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Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
OK.. As an 'emerging' box player, there are a couple of issues. First obviously is how to learn/practice new tunes. The second, is how to practice the learnt things so the 'little grey cells' can call them back on demand.
To the first, it seems that short practices seem to burn things in better than long efforts... What is everyone's take on that?
To the second, it seems that the learnt ones need to be regularly revisited... Problem there is Herself the teacher and other Educational scholars always warn about doing too many things in a learning sit down. Does that apply to keeping fresh on the learnt things?
I practice once a day for 2 hours, but sometimes get a short one in after getting back from the Salt Mine in the evening before Herself starts asking what I am going to make for dinner. And sometimes, if the Holy Croatian Nuns have made her day bad enough and she wants and early repast, I will get a few moments in while the evenings fare burns itself to the bottom of the pot. It seems that the short evening efforts result in the best results for the 'grey cells' ability stay ahead of the relentless slide into more lethargic pace some of them seem to work at as I mature into old-fartdom..
I know that this has been discussed many different ways. But since I am just getting over one Plateau and starting to move towards the next one...it is good to ask the advice of those who have been there or on another plateau.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
"Playing" is about things one can do. "Practice" is about things one can't do, yet.
There's no point in practicing doing things badly, they don't get any better.
Plateaus happen, as we all know.
Some problems are best sneaked up on from another direction.
(Particularly relevant to fiddles, but maybe wider.) Don't assume a problem is in one hand, it may well be in the other! (Particularly the right hand for fiddlers.)
If something seems too hard, it may be.
Some problems need foundations built up elsewhere, so it may be best to just leave it and come back months later.
Slowing things down doesn't always help (but this is likely to be a "foundations" issue, as above.)
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
i've been playing fiddle for just over 3 years, so i still consider myself a rather 'new' player...
usually i try to get at least 2 practice sessions in a day, though i think taking a break for a day often helps certain things seep in.
i normally start my practice by doing scale exercises, bowing exercises and just getting my ears working as well as my hands and fingers. playing with drones + chords seems to help this alot.
i notice a real difference in the rest of my practice session if i start with these exercises rather than just jumping in and practicing the songs right away.
one tip i always thought was a good one from my first teacher was to always end a practice session with something you can play well and will feel accomplished with. i think it makes going back for a second session later on a little more appealing.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
i've been told by one fine musician i know that there is no substitute for playing the tunes slowly. and i know that if i try to play a new tune too fast, i will skip notes and 'smoothe' the tune out, or even play wrong notes that wind up sounding right to me after i've burned them in.
also, if i work on a new tune, and it doesn't fall together right off, i often find that coming back to it later, even a week (or more!) later, it makes more sense to me. i think my brain keeps picking at it unconsciously. play a tune before you go to bed -- then try it when you get up in the morning.
these notions are a little off topic, but might be useful.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I practice each morning for about 45 minutes. I work on the new material frist very slowly zeroing in on difficlut parts, the last 10 minutes or so play a couple of tunes I like.
Then I practice the new material about 20 minutes in the evening before just playing for enjoyment.
I feel the morning practice really sticks with me. I guess the old brain is fresh then. Do what works best for you but most of all enjoy it.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I like the mornings also.
When I do the post-Salt Mine play...it seems to take a bit to just 'regroup' on something. At first I feel like I never played the blasted thing before. Then things slowly come back... Butthe next mornig, it seems that the evening practice firmed things up.
What is odd though. Regardless of complexity, there are some songs that fall into place while others don't no matter how much I practice. I am amazed that a couple of lessons that were supposed to be difficult, I learned then very quickly. And things that are supposed to be easy, I play for weeks and then put them aside in frustration-or out of boredom, and weeks later forget that I even learned them.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I try to play through as many different tunes as possible every
day and constantly learn new ones. That way you're always
learning new patterns and working old patterns in a new context.
