Hello. I just want to check with a fiddle player if the second note in brackets is the correct one for these two rolls: E(G)EDE ... F#(G#)F#EF# Thank you very much!
The first is correct, the second is possible, but consider to play (A) instead of (G#). Some fiddlers play a first finger roll 12101, but if you play (G) in the first case, why not play (A) in the second case?
Thanks Henk. I was shown to roll from the E to G so I play that correctly. But I was also told that a roll is the 'note above and the note below' so that's why I was rolling from the F# to the G# and felt a bit unsure about it.
Second finger rolls, whether sharp or natural, use a third finger cut in normal third finger position and a lift to the note below. So your f# roll would be F# (G) F# E F#. Same with f natural.
I'm not sure I've seen any fiddle players use a 4th finger on a roll for F#.
Think of it this way - many whistle players will always lift the same finger for cuts. Fiddle's the same way, it's usually just 3rd finger for rolls unless you have to do a roll starting on a third finger. Some fiddlers do of course use the 2nd finger when they're doing a roll on a first finger.
Ok so it's about using natural finger positions. I'm very happy to have that cleared up. Just one thing: Do fiddle players who roll with the 2nd finger do it because of habit, or do they prefer the sound of the roll, or do they alternate between using the second and third fingers depending on the tune?
Reenactor: I was talking about first finger rolls on D and E string. I do not see where I would have stated that some fiddlers use a 4th finger on a roll for F# (that would be a 2nd finger roll on the D string so).
What Chrishty says is correct, except from the fact that most players roll so fast that the actual pitch of the auxiliary notes hardly can be heard. Think of it rather rhythmic than melodic. So it's not that important again, timing is the one and all and if your fingers react better with (G#), why not.
Some fiddlers play a third finger roll with the 4th finger flattened, about the same idea I just described.
Quinno, I think 2nd or 3rd finger is about the same idea again: whatever works best physically for the player and/or in the context of the tune. Variation is always welcome, so experiment.
The ring finger may be the most common used to cut second finger rolls, but this isn't written in stone. Lots of Irish fiddlers often use the fourth finger to cut rolls on the second finger--Oisin MacDiarmada is a notable example (I've talked with him in person, while playing fiddle, about this).
That said, in general, most people find that their rolls have more pop if they use the third finger to cut rolls on either the first or second fingers.
Then again, some people prefer more notey rolls (a la Seamus Connolly and Brian Conway), in which you *can* hear the pitch of the cut and note below. In these cases, the choice of which finger to use for cuts may be influenced by concern for getting the right pitch to fit the tune.
Sound advice, thanks. I also like Oisin MacDiarmada's playing - so I've tried rolling the long opening F# in 'My Love is in America' (which calls for a more melodic roll I suppose) with the fourth finger onto the A and it sounds better to me than rolling with the ring finger onto the G.
Henk, I don't have a clue. Oisin told me that he likes using the fourth finger because he gets a cleaner cut. I've experimented with it some and find that I'm using fourth finger cuts more, but not in rolls (except rolls on the third finger of course).
I don't know how many fiddlers out there have that gymnastic a fourth finger. But I've certainly run into a spate of them over the last few years.
Fair enough, Will, but don't you think a beginner should be instructed to do what is the overwhelmingly most common fingering? Oisin is a supreme technician and also one who thinks and talks about technique far more than average - not for the beginner to emulate, I think.
Quinno - sure, do what feels right, but at least try to do what the VAST majority of good fiddle players do, which is 23212, 13101. The other options being discussed here are the exceptions.
No, I think a beginner should learn to do things every which way, to sort out what works best for him or her. Sure, it may help to know what the "norm" is, if there is one. But everyone comes to this stuff with different anatomy and different capabilities. As Quinno has already said, the 4th finger sounds better to him (in at least one instance) than the 3rd finger--he's apparently able to do it.
I think it helps to know the range of options that are used by respected players. It also doesn't hurt to experiment with those options to integrate as many expressive tools into your own play box as possible.
Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Hello. I just want to check with a fiddle player if the second note in brackets is the correct one for these two rolls: E(G)EDE ... F#(G#)F#EF# Thank you very much!
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Quinno
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
The first is correct, the second is possible, but consider to play (A) instead of (G#). Some fiddlers play a first finger roll 12101, but if you play (G) in the first case, why not play (A) in the second case?
