Hi Amirez.
At the sessions I attend here in Manchester lots of tunes from different traditions get played, though the nucleus is ITM.
I have no problem with this "variety is the spice of life".
Our regular sesh has the same sort of mix as Trevor describes. I agree with PP that variety is etc.
Pedants might wish to distinguish between 'English' and Northumbrian and between Scottish and Shetland, Swedish and Norwegian and start a competition to see who has the most traditions represented at a single session. (Mad Tom reckons that a true english tune is one where you can shout 'a*se' on the last beat of each part and it doesn't sound out of place).
I'm not sure if this is just a New England thing, but the sessions with the top quality players are purely Irish Traditional.....I can't imagine or recall someone like Jimmy Noonan, Paddy Keenan, Roger Burridge, Peter Molloy or Benedict Koehler (musicians I admire who live in New England) pulling out Breton or Galician tunes in an intense, tight, knock-your-socks-off session. I'm sure everyone knows tunes from other genres but a good, tight, high quality session in the North East of the US is probably 99% Irish........
Variety is good but there are thousands upon thousands of Irish tunes so I personally think that's enough to keep me busy for awhile....(sorry if I sound like such a snob......but that's just my humble opinion and observation)
Afterthought: I was listening to the Double-Barrelled CD with Kieran O'Hare and John Skelton. (both playing flute & whistles) It's a great CD and I was totally into the groove while driving home from a session. Then mid-way through, John Skelton sticks in one of his Breton numbers. It's a lovely tune but totally broke up the groove for me. I ended up jumping to the next set of tunes. The Breton tune just felt so out of place on this CD between some really great intense Irish traditional music played on flutes......(the slow airs didn't break things up for me, just the whole change in genres of music).
Martin O'Connor does some Bulgarian stuff on the 'Perpetual Motion' album - plus a lot from other parts of the world (even the Paganini Moto Perpetuo!) Superb stuff and masterfully played - all on a simple 2-row box. I love it. Maybe not to everyone's taste, though.
Jim, I think the question is:
Do they play other genres in SESSIONS??
Of Course everyone knows a few Scottish, Galician, or Breton tunes and a lot of great Irish Traditional artists have recorded other genres on CD's. Now how often do they throw these tunes into a session?? Where I live it's not often. But I'm interested to know about other folk's sessions........
I heard Jim doing some fairly exotic tunes at a session in Southampton recently. Conan also has a fair number of non-irish tunes, which I've heard at SESSIONS.
These tunes are loosely termed Complement.
They provide a good protective mechanism for Kesh Virus type I. Keeps the lowlife at bay.
Yeeehah! I've been looking for an opportunity to get into this topic with a long, rambling screed!
I agree with both M. Gill and Joyce. If a great Galician musician showed up and showed me some tunes they'd take on a personal significance and I'd probably try to spread some of his tunes. I
Jerball - there's not much that I agree with in your post. You've got every right to make these points and fair play to you. When I've got some time, I'll get back to you. Gotta dash right now!
Wow Jerball, that is so well written. I feel the exact same way but have a hard time putting my feelings down on paper or the computer screen : ) I wish I was a better writer!
I am 33 and have been playing the music for almost 3 years now. I will probably dedicate the rest of my life to playing, studying and learning pure Irish Traditional Music. In my 3 years of obsessive compulsive learning, I have only scratched the mere surface of this wonderful amazing music. I want to learn it properly and someday be a good Irish musician. This will mean focusing intensely on just Irish Music.
I really do love and appreciate other kinds of music, but I feel if I want to do something right and master it, I'll have to stick to one style of music. But that's just me. Everyone is different.
Danny I know you don't agree with me. But that's why this site is so cool. I would love to hear opposing opinions and debates. After all, that's what makes life interesting.
Joyce, you mentioned Skelton. He is one of the miracles of musicianship on the planet -- a flute player that can also play the bombard, then back again. From a rocking flute to head-exploding beet-red bombard, back to the gentle breath of a whistle. To watch this man is to behold one of the wonders of life. Maybe if you saw him in person you would have a different opinion about his CD's. Try and catch "The House Band" next time they come through town.
Elliot, I've had week long classes with Skelton and have seen him perform at festivals. I do very much like his music and do like his CD's. Re read my post!. I just felt like the Breton set didn't fit in with the Irish at the time I was driving home. I was in such a great place with the music and then the Breton tune totally halted that groove. It was the time and place.
I was making a point about sticking in different genres within Irish Music....sometimes it just breaks up the good groove. I do really really like Skelton!
How do you know if a tune is irish? On the tunes page a few weeks ago someone was asking about a "irish" tune - The Seven Stars - which was recorded in an english manuscript of tunes popularly played in West Yorkshire (thats England for all you far away people) by Joshua Jackson in 1798. How do we decide whether this tune is Irish, and how pure is its irishness? Should it be banned from sessions because it was englished over 200 years ago. We need guidance in case someone laughs at us for playing a wrongly originated tune - just imagine the embarassment.
The estimable Mr Gill says "We don't play tunes from places, we play tunes from people. Places are merely incidental." I agree.
For the last 20 years there's always been a fair bit of Breton music played in Belfast. The reason for it's popularity was the great friendship and exchange of music between Irish musicians such as the McSherry's and Davey Maguire, and Breton musicians like Jean Michel Veillon. I don't think this relationship exists between Brittany and other parts of Ireland as much; specific musicians such as Sharon Shannon and Donal Lunny might buck the trend but generally it's a Belfast thing as far as I'm aware Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Some of the younger musicians still have a strong association with Brittany and have even married Bretons (congratulations to Jason O'Rourke!!!). Jason and Jim Rainey regularly make the trip to France and are quite comfortable with both traditions.
That said, I think you have to spend quite some time in Galicia or Brittany to fully understand the music and culture. While I do try to play tunes from other traditions, I must confess I struggle to get the same feeling into the music as I am very much a beginner in that respect.
So it's not as rare or "wrong" as you might think to hear "foreign" tunes at a session but unless you're careful (or live in Belfast) they can end up sounding like party-pieces.
In terms of the session as a whole, it's the effect the tune has on it, not the tunes provenance, which is important. It might be worse to drop in an Irish tune (Planxty Irwin anyone?), than a reel from somewhere in the North Americas (Brenda Stubbert's, Frank's reel, say).
Not that there's anything wrong with Planxty Irwin....
Oh, no. I can see where this is going to go. So, I'll clarify what I meant. This is just a personal thing... I don't care if a tune was originally Irish or Scottish. If it's been taken in to the Irish repitoire I don't care where it came from. To say that a tune must be composed by an Irish person in order to be in the Irish style would be ridiculous. Most modern tunes would be out.That's not the type of thing I'm railing against. I'm talking about tunes that are so different from what's commonly held to be traditional Irish that they can't really be considered to fall in the same classification. Obviously, it's an extremely subjective thing. And I would never sit in a session and get upset because a tune may questionably be of Scottish origins. I'm not that bad of a ba$tard! What I'm talking about is overly peppering an "Irish" session with what are essentially novelty tunes for any serious Irish musician. It's an attitude that I'm against more so than the tunes themselves. I've just been in one too many sessions (to the point where I've stopped frequenting said sessions) where people need to go back and revisit their John McKenna and Packie Duignan and Seamus Horan and Michael Colman rather than just finding tunes that sound "cool" because they're "different" and thinking they've got it.
I would add that if a trad musician who really knows what they're doing wants to play some music of another tradition then fair f3cks to em. I've just found that it's usually people who aren't comfortable with Irish trad who want to throw in a bunch of weird-a$$ tunes.
Why does it matter? Tunes like The Finnish Scottisch, or Flat World or whatever come in into fashion, get played a bit and then either fade out of the collective memory or become adopted into the canon. The question of people playing 'party-pieces' at sessions is surely a different one, and has nothing to do with where the tune comes from. In my humbl(ish) opinion, whether a session in general is happy to listen to an individual play The Mason's Apron with 240 variations would depend on, a) how much fun the individual made it to listen to, and b) whether everyone fancied a break at that time.
But I agree that some herbert who kept chucking in a set of Bouree's in every pause between sets might get a trifle irritating, but we do have vocal equipment as well as instruments, and we could tell him to stop it.
As far as Jerball's worry that the Irish or English player of say, Breton tunes might have insufficient awareness of the Breton culture to play the tunes with any insight (You may play a string of notes that could make up a Galician tune but you
If a bunch of Anglos wanted to start a Tibetan nose flute session I'd think it was great. I wouldn't bring my mouth driven flute, but I might have a beer (would a nose flute session be in a pub, I wonder?) and enjoy the craic. I'd encourage those players to really get into the Tibetan nose flute tradition and learn as much as they could about the culture surrounding the music, to actually visit Tibet if they could. Hang out with some local Tibetans. I'd hope that they'd show the tradition some respect by giving it the time and focus that it deserved. But to play a little Vietnamese, a little Chinese and a little Tibetan music and say that because it's all played on the nose flute that it's Tibetan nose flute music would be disrespectful.
