melody instrument tuned very similarly to the viol but with double courses of strings except for the top one or two, and, in its heyday the larger varieties had extra lower courses (sometimes as many as 6 or 7) which gave more scope for accompanying the melody played on the upper courses. The lute wasn't just a melody instrument, it was one of the most important contrapuntal instruments of the time, and this was reflected in its tablature notation.
In modern instruments such as the various boxes and concertinas the fingering generally isn't obvious to the beginner - serious private practice has to be done before the learner is ready to go public.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Thank you. I pride myself on having a useful tool. And by having, I mean being. And by Useful, I mean useless.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Cross post - that thank you goes out to Random.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I can back tunes, after a fashion, on guitar, mandolin family instruments or piano. I don't do it very well, mainly because my hands don't move as quickly or as accurately as my brain, so I end up not playing the chords I mean to play much of the time - I usually stick to playing melody in public. But backing is, for me and, I imagine, any competent backer, an organic process - there's no conscious thought involved, such as 'What mode is it?', 'What chords are in this mode?', 'What chord is formed by the notes in this section of the melody?' etc. You hear the tune, a chord forms in your head and you play it - and if you're good
(or lucky), it's spot on.
Shouting out chord names is a whole different ball game. No matter how good your sense of harmony is, most of us, I would guess, are not thinking of chords in terms of their *names* as we play them - much less when we're playing the tune. in addition to that, I, like many other people, find talking while playing next to impossible. So you're asking a lot of a musician
to 'hear' the chords, convert them mentally to *chord names* (which, unless you have perfect pitch, requires a certain amount of musical 'arithmetic', to relate the intervals to the key you are playing in), and then shout them out, all while keeping the tune going. That would give me a brain haemorrhage. Besides, a lot of melody players know nothing about chords - and why should they?
"I've never heard anyone shout out A-Dorian, E-Dorian, D-Mix, A-Mix etc"
Those wouldn't mean anything to most players. It's only people like us who hang out on discussion boards intellectualising the music who talk about modes (and we know that Irish music only really *approximates* them). Even to those that do know what
they mean, they're not a great deal of use. If you understand modes (not just 'on paper', so to speak, but in a musical context), then you'll recognise them when you hear them anyway.
"I've heard E-minor, B-minor etc"
It would seem far more useful to me to stick to "major" and "minor", when shouting out keys, as it at least gives the backer a chord to start from, thus saving them the task of finding the key after the changeover (anyone who believes that any guitarist who sometimes has difficulty recognising the key of a tune is not worth playing with is missing out on music). In fact, for tunes where the first chord is not the root chord of the mode, it would be more useful to call out the starting chord, e.g. for the Chicago reel, call 'C' (Although this is not the only chord you can start it with, it's probably the safest), even though the tune resolves onto an A minor chord.
There is still the problem of the un-trad-initiated guitarist who, having been given their starting chord, proceeds to put chord changes in inappropriate places or play entirely inappropriate chords, like I-IV-V progressions in 'dorian' tunes, relative minors in 'mixolydian' tunes etc. (Ouch! Why did I have to go and put that thought into my head?). There's little you can do but take them aside and force-feed them trad until they burst.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I have heard people calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions. I have also heard people calling out obscene names to guitarists at sessions. Both have had rather limited success in preparing the guitar player(s) for the next tune in the set.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I've certainly heard specific keys and modes called out... I think its useful, but not necessary to get a single "E" or "G" hint called at the end of a tune if the key/mode is changing. Generally, an accomplished backup player should be able to, within the first couple of notes determine if they know the tune, find the right key and mode, and if they aren't sure they know it, lay back one time through to hear the tune and the changes, then only come in the second time if they know for sure they have the backup absolutely nailed.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As a guitarist with a saintly willingness to play ITM "back-up," I can only say that I am weary of having to shout out at melody players, "wrong B part again rum pot," or "throw in a triplet you lazy crone," or "try the C-natural next time through you white-haired, black-souled coot."
Ah, family.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If anyone I didn't know called out a key change I wouldn't be offended. If they tried to call out every chord change I would be surprised and I'm sure they would make a hash of it! Certainly if they were trying to play the tune at the same time!
Highly amusing!
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Rob
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
During a pipe set in Bb major a guitarist next to me thrashed around in D maj, struggling to get it to work properly. I tried three times to say Bb but fell on deaf ears and all that I got eventually from him were nasty looks. This guitarist was obviously an arse and what he was playing was just plain wrong - but it mystifies me how someone can not hear that he's that wrong and still carry on wrecking the music.
By the way - when talking about keys, one person in our session uses Ducks and Geese to distinguish between D and G and that gets round the problem of not being able to distinguish the words "D" and "G" in noisy environments.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Calling out guitarists at session
This is a true story. I have a friend who had a girl friend & she was livid. She picked up his guitar & smashed it into splinters.
If you think he had it coming, umhh . . . you might want to consider A minor detail.
~ it was not his guitar, he was borrowing from a friend.
just checking in. Now I'm off to play some G modal tunes.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hi
Ragamans post (1st paragraph)....has nailed this thread for me anyway .....game over
Excellent post Ragaman
pkev
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by pkev
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Funniest post of the year?..........
'That is, if you know what you are doing. Do you?'
No sorry I haven't a clue. I don't know what I'm doing. I turn up at the session and play Streets of London on all the major keys. For all other keys (including all the other modes) I play Stairway to Heaven through my amp. Dontcha think that every session should have a spare amp for the guitarists? Also If you have a dart board near the session area you can use the score board to chalk up the chords for beginners. Violin bows can be used as pointy sticks to tap on each chord as the tune progresses
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Jwalkert
Mr Brown can moo. Can you?
What do you mean by funniest? I was being serious.
'That is, if you know what you are doing. Do you?'
Come on Mix O'L you were asking for it.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Again NEW Pure Drop I ask you: where can I get me some of that crazy shxt man? My crack pipe is almost empty.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Umm, I call out modes. I try to play with people that understand modes.
Also, A mix is NOT "A major, but with a G natural". That might be the scale, but modes function competely differently than a major key.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
'I try to play with people that (sic) understand modes'
Why do you only try reenactor? Maybe you're not applying yourself enough . . .
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
reenactor - If you limit yourself to playing with people who share your fetish (and mine) for knowning the only moderately-relevant minutiae of the application of French interpretations of Greek modes to Irish tunes, you'll miss out on playing with some great players, who don't share our peculiar enjoyment of this arcane stuff. That would be a pity, wouldn't it?
Now, on to the minutiae: would you consider that in ITM the relationship of A mixolydian to A major is different from that of D mixolydian to D major? Or, a different question, that D mix tunes basically feel different from A mix tunes?
That's been my impression, and I think the same holds for other modes and keys. I think this is one of the ways that ITM differs from ordinary classical music, and one of the reasons that Western modal theory doesn't apply as precisely to ITM as some would like to think. I'd be curious to hear others' impressions on this idea...
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Calling out modes to guitarists
When we talk (or write) about music ~ that's theory.
When we play music it is a different language.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If you want to accompany the melody players at an Irish session (or, like me, you were asked to accompany them), then I would strongly recommend a lot of ear training first so you can easily figure out what key the tune or tunes are in. Also, to quote someone else's comments from another discussion on this web site, you should "LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN" to as much of this music as possible in order to understand it better before you try accompanying it. This is equally true no matter what instrument you are using to accompany the melody players. The melody players shouldn't have to tell you the key. You should be able to figure it out on your own by using your ears to listen.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Calling out KEY names to guitarists at sessions
All - Title of this thread should have read:
"Calling out KEYS to guitarists at sessions"
NOT
"Calling out CHORDS to guitarists at sessions"
My error. Typo. Sorry about that
Reenactor - my comment that the scale a A-Mix is the same as the scale of A-Major except that the G is natural instead of sharp isn't my personal opinion - it's a straightforward fact. And yes, of course I know that the modes require a different chordal trreatment - that's the whole point of this discussion!