When you go back to previous tunes that used to be hard to play,
they get easier without putting much effort into them.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
One way to make practice more productive is to set small achievable goals for each session. You'll likely get more out of ten minutes spent troubleshooting and refining a specific technique, phrase, or concept than aimlessly just playing tunes. That said, for this music, I almost always play the tunes themselves to hone technique or whatever. So to someone else, it might sound like I'm just playing tunes, but really I'm concentrating on a specific aspect of playing. It may be as specific as distinguishing more clearly between C natural and C sharp and all the micro-tones between. Or exploring all the options for bowing a four-note phrase. It helps to have some at least quasi-measurable goal to shoot for and keep me on task for 10 or 15 minutes.
And I agree that slow playing is a powerful method for improving almost anything. If you want to really nail something, play it slowly--really s-l-o-w-l-y--and don't let anything escape your notice.
Another angle is the 80/20 rule. Instead of practicing the 80 percent of stuff that will give you 20 percent improvement, drill into the 20 percent that will lead to an 80 percent improvement. In other words, if your rhythm or timing isn't steady and full of nyah, then don't waste too much time on perfecting your rolls or triplets--your playing won't sound good no matter how crisp the twiddly bits are. If you focus on improving your rhythm and timing, not only will your overall playing be more musical, the twiddly bits will fall into place more easily.
Also, as a music coach, I encourage people to catch themselves doing something well and build on that. It's a more constructive approach than dwelling on your mistakes and shortcomings. Certainly listen fully to yourself and acknowledge what aspects need to be improved. But learn to enjoy what you do well and use that to inspire yourself to play to your strengths.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
If you want to get something into your brain cells try practising without the instrument. Imagine playing the tune. Where exactly is this finger going? What is the sound? What is the other hand doing? [Don't answer if you don't want to] When you come to a bit you can't imagine, that'll be a bit where you are struggling. If you can get through a whole tune in your mind, you are getting there. You may also find that this procedure makes you want to get up and play.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
In the early stages a beginner is learning technique and that's basically all about learning neuro-muscular control - which isn't achieved in 5 minutes, but more like 2 years minimum for something like the fiddle. And learning how to really listen to and think about what they're doing.
So it makes sense for a beginner to do little and often, concentrating on one thing at a time ("concentrating" is the operative concept). Later on, the player doesn't need to think about technique and so can afford to spend much longer periods working on a tune.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
gam - you said "try practising without the instrument. Imagine playing the tune".
That is excellent advice which I'm going to try.
zippydw - with ref to the "recall" issue, I find the tunes I originally learnt by ear (from my teacher or session) are embedded in my brain far better than those I learnt from the dots. (I had a classical background so I relied on the dots a lot at the beginning.)
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Mostly I like to practice for 30-60 minutes at a time, except whistle. Because my wife doesn't like to hear practicing on the whistle (and I can't say I blame her, redoing the parts that don't work, over and over, is not a pleasant thing to listen to), my whistle practicing is limited to whatever time she is running an errand, taking a shower, walking the dog, etc, etc.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
My best practices have been in the morning when I'm by myself and I play a tune and then have a swallow of oatmeal and coffee. Breakfast and playing can last a couple of hours.
When my stomach is happy, my brain works.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
For the last couple weeks I feel like I've kind of gotten somewhere practicing. There are moments in a two hour practice session where the tunes seem to have a bit of "nyah" to them. Then I go out to the pub and backslide into my usual sh*te standard of playing in spite of every effort not to. Does anyone else experience this?
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I used to use the below technique when working with guitar, and now use it for my fiddle practice.
I will identify something I cannot do, it may be a phrase, right hand technique, or a set of notes or ornamentation, and focus on that phrase. I then work out how slowly I have to play it, so that I can comfortably (no tensing of muscles or strain) play it for five full minutes. This may mean the dreaded metronome, (or perhaps pogo stick). Then when 5 minutes are up (or the metronome has wound down), try the same again later in the practice, at a slightly faster velocity.
I equate it (or at least try to rationalise the madness in this) to a swimmer or runner training for a race. You don't just do one lap as fast as you can, and call it a day. You tend to set yourself a target of a few miles, and work through it at a steady pace. Your stamina increases, the speed at which you are moving allows you to concentrate on good technique which converts into good muscle memory, and overall your "top speed" will then improve.
The sheer repetitiveness of the exercise may be a bit much for all but those with the deepest OCD, but I find of all the practice techniques I use it's by far the most effective.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Sometimes, the more I practise the worse I get.