It's kindof' like the whole "can I play my trumpet at a session" question. There's nothing that makes a trumpet inherently evil (is there?) and somebody who's really well versed in Irish trad and in the trumpet repertoire and proficient on the instrument might pull it off and it'd be great. It'd revolutionize the tradition!!!! But, you know as well as I, that it'll probably suck.
In the same way, if I'm born and buttered in Ireland or somewhere really strong and the tradition is alive around me and I want to bring in some other stuff and there's cross pollination - that's great. I just think that for most of us who don't live in traditional enclaves of strong trad music that when we try to pull in other stuff it's probably going to suck.
I think there is room for sessions like the one I go to on Thursdays with half-a-dozen others, a session that is ITM-based and all the musicians are well into ITM, in which we also play music from other genres (non-"classical"), countries and periods for our enjoyment and that of the other people in the pub - they like it as well as we do. It makes a change, and we become aware of the differences, and resemblances, between the different types of music, and increase our knowledge of music on a broad base. Above all, it's fun, there's good craic, and we have an excellent landlord.
Other sessions I go to are ITM right down the line; they're just as much fun. For the life of me, I don't see the problem.
Trevor
There really are lots of points of contact between Irish music and some of the other "celtic" musics, and I'm sure lots of us would enjoy it occasionally... I think the key word would be "moderation", so that a favourite international tune or two could be integrated gradually, if enjoyed by all.
Of course, one of the most wonderful aspects of an Irish session is the sense of community and companionship, which comes from *sharing* tunes together, so I think, on balance, no session should be overloaded with tunes that nobody can join in with.
I don't see why the tune can't be played in keeping with the proper local style though... Don't most of us learn by ear? I for one would be hard pushed to find sheet music for, say, Asturian music...
It's kindof' like if you were playing a pick-up game of football (American or real football) and someone suggested incorporating hockey sticks because they thought the normal game was too boring. Sure, you could all agree to do that and you'd enjoy playing together. And, really, who cares. And, really, why are there any rules... Because some people just really like playing football. It
Trevor, Oh course there's nothing wrong with playing different kinds of genres and styles of music in a session. I think people should play what they enjoy. Music should be a kind of sanctuary in this cruel, crazy world we live in............
Personally, I just prefer a session with music coming from the Irish repertoire (and I don't care if Jenny Picking Cockle originally comes from Scotland or wherever, it's a great tune that I love hearing in an Irish session). I want to learn and focus on Irish music, so that's what I love hearing at sessions. This Sunday I'm driving 3 hours to Boston for a lesson and then a session that I'll probably only listen to that will be pure Irish heaven in my opinion.......
I think it's interesting to hear what people like and do not like in a session. Isn't that why we visit this website : )
Depends on how one is going to go about being a purist, I suppose. In an Irish session, you're not going to find all Irish music all the time, and that's the way it is...a native Irish player'd laugh in your face (or much worse, behind your back) if you went on about "pure Irish music" for too long -- like almost all traditional music, it's something of a mutt -- not completely, but a bit. But of course if you wish to get into a tradition that's not your own, you have to obsess about it a bit. I agree with AngieK -- moderation is a good thing, including, of course, moderation.
Well, I think "they" laugh behind our backs anyway, no matter what we do or how we act or what we say ; )
Generally I keep my opinions to myself, especially when I'm in Ireland.I would never even mention the phrase "pure drop". I know better : )
But isn't this a site where we can politely voice what we think and feel? I certainly won't talk about how much I love hearing just Irish tunes at the Burren on Sunday. But I'll be secretly happy to hear 99% Irish trad music played at that session............
My mother was born in Ireland but I guess it will never really be "my own tradition" not having grown up in Ireland surrounded by the music all the time.........but that doesn't mean I can't work hard at learning the music. Aren't we all a bit obsessive about the things we love, especially in the beginning stages??
Well it's almost time to leave my prison, oops I mean office ; )
"yes, but people are from places". Good point, with the onus on "places" (plural) not "a place".
No matter what some romantic might say, Traditional Irish Music did not spontaneously ooze out of the fields and the bogs and the lakes of Kilarney (where the waters are forever blue, even when the sky is grey). People make music that is influenced by the people they play with. Paddys, Celts, Bretons, Yanks, whatever.
Joyce, I'm surprised at you bemoaning the fact that it's not your tradition. Of course it is.
OK then, how does a tune like say, Brenda Stubbert's, or Marco's or any other 'foreign' tune get into the 'tradition' unless they are played at sessions. Or do these tunes have to be 'licensed' by the likes of Altan before you will accept them? Or don't you accept them?
BTW - that post was replying to Joyce and Jerball, not M.G., who slipped one in while I wasn't watching (ouch!).
The Lakes of Killarney are indeed blue, Michael, but I wish that Joyces vision of an Ireland where people are "surrounded by the music all the time" was indeed the case. Most people I know (from outside the music 'scene') who were brought up in Ireland know very little about Irish Music - though most have a relative who does!
Apparently it is, Michael, if my last visit to Ireland was proof! A friend of mine is really into CW, and he said it was very weird to hear CW in Ireland, because you'll hear something that sounds just like CW, but you don't recognize the song, because some Irish person wrote it. (He claims that he'd recognize just about any CW song out there.)
Anyway, Joyce, I wasn't trying to poke at you! Seriously, a big part of Irish culture seems to be not taking anything too demm seriously (am I right here, ottery?), unless of course you do. Irish culture being rather inextricably part of the musical tradition, it spills over. Besides which, since the reel came from Scotland, it seems, and the jig from either France or Italy (I've heard definitive statements about both), it's kind of tough to start talking seriously about a Pure Irish musical tradition.
Still, I have to say that I agree that if a person not part of the Irish musical culture from birth wishes to have their playing be as authentic and genuinely part of that tradition as possible, then, yeah, you're going to have to obsess a bit. Doug Greenberg talked a bit about that when I interviewed him and Buddy MacMaster, just after Mr. MacMaster pointed out Mr. Greenberg as an exception to the rule that you'll find it very difficult to play authentically if you're not born into a tradition. Mr. Greenberg says that you've got to completely immerse yourself in an artificial way, an unnatural way. And it's going to be difficult going for both you and for the people who *are* part of that tradition from birth, the latter because it's going to look like a ridiculous process to them. Who can truly understand something that one has no basis for understanding?
And, no, not to worry, Irish players don't spend all their time laughing at players of other nationalities behind their backs. Just the ones that annoy them. ;)
At any rate, I think the whole world is a place to politely say what you think and feel about anything. And for anyone to politely disagree or otherwise take exception with what you've politely said. It's what happens after that tends to be the trouble. ;)
Just caught this one and feel compelled to dive in.
It seems, from analysing this thread, that the guardians of pure Irishness, in terms of music, lie across the Atlantic. Perhaps, as I said in a previous posting, the further away you are physically from the tradition, the more you feel the need to protect it.
Michael is right. People, not places are the key. Places are just a convention.
At the sessions where I play there is a good sprinkling of tunes from other traditions...Scots, Breton, Klezmer, French Canadian et al (Al is very popular round here as he always buys a round, doesn't leave too many stains and has a nice dog) and none of the trad. Irish players are at all precious, if I may use that term, about the way a session progresses. Perhaps we are comfortable with our tradition and don't feel threatened by another, but enriched. I can understand someone wanting to immerse themselves totally in one tradition but not, surely, to the exclusion of a few, occasional tunes from others. As a great West Indian poet said "What do they know of cricket who only cricket know"? (Substitute baseball for cricket for points west of Cork...the meaning is the same).
I do believe the thing about playing tunes from other traditions in sessions is making them mean something. It just doesn't seem right for a fiddle player (for example) to burst into a new tune that noone else knows. If at least onother person does, that's where you start building up repertoire.
I believe this is what has happened with a couple of Asturian tunes in some Edimburgh sessions. I suppose Simon Bradley started playing them there and they just stayed there.
Anyway, I am probably not the best suited person for this debate, as I am from Asturias. Sessions here are comprised of Irish, Scottish, Asturian and Breton tunes. Even some Galician ones (friendly rivalry).