Lazyhound - as you say, the fiddle displaced the viol. Might one reason be that the tuning in fifths would make the playing of fast passages a little easier? Although both melody playing and chord playing can be executed on any stringed instrument, it's fairly widely accepted that close harmony tuning facilitates chord playing, but at the expense of more difficult melody playing. Particularly true in the case of fast passages.
Chrishty - I'm perfectly well aware that several of the modes don't occur in Irish music. But why complicate things by introducing a red herring? But to spell it out, the ones I am talking about are Ionian (major) Aolian (natural minor) Dorian and Mixolydian. And yes, there are some that use "gapped" scales, but what would that be - maybe 5%?. Certainly, names like "Dorian" are ridiculous, but those are the only terms that we have, and are the ones used in thesession tune db, and on many other websites as well. Playing other than using equal temperament wasn't the subject of this discussion - but it it were, you would be talking about banning guitars (and indeed many other instruments) from sessions as well!
Nobody has yet explained my many guitarists seem to think that they can jump in from the very first note with a tune that they've never heard before. You need to listen through at least once, if you don't know the tune. Many a time I've seen a guitarist screw up by not realising that it was 48-bar tune and going back to the beginning after 32-bars.
Joel - I'd keep away from "Stairway to Heaven", if I were you. Rolf Harris goy a whole stack of hate mail after he tried it. As for "Streets of London", you would be lucky even to get a job cleaning them if you can't even manage a bit of simple abc ...
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hey Oldstrings! Just checked out that video link that you posted! Brilliant!
I'm hoping that Joel might acquire one of those "chord hat" gizmos and turn up at one of my local sessions and show us how it's done ...
... although I think that he might need the super de luxe version of the "hat" (if there is one) in order to back "the Streets of London". The three chord trick simply wouldn't be good enough....
And I'm glad to see that the "cat in the hat" flagged up an "A" chord to be played at the end of bar four of that "good ol' timey toon, Soldier's Joy!" ....
How many times have my ears been jarred by some guitarist playing a "C-Maj" chord at that point? Or even worse, Am
I've lost count .... -:/
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I like the hat as well. Can you get underpants like that?
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by gam
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I think that good old J.S.B. is laughing like hell in his well-tempered grave!
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by deFacto
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
To save all the hassle, just stick to 1 chord for the night. That saves you thinking about whether you have the right key, saves the electric fiddle player shouting out chords to you and means that at least for most of the night, you're probably not too far off.. Provided you stick to D or A or G.
If you're calling out chord names, maybe bring a megaphone to make sure you're heard... Particularly when there's a drum kit there already..
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Rubadubdub
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If you play flute or whistle no-one expects you to call out anything. Works for me.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Hammurabi Breathnach
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix. You already know the tale of the "High Reel" being accompanied throughout in F#m, which, quote "must be correct because "F#m is the relative minor of A major" [to bemused readers, trust me, this sounds f£ck!ng awful]. Well since this time, fists have been raised, words spoken, regretted and apologized for, opinions acknowledged - all water under the bridge (not literally, you understand). Aside from all that, nothing much has changed...
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Must have been interesting when they got to the G at the end... all of a sudden it's the flamenco reel...
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If I tried to accompany the "High Reel" with an F# minor chord at the local session, I really don't want to think about what the other musicians (using the term loosely) might say or try to do to me.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I always play guitar in the pie a la mode.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by dafydd
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Rick - I liked your "High Reel" story (and your update of recent developments.
But I can more than match it.
It concerns an episode that occurred in a ceilidh band that I was playing in many years ago. The tune was Atholl Highlanders - a four part tune, as you probably know. However, we were only playing the first three parts, as it was a 48-bar dance.
This tune is posted here on the session as A-Major, but does not contain the seventh note of the A-Major scale (G sharp), so it arguably might be considered as being an A-Mix or hexatonic tune.
On the final time through the dance, the melodeon player (who was leading the band) instead of playing cdB A3 played ef^G a3.
The fiddle player then took task with the melodeon player, and criticised him for playing a G-sharp at the end when there was no G-sharp anywhere in the tune. The melodeon player replied that the tune was in A-major, and that he could play a G-sharp if he wanted! I can't remember exactly what happened next, but things certainly got very heated!
I kept out of the argument myself, although I thought that the fiddle player was right. We finished playing for the ceilidh without further incident, although the atmosphere continued to be somewhat unpleasant and icy.
At the end of the evening, the fiddle player announced that he was leaving the band as a result of the musical disagreement. I haven't seen him since that night.
All this over the playing of just one G-sharp!
... And a very good fiddle player he was, too!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
That is a bit extreme! Of course the tune is in A major and the G# is implied.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Of course, as it is a pipe tune there is an argument he should not have played the G# as a piper would not be able to join in and that is just not fair.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@No Cause For Alarm
I disagree - G # is NOT "implied"
Atholl Highlanders (although played at ITM sessions) began its life as a Scottish Piob Mor Tune.
No G# on that instrument ...
It is possible to be musically correct, and yet to be asthetically incorrect. It's a hard thing to a explain ...
That was the essence of our fiddle player's argument, and as I already said, I believe that he was right.
There are plent of heaxtonic and pentatonic tunes that you could add notes to and convert to standard major, should you choose to do so.
But would it be wise to do so? Probably not.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Dafydd, if you always play guitar in the pie a la mode, does that mean you use only 3.1415 chords?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Yes, an interesting one this, Mix.
The first three parts of the tune (Atholl Highlanders) have not a hint of Mix in them; to my ears the final run including G# would be somewhat of a cliche, but otherwise not sound out of place.
It is of course the 4th (unplayed) part which introduces the G natural in bar 4, and gives the tune a most memorable characteristic. Again to my ears, these bars appear to want to remain in key, following the chord sequence A/D/A/E; the G in bar 4 would naturally (pun intended) have been G#, being the major 3rd of E major. The fact that this note did not exist on the pipes explains the odd nature of these tunes (there must be others?).
In summary, I wouldn't really think of this as a Mix tune, although I would definitely not like to have been that melodeon player at the time!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix,
You will note that I already recognised that the pipes do not have a G# and susbsequently it is reasonable to say it shouldn't be added but the tune is in A major nonetheless. I am well aware the tune is Scottish. I live in Scotland, in Perthshire no less, and have had to listen to that bl**dy tune far more often than I would ever care to.
Rick - there are loads of Scottish pipe tunes with the flattened 7th, tunes you would expect to hear a G# in but don't. When fiddlers get their hands on the tune they will often (in their infinite lack of wisdom) choose to sharpen the G and change the tune.
Why is the 4th part unplayed? I hear it all the time.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
You should hear the "minor" version of the tune. Fun the first time and then dreadful every single time after that!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Rick - as you say (apart from any modal/gapped scale arguments, that run of three notes was something of an awful cliche
No Cause - when Rick said "4th part unplayed", I think he was referring to the incident that I recounted. If you recall, we were only playing the first three parts as it was a 48-bar dance.
The key/mode arguments for this tune are perhaps debatable, though if pushed I would classify the first three parts as being A-Hex and the last part as being A-Mix.
Introducing G-sharps alters not just the tune, but the character of the tune.