Quite often, I'll spend hours trying to work on a new tune(or set of these) only to "crash and burn" when I give them an airing in public. On the other hand, I find that can revisit these at a later date and they don't pose any problem (Though they still may do to the listener ).
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Right enough Jon J. Learning stuff is like glue or concrete! There's a long "setting" or "curing" time! Something only recently learned or "perfected" is like glue that has half dried. Put on any pressure and it'll fail or crack. A month or two seems to be the "setting time" for music skills!
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend to everyone that you get "The Ways of the Hand" by David Sudnow. It is a delightful fugue on the author's effort to learn how to play jazz piano. He describes the process by which the brain teaches the hands how to play, then gets out of the way (or not).
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Thanks for the advice.
Strange. I've also found my best practice/lessons come after wolfing down a Sausage McMuffin with egg from MCDonalds. A Freind in the dietary business says that hte brain likes the protein and (emotionally the fat). But my poor arteries can't take it!
I've found that the TomB-R method seems to have some validity. I am going back and reviewing the things Iove learned this year, and while it takes a few moments to get intellectually organized about a tune...it does seem to come back and takes less effort.
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
These practice tips come from a famous jazz trumpet player but are applicable to any instrument. They are so obvious and straight forward. Being disciplined with your practice can be very hard but it's the only way to get serious improvement.
Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
OK.. As an 'emerging' box player, there are a couple of issues. First obviously is how to learn/practice new tunes. The second, is how to practice the learnt things so the 'little grey cells' can call them back on demand.
To the first, it seems that short practices seem to burn things in better than long efforts... What is everyone's take on that?
To the second, it seems that the learnt ones need to be regularly revisited... Problem there is Herself the teacher and other Educational scholars always warn about doing too many things in a learning sit down. Does that apply to keeping fresh on the learnt things?
I practice once a day for 2 hours, but sometimes get a short one in after getting back from the Salt Mine in the evening before Herself starts asking what I am going to make for dinner. And sometimes, if the Holy Croatian Nuns have made her day bad enough and she wants and early repast, I will get a few moments in while the evenings fare burns itself to the bottom of the pot. It seems that the short evening efforts result in the best results for the 'grey cells' ability stay ahead of the relentless slide into more lethargic pace some of them seem to work at as I mature into old-fartdom..
I know that this has been discussed many different ways. But since I am just getting over one Plateau and starting to move towards the next one...it is good to ask the advice of those who have been there or on another plateau.
Thanks for any thoughts.
# Posted on March 13th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
"Playing" is about things one can do. "Practice" is about things one can't do, yet.
There's no point in practicing doing things badly, they don't get any better.
Plateaus happen, as we all know.
Some problems are best sneaked up on from another direction.
(Particularly relevant to fiddles, but maybe wider.) Don't assume a problem is in one hand, it may well be in the other! (Particularly the right hand for fiddlers.)
If something seems too hard, it may be.
Some problems need foundations built up elsewhere, so it may be best to just leave it and come back months later.
Slowing things down doesn't always help (but this is likely to be a "foundations" issue, as above.)
# Posted on March 13th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
i've been playing fiddle for just over 3 years, so i still consider myself a rather 'new' player...
usually i try to get at least 2 practice sessions in a day, though i think taking a break for a day often helps certain things seep in.
i normally start my practice by doing scale exercises, bowing exercises and just getting my ears working as well as my hands and fingers. playing with drones + chords seems to help this alot.
i notice a real difference in the rest of my practice session if i start with these exercises rather than just jumping in and practicing the songs right away.
one tip i always thought was a good one from my first teacher was to always end a practice session with something you can play well and will feel accomplished with. i think it makes going back for a second session later on a little more appealing.
# Posted on March 13th 2009 by casteelsm
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
i've been told by one fine musician i know that there is no substitute for playing the tunes slowly. and i know that if i try to play a new tune too fast, i will skip notes and 'smoothe' the tune out, or even play wrong notes that wind up sounding right to me after i've burned them in.
also, if i work on a new tune, and it doesn't fall together right off, i often find that coming back to it later, even a week (or more!) later, it makes more sense to me. i think my brain keeps picking at it unconsciously. play a tune before you go to bed -- then try it when you get up in the morning.
these notions are a little off topic, but might be useful.