I think people probably know how I feel about this stuff from previous discussions, so I can't be bothered to repeat it all. Basically I agree with the likes of Zina, Geoff Pollitt and MG (if I've correctly understood their posts) - it makes no sense to talk about "pure" Irish music. Play what you enjoy for enjoyment's sake. Play what your session friends enjoy. You are part of the tradition whether you are aware of it or not. If someone plays a "weird-a$$" tune, extract yourself from your own behind and shut the :-o up and listen to see why they like that tune and why they feel they want to play it. Take the opportunity to have a glug of your Guinness and rest your RSI. If you don't like the tune, go to the bar or go to the loo. Don't waste your time going on this quest to discover "pure" Ireland and "pure" music - it doesn't exist! The misguided Tanya might be dead but there are still plenty Tanyas left on this site!
Jerball, I see the footie/hockball analogy very differently because the point about Irish music is that your game of footie has been constantly evolving since people started making music. Not only have some of the players been using sticks more often than others, they've been using other things too, and some players have used them more often than others. But even so, the basic game has still been called "footie". If you get right up close to the trees, you'll see that the wood they're made from is absolutely f***ing beautiful...
Back to the original question (and ignoring the political correctness or not of my own answer), here in the Oirish heartland of Montana USA, 90 percent of our tunes are from the center of the session repertoire, but with a sprinkling of Cape Breton, Scottish, Shetland, French Canadian, contra dance, and "unaffiliated" tunes (such as the our own original tunes and things like Early Winter by Al Cantrell, the Bus Stop Reel, Pachabel's Frolics, etc.).
Personally, I find that some tunes just fit the session atmosphere, regardless of where they came from. It's entirely reasonable to slip Ingonish or Brenda Stubbert's, for example, into a "hard core" session because these tunes are essentially indistinguishable in form and demeanor from their Irish counterparts. Enough so that many, many session players have picked them up--you'll not likely be doing a solo on those tunes.
What's more a problem to my ear is when someone trots out a nice hornpipe or barndance and plays it like a bluegrass breakdown.
Here in Montana, tunes from Galicia and Brittany aren't yet widely played. I suspect that will change, partly due to the influence of "Irish" cds featuring more of it, and partly because Jean Michelle Veillion has a personal connection to central Montana and local ears are perking up to his playing and repertoire. As has been said, we get our tunes from people, even moreso when you live in the boondocks. We rely heavily on traveling musicians to bring us fresh tunes.
With travel, recordings, and retailing going increasingly global, many trad sessions will likely follow suit, taking in influences from an expanding internationality of sources. In the face of that, some people will no doubt try to hold on to a more pure drop approach. Neither is "wrong," in my view, as long as it's consensual and people are civil about it. Find or start a session that caters to your tastes, and enjoy. If you're not sure what tunes are accepted at a particular session, then you've no business starting a hora or cajun two step. You're better off listening a while longer.
Oh and to answer the original question, hardly ever in the sessions I go to over here in Oz - it's wall 2 wall Irish, unless SirNose and friends play their Macedonian and Breton stuff. I personally love all that and for me it lifts the session, especially since it's done so well. I'm sure bb and co. would rather play pure tunes, but that's okay because there's only a handful of us and we all like Irish tunes. I think they're missing out a bit tho'.
I'm already regretting posting comments today because it looks as though I'm trying to be argumentative when I'm not. What I should have said from the start was that the tradition needs people with views on both sides of the issue, which is the conclusion we come to every time this issue crops up in the discussions. Breton tunes are cool. I've a good mind to post some of my favourite ones but I won't.
I'm home again on a friday night trying to learn a tune for an upcoming Ceili performance. (Beth, if you're reading this, it's the Humors of Bandon. You all danced so well tonight at practice. It was fun playing for you all.)
I remember the last time this came up in discussion. I think we decided that Irish music should evolve, but it needs to be done slowly and gently. I'm sure it took some time before Brenda Stubberts became part of the standard repertoire. And it is a cool tune! Maybe in 10 or 20 years, more Breton and Galician tunes will make their way into Irish sessions as popular standards...but it has to happen gradually. Am I making sense?
Well life is short, so play what you love and find the session that suits you best. For me that's still wall-to wall Irish : )
OK, my Amazing Slow Downer and beer are waiting for me : )
I see from all the answers that the majority don't mind mixing tunes from other traditions , and i wonder why people are less open minded (including me) when talking about leting all kinds of instruments that are not usually played in ITM sessions join in.
Because "exotic" instruments tend to skew the session into something else entirely. In all the world there's probably only a handful of cellists, 5-string banjo pickers, or clarinetists who know a chunk of Irish session tunes. And even if they do know a few "standard" tunes, they're likely to sound off kilter--hornpipes played as breakdowns, jigs played too straight, etc. So when walks in the door, it's a good bet that they're not going to contribute much to the flow.
In other words, a group of the usual session instruments are more likely to sound like a typical session, even if they play a set of calssical caprices, than a group of didges and zithers and recorders playing (and I'm being polite here Rakish Paddy and the Bucks of Oranmore.
By the way, would you consider "Music for a Found Harmonium" by Simon Jeffes (and often played by Patrick Street) session material? I tend to go against it, but then there are other "strange" pieces that pop up in our sessions...
"Music for a Found Harmonium" - yes, we play it in the Bent Brief session in Southampton, and no, it's no way traditional, but it's still session material in my book. It's played by some pretty sh*t hot musicians, though admittedly the tune is 'sexed up' a bit, and played with one hell of a lot of punch, variation and vigour. It's a bit different than the somewhat anodyne versions played elsewhere. And yes, I fully expect half TheSession community to come down on me like a ton of Lambeg drums, but all I can say is, don't knock it until you've heard it!
Sorry Will not biting today.
It's incredible the amount of time people on this site (myself included) spend talking about what is or is not "appropriate" at Sessions. In the 20 years I've been regularly attending sessions I can recall only a handful of times this kind of thing was disused in between tunes.
Sessions will not stand still, and for my part I'm happy to go along for the ride, until I'm dust.
Somewhere in this thread, and others like it, is a very interesting debate trying desperately to emerge, and it's to do with what this "tradition" that we all talk about, and which is so central to what we do, actually IS. The 'Which tunes can we play', the 'Which instruments can we use', the repeated attempts at definition, the references to people who are 'in the tradition', the hand-wringing from the likes of joyce, who says that although her Mum is Irish, it's not really "her tradition", but who never the less is going to "probably dedicate the rest of my life to playing, studying and learning pure Irish Traditional Music." (Wow!)
Ottery - i think we are just trying to have a friendly debate/conversation. I personally enjoyed the responses and found it to be an interesting post even if we have discussed it in the past. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Remember, this is a site where people of all ages, different cultures & countries and ability levels come together to chat about Traditional Irish Music and other types of music. Oh course we are going to talk about what tunes we like and what instruments we want to hear in a session. This is the session.org..............
Ottery, thanks a bunch for singling me out there. I know many other "yanks" who also feel passionate about the Music and have dedicated their lives to the Music or are trying to do so like myself. So don't make me sound so special : )
I almost want to slap myself for getting to the internet during my precious weekend playing time : )
Sorry Joyce, I only singled you out because you put yourself forward as the most passionate and intense (eg - "I almost want to slap myself for getting to the internet during my precious weekend playing time") - to the extent that you seemed to have adopted Irish Music almost as a vocation, despite seeing yourself as being somehow outside the tradition. I didn't mean my last post to be disparaging or sarcastic. I genuinely think there is a central argument/discussion, which we continually skirt around and touch on in these threads. I'm just not 100% sure what it is, it's like one of those thoughts you have at the tip of your tongue and can't quite grasp.
The vast majority of people who play this stuff have to seek it out. And thats true whether you live in the pure bog country, dublin, belfast, chicago, london, sydney or where ever. Most of the Irish people I know who play did not learn it from their parents, uncles and aunts. Their parents uncles and aunts were busy lapping up the Daniel O'Donnels. The nearest most "Irish" people get to "their" tradition is Finbar Fury singing sweet sixteen, not playing his pipes.
Heh, Pied, I'm a fast typist, so I actually spend very little time doing this. But I enjoy it--this sort of dialogue never happens at the sessions I go to, so it's great to have a place to air these ideas and theories, even if they never amount to much. All part of the craic.
And since I wasn't slinging chum into the waters, I'm not sure what you thought I wanted you to bite....
Ottery, I've run into similar recurring discussions about entirely different topics (the field of dispute resolution, what is community, etc.), and finally hit on a way of thinking about it: Trad Irish music is like a mix of art and the weather--everyone knows what they like, but nobody can do anything about it.
I also like the idea that mystery is more important than fact. Our human brains apparently thrive on pondering the unknown (and perhaps unknowable)--that's what pulls us forward in science, the arts, and probably religion too. So we like talking about stuff that's hard to define or draw solid lines around. It's a great mind-stretching experience to puzzle over why there's music, why there are so many different types of music (or are there?), why it affects us so deeply, etc. There is a kind of magic in this music, and rambling threads like this one help me connect to that on more than just the immediate, emotional level of playing. Believe in the magic, and your playing will be.
