Just something that occasionally comes up in my mind: There are a number of popular public events -- especially those related to St. Patrick's Day -- that purport to showcase or celebrate Irish music and culture. Almost inevitably, the festivities involve Highland pipe bands and the wearing of kilts.
My question is, how did these facets of Scottish culture become associated with Ireland? Or are kilts and pipe bands as much a part of Irish history and culture as step dancing and Kerry slides?
Not slagging off on St. Patty's Day here or trying to start a culture war of words. Just genuinely curious...
Pipes and kilts and whiskey are all an integral part of Irish culture and not something we have nabbed from them. As the old joke goes; the Irish invented kilts, bagpipes and whiskey and sent them over to Scotland. The Scots didn't realise that the first two were a joke.
The thing that I find interesting is that a lot of what we think of as ancient tradition is "invented tradition". Like Highland clan tartans for instance. Tartan is supposed to have been invented in 1725 by an Englishman (maybe it *was* a joke!). The first bagpipes appeared in the Middle East about 4000 years ago. Maybe that was their little joke too...
Ha bloody Ha, Mr. Moclair. Hope you had a good time in France & Spain! I reckon all 3 went over as a package with Fearghas Mac Erc, the leader of the Dal Riata people, whom my wee boy Fergus is named after. But to be honest, I don't know. Although I've been told that the real name for the Highland Bagpipes is the Irish War Pipes. I suppose the Harp appeared in Scotland as a result of the Gaels from Ireland also.
We are talking 1500 - 1000 years ago, and even I can't remember that far back.
Is it possible that some stuff got reintroduced into Ireland when the traffic started going the other way, 3 - 400 years ago?
The Highland Pipe is a member of a family of bagpipes found throughout Western Europe, particularly in the coast and islands of the west.
This family (double reed conical chanter, single reed Drones) appeared in England in the 12th century and spread to Ireland, Scotland and Wales in the late middle ages.
By the 17th century regional varieties had developed and were being played all over Britain and Ireland.
The Irish "War Pipes" of which there are no surviving examples were extinct by the mid 18 century. At around about the same time English big pipes disappear, and we are left with the Scottish and possible Welsh version.
After the 45, Highland regiments were formed and Pipers (originally disguised as drummers in the pay roles, as the instrument was banned) recruited and the military Pipe Band was invented.
Scots Pipes migrate to the north of Ireland in the early 19th century.
In 1909 Henry Stark patented the Brian Boru Chanter. http://www.bagpipeworld.co.uk/British%20Isles/HStarck2.htm
This fitted with Highland type drones was in use in the north of Ireland into the 1960's.
The Kilt is an adaptation of the Plaid worn in 17th and 18th century Gaelic speaking Highlands, and taken into the Army in the Scots regiments.
There were no bagpipes of this type, at the time of the Irish invasion of Northern Britain.
Well, I suppose you could say that kilts and pipe bands are as much part of the Irish history as stepdancing, given that modern stepdancing (now more closely aligned with a competitive sport like gymnastics) has about as much to do with the original stepdancing (now most closely followed in "sean-nos dancing" or in the still extant county dance forms such as Connemara) as the former does to the Irish culture... And given that in Ireland, St. Patrick's name day is a day for meditation and reflection in a religious sense rather than the hoopla and religious travesty we make of it here in the States (and elsewhere in the globe, I'm sorry to say), I suppose it's not too surprising that it turned into a chance to noisily celebrate all things Celtic (and I use that word in it's real sense rather than the marketing term it's become) rather than a religious one.
Sociohistorical/cultural question
Sociohistorical/cultural question
Just something that occasionally comes up in my mind: There are a number of popular public events -- especially those related to St. Patrick's Day -- that purport to showcase or celebrate Irish music and culture. Almost inevitably, the festivities involve Highland pipe bands and the wearing of kilts.
My question is, how did these facets of Scottish culture become associated with Ireland? Or are kilts and pipe bands as much a part of Irish history and culture as step dancing and Kerry slides?
Not slagging off on St. Patty's Day here or trying to start a culture war of words. Just genuinely curious...
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by sts
Re: Sociohistorical/cultural question
Pipes and kilts and whiskey are all an integral part of Irish culture and not something we have nabbed from them. As the old joke goes; the Irish invented kilts, bagpipes and whiskey and sent them over to Scotland. The Scots didn't realise that the first two were a joke.
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by sergeant fox
Re: Sociohistorical/cultural question
The thing that I find interesting is that a lot of what we think of as ancient tradition is "invented tradition". Like Highland clan tartans for instance. Tartan is supposed to have been invented in 1725 by an Englishman (maybe it *was* a joke!). The first bagpipes appeared in the Middle East about 4000 years ago. Maybe that was their little joke too...
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Sociohistorical/cultural question
Ha bloody Ha, Mr. Moclair. Hope you had a good time in France & Spain! I reckon all 3 went over as a package with Fearghas Mac Erc, the leader of the Dal Riata people, whom my wee boy Fergus is named after. But to be honest, I don't know. Although I've been told that the real name for the Highland Bagpipes is the Irish War Pipes. I suppose the Harp appeared in Scotland as a result of the Gaels from Ireland also.
We are talking 1500 - 1000 years ago, and even I can't remember that far back.
Is it possible that some stuff got reintroduced into Ireland when the traffic started going the other way, 3 - 400 years ago?
Danny.
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Sociohistorical/cultural question
The Highland Pipe is a member of a family of bagpipes found throughout Western Europe, particularly in the coast and islands of the west.
This family (double reed conical chanter, single reed Drones) appeared in England in the 12th century and spread to Ireland, Scotland and Wales in the late middle ages.
By the 17th century regional varieties had developed and were being played all over Britain and Ireland.
The Irish "War Pipes" of which there are no surviving examples were extinct by the mid 18 century. At around about the same time English big pipes disappear, and we are left with the Scottish and possible Welsh version.
After the 45, Highland regiments were formed and Pipers (originally disguised as drummers in the pay roles, as the instrument was banned) recruited and the military Pipe Band was invented.
Scots Pipes migrate to the north of Ireland in the early 19th century.
In 1909 Henry Stark patented the Brian Boru Chanter.
http://www.bagpipeworld.co.uk/British%20Isles/HStarck2.htm
This fitted with Highland type drones was in use in the north of Ireland into the 1960's.
The Kilt is an adaptation of the Plaid worn in 17th and 18th century Gaelic speaking Highlands, and taken into the Army in the Scots regiments.
There were no bagpipes of this type, at the time of the Irish invasion of Northern Britain.
All the best PP
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Sociohistorical/cultural question
Well, I suppose you could say that kilts and pipe bands are as much part of the Irish history as stepdancing, given that modern stepdancing (now more closely aligned with a competitive sport like gymnastics) has about as much to do with the original stepdancing (now most closely followed in "sean-nos dancing" or in the still extant county dance forms such as Connemara) as the former does to the Irish culture... And given that in Ireland, St. Patrick's name day is a day for meditation and reflection in a religious sense rather than the hoopla and religious travesty we make of it here in the States (and elsewhere in the globe, I'm sorry to say), I suppose it's not too surprising that it turned into a chance to noisily celebrate all things Celtic (and I use that word in it's real sense rather than the marketing term it's become) rather than a religious one.
Zina
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Sociohistorical/cultural question
Thanks PP -very erudite.
Alan
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by Alanmmcgregor