Bands are tricky things - it doesn't take much to cause a bust- up, but it requires a huge amount of effort to keep them going!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Re 4th part unplayed - true enough. Should have paid more attention.
A-Hex and A-Mix - give me a break! It is A major. The G natural is an "accidental note" and it resolves back to A major for the end of that part anyway.
"Bands are tricky things - it doesn't take much to cause a bust- up, but it requires a huge amount of effort to keep them going!"
Never a truer word said!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I can hear it at the session now. Guitarists calling out notes to the melody players. 'It's neither a c# nor a c. It's somewhere between them. Stop playing the G# it's merely implied. Get ready for the modulation . . . C# Phyrgian . . . Now! . . . Lovely!'
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
No cause for alarm, I think you describe J. Scott Skinner.
A fiddler who sneaks in the G#
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
**
Mix, I would agree with the fiddle player in your story above.
I agree about the box player would have sounded better playing hexatonic. But not ever coming around because of the G# is silly, period.
Some of the tunes I favour are ones I've heard by certain uilleann pipers. With them there's this modulation around the c & c# that I love. Try as I might to get my mates to listen to pipers they still play what they have learned from other sources. I'm sure they sound great. But to my ears it's not the version I love.
So people are different. I don't force this bit on them. I keep playing with them. Ever now & then I'll sit someone down in front of te CD player a just say, "Listen"
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Shall we call tunes that could either be major or mixolydian because the 7th is never played, or where the 7th is natural or sharp at different points in the tune, 'transgendered" tunes? Or perhaps say that the tune is in "A Ambiguous?"
Looking at tunes from the perspective of the four most common modes is not a perfect model, but it beats the heck out of just sorting them into two categories, such as major and minor. No one who knows how to accompany this music, despite lumping most of the tunes into modes, would ever think that every tune fell into one mode or another, there is far too much variety, which is part of the fun, and the challenge!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Maybe we should just call out the notes and let the guitarists figure the rest out for themselves ..
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Sorry Random - I had not even read your post - great minds think alike indeed!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ach just give 'em the sheet music.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@ No Cause For Alarm
Athough Atholl Highlanders is classified here on the session as an A-Maj tune, many other collections list it as A-Mix.
If you were writing out the music score, you would use a two-sharp key signature (just as you would for any A-Mix tune. Doing it this way, there wouldn't be an accidental anywhere in the score.
Why use a three-sharp key signature is there is no G# anywhere in the tune?
Call it A-Major is you will, but many people would disagree with you - not just me.
Including that fiddler that I mentioned - who was not only a first-rate fiddler, but classically trained (Royal College of Music) as well.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out
I said I agreed with said fiddlers' aesthetic taste.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Don't care if he went to the Royal College of Music or not. If it was written out properly it would be written with no sharps on the stave at all as it is a pipe tune!
I am sure plenty of folk would disagree with me but I am also sure plenty would agree with me as well and I am franklly not bothered enough to do a World-wide poll!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
So you did, Random.
Well, so that's at least three of us in agreement then - you, me and that fiddler.
.. the A Majorettes can think whatever they like ...
The Random (Notes) Jig has two sharps, but at least that one is an unquestionable D-Major tune ...
... have you learnt it yet, BTW?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Well, No Cause, it might surprise you to know that I am fully aware of the convention of not using key signatures in Piob Mor scores ...
... and its a bit of a low trick to throw in an irrellevance in an attempt to score a point in an argument - you're not a politician, I hope? They just love doing that ...
... but at least you now seem to have retreated from your earlier position that there could only one possible view on the matter.
So I guess that's something ...
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I was throwing in an irrelevance to attempt to score a point in an argument? You mean like mentioning that your fiddler is a classical violinist? Something like that?
I never contested that there was only one view - just only one right view. I am sure there are a plethora of wrong views, yours not least!
And, no I am not a politician, although I do work for one.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I did try playing Atholl Highlanders in all minor keys once when I was at home by myself. That was enough and I have never tried to play it in minor keys again. I don't play Atholl Highlanders at our local sessions because one of the melody players likes to play it.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Fauxcelt - there is a number you can call to request that this individual is discretely "taken away".
Mix - Following your logic through to its conclusion then you would presumably argue that there are no Scottish pipe tunes that are in A at all. In order to be in A they would have to have no G in them and by default that would mean they were not in A!
How many tunes that are in D major have no C# in them? There must be quite a few.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/9333
This one for example - submitted by you last month.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@No Cause for Alarm
The fiddler in question came from a classical background, but subseqently made a very successful transition into traditional playing. He was a very respected musician then, and probably still is. Its quite normal to cite the opinion of an expert when stating a case in an argument - not devious at all.
It's interesting to see that that I wasn't too far from the truth when I made the suggestion that you might be a politician.
And I now find that you work for a politician!
Which political party would that be then? The Monster Raving Loony Party? Or would it perhaps be the party whose Home Secretary submitted an expense claim for naughty videos?
Well, you certainly talk like a politician - claiming that there can be only one valid view.
If a tune that resolves on A has F#s and C# but no Gs (sharp or otherwise) it *could* be any one of the following:
1) A-Maj
2 A-Mix
3) A-Hex
Its impossible to say which it is with certainty without asking the composer - impossible in this particular case.
However, Atholl Highlanders has G-nats in the fourth part, which would seem to add weight to the A-Mix case, if you consider the four parts as an entity.
Scottish tunes in A-Major? Well, I'm sure there must be plenty - those that started life as fiddle tunes, probably. Interestingly though, the Scottish "major" fiddle tunes seem to be much more commonly set in D-Major.
Regarding the tune: The Bold Deserter, someone was asking about it in a session thread. I remembered that I had it in printed tunebook, so decided that it might be of some help if I posted the tune. My abc transcription was directly from the printed score, so my opinion of the key of it doesn't really come in to it .
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Not possible to ask the composer no, but you could always ask the Duke of Atholl or maybe the PM of his band. I wouldn't trust a piper with a question about keys though.
But fine - what key would you say the Bold Deserter was in then?
I certainly do not work for either the Monster Raving Loony Party or "that mob". I live in Perth - I am sure it would be easy enough to take an educated guess.
There certainly are plenty of Scottish tunes in A major. I would disagree with you that the majority of Scottish fiddle tunes in a major key are in D - I would say there were more in A. I have not done a survey of it though.
It is probably fair to say that the majority of true major pipe tunes will be in D rather than A.
I don't think you can consider the Atholl Highlanders as a single entity in terms of the key. If you did then the G nat in the 4th part would not stick out at all to the ear - but it does because you have been hearing it in A major up to that point.
If you play an Emajor chord at any point in the tune then you are accepting the implicit presence of the G#.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to claim a lack of responsibility for The Bold Deserter. We are all responsible for the accuracy of our own submissions to this site whether they are stolen from a printed source or not.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The Atholl Highlanders is an interesting tune here. The first three parts are in A major, Generally, there is no G in there[ though some versions 'do' have G#] so theoretically it could be In A MIX , but The chord progression uses Emajor. The Gnat in the 4th part becomes a strong blues note as a result, giving the tune an Interesting twist.
It is often the case that tunes encompass a number of keys, so its often simply not possible to definitively name one key as such.
The balance between Pipe tunes in A and D is probably tilted towards A ... there are a few in Bm as well, though that Bm might be a mode?
The bold deserter? Dmajor...or did i miss something?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
No Cause For Alarm - "I wouldn't trust a piper with a question of keys", you say. if you really think that, why make a reference to pipe scores?
Politician in Perth, eh? Well, (not that you appear to think of me as being educated), but I'll try to hazard an "educated" guess...