Will, I believe!
.....
Darn! my playing is just as leaden as ever!
Yes, I guess you're right though. The 'thought on the tip of my tongue' is destined to stay there, where it belongs. People mostly write stuff on threads like this because have a feeling in themselves they want to express, and which they'de like to express by maybe playing a tune or something, but they can't because they're at work or it's 3'oclock in the morning or something, and this is the next best thing... me included, I guess.
You're right about the magic in the music. I re-learned Swinging On The Gate today, a tune I'd completely forgotten about for literally years until a new person came along to our Wednesday night session and played it. I couldn't remember various parts at all, so I printed a copy off this site. It was actually quite an awkward flute tune, as read off the dots, and it wasn't until I stuck them to one side and all the little turns and the way I put a roll in here and there to make it playable, that suddenly it became a tune again. And the mind-map I have of the tune, in effect the route map through it on the flute, is quite different from what might be deduced from a bald reading of the dots, which is really a fiddle setting. And the gradual coming back of that tune, both with the help of and despite the dots, was sort of magical.
Swinging On The Gate! - what a brill tune! I got it from Andybanjo, for which, thanks, Andy!
I didn't find it too bad to get to grips with on the flute - then again I'm on the silver fellow, and maybe I haven't sussed it properly.
Ottery, if your playing is as good as how you write, we'll have to meet up sometime - I feel there's another thesession (London chapter) brewing itself into reality sometime soon...could you make it down to the Smoke?
Next up - I said I'd give a reply to jerball's post, where he asserted that sessions should be near enough all about Irish music, cos that's where this notion (ie, of having a session, in perhaps a pub)comes from. Now, I have to be honest, and admit that I've only just scrolled down the posts and read just a few, so I may have missed some of the best stuff. But I reckon most of what I wanted to reply has been said, so no point in re-stating it. (Sorry Jer - for denying you the opportunity to lock horns!)
But I think we have the same answer, but coming in from opposite sides.
This is my take on it.
If your playing in an Irish session, most of the tunes should be within the cannon of ubiquitous Irish session tunes. "Most"? what's that? -- At least 50%.-- In reality, this turns out to be more like 90%. Some "Irish" sessions I've been to recently in London have been merely a succession of -- and I kid you not -- 9-12 Sets of reels in a row. What the F*ck? They don't diahorreah out all their reels in a one-ner like that in Ireland. They have nothing to prove. They're much more laid back. Good *Irish* Irish sessions, I've noticed, are more receptive to different tunes, so long as they're played nicely, neatly, rather than being Performed, --Hey Look at me! I know some Gallego stuff! --
I'm mad into Irish trad. That's my homebase. Where I live and play I don't think we need to wrap up The Music in too many protective layers, because it's robust enough to survive. Especially these days. I'm all for pulling in some stuff from Brittanny (I, personally, don't see too much of a link between that and Irish music, but from recently observing them at Lorient, I have to admire their spirit!) --- similarly, with the Galicians. I'm not so sure about all this pan-Celtic brotherhood thing. I think that's a marketing ploy. It worries me that so many people fall for it, without investigating, or thinking it through, for themselves.
I'm not an ethomusicologist, nor am I a linguist, but OK, pipes have survived till now in the present musical cultures of both B and G, but there were already pipes in France, Spain and Italy. So they do lovely little Schottisches. Nothing celtic about that.
My view is, if your session can take it, and you pump enough heart and soul into your interpretation of a G- or B-, or Italian, Swedish or Gypsy, tunes, then do it. As long as they are regarded as minority wrt Irish music -- and come to think of it, Scottish music.
Many interesting angles have come out in this thread although like Danny I haven't had time to read all of them. One of these was the attempt to define Irish trad music and what can or cannot be played at a session. This argument leads nowhere as any attempt to draw up a playlist is doomed to failure. For example the origins of some well know great session tunes such as the Tarbolton, Miss McCleod, Lady Ann, Lucy Campbell, etc are far more likely to have been from Scotland but they have been adapted and absorbed into the Irish tradition. Like the comedian who says of his jokes, "It's the way you tell them" so also with music, "it's the way you play them". I sometimes think people can get too analytical with regard to traditional music - it may sound a bit simplistic but I think it's true that you'll know it when you hear it particularly if you take examples such as Joe Cooley, Bobby Casey, Tommy Peoples, Tony McMahon and many more.
As they say "variety is the spice of life" and the odd item (played well) from someone elses tradition can often be very welcome providing the overall balance of the session is maintained (ie the main emphasis is on Irish traditional material). Equally I can't think of anything much worse than a night of "wall-to-wall" reels as again there is so much more in the tradition to be enjoyed whether it be jigs, mazurkas, hornpipes, or the dance music of Sliabh Luachra. However, with the latter care is also required as contrary to the belief that polkas and slides are ideal for beginners (may account for the fact that many sessions rarely play them as images immediately come to mind of hesitant versions of Peg Ryan's - the fA BA, fA BA, d2 ef, ed BA one, etc) there is an art in playing this type of music properly as demonstrated by the likes of Johnny O'Leary, The Begley's and other musicians from the area.
Maybe I' straying from the original thread but what's really anathema to me is the individual who inflicts his ill-prepared party-piece on the session which in my experience is nearly always The Tamlin Reel, a 6 part version of the Mason's Apron or Peter Street (and before anyone jumps in to defend these tunes I did say "ill-prepared" versions)
Hi Danny,
I fear I probably (well, definitely) write better than I play, but I could probably make it down to a London session one of these days.
I wasn't trying to say that Swinging on the gate was an awkward tune on the flute, more that a the dots of a fiddle setting were incompatible with the mental image I had of the tune. I don't know if you find this when learning a tune, but I find that my mental image of the tune changes considerably from the time I first hear it to the time I'd say I know it. It sometimes happens that what I think are the defining parts of the tune when I start to learn it are not the key mental signposts when I come to play it. Does that make sense?
And I agree with you about sessions with massive reel sets. What a waste! But people (frequently banjo players in my experience) get carried away with the excitement of it all and do silly things. The worst aspect of it is that it isn't musical, after a while it just becomes a beat going with a varying tune over the top like one of those wretched disco compilations. A nine reel set can't have any symmetry.
...depends on the session. Irish music forms the core. At the Dora Keogh, early in the evening, you'll tend to hear almost exclusively Irish music. (One of the keystone players has a special disaffection for Scottish tunes in particular, I hear.) Later in the evening, things might get a little more pluralistic, incorporating a bit of Breton and a fair amount of Scottish and Cape Breton tunes (the latter being quite predictable for a Canadian pub). The other significant session in town, at the Victory, is more broad and less exclusively Irish. I go to them both; I love them both.
Talking about tradition, there's the story that a notice appeared in the quadrangle of one of the colleges of an ancient English university. It said, "As from the beginning of next term it will be the tradition that only Fellows of the College will be permitted to walk on the grass".
Trevor
So, was that little notice put up next to the "Keep off the grass" sign?... in which case, they must have kept ON the grass to put the notice there......
How often
How often
do you play tunes from Brittany/Galicia at your ITM sessions ? or you don't do it at all ?
# Posted on September 4th 2003 by azo
Re: How often
I play a few Scottisches from Languedoc, on the box, and Steve plays a fair number of Swedish and Gypsy tunes on the fiddle, do they count?
Danny.
# Posted on September 4th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: How often
At a session I went to last night we had Breton, Scottish, Welsh, English, American, and Swedish, as well as the obligatory Irish.
Trevor
# Posted on September 4th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How often
Oh, and I forgot to say, some actual French box music (as opposed to Breton).
Trevor
# Posted on September 4th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How often
Hi Amirez.
At the sessions I attend here in Manchester lots of tunes from different traditions get played, though the nucleus is ITM.
I have no problem with this "variety is the spice of life".
PP
# Posted on September 4th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: How often
Our regular sesh has the same sort of mix as Trevor describes. I agree with PP that variety is etc.
Pedants might wish to distinguish between 'English' and Northumbrian and between Scottish and Shetland, Swedish and Norwegian and start a competition to see who has the most traditions represented at a single session. (Mad Tom reckons that a true english tune is one where you can shout 'a*se' on the last beat of each part and it doesn't sound out of place).
Dave
# Posted on September 4th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: How often
We don't play tunes from places, we play tunes from people. Places are merely incidental.
# Posted on September 4th 2003 by ...
Re: How often
....yeah, but people are from places....
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: How often
I'm not sure if this is just a New England thing, but the sessions with the top quality players are purely Irish Traditional.....I can't imagine or recall someone like Jimmy Noonan, Paddy Keenan, Roger Burridge, Peter Molloy or Benedict Koehler (musicians I admire who live in New England) pulling out Breton or Galician tunes in an intense, tight, knock-your-socks-off session. I'm sure everyone knows tunes from other genres but a good, tight, high quality session in the North East of the US is probably 99% Irish........