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Thanks Henk. I was shown to roll from the E to G so I play that correctly. But I was also told that a roll is the 'note above and the note below' so that's why I was rolling from the F# to the G# and felt a bit unsure about it.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Quinno
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Second finger rolls, whether sharp or natural, use a third finger cut in normal third finger position and a lift to the note below. So your f# roll would be F# (G) F# E F#. Same with f natural.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Henk,
I'm not sure I've seen any fiddle players use a 4th finger on a roll for F#.
Think of it this way - many whistle players will always lift the same finger for cuts. Fiddle's the same way, it's usually just 3rd finger for rolls unless you have to do a roll starting on a third finger. Some fiddlers do of course use the 2nd finger when they're doing a roll on a first finger.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Correct. The fourth finger is only use for third finger rolls.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Ok so it's about using natural finger positions. I'm very happy to have that cleared up. Just one thing: Do fiddle players who roll with the 2nd finger do it because of habit, or do they prefer the sound of the roll, or do they alternate between using the second and third fingers depending on the tune?
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Quinno
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Reenactor: I was talking about first finger rolls on D and E string. I do not see where I would have stated that some fiddlers use a 4th finger on a roll for F# (that would be a 2nd finger roll on the D string so).
What Chrishty says is correct, except from the fact that most players roll so fast that the actual pitch of the auxiliary notes hardly can be heard. Think of it rather rhythmic than melodic. So it's not that important again, timing is the one and all and if your fingers react better with (G#), why not.
Some fiddlers play a third finger roll with the 4th finger flattened, about the same idea I just described.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Quinno, I think 2nd or 3rd finger is about the same idea again: whatever works best physically for the player and/or in the context of the tune. Variation is always welcome, so experiment.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
The ring finger may be the most common used to cut second finger rolls, but this isn't written in stone. Lots of Irish fiddlers often use the fourth finger to cut rolls on the second finger--Oisin MacDiarmada is a notable example (I've talked with him in person, while playing fiddle, about this).
That said, in general, most people find that their rolls have more pop if they use the third finger to cut rolls on either the first or second fingers.
Then again, some people prefer more notey rolls (a la Seamus Connolly and Brian Conway), in which you *can* hear the pitch of the cut and note below. In these cases, the choice of which finger to use for cuts may be influenced by concern for getting the right pitch to fit the tune.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Will: 'Lots of Irish fiddlers often use the fourth finger to cut rolls on the second finger'. Do you reckon this to be a recent development?
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Sound advice, thanks. I also like Oisin MacDiarmada's playing - so I've tried rolling the long opening F# in 'My Love is in America' (which calls for a more melodic roll I suppose) with the fourth finger onto the A and it sounds better to me than rolling with the ring finger onto the G.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Quinno
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Henk, I don't have a clue. Oisin told me that he likes using the fourth finger because he gets a cleaner cut. I've experimented with it some and find that I'm using fourth finger cuts more, but not in rolls (except rolls on the third finger of course).
I don't know how many fiddlers out there have that gymnastic a fourth finger. But I've certainly run into a spate of them over the last few years.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
How about 24202 instead of 24212, sounds nice and crunchy to me......; perhaps too outrageous?
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Yep, I know some fiddlers who go to the open string on their 2nd finger rolls. Anything goes, as long as it sounds like a roll, eh?
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Fair enough, Will, but don't you think a beginner should be instructed to do what is the overwhelmingly most common fingering? Oisin is a supreme technician and also one who thinks and talks about technique far more than average - not for the beginner to emulate, I think.
Quinno - sure, do what feels right, but at least try to do what the VAST majority of good fiddle players do, which is 23212, 13101. The other options being discussed here are the exceptions.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Chrishty
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
No, I think a beginner should learn to do things every which way, to sort out what works best for him or her. Sure, it may help to know what the "norm" is, if there is one. But everyone comes to this stuff with different anatomy and different capabilities. As Quinno has already said, the 4th finger sounds better to him (in at least one instance) than the 3rd finger--he's apparently able to do it.
I think it helps to know the range of options that are used by respected players. It also doesn't hurt to experiment with those options to integrate as many expressive tools into your own play box as possible.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Henk, thanks for the variation: I tried it out but I feel that at this stage I should should perfect my basic second finger roll first!
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Quinno
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
LOL, I stand corrected.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
Sure, Henk. I still can't get that out of what you wrote, but I'm probably just slow today
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Fiddle ornamentation (roll)
That's OK.
Enough for today on thesession.org. Off to a session - in real life - soon. Life can be beautiful.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by Henk Bos