Would that be the party that privatised the water industry - an industry which is now inflicting extortionate above-inflation price increases upon us for this essential commodity? Or perhaps the party that's gone a little quiet about independence for Scotland since the bailout of one of its major banks?
An interesting point you made about the playing of an E-major chord - although I can't really sees that as being too much of an issue, E being the fifth (therefore the dominant) of any scale in A.
Its often possible to stray away little from the accepted melody of a trad tune without killing the character of it. But introducing a G# anywhere in this one would spoil it for me. That's why I maintain that a G# is NOT implied.
Plenty of tunes that are submitted here appear in printed tunebooks. I believe that there has been quite a bit of discussion about it, and as I recall the consensus was that creating an abc version from a printed version wouldn't be considered as a breach of copyright. And if it were to be, the publisher would be responsible fro the breach (in this case, Jeremy) - not the submitter of the tune.
I accept no responsibility whatsover for deserters - bold, or otherwise. Leave that to the MPs. Military police, that is - not members of Parliament ..
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@ Ionannas - I believe that you are correct in saying that the balance of pipe tunes between A and D is probably tilted towards A.
But the subsidiary question raised here was the balance regarding Scottish *fiddle* tunes ..
What say you on that one, out of interest?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
And check out this thread, regarding the "Blarney Pilgrim"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14277
Submitted here on the session as D-Mix, but plenty of arguments claiming that is doesn't resolve properly on "D", and is therefore a G-Major tune. Or maybe a gapped scale etc etc.
Valid arguments from all parties? ...
.. or is it just all a load of Blarney ....
P.S. The thread was entitled : "A Simple Question!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix - I am sure I made no reference to your education which I am sure is formidable. On this solitary occasion however I believe you have strayed from the path of righteousness.
Pipers don't write key signatures into their manuscript because, without the ability to sharpen or flatten a note (although there are a number of pipers who do do this now) then it would be redundant. This does have the unfortunate effect of making (some) pipers utterly useless in identifying keys.
"Would that be the party that privatised the water industry"
I am sorry Mix but your education is slipping here again. The water industry in Scotland was never privatised and Scottish Water is still publicly owned. I realise that is not the case in the water coming out of your Bristol taps but here in Bonnie Scotland that is one example of our Independence.
In terms of banking bailouts there has been more than one "Scottish" bank bailed out (RBS and BOS). Unfortunately neither is uniquely Scottish and the financial difficulties they have faced are a result of international influences and speculation and the bungling of a certain former Chancellor. From where I am looking the Scottish Government has not gone particularly quiet on the matter of their quest for freedom for Scotland. On the contrary the financial crisis is just one more example of why Scotland may be better off as an Independent Country.
Anyway I am not saying which party I work for and this site isn't meant for politics anyway.
My comments on printed books were not relating to copyright issues. My point is it is our responsibility when posting a tune, whatever the original source, to make sure it was correct. I note you have still not answered my question in that regard though.
The point about the E chord is it is made up of E G# and B. By playing an E chord you are automatically adding a G# to the mix. If the tune was in A mix I would not play an E chord - it would sound awful! Remember the chords in an A mix scale would be:
A, Bm, C#dim, D, Em, F#m, G, A
Really Mix, I thought you were an expert!
Ionannas - the reason I reckon there could be more D major tunes than A major tunes within the piping repertoire is because of the G nat in the scale. Lots of the piping tunes in A will be either in A dorian or A mix. Unfortunately for poor Mix he is tripping up with the example of the Atholl Highlanders which is for the vast majority of the tune in A major. He havers about it by coming up with a key "A Hex".
In terms of the Bold Deserter - D major indeed - it is only Mix who will not admit this because it counters his own argument relating to The Atholl Highlanders.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Oooh - The Blarney Pilgrim!
Note it required me to step in there as well in order to settle the argument by working out suitable chords for the troublesome part!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix, I have to point out that some versions of the AH actually contain G#, not implied, but played. . The pipe scale contains 2 G's; a G nat and another G between Nat and #. This G[nearly]# is used to replace the True G# that is not available, as it is a leading note and not stressed it is , or was, possible to play this G without disturbing the melodic flow. I say was, because the whole tuning of Pipe chanters has changed a lot this century, what was typical of a chanter is not now so. Why this is so ,is to bring pipe music more in line with modern concepts of intonation. Whether this is a good move is debated .
In answer to your question, I would be going out on a limb here and suggest A, but I dont play much in the way of Scottish tunes. But the ones I do are in A.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
There are also pipe tunes in G as well. Gordon Duncan wrote a tune, The Belly Dancer, that is supposed to be in F#Phrygian!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Blarney pilgrim! very interesting tune chordally, I use two chords, G and D.but I suggest it is in G not D, though of course it can be played in any key. just reading the thread, I have to agree with benhall, that all three parts are in G. I make the point that it is a very old Pipe tune, well before the Uilleann pipes came along and is in fact an old Piob Mhor tune, that being the case the drone would be, G[though as I say the pitch is not fixed.} Ie its a bagpipe tune!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
No Cause For Alarm, thank you for your suggestion that this individual be discretely taken away but I doubt that the Arkansas State Hospital and Asylum for the Insane would accept him because this person is a retired engineer for the local telephone company. He plays button accordion and bodhran as well as thinking he can sing. He likes to play Atholl Highlanders on his accordion. Since the flutes and the fiddles like to join in and help him play this tune, if they take him away, they would probably have to take away the flute and the fiddle players also. If all of these musicians were taken away and locked up, that would kill the local sessions.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Oh fauxcelt! Once they are all taken away and locked up if there is no local session anymore you could always move to an area where there is.
The whole process could start over again then!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
LOL, No Cause For Alarm, thank you for the suggestion.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/380
Jenny Dang The Weaver - D major (and it couldn't be any more D major if it tried!) and yet no C#s.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The version of Atholl Highlanders which the melody players (button accordion, fiddles, flutes) at our local sessions prefer to play is similar to the version which is in the Tunes section of this web site.
Myself and the guitarist or guitarists use the following chords to accompany the Atholl Highlanders because it sounds good to our ears and it doesn't clash with what the melody players are playing.
First section: A major, E Major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
Second section: A major, D major, A major, E major, A major, D major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
Third Section: A major, E major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
Fourth section: A major, D major, A major, G major, A major, D major, A major, D major, E major, A major.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Whilst this is a topic of conversation, Father John MacMillan of Barra is a fine example of an A major pipe tune with no G# actually in the melody, but it still sounds obviously in A major, and a lovely tune to boot.....
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by markt123
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
No Cause - No G# if you play a power chord!
What about that old warhorse, Soldier's Joy. A D-major tune - would you agree?
But I've lost count of the number of times that I've heard a guitarist play a C-Maj chord in the fourth bar. What's your take on that one, then? Soldier's Joy - or Soldier's Sorrow?
Ionannas - if you say that there are versions with G# (or G quarter #), I'll believe you - but hearing it that way would jar my ears!
Incidentally, another tune that's sometimes get played with G# is Green Hills of Tyrol, and that also jars my ears ....
But as you say, the alteration of chanter pitch in recent years also complicates things considerably.
Hey, and what about those mass band affairs that you get at the end of military tattoos?
Well, I don't mind listening to brass bands or Scottish Pipe bands, but the combination of two comes across to me like an unholy caucophony ...
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
No Cause - what about pentatonic tunes that resolve on A then?
Are they all A-Maj tunes in your book?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix, the high G# is part of a triplet that runs up to the high A, . There is no low G#.
Faux, those are pretty much the chords I play.
Soldiers joy is a D major tune, mix, the reason someone would play a C maj chord IMO is because they dont have a clue, or they play it in in G?