Variety is good but there are thousands upon thousands of Irish tunes so I personally think that's enough to keep me busy for awhile....(sorry if I sound like such a snob......but that's just my humble opinion and observation)
Just my .02
Oh yeah, good point Michael.....
Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Afterthought: I was listening to the Double-Barrelled CD with Kieran O'Hare and John Skelton. (both playing flute & whistles) It's a great CD and I was totally into the groove while driving home from a session. Then mid-way through, John Skelton sticks in one of his Breton numbers. It's a lovely tune but totally broke up the groove for me. I ended up jumping to the next set of tunes. The Breton tune just felt so out of place on this CD between some really great intense Irish traditional music played on flutes......(the slow airs didn't break things up for me, just the whole change in genres of music).
Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Paddy Keenan I'm sure has done some Breton tunes. So has Jacky Daly.
And Andy Irvine with thon Bulgarian stuff... mmmm...yeah, maybe leave that one alone, actually.....
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: How often
In sessions? really?
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Martin O'Connor does some Bulgarian stuff on the 'Perpetual Motion' album - plus a lot from other parts of the world (even the Paganini Moto Perpetuo!) Superb stuff and masterfully played - all on a simple 2-row box. I love it. Maybe not to everyone's taste, though.
Jim
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: How often
Jim, I think the question is:
Do they play other genres in SESSIONS??
Of Course everyone knows a few Scottish, Galician, or Breton tunes and a lot of great Irish Traditional artists have recorded other genres on CD's. Now how often do they throw these tunes into a session?? Where I live it's not often. But I'm interested to know about other folk's sessions........
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
I heard Jim doing some fairly exotic tunes at a session in Southampton recently. Conan also has a fair number of non-irish tunes, which I've heard at SESSIONS.
These tunes are loosely termed Complement.
They provide a good protective mechanism for Kesh Virus type I. Keeps the lowlife at bay.
Danny.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: How often
Yeeehah! I've been looking for an opportunity to get into this topic with a long, rambling screed!
I agree with both M. Gill and Joyce. If a great Galician musician showed up and showed me some tunes they'd take on a personal significance and I'd probably try to spread some of his tunes. I
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by jerball
Re: How often
Jerball - there's not much that I agree with in your post. You've got every right to make these points and fair play to you. When I've got some time, I'll get back to you. Gotta dash right now!
Danny.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Rudall the time
The specialist
....Before I go, I think it was GB Shaw who defined A Specialist as..
A person who knows more and more about less and less, until he finally knows everything about nothing
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: How often
Wow Jerball, that is so well written. I feel the exact same way but have a hard time putting my feelings down on paper or the computer screen : ) I wish I was a better writer!
I am 33 and have been playing the music for almost 3 years now. I will probably dedicate the rest of my life to playing, studying and learning pure Irish Traditional Music. In my 3 years of obsessive compulsive learning, I have only scratched the mere surface of this wonderful amazing music. I want to learn it properly and someday be a good Irish musician. This will mean focusing intensely on just Irish Music.
I really do love and appreciate other kinds of music, but I feel if I want to do something right and master it, I'll have to stick to one style of music. But that's just me. Everyone is different.
Danny I know you don't agree with me. But that's why this site is so cool. I would love to hear opposing opinions and debates. After all, that's what makes life interesting.
Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
John Skelton's Breton Tunes
Joyce, you mentioned Skelton. He is one of the miracles of musicianship on the planet -- a flute player that can also play the bombard, then back again. From a rocking flute to head-exploding beet-red bombard, back to the gentle breath of a whistle. To watch this man is to behold one of the wonders of life. Maybe if you saw him in person you would have a different opinion about his CD's. Try and catch "The House Band" next time they come through town.
--Eliot
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Eliot
Re: How often
By the way, has anyone heard from Tanya, our misunderstood, former session member????
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Elliot, I've had week long classes with Skelton and have seen him perform at festivals. I do very much like his music and do like his CD's. Re read my post!. I just felt like the Breton set didn't fit in with the Irish at the time I was driving home. I was in such a great place with the music and then the Breton tune totally halted that groove. It was the time and place.
I was making a point about sticking in different genres within Irish Music....sometimes it just breaks up the good groove. I do really really like Skelton!
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Heres a spanner for the works.
How do you know if a tune is irish? On the tunes page a few weeks ago someone was asking about a "irish" tune - The Seven Stars - which was recorded in an english manuscript of tunes popularly played in West Yorkshire (thats England for all you far away people) by Joshua Jackson in 1798. How do we decide whether this tune is Irish, and how pure is its irishness? Should it be banned from sessions because it was englished over 200 years ago. We need guidance in case someone laughs at us for playing a wrongly originated tune - just imagine the embarassment.
The estimable Mr Gill says "We don't play tunes from places, we play tunes from people. Places are merely incidental." I agree.
Goodnight all.
Dave
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: How often
Dave - tunes being essentially Irish - that's one of the points I was gonna make, when I got round to doing a big post as a reply to Jerball!
Danny.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: How often
For the last 20 years there's always been a fair bit of Breton music played in Belfast. The reason for it's popularity was the great friendship and exchange of music between Irish musicians such as the McSherry's and Davey Maguire, and Breton musicians like Jean Michel Veillon. I don't think this relationship exists between Brittany and other parts of Ireland as much; specific musicians such as Sharon Shannon and Donal Lunny might buck the trend but generally it's a Belfast thing as far as I'm aware Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Some of the younger musicians still have a strong association with Brittany and have even married Bretons (congratulations to Jason O'Rourke!!!). Jason and Jim Rainey regularly make the trip to France and are quite comfortable with both traditions.
That said, I think you have to spend quite some time in Galicia or Brittany to fully understand the music and culture. While I do try to play tunes from other traditions, I must confess I struggle to get the same feeling into the music as I am very much a beginner in that respect.
So it's not as rare or "wrong" as you might think to hear "foreign" tunes at a session but unless you're careful (or live in Belfast) they can end up sounding like party-pieces.
Con
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: How often
In terms of the session as a whole, it's the effect the tune has on it, not the tunes provenance, which is important. It might be worse to drop in an Irish tune (Planxty Irwin anyone?), than a reel from somewhere in the North Americas (Brenda Stubbert's, Frank's reel, say).
Not that there's anything wrong with Planxty Irwin....
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Ottery
Re: How often
Oh, no. I can see where this is going to go. So, I'll clarify what I meant. This is just a personal thing... I don't care if a tune was originally Irish or Scottish. If it's been taken in to the Irish repitoire I don't care where it came from. To say that a tune must be composed by an Irish person in order to be in the Irish style would be ridiculous. Most modern tunes would be out.That's not the type of thing I'm railing against. I'm talking about tunes that are so different from what's commonly held to be traditional Irish that they can't really be considered to fall in the same classification. Obviously, it's an extremely subjective thing. And I would never sit in a session and get upset because a tune may questionably be of Scottish origins. I'm not that bad of a ba$tard! What I'm talking about is overly peppering an "Irish" session with what are essentially novelty tunes for any serious Irish musician. It's an attitude that I'm against more so than the tunes themselves. I've just been in one too many sessions (to the point where I've stopped frequenting said sessions) where people need to go back and revisit their John McKenna and Packie Duignan and Seamus Horan and Michael Colman rather than just finding tunes that sound "cool" because they're "different" and thinking they've got it.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by jerball
Re: How often
I would add that if a trad musician who really knows what they're doing wants to play some music of another tradition then fair f3cks to em. I've just found that it's usually people who aren't comfortable with Irish trad who want to throw in a bunch of weird-a$$ tunes.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by jerball
Re: How often
Why does it matter? Tunes like The Finnish Scottisch, or Flat World or whatever come in into fashion, get played a bit and then either fade out of the collective memory or become adopted into the canon. The question of people playing 'party-pieces' at sessions is surely a different one, and has nothing to do with where the tune comes from. In my humbl(ish) opinion, whether a session in general is happy to listen to an individual play The Mason's Apron with 240 variations would depend on, a) how much fun the individual made it to listen to, and b) whether everyone fancied a break at that time.
But I agree that some herbert who kept chucking in a set of Bouree's in every pause between sets might get a trifle irritating, but we do have vocal equipment as well as instruments, and we could tell him to stop it.
As far as Jerball's worry that the Irish or English player of say, Breton tunes might have insufficient awareness of the Breton culture to play the tunes with any insight (You may play a string of notes that could make up a Galician tune but you
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Ottery
Re: How often
If a bunch of Anglos wanted to start a Tibetan nose flute session I'd think it was great. I wouldn't bring my mouth driven flute, but I might have a beer (would a nose flute session be in a pub, I wonder?) and enjoy the craic. I'd encourage those players to really get into the Tibetan nose flute tradition and learn as much as they could about the culture surrounding the music, to actually visit Tibet if they could. Hang out with some local Tibetans. I'd hope that they'd show the tradition some respect by giving it the time and focus that it deserved. But to play a little Vietnamese, a little Chinese and a little Tibetan music and say that because it's all played on the nose flute that it's Tibetan nose flute music would be disrespectful.
It's kindof' like the whole "can I play my trumpet at a session" question. There's nothing that makes a trumpet inherently evil (is there?) and somebody who's really well versed in Irish trad and in the trumpet repertoire and proficient on the instrument might pull it off and it'd be great. It'd revolutionize the tradition!!!! But, you know as well as I, that it'll probably suck.
In the same way, if I'm born and buttered in Ireland or somewhere really strong and the tradition is alive around me and I want to bring in some other stuff and there's cross pollination - that's great. I just think that for most of us who don't live in traditional enclaves of strong trad music that when we try to pull in other stuff it's probably going to suck.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by jerball
Re: How often
I think there is room for sessions like the one I go to on Thursdays with half-a-dozen others, a session that is ITM-based and all the musicians are well into ITM, in which we also play music from other genres (non-"classical"), countries and periods for our enjoyment and that of the other people in the pub - they like it as well as we do. It makes a change, and we become aware of the differences, and resemblances, between the different types of music, and increase our knowledge of music on a broad base. Above all, it's fun, there's good craic, and we have an excellent landlord.
Other sessions I go to are ITM right down the line; they're just as much fun. For the life of me, I don't see the problem.
Trevor
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How often
There really are lots of points of contact between Irish music and some of the other "celtic" musics, and I'm sure lots of us would enjoy it occasionally... I think the key word would be "moderation", so that a favourite international tune or two could be integrated gradually, if enjoyed by all.
Of course, one of the most wonderful aspects of an Irish session is the sense of community and companionship, which comes from *sharing* tunes together, so I think, on balance, no session should be overloaded with tunes that nobody can join in with.
I don't see why the tune can't be played in keeping with the proper local style though... Don't most of us learn by ear? I for one would be hard pushed to find sheet music for, say, Asturian music...
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Greenrush
Re: How often
ANALOGY OF THE DAY:
It's kindof' like if you were playing a pick-up game of football (American or real football) and someone suggested incorporating hockey sticks because they thought the normal game was too boring. Sure, you could all agree to do that and you'd enjoy playing together. And, really, who cares. And, really, why are there any rules... Because some people just really like playing football. It
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by jerball
Re: How often
Trevor, Oh course there's nothing wrong with playing different kinds of genres and styles of music in a session. I think people should play what they enjoy. Music should be a kind of sanctuary in this cruel, crazy world we live in............
Personally, I just prefer a session with music coming from the Irish repertoire (and I don't care if Jenny Picking Cockle originally comes from Scotland or wherever, it's a great tune that I love hearing in an Irish session). I want to learn and focus on Irish music, so that's what I love hearing at sessions. This Sunday I'm driving 3 hours to Boston for a lesson and then a session that I'll probably only listen to that will be pure Irish heaven in my opinion.......
I think it's interesting to hear what people like and do not like in a session. Isn't that why we visit this website : )
Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Jerball, I don't see anything wrong with being a purist. I agree with your posts : )
Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Depends on how one is going to go about being a purist, I suppose. In an Irish session, you're not going to find all Irish music all the time, and that's the way it is...a native Irish player'd laugh in your face (or much worse, behind your back) if you went on about "pure Irish music" for too long -- like almost all traditional music, it's something of a mutt -- not completely, but a bit. But of course if you wish to get into a tradition that's not your own, you have to obsess about it a bit. I agree with AngieK -- moderation is a good thing, including, of course, moderation.
Zina
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: How often
Ouch Zina!
Well, I think "they" laugh behind our backs anyway, no matter what we do or how we act or what we say ; )
Generally I keep my opinions to myself, especially when I'm in Ireland.I would never even mention the phrase "pure drop". I know better : )
But isn't this a site where we can politely voice what we think and feel? I certainly won't talk about how much I love hearing just Irish tunes at the Burren on Sunday. But I'll be secretly happy to hear 99% Irish trad music played at that session............
My mother was born in Ireland but I guess it will never really be "my own tradition" not having grown up in Ireland surrounded by the music all the time.........but that doesn't mean I can't work hard at learning the music. Aren't we all a bit obsessive about the things we love, especially in the beginning stages??
Well it's almost time to leave my prison, oops I mean office ; )
Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
"yes, but people are from places". Good point, with the onus on "places" (plural) not "a place".
No matter what some romantic might say, Traditional Irish Music did not spontaneously ooze out of the fields and the bogs and the lakes of Kilarney (where the waters are forever blue, even when the sky is grey). People make music that is influenced by the people they play with. Paddys, Celts, Bretons, Yanks, whatever.
Joyce, I'm surprised at you bemoaning the fact that it's not your tradition. Of course it is.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by ...
Re: How often
OK then, how does a tune like say, Brenda Stubbert's, or Marco's or any other 'foreign' tune get into the 'tradition' unless they are played at sessions. Or do these tunes have to be 'licensed' by the likes of Altan before you will accept them? Or don't you accept them?
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Ottery
BTW - that post was replying to Joyce and Jerball, not M.G., who slipped one in while I wasn't watching (ouch!).
The Lakes of Killarney are indeed blue, Michael, but I wish that Joyces vision of an Ireland where people are "surrounded by the music all the time" was indeed the case. Most people I know (from outside the music 'scene') who were brought up in Ireland know very little about Irish Music - though most have a relative who does!
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Ottery
Re: How often
How does any tune get into "the tradition" other than someone pushing the boat out a little and being a bit non traditional?
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by ...
Quite right Ottery, The real traditional Irish music is Country and Western
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by ...
Re: How often
Apparently it is, Michael, if my last visit to Ireland was proof! A friend of mine is really into CW, and he said it was very weird to hear CW in Ireland, because you'll hear something that sounds just like CW, but you don't recognize the song, because some Irish person wrote it. (He claims that he'd recognize just about any CW song out there.)
Anyway, Joyce, I wasn't trying to poke at you! Seriously, a big part of Irish culture seems to be not taking anything too demm seriously (am I right here, ottery?), unless of course you do. Irish culture being rather inextricably part of the musical tradition, it spills over. Besides which, since the reel came from Scotland, it seems, and the jig from either France or Italy (I've heard definitive statements about both), it's kind of tough to start talking seriously about a Pure Irish musical tradition.
Still, I have to say that I agree that if a person not part of the Irish musical culture from birth wishes to have their playing be as authentic and genuinely part of that tradition as possible, then, yeah, you're going to have to obsess a bit. Doug Greenberg talked a bit about that when I interviewed him and Buddy MacMaster, just after Mr. MacMaster pointed out Mr. Greenberg as an exception to the rule that you'll find it very difficult to play authentically if you're not born into a tradition. Mr. Greenberg says that you've got to completely immerse yourself in an artificial way, an unnatural way. And it's going to be difficult going for both you and for the people who *are* part of that tradition from birth, the latter because it's going to look like a ridiculous process to them. Who can truly understand something that one has no basis for understanding?
And, no, not to worry, Irish players don't spend all their time laughing at players of other nationalities behind their backs. Just the ones that annoy them. ;)
At any rate, I think the whole world is a place to politely say what you think and feel about anything. And for anyone to politely disagree or otherwise take exception with what you've politely said. It's what happens after that tends to be the trouble. ;)
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: How often
Just caught this one and feel compelled to dive in.
It seems, from analysing this thread, that the guardians of pure Irishness, in terms of music, lie across the Atlantic. Perhaps, as I said in a previous posting, the further away you are physically from the tradition, the more you feel the need to protect it.
Michael is right. People, not places are the key. Places are just a convention.
At the sessions where I play there is a good sprinkling of tunes from other traditions...Scots, Breton, Klezmer, French Canadian et al (Al is very popular round here as he always buys a round, doesn't leave too many stains and has a nice dog) and none of the trad. Irish players are at all precious, if I may use that term, about the way a session progresses. Perhaps we are comfortable with our tradition and don't feel threatened by another, but enriched. I can understand someone wanting to immerse themselves totally in one tradition but not, surely, to the exclusion of a few, occasional tunes from others. As a great West Indian poet said "What do they know of cricket who only cricket know"? (Substitute baseball for cricket for points west of Cork...the meaning is the same).
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Oops! Should have been "a" sick mind. I was away for indefinite articles.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: How often
I do believe the thing about playing tunes from other traditions in sessions is making them mean something. It just doesn't seem right for a fiddle player (for example) to burst into a new tune that noone else knows. If at least onother person does, that's where you start building up repertoire.