Mix, every tune is different, only by listening and experience will the key and chords be clear.
oh and I agree with you re the brass band/bagpipe scenario, but It takes all sorts to make the world.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
yes markt, Father John MacMillan of Barra is in A major.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix - Of course I agree that The Soldier's Joy is in D major. I am well aware of what chords *should* be played and I can also hear why someone would go for the C chord with the tune because it does sound like it should (until you play it!)
On the other hand I hate that tune so much that more often than not I will be deliberately different and play the wrong chord at the end of each line - and I don't mean a C chord - well not just a C chord. It might be an Fmaj7 or a Bbm9th. Really it is wherever my fingers fall in an entirely random way - usually a complete nonsense of a chord!
It may seem childish and petty but I think it makes my point and usually raises the odd smile.
Thanks markt for joining the fray with a great example. Note that Mix still has not answered my question - What key does he think The Bold Deserter is in?
Must be running scared
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ionannas - I don't think markt was asking a question there.
Mix - re pentatonic tunes - give me an example. I am not very good with abstract notions like that!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I didn't think he was, just confirming his observation.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Calling out passing tones for the box player while playing power chords, modulating, & resoving back to the original key on guitar
I guess I'm too late for the discussion regarding key,mode(s) &/or modulation in the 4 part version of Atholl Highlander's.
For what it is worth;
According to Andrew Kuntz ~ Composer is William Rose (What else has he done?) Skinner throws in a single high g# & that leading into a high " a " (perhaps Ionannas' triplet) I copied the bit below. For some reason Andrew's transcription has some natural before a couple of the gs (=g). I removed them because it seems like an error (the note would become gnat nat (f#) On the other hand it may well be the triplet & could thus be (3e/f/^g/|a2
Is there a recording of Skinner?
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/AS_ATT.htm#ATHOLE_HIGHLANDER%27S_FAREWELL_TO_LOCH_KAT
X:1
T:Athole Highlanders Farewell to Loch Katrine, The
M:2/4
L:1/8
R:March
S:Skinner – The Scottish Violinist
Z:AK/Fiddler’s Companion
K:A Mixolydian
(3e/f/g/|a2(ea)|(Aa)(ec/A/)|{f}g2 (dg)|(Bg) (dB/G/)|{^g}a2 (ea)|(df) (ec/A/)|
{d}c/B/c/a/ e/f/e/A/|{A/B/}cAA|
Now I'll have to see aboutt "The Bold Deserter"
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: resolving
the " l " is implied
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Random_notes - Does it matter that this is a different tune?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Different tune I think random.
I mean this... roughly ;
K: AMaj
|: (3B/c/d/ |\
e2 e e>cA | e>cA B>cd | e3 e>cA | B>cd c2 B |
e3 e>cA | e>cA B>cd | 4e/f/^g/a/ e f>ed | c<dB A2 :|
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
cross post!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
This discussion got me thinking on the number of Pipe tunes that are actually in A major, even with the limited options of that composeres are faced with on the Chanter. Here's a smattering of the ones I'm familiar with;
The McNeils of Ugadale
My Own Land
The Conundrum
The Camerons of Shieldaig
79ths Farewell to Gibralter
Alan MacPherson of Mosspark
Calum Beag
The Seige of Delhi
The Braemar Gathering
Loch Maree
Kenny Gillies of Portnalong
The Glasgow City Police Pipers
The Dornoch Links
I'm sure there are lots more too.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by markt123
~
No cause for alarm& Ionannas.
I know the tune you're talking about. This one's not it. Carry on.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
. ahh...The Clumsy Lover. ...
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Thanks markt123
I have just got back from the Breabach gig in Perth tonight - some cracking pipe tunes in the course of the evening. They didn't play The Atholl Highlanders though!
Definately a band to see if they are in the area at all. Wonderful foursome with a mix of flute and whistle, twin pipes, fiddle, guitar and song.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
http://www.myspace.com/breabach
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I saw them in Glasgow a little while back and I agree with NCFA. I liked the twin pipes mostly but that's cos I'm a munter
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by pavlf
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
"munter" - that is a great Scots word!
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ah, I've came across a few munters in my time ........ maybe thats the wrong way to put that....
@ No Cause, I saw Breabach on BBC Alba's Horo Gheallaidh programme recently, and was impressed, unfortunately SW Scotland is a bit of a live music wilderness, so we dont get a lot in the way of decent bands coming through......
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by markt123
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@No Cause For Alarm - apologies for delay in getting back to you, but I had to get off to our Monday sesh ... and in a rare good mood I am in too as a result - only ONE
guitarist there this time , as opposed to the FIVE 
that we had there last week ...
Less is more, as they say ....
Well, I'm pleased that you kept your water (although, didn't you lose your electricity?). Not that you have any shortage of water - I got soaked the last time I was up there ...
And yes, I knew about it being more than one bank, and I might have been tempted to mention the Dunfermline BS as well
I note that you are keeping your political allegiance a closely-guarded secret, but I would hazard a guess that your favourite tune might be "Salmond Tails Up the Water"
Soldiers Joy? D-Major for sure, but that wasn't my question. If I were backing this tune, I would have an A chord in bar 4. Would you agree with that? However, a very high percentage of guitarists play a C-Maj chord in that bar. Although C-Maj doesn't clash with the melody notes at that point, it's out of character with the rest of the tune. Musically, correct maybe - but athestically incorrect, IMO.
Example of a tune using the pentatonic scale? Probably the most well-known one would be "Coming Through the Rye". If you are Scottish, you must surely have heard of it. Especially as it also has words written by "the Bard himself"
Key for the Bold Deserter? My answer is the same is the one that you gave in this thread:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14277
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix - Glad your session went well last night. I hope that, of the 5 guitarists, you got the "right one".
). The correct chord and the one I would play if I was playing it straight would be an A. I remember I used to try to fit a C in there but it sounds poor. I don't think a C would be musically correct - chord choice is not just about the notes in that bit it is about the notes before and after - where the tune has come from and is going to. As the tune is in D major you couldn't play a C there - it hurts.
Yes we did lose our electricity. 2 main companies up here - Scottish Power (run by Spanish firm Iberdrola) and Scottish Hydro Electric (part of the Scottish & Southern Energy Group - the controlling part!).
Sorry I thought I had answered that question (never mind, I will answer it again
Anyway as I said, if i was playing it straight I would play an A. More often than not though I would play a C or an Fmaj7 or possibly a Bb aug 2 or just a string of discordant notes and pick a different string of discordant notes for the next line end and so on.
As for Bold Deserter - we did not discuss that tune on the Blarney Pilgrim thread so I can't help but think that you are havering again! While you are at it why don't you come up with *your* keys for markt123's list of A tunes? - that should be interesting.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
How could we have the "best guitarist", when the world's self-styled "best guitarist" lives in Perth? It would be too far him to travel, just for the evening.
In the Blarney Pilgrim thread (when referring to that tune) you said that you were "hedging your bets" - that sounds like "havering" to me ...
And even though I've now given you an example of a pentatonic scale tune (which you should have known anyway) you still haven't answered my question on that point!
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I never said the "best guitarist" - I said the "right one" and it was tongue in cheek.
I also have never styled, nor do I think of myself as the "best guitarist" in the World! Far from it - and you know that fine well - hopefully a tongue in cheek comment yourself. I do work hard on my guitar playing and I would hope to be considered half decent but "the best" is some way off yet!
Re Blarney Pilgrim - I did say I was hedging my bets - but as I said I did not think that either a D or G chord worked at that point so you needed to pick another one. What no one did at the time was to say whether they thought "my chords" worked - and I am still suffering the wounds of that! I would welcome your input on that now if you were willing.