(friendly rivalry).
I believe this is what has happened with a couple of Asturian tunes in some Edimburgh sessions. I suppose Simon Bradley started playing them there and they just stayed there.
Anyway, I am probably not the best suited person for this debate, as I am from Asturias. Sessions here are comprised of Irish, Scottish, Asturian and Breton tunes. Even some Galician ones
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by AlbertoAblanedo
Re: How often
I think people probably know how I feel about this stuff from previous discussions, so I can't be bothered to repeat it all. Basically I agree with the likes of Zina, Geoff Pollitt and MG (if I've correctly understood their posts) - it makes no sense to talk about "pure" Irish music. Play what you enjoy for enjoyment's sake. Play what your session friends enjoy. You are part of the tradition whether you are aware of it or not. If someone plays a "weird-a$$" tune, extract yourself from your own behind and shut the :-o up and listen to see why they like that tune and why they feel they want to play it. Take the opportunity to have a glug of your Guinness and rest your RSI. If you don't like the tune, go to the bar or go to the loo. Don't waste your time going on this quest to discover "pure" Ireland and "pure" music - it doesn't exist! The misguided Tanya might be dead but there are still plenty Tanyas left on this site!
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: How often
Jerball, I see the footie/hockball analogy very differently because the point about Irish music is that your game of footie has been constantly evolving since people started making music. Not only have some of the players been using sticks more often than others, they've been using other things too, and some players have used them more often than others. But even so, the basic game has still been called "footie". If you get right up close to the trees, you'll see that the wood they're made from is absolutely f***ing beautiful...
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: How often
Back to the original question (and ignoring the political correctness or not of my own answer), here in the Oirish heartland of Montana USA, 90 percent of our tunes are from the center of the session repertoire, but with a sprinkling of Cape Breton, Scottish, Shetland, French Canadian, contra dance, and "unaffiliated" tunes (such as the our own original tunes and things like Early Winter by Al Cantrell, the Bus Stop Reel, Pachabel's Frolics, etc.).
Personally, I find that some tunes just fit the session atmosphere, regardless of where they came from. It's entirely reasonable to slip Ingonish or Brenda Stubbert's, for example, into a "hard core" session because these tunes are essentially indistinguishable in form and demeanor from their Irish counterparts. Enough so that many, many session players have picked them up--you'll not likely be doing a solo on those tunes.
What's more a problem to my ear is when someone trots out a nice hornpipe or barndance and plays it like a bluegrass breakdown.
Here in Montana, tunes from Galicia and Brittany aren't yet widely played. I suspect that will change, partly due to the influence of "Irish" cds featuring more of it, and partly because Jean Michelle Veillion has a personal connection to central Montana and local ears are perking up to his playing and repertoire. As has been said, we get our tunes from people, even moreso when you live in the boondocks. We rely heavily on traveling musicians to bring us fresh tunes.
With travel, recordings, and retailing going increasingly global, many trad sessions will likely follow suit, taking in influences from an expanding internationality of sources. In the face of that, some people will no doubt try to hold on to a more pure drop approach. Neither is "wrong," in my view, as long as it's consensual and people are civil about it. Find or start a session that caters to your tastes, and enjoy. If you're not sure what tunes are accepted at a particular session, then you've no business starting a hora or cajun two step. You're better off listening a while longer.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: How often
Absolutely. Well put Will. It's like I said - play what you enjoy and what your session friends enjoy.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Oh and to answer the original question, hardly ever in the sessions I go to over here in Oz - it's wall 2 wall Irish, unless SirNose and friends play their Macedonian and Breton stuff. I personally love all that and for me it lifts the session, especially since it's done so well. I'm sure bb and co. would rather play pure tunes, but that's okay because there's only a handful of us and we all like Irish tunes. I think they're missing out a bit tho'.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: How often
I'm already regretting posting comments today because it looks as though I'm trying to be argumentative when I'm not. What I should have said from the start was that the tradition needs people with views on both sides of the issue, which is the conclusion we come to every time this issue crops up in the discussions. Breton tunes are cool. I've a good mind to post some of my favourite ones but I won't.
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: How often
this site is too addicting
I'm home again on a friday night trying to learn a tune for an upcoming Ceili performance. (Beth, if you're reading this, it's the Humors of Bandon. You all danced so well tonight at practice. It was fun playing for you all.)
I remember the last time this came up in discussion. I think we decided that Irish music should evolve, but it needs to be done slowly and gently. I'm sure it took some time before Brenda Stubberts became part of the standard repertoire. And it is a cool tune! Maybe in 10 or 20 years, more Breton and Galician tunes will make their way into Irish sessions as popular standards...but it has to happen gradually. Am I making sense?
Well life is short, so play what you love and find the session that suits you best. For me that's still wall-to wall Irish : )
OK, my Amazing Slow Downer and beer are waiting for me : )
Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Maybe I'm just impatient then
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: How often
I see from all the answers that the majority don't mind mixing tunes from other traditions , and i wonder why people are less open minded (including me) when talking about leting all kinds of instruments that are not usually played in ITM sessions join in.
Amir
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by azo
Re: How often
Because "exotic" instruments tend to skew the session into something else entirely. In all the world there's probably only a handful of cellists, 5-string banjo pickers, or clarinetists who know a chunk of Irish session tunes. And even if they do know a few "standard" tunes, they're likely to sound off kilter--hornpipes played as breakdowns, jigs played too straight, etc. So when walks in the door, it's a good bet that they're not going to contribute much to the flow.
Rakish Paddy and the Bucks of Oranmore.
In other words, a group of the usual session instruments are more likely to sound like a typical session, even if they play a set of calssical caprices, than a group of didges and zithers and recorders playing (and I'm being polite here
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: How often
By the way, would you consider "Music for a Found Harmonium" by Simon Jeffes (and often played by Patrick Street) session material? I tend to go against it, but then there are other "strange" pieces that pop up in our sessions...
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by AlbertoAblanedo
Re: How often
"Music for a Found Harmonium" - yes, we play it in the Bent Brief session in Southampton, and no, it's no way traditional, but it's still session material in my book. It's played by some pretty sh*t hot musicians, though admittedly the tune is 'sexed up' a bit, and played with one hell of a lot of punch, variation and vigour. It's a bit different than the somewhat anodyne versions played elsewhere. And yes, I fully expect half TheSession community to come down on me like a ton of Lambeg drums, but all I can say is, don't knock it until you've heard it!
Jim
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: How often
Sorry Will not biting today.
It's incredible the amount of time people on this site (myself included) spend talking about what is or is not "appropriate" at Sessions. In the 20 years I've been regularly attending sessions I can recall only a handful of times this kind of thing was disused in between tunes.
Sessions will not stand still, and for my part I'm happy to go along for the ride, until I'm dust.
All the best PP
# Posted on September 5th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: How often
Somewhere in this thread, and others like it, is a very interesting debate trying desperately to emerge, and it's to do with what this "tradition" that we all talk about, and which is so central to what we do, actually IS. The 'Which tunes can we play', the 'Which instruments can we use', the repeated attempts at definition, the references to people who are 'in the tradition', the hand-wringing from the likes of joyce, who says that although her Mum is Irish, it's not really "her tradition", but who never the less is going to "probably dedicate the rest of my life to playing, studying and learning pure Irish Traditional Music." (Wow!)
What does it all mean?
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by Ottery
Re: How often
Ottery - i think we are just trying to have a friendly debate/conversation. I personally enjoyed the responses and found it to be an interesting post even if we have discussed it in the past. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Remember, this is a site where people of all ages, different cultures & countries and ability levels come together to chat about Traditional Irish Music and other types of music. Oh course we are going to talk about what tunes we like and what instruments we want to hear in a session. This is the session.org..............
Ottery, thanks a bunch for singling me out there. I know many other "yanks" who also feel passionate about the Music and have dedicated their lives to the Music or are trying to do so like myself. So don't make me sound so special : )
I almost want to slap myself for getting to the internet during my precious weekend playing time : )
Talk to you on Monday!
Joyce
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by JMH
Re: How often
Sorry Joyce, I only singled you out because you put yourself forward as the most passionate and intense (eg - "I almost want to slap myself for getting to the internet during my precious weekend playing time") - to the extent that you seemed to have adopted Irish Music almost as a vocation, despite seeing yourself as being somehow outside the tradition. I didn't mean my last post to be disparaging or sarcastic. I genuinely think there is a central argument/discussion, which we continually skirt around and touch on in these threads. I'm just not 100% sure what it is, it's like one of those thoughts you have at the tip of your tongue and can't quite grasp.