I know what a pentatonic scale is Mix - but your question "do I think all pentatonic tunes are Major? is a little unfair a question. Anyway the answer would be no. You can get major and minor pentatonic scales for a start - which instantly rules out that generalisation. As far as "Coming Through the Rye" is concerned I can't remember, off the top of my head, how the tune goes so you will have to wait for an answer on that one.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
My personal opinion, which isn't worth much in all honesty, is that there are some undoubtedly pentatonic tunes, possibly even hexatonic tunes, which will not be pigeonholed into any mode or scale, part of the attraction of these tunes is the ambiguity of the gapped scale.
Notwithstanding this, there are most definately some tunes which are gapped due to the restrictions of the pipe chanter, but are still unashamedly in a certain key, for example John MacMillan of Barra, which I mentioned earlier, which is very much an A major tune, even if it doesn't have a single G# in it.
Possibly, if I looked closer, it might become apparent that the older the tune is the more likely the chances of ambiguity, whereas more recent tunes will be less ambiguous, as a result of Scottish musician/composers being influenced by other instruments, styles of music etc. I'm sure there will be exceptions to this, as always....
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by markt123
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
That's a pretty good summing up, markt123
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@No Cause For Alarm - when I referred to the world's best guitarist living in Perth, I don't recall mentioning your name in that connection.
But no doubt you will correct me if you believe that I'm wrong on that point ...
... you usually do ...
But for the avoidance of doubt, I was actually referring to a well-known Australian guitarist ...
Regarding "Coming Through the Rye", please see the abc transcription below.
I'm not sure whether or not the abc notation system caters for pentatonic keys. So in this transcription, I've called it G-Major for want of anything better. Indeed, it does have a "majory" feel about it - more than a "minory" one, anyway
X:1
T:Coming Through the Rye
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:G
|D2D DB2|A2G AB2|D2D E2D|G4-Gz|
D2D dB2|A2G AB2|D2D E2D|G4-Gz|
d2B GB2|A2G AB2|d2B GBd|e4-ee|
d2B c2A|B2G AB2|DD2 E2D|G4-G z|
There has been some discussion in the past on this board regarding the classification of the various pentonic and hexatonic scales.
However, as I recall, no-one was able to come up with any "official" classification of the subvaraints of these scales.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
If "Atholl Highlanders" hasn't been beated to death already, I want to throw in a few things about it:
1) the claim was made that the first three parts are in A Major because the chords are A Major and E Major. Who says so? There are no G's whatever in the melody (in the REAL tune at least) in the first three parts, so an accompanyist who puts in E Major chords is actually laying upon the tune, forcing upon the tune, things which do not exist in it.
2) it drives me CRAZY when ignorant accompanyists play the chord change
A Major > D Major > A Major
in the 2nd part where the tune clearly outlines
A Major > B minor > A Major.
Can't these people hear anything?
The melody is going B - D - F# and they're playing a D Major chord over it!
3) ITM players NEVER play the 3rd part right. It has a 2nd ending which differs from the first time through.
By the way, the Los Angeles Scottish (or LA Scots) Pipe Band plays a great 4/4 time version of the Atholl Highlanders. There are various videos of it on YouTube: check it out. A guy in the band came up with that version, and now other pipe bands have copied it.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
About Highland bagpipe tunes in A Major, it's an interesting subject.
Nowadays, with the "High G" on the pipes tuned exactly an octave above "Low G", no tunes have a complete A Major scale on the pipes. There are many hundreds of tunes which SUGGEST the mode of A Major by avoiding the note G. These tunes are not, strictly speaking, in A Major but are in a hexachord. But they are in the key of A Major to the extent that any accompanyist would play A Major chords as the tonic chords.
But in the old days the "High G" on the Great Highland Bagpipes was tuned to a "neutral 7th", that is, a note approx halfway between G and G#.
It's why there are so many tunes which have an A Major feel which nevertheless have G's sticking out here and there. In the old neutral upper 7th scale these G's would not have stuck out so much.
In Piobaireachd, in which having the upper 7th a true G natural was considered necessary, a different fingering for that note was used.
So, in the old days, Highland pipers maintained two different High G's, the one for Ceol Beag/Light Music and the other for Ceol Mor/Piobaireachd/Great Music/Classical Music.
This has been lost over the last half-century and now the Highland pipes play only the one scale for all musics.
But recently more and more Highland pipers have been learning how to use alternate fingerings to play a true High G# and using this in non-traditional tunes as required.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As submitted by Jeremy:
Ace Ace|Adf Adf|Ace Ace|Bcd c2B|
Ace Ace|Adf Adf|eae fed|cdB A3:|
Is he wrong?
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@ Richard D Cook - Regarding your penultimate comment, and the "normal" chording for the second part of AH (the chording that you don't like) the actual notes (Adf Adf) would be the first, third and fifth of a D-Major triad, would they not? So in that respect playing D-Maj would appear to be OK - and yet, it never sounds "quite right".
As to subbing Bm in its place, I'm not so sure that I would like that much either, as the B in the chord would be dischordant with the A in the triplet, would it not?
Possibly the real answer is that this is an old melodic tune, and that guitar accompaniment is not appropriate at all (apart from the pipe drones in the original)
With regard to your second comment - brilliant!
... possibly the best-infomed comment in this thread so far
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
mark - I wouldn't disagree with anything you said then. Great summary.
Mix - Damn you that was crafty!
God I wish I had never joined this discussion. How can we argue for so long about such naff tunes and miniscule details of key or mode. We could be outside living our lives!
but nonetheless:
Richard - "The claim was made that the first three parts are in A major becuse the chords are A major and E major."
I certainly did not make that claim. It is the tune that determines the key and the chords not the other way round. The first three parts are in A major just because they are. Because it is in A major it is reasonable to play an E chord. It is also perfectly reasonable to play an E "power chord" - in other words leaving out the third.
You can try to squeeze the first three parts into some version of A mix but it would just sound wrong. In fact to put it in A mix you would need to play a G chord somewhere.
Ultimately the main chords in A major are A, D and E
and the main chords in A mix are A, G and D (although I would play the D without a third)
Even if you play the E chord without the third you are still playing in A.
And for the record I do play some Bminors in that tune, or at least ways implications of B minors. Some chords (in DADGAD) I might use would be:
"A" - x0790x (A, A, E, A)
"Bm" - x0970x (A, B, D, A)
"D" - x0470x (A, F#, D, A)
"E" - x0690x (A, G#, E, A)
Oh God, I have just added a G# in there - the heavens are coming down! My E also does not appear to have a B note! I guess that is why I put the chord names in quotation marks.
To be fair on the guitarists who are playing A - D - A if you are playing the tune on the pipes then you have plenty of A notes droning away so the notes in that part would be B, D, F# and A. I wonder why they hear a D chord?
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Mix O'L,
I think your comment about accompaniment is bang on, the same could be said of all talk of keys and modes, I can't imagine most composers of Pipe Tunes would have given it much thought when they wrote the tunes in the first place, they would have been interested in the melody itself, first and foremost.
But it gives us something to argue about at least...
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by markt123
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Yes that is an interesting point, I play Addf in bar 2 of part 2? or |A)4 B/c/d/f | Can you link us to the REAL version which has the B replacing the A?
As regarding the chords Em7 or G as an alternative to E maj, well the G just sounds completely wrong, The Em could fit, if the tune is not played with the G# each time through on the penultimate bar: | 4e/f/^g/a/ e f>ed | c<dB A2 :|
However as far as i am concerned the theory is only there to support the primary source of 'rightness', the ear.
None the less , what chord are you recommending as the right chord instead of E maj? i have tried Bm, sounds wrong, G sounds awfull, Em , maybe but why? still doesnt sound right , while the E sounds right, it fits, and is the commonly used chord for this tune and has always worked for me.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
OK, No Cause - I'll consider myself damned for my craftiness ...
Possibly as cunning as a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on and is now working for the U.N. at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning ....
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Blackadder!
I never even checked that there was actually a B in the part Richard described - I just took his word for it. I await to hear the outcome of thesession.org jury.
Ionannas:
Instead of an E major chord you could play an E chord that just had lots of Es and Bs in it. If you are in standard tuning I suspect 022200 might suffice as an A note never sounds out of place in a pipe tune. Alternatively if you want to add more As then you could play 002200. The real question is why though when you can just play an E?
Ultimately playing a full E chord and allowing G#s into that chordal structure just helps to emphasise the difference of the G natural in the 4th part when it comes along.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I just popped in here because I saw a Blackadder reference. Speaking of which, could you imagine Baldrick the Guitar Player trying to follow this discussion? "Wait sir, I have a cunning plan...what if I just strum D all the time!"
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
As long as the tune is in D then that would work fine.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Talking of Blackadder and Baldrick, anyone remember the dialogue (from Backadder Goes Forth) which goes something like this:
Capt. Blackadder: "This coffee tastes like mud!"
Baldrick: "That's because it IS mud!"
.. followed by an unanswered question about how Baldrick managed to get the froth on the top of the coffee ...
... got me wondering about how they get the froth on top of the Guinness at our local session pub ...
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
"Ah Cappuccino! Do you have any of those chocolate sprinkles?"
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
uspect I do often use the 'power' chord, though not from a theoretical viewpoint, but becauise it sounds right. But i do also use the 'open' Emaj.
I ues the Power E because I like the A and D up there for A major and sometimes MIx tunes.tunes, Standard 55670X
>>Ultimately playing a full E chord and allowing G#s into that chordal structure just helps to emphasise the difference of the G natural in the 4th part when it comes along.<<
Agree fully, that Low G, just sounds so strong a note in comparison to the majofstructure of the first three parts, and In fact i feel the 4th part is major too, with just the one G note as a 'blues' note, Just as the F in the last bit of Give me your hand. Which is a G major tune even though there are no Fs untill that F nat.
Now theres an interesting tune, no point yelling out the key for that one! you know it and the structure and tune , or you dont.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I suspect I do often use the 'power' chord, though not from a theoretical viewpoint, but because it sounds right. But i do also use the 'open' Emaj.
ahem.
I use the Power E because I like the A and D up there for A major and sometimes MIx tunes.tunes, Standard 55670X
oh dear, the proof reader forgot to check that post, I have had words with him and he promises me he wont let any more errors like that get through, I hope he is right...
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Sprinkles?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgdmlqT5eUI
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ok - I was working from memory!
I got the "Ah Cappuccino!" bit right - even the way he said it.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
LOL! No no, well done No Cause, that's some good memory, it inspired me to go find us the clip!
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
On the topic of the Athole Highlanders, I thought I would drag it out further and quote the following from Roderick D. Cannon's "The Highland Bagpipe and its Music" p40 -
"The true key of A major is theoretically not possible, since it requires the leading note, G sharp. In practice, however, this is not a serious limitation. Some tunes in A major happen not to use the G at all. The pibroch "The Little Spree" and the quickstep march "Atholl Highlanders" are of this type...."
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by markt123
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
what about the 4th part
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Ben Steen
*
quickstep march?
Déjà vu!
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I don't like it so much as a dancing jig, but it has the advantage when putting together ceilidh sets that everyone knows it.
A lot of people fudge the 4th part to harmonise with Emaj instead of G
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Bren
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Shock! what a horrid thing to do to such a lovely tune.. I do have an alternative 4th part that i play on occasion for variety from some CD or other that has no G.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
@Random_notes, it depends on what version of the 4th part you are talking about.
The version I'm most familiar with, not the version on this site, only has one semiquaver G natural in the 4th part, which is so fleeting it could be considered inconsequential. The earliest setting I have of this version is from a reprint of William Ross' Collection of Pipe Music which was first published in 1869.
It is very similar to the alternative version that ceolachan notated in the comments section of the site version.
I will concede however that this is a pipe version, rather than the one that may be commonly played in sessions, of which my experience is somewhat limited currently. It would be interesting to find out the source for the mustard version and see if it is earlier or later.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by markt123
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
<,could be considered inconsequential>>No No No, thats the best bit of the tune! but the vsn I see C submitted is what I would call a variation. The vsn submitted by Jeremy is closer to how I play it, learnt by ear from somewhere or other a long time ago. but not 1869
How does the Ross setting go for part 2? second bar. i definitely think J's vsn is better, but i do play them both.,
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hmm, at the moment in my data base I have several 2 part vsns, a 6 part vsn but no 4 pt! they all have bar2 of part 2 Bdf, and the short G in part 4. So I guess there is an Irish vsn , a jig and a Scots vsn, , the original march. I know which i prefer!
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by piobagusfidil
"Atholl Highlanders"
This 1 has 4 parts;
"The Atholl Highlanders"
May 25th 2001 by Jeremy
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/107
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
The longest and most pathetic load of self indulgent gas bagging chicken stroking tripe that the Wombat has attempted to follow.
Rather than crapping on about eternally variable "session etiquette", if you don't wan't people there, they don't cut the mustard or lower the tone then just ask them not to come again. Then weep as the session dies.
Never mind College of Music trained whizzkids or Fred Bloggs
1482 version of whatever. Notation of modal music into western "keys" will always involve compromises. 1482 version notwithstanding, the tonality of the common modern Athol H. is unarguably A so it is totally acceptable to write it in the key of A albeit compromised when we encounter the undeniable and atypical (for pipe music) Gnatural in part 4. This is however, a compromise key of A and in particular does not "imply" G#.
Throw in the usual collection of misfits who miss the point, over-react to ironic jokes,over-react to everything, don't know what irony is,don't know what a joke is, are just professional sh*tstirrers or tedious pontificators and understand why the Wombat is only a very occasional follower of this site.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by WallyWombat
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Play by ear! play by ear! Play by ear! Don't discuss theory! Don't discuss theory! Pretend to be some bearded Luddite who knows nothing of modern technology and adheres to/defends/pontificates about a tradition that is barely half a century old! Deny sheet music! Abhor those who use it! And while you're about it . . .
Take up 164 posts piddling around in the minutiae of whether or not to use a G sharp in some crappy old tune, while arguing the toss about whose theory is correct. While you're at it, make banal references to existing sheet music and stale auld out-of-tune players who you revere because they are Irish and older than you! Also make sure that everything you write is under a false name, and always remind everyone else around here that you know better than they do! All on an Internet site eh? Whist . . . you lot really need to get out more.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Sorry Wallywombat I wrote that before I read your post and I agree. But . . . Wallywombat????? What's happened to personal accountability in the modern age (says I scratching my beard). Actually I don't have a beard.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
'because they are Irish and older than you!'