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by Ottery
Re: How often
The vast majority of people who play this stuff have to seek it out. And thats true whether you live in the pure bog country, dublin, belfast, chicago, london, sydney or where ever. Most of the Irish people I know who play did not learn it from their parents, uncles and aunts. Their parents uncles and aunts were busy lapping up the Daniel O'Donnels. The nearest most "Irish" people get to "their" tradition is Finbar Fury singing sweet sixteen, not playing his pipes.
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by ...
Re: How often
Heh, Pied, I'm a fast typist, so I actually spend very little time doing this. But I enjoy it--this sort of dialogue never happens at the sessions I go to, so it's great to have a place to air these ideas and theories, even if they never amount to much. All part of the craic.
And since I wasn't slinging chum into the waters, I'm not sure what you thought I wanted you to bite....
Ottery, I've run into similar recurring discussions about entirely different topics (the field of dispute resolution, what is community, etc.), and finally hit on a way of thinking about it: Trad Irish music is like a mix of art and the weather--everyone knows what they like, but nobody can do anything about it.
I also like the idea that mystery is more important than fact. Our human brains apparently thrive on pondering the unknown (and perhaps unknowable)--that's what pulls us forward in science, the arts, and probably religion too. So we like talking about stuff that's hard to define or draw solid lines around. It's a great mind-stretching experience to puzzle over why there's music, why there are so many different types of music (or are there?), why it affects us so deeply, etc. There is a kind of magic in this music, and rambling threads like this one help me connect to that on more than just the immediate, emotional level of playing. Believe in the magic, and your playing will be.
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: How often
Will, I believe!
.....
Darn! my playing is just as leaden as ever!
Yes, I guess you're right though. The 'thought on the tip of my tongue' is destined to stay there, where it belongs. People mostly write stuff on threads like this because have a feeling in themselves they want to express, and which they'de like to express by maybe playing a tune or something, but they can't because they're at work or it's 3'oclock in the morning or something, and this is the next best thing... me included, I guess.
You're right about the magic in the music. I re-learned Swinging On The Gate today, a tune I'd completely forgotten about for literally years until a new person came along to our Wednesday night session and played it. I couldn't remember various parts at all, so I printed a copy off this site. It was actually quite an awkward flute tune, as read off the dots, and it wasn't until I stuck them to one side and all the little turns and the way I put a roll in here and there to make it playable, that suddenly it became a tune again. And the mind-map I have of the tune, in effect the route map through it on the flute, is quite different from what might be deduced from a bald reading of the dots, which is really a fiddle setting. And the gradual coming back of that tune, both with the help of and despite the dots, was sort of magical.
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by Ottery
Re: How often
Swinging On The Gate! - what a brill tune! I got it from Andybanjo, for which, thanks, Andy!
I didn't find it too bad to get to grips with on the flute - then again I'm on the silver fellow, and maybe I haven't sussed it properly.
Ottery, if your playing is as good as how you write, we'll have to meet up sometime - I feel there's another thesession (London chapter) brewing itself into reality sometime soon...could you make it down to the Smoke?
Next up - I said I'd give a reply to jerball's post, where he asserted that sessions should be near enough all about Irish music, cos that's where this notion (ie, of having a session, in perhaps a pub)comes from. Now, I have to be honest, and admit that I've only just scrolled down the posts and read just a few, so I may have missed some of the best stuff. But I reckon most of what I wanted to reply has been said, so no point in re-stating it. (Sorry Jer - for denying you the opportunity to lock horns!)
But I think we have the same answer, but coming in from opposite sides.
This is my take on it.
If your playing in an Irish session, most of the tunes should be within the cannon of ubiquitous Irish session tunes. "Most"? what's that? -- At least 50%.-- In reality, this turns out to be more like 90%. Some "Irish" sessions I've been to recently in London have been merely a succession of -- and I kid you not -- 9-12 Sets of reels in a row. What the F*ck? They don't diahorreah out all their reels in a one-ner like that in Ireland. They have nothing to prove. They're much more laid back. Good *Irish* Irish sessions, I've noticed, are more receptive to different tunes, so long as they're played nicely, neatly, rather than being Performed, --Hey Look at me! I know some Gallego stuff! --
I'm mad into Irish trad. That's my homebase. Where I live and play I don't think we need to wrap up The Music in too many protective layers, because it's robust enough to survive. Especially these days. I'm all for pulling in some stuff from Brittanny (I, personally, don't see too much of a link between that and Irish music, but from recently observing them at Lorient, I have to admire their spirit!) --- similarly, with the Galicians. I'm not so sure about all this pan-Celtic brotherhood thing. I think that's a marketing ploy. It worries me that so many people fall for it, without investigating, or thinking it through, for themselves.
I'm not an ethomusicologist, nor am I a linguist, but OK, pipes have survived till now in the present musical cultures of both B and G, but there were already pipes in France, Spain and Italy. So they do lovely little Schottisches. Nothing celtic about that.
My view is, if your session can take it, and you pump enough heart and soul into your interpretation of a G- or B-, or Italian, Swedish or Gypsy, tunes, then do it. As long as they are regarded as minority wrt Irish music -- and come to think of it, Scottish music.
Hope I've said all I meant to!
Danny.
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: How often
Many interesting angles have come out in this thread although like Danny I haven't had time to read all of them. One of these was the attempt to define Irish trad music and what can or cannot be played at a session. This argument leads nowhere as any attempt to draw up a playlist is doomed to failure. For example the origins of some well know great session tunes such as the Tarbolton, Miss McCleod, Lady Ann, Lucy Campbell, etc are far more likely to have been from Scotland but they have been adapted and absorbed into the Irish tradition. Like the comedian who says of his jokes, "It's the way you tell them" so also with music, "it's the way you play them". I sometimes think people can get too analytical with regard to traditional music - it may sound a bit simplistic but I think it's true that you'll know it when you hear it particularly if you take examples such as Joe Cooley, Bobby Casey, Tommy Peoples, Tony McMahon and many more.
As they say "variety is the spice of life" and the odd item (played well) from someone elses tradition can often be very welcome providing the overall balance of the session is maintained (ie the main emphasis is on Irish traditional material). Equally I can't think of anything much worse than a night of "wall-to-wall" reels as again there is so much more in the tradition to be enjoyed whether it be jigs, mazurkas, hornpipes, or the dance music of Sliabh Luachra. However, with the latter care is also required as contrary to the belief that polkas and slides are ideal for beginners (may account for the fact that many sessions rarely play them as images immediately come to mind of hesitant versions of Peg Ryan's - the fA BA, fA BA, d2 ef, ed BA one, etc) there is an art in playing this type of music properly as demonstrated by the likes of Johnny O'Leary, The Begley's and other musicians from the area.
Maybe I' straying from the original thread but what's really anathema to me is the individual who inflicts his ill-prepared party-piece on the session which in my experience is nearly always The Tamlin Reel, a 6 part version of the Mason's Apron or Peter Street (and before anyone jumps in to defend these tunes I did say "ill-prepared" versions)
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by Bannerman
Re: How often
Hi Danny,
I fear I probably (well, definitely) write better than I play, but I could probably make it down to a London session one of these days.
I wasn't trying to say that Swinging on the gate was an awkward tune on the flute, more that a the dots of a fiddle setting were incompatible with the mental image I had of the tune. I don't know if you find this when learning a tune, but I find that my mental image of the tune changes considerably from the time I first hear it to the time I'd say I know it. It sometimes happens that what I think are the defining parts of the tune when I start to learn it are not the key mental signposts when I come to play it. Does that make sense?
And I agree with you about sessions with massive reel sets. What a waste! But people (frequently banjo players in my experience) get carried away with the excitement of it all and do silly things. The worst aspect of it is that it isn't musical, after a while it just becomes a beat going with a varying tune over the top like one of those wretched disco compilations. A nine reel set can't have any symmetry.
# Posted on September 6th 2003 by Ottery
Re: How often
>But if I don
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by MichaelBolton
And what we do here in Toronto...
...depends on the session. Irish music forms the core. At the Dora Keogh, early in the evening, you'll tend to hear almost exclusively Irish music. (One of the keystone players has a special disaffection for Scottish tunes in particular, I hear.) Later in the evening, things might get a little more pluralistic, incorporating a bit of Breton and a fair amount of Scottish and Cape Breton tunes (the latter being quite predictable for a Canadian pub). The other significant session in town, at the Victory, is more broad and less exclusively Irish. I go to them both; I love them both.
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: How often
Talking about tradition, there's the story that a notice appeared in the quadrangle of one of the colleges of an ancient English university. It said, "As from the beginning of next term it will be the tradition that only Fellows of the College will be permitted to walk on the grass".
Trevor
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How often
So, was that little notice put up next to the "Keep off the grass" sign?... in which case, they must have kept ON the grass to put the notice there......
# Posted on September 7th 2003 by Rudall the time