Please interchange 'Irish' with 'Scottish' as necessary.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
*
Joel listen to some reggae & just chill. alright?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Oh yeah we're jammin' we're jammin' we're jammin' we're jammin' I hope you like G sharp too. Imagine what the world would be like if the big man were alive today eh? Ah that's made me feel better. Thanks.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Well , lads if you've got nowt constructive to say, and want to get on your high horse about how righteous yous are, then you've come to the right place! , but the wrong thread!, here we just wish to chat earnestly and intelligently in a polite friendly manner about our chosen subject, guitar accompaniment to trad Irish/ Scottish music. Im sure you will find the kind of thing you are looking for somewhere else where so just feck off there eh?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
And while we're at it, don't give me a load of ancient bullsxxt about equal temperament and the like. Just a modern excuse for playing out of tune and not being bothered to take care of your instrument. How do you think string players cope with Mozart piano concertos? Do they sit around grumbling about pianos having equal temperament? No they do not. They accept that modern times are modern times (for 'modern' insert 18th Century). Pah!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hey Joel man,
I gotta say man like I resemble some of your remarks you know. Wombat is like a surname with a long and respected family tradition, man. So it may not be cool to like pick on the name as if its not ok or something.
Also I like think that if it's not your beard you're scratching cos you don't have one then maybe you should like work out what you are scratching.
Walter N Wombat
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by WallyWombat
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ionannas or whatever your ancient and vaguely ridiculous name suggesst you to be: xeck off yourself there. I've never been on a high horse. Just trying to expose what an ancient load of bulshxt this site has to offer anyone interested in traditional music.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Sorry Wombat man
Actually my Grandfather's name was Wally and he was a real a person.
Still can't work out what I'm a scratchin' but man it sure does itch.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
ahh, ok you want to troll all over this thread with your arrogant, pointless childish posturing. What ever , its a free world, enjoy yourself.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Whatever you want Ionannas. As long as you remain a bigoted, anonymous and false-named ignoramus in all things musical, I shall never dare disagree with you. Talk about trolling -- I think it was you who first introduced the feck word into this discussion. Best wishes from Joel (my real name. I live and work in St Albans UK as a writer and music teacher).
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by McDermott
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Hey, steady on guys!
This thread was supposed to be entitled "Calling out KEY names to guitarists at sessions". (Unfortunately, I mis-typed it as: "Calling out CHORD names to guitarists at sessions")
But now it seems to have deteriorated into "Calling other guitarists names"!
Q. I've noticed that threads started by me generally seem to attract a lot of posts (This one currently 177 - now 178).
Why should this be?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qxvJ28W-7k
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
I enjoyed that, Richard. Ta
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
me too, it's great!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by pavlf
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Thanks for that, Richard ...
.. and there was me thinking all those years that the tune was a jig ....
... we live and learn ....
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Great playing, but all those drums! what use are they when its the tune that matters? Why on earth would they play with all that racket and thumping?
[joke!]
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Glasgow World Pipe Band Championships, 2007
Thanks Richard!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Wow, has this one ever gotten long- winded! I'm not gonna wade in too deep, but here goes. I have been involved in the long (but rewarding) process of becoming a very competent ITM backer (on guitar) over the past eleven years or so. It all started when a close friend of mine, a fiddler, gave me "The Bug" by taking me to my first session. Was I "very competent" from the beginning? Most certainly NOT! I started out going to a beginner/intermediate level session, where I progressed (I
thought) rather quickly. What I didn't know was that sunshine was being blown up my backside by well- meaning people who didn't know any better. When I ran into some more accomplished musicians however, boy, did my perspective change! The incident in question involved:
1) Myself playing the wrong chords on a tune (a mazurka, if I remember correctly)
2) The offended muscian ANGRILY BARKING THE CHORDS OF THE ENTIRE TUNE AT ME (while playing a concertina, no less- no wonder he was angry!)
3)Myself being embarassed, not to mention feeling REALLY uncomfortable.
but the fouth, and most important thing that happened, was that i was forced to COMPLETELY RE- ASSESS my standing in the wonderful world of ITM. I started attending sessions
where the aforementioned concertina (and EXCELLENT fiddle player) & his friends played. I brought my guitar with me, but I also brought with me A TAPE RECORDER. I spent more time at those sessions listening to & recording than I did playing them. Within about 2 years or so, after countless hours of playing along with those session tapes (as well as listening to as much of this music as I could get my hands on), I ran into the same concertina player/fiddler at another session, where he commented on how much my playing had improved! About 2 more years after that, and I was welcomed at their sessions as a regular. Have I "Arrived"? Not at all- I am continually working on improving my backing, to the point where I have now been playing melody (on banjo) for the better part of 7 years, because KNOWING THE TUNES IMPROVES THE BACKING OF THE TUNES. But enough about me, back to the topic. Is "calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions" helpful? It changed my life!! But in the big picture, it will scare away guitarists with thinner skin than myself. If that's your aim, to eviscerate some poor kid who just doesn't know any better (YET), then by all means, bark away. What we usually do at the sessions I attend (and I still go to that beginner/intermediate session, just more for the social aspect now than for the tunes) is discuss what tunes we're going to play BEFORE WE PLAY THEM. If there's a backer there we don't know, we are then able to discuss "chords" or "keys" before we start. If all the tunes in the set are in "G", and said guitarist simply wails away on a G chord for the entire set, at least then they can then be dealt with accordingly. Barking chords almost invariably causes unpleasantness in one form or another (for BOTH parties). Try talking with the person instead, you never know when you might cause a lightbulb to go off, and without any unnecessary nastiness. That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.....
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by jaychoons
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Good grief jaychoons, just as well you couldn't spare us a dime ...
Just for the heck of intertwining 3 recent threads:
I have a confession to make; my recent discussion regarding the compulsion to join in with a tune was indeed fueled by this very thread - inept chordal harmonization;/accompaniment causes me most personal grief at our session (and trust me, other causes are by no means lacking). I won't even bother offering an example, there being too numerous to mention.
BTW. As a failed guitarist, I couldn't so much as accompany myself home without the sheetmusic.
Joel - surely no one would have a problem if all temperaments were indeed equal?
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Great post Jay!
If every guitarist who showed up at a session had your dedication and commitment to "do it right" , ITM melody players wouldn't resent guitarists. Because they really don't resent guitarists as a class, just the inept ones.
Back to Atholl Highlanders, yes bar 2 of the 2nd part is:
B D F# B D F#
which to me at least means that a B minor chord should be played, not D major. At least in the "real" tune, that is, the traditional Highland pipe tune.
That, I think, is the ONLY chord I've ever called out to a guitarist in 30 years of sessioning, because they always play a D there.
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Ok that makes sense, but the version we have here at the session and the one I know goes AdfAdf so perhaps they are expecting, and used to that version? [ They probably think'' why does he play that bit wrong! ?
]
This is the problem I have often had over the years; Newbie guitarists with a few yrs experience in trad , who know enough to be dangerous, can insist on substituting relative majors instead of the relevant minor, which alters the whole harmonic and chordal structure/progression. This always throws me off , I hate it . From years of improvisation I listen carefully to the guitar and relate what I am playing to the chords underneath. Of course thats fine in a jazz/improvisation/ free jam situation but in trad it creates this split between the two instruments. All of a sudden there is no cohesion between the chord and melody. it feels so amateurish, the guitarist is not listening to the melody but imposing their own chord. This is the same type of guitarist who often wont even notice a key change! or a tune change! The sort who gives the guitar a bad name in trad. Needless to say they dont get 'the call'.
I will stress the 2 most important things for a backing guitar player is to listen intently to the tune, and to listen to lots of traditional music.
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
Play Bm7 and you've got all bases covered!
Especially the "offending folkies who don't like 7ths" base, although 10/1 on they won't recognise a minor 7th by ear, especially if you call it D6
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by Bren
Re: Calling out chord names to guitarists at sessions
RANDOM ~ YES!!!
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by ceolachan
oops! ~ wrong thread...
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by ceolachan