# Posted on March 13th 2009 by 'tinamatt
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I practice each morning for about 45 minutes. I work on the new material frist very slowly zeroing in on difficlut parts, the last 10 minutes or so play a couple of tunes I like.
Then I practice the new material about 20 minutes in the evening before just playing for enjoyment.
I feel the morning practice really sticks with me. I guess the old brain is fresh then. Do what works best for you but most of all enjoy it.
Mary
# Posted on March 13th 2009 by Antikhntr
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I like the mornings also.
When I do the post-Salt Mine play...it seems to take a bit to just 'regroup' on something. At first I feel like I never played the blasted thing before. Then things slowly come back... Butthe next mornig, it seems that the evening practice firmed things up.
What is odd though. Regardless of complexity, there are some songs that fall into place while others don't no matter how much I practice. I am amazed that a couple of lessons that were supposed to be difficult, I learned then very quickly. And things that are supposed to be easy, I play for weeks and then put them aside in frustration-or out of boredom, and weeks later forget that I even learned them.
# Posted on March 13th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I try to play through as many different tunes as possible every
day and constantly learn new ones. That way you're always
learning new patterns and working old patterns in a new context.
When you go back to previous tunes that used to be hard to play,
they get easier without putting much effort into them.
I also mess around with the phrasing and accents.
# Posted on March 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
One way to make practice more productive is to set small achievable goals for each session. You'll likely get more out of ten minutes spent troubleshooting and refining a specific technique, phrase, or concept than aimlessly just playing tunes. That said, for this music, I almost always play the tunes themselves to hone technique or whatever. So to someone else, it might sound like I'm just playing tunes, but really I'm concentrating on a specific aspect of playing. It may be as specific as distinguishing more clearly between C natural and C sharp and all the micro-tones between. Or exploring all the options for bowing a four-note phrase. It helps to have some at least quasi-measurable goal to shoot for and keep me on task for 10 or 15 minutes.
And I agree that slow playing is a powerful method for improving almost anything. If you want to really nail something, play it slowly--really s-l-o-w-l-y--and don't let anything escape your notice.
Another angle is the 80/20 rule. Instead of practicing the 80 percent of stuff that will give you 20 percent improvement, drill into the 20 percent that will lead to an 80 percent improvement. In other words, if your rhythm or timing isn't steady and full of nyah, then don't waste too much time on perfecting your rolls or triplets--your playing won't sound good no matter how crisp the twiddly bits are. If you focus on improving your rhythm and timing, not only will your overall playing be more musical, the twiddly bits will fall into place more easily.
Also, as a music coach, I encourage people to catch themselves doing something well and build on that. It's a more constructive approach than dwelling on your mistakes and shortcomings. Certainly listen fully to yourself and acknowledge what aspects need to be improved. But learn to enjoy what you do well and use that to inspire yourself to play to your strengths.
# Posted on March 14th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
If you want to get something into your brain cells try practising without the instrument. Imagine playing the tune. Where exactly is this finger going? What is the sound? What is the other hand doing? [Don't answer if you don't want to
] When you come to a bit you can't imagine, that'll be a bit where you are struggling. If you can get through a whole tune in your mind, you are getting there. You may also find that this procedure makes you want to get up and play.
# Posted on March 14th 2009 by gam
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
As Patrick just said, "I feel I never really know a tune until I can sing it."
As the great Shetland player and teacher Tom Anderson said "You should never learn a tune you don't know." !!!
And as Phil Cunningham says, "We're going to play something we know, because we've tried playing things we don't know, and it does'nae worrk!"
# Posted on March 14th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
In the early stages a beginner is learning technique and that's basically all about learning neuro-muscular control - which isn't achieved in 5 minutes, but more like 2 years minimum for something like the fiddle. And learning how to really listen to and think about what they're doing.
So it makes sense for a beginner to do little and often, concentrating on one thing at a time ("concentrating" is the operative concept). Later on, the player doesn't need to think about technique and so can afford to spend much longer periods working on a tune.
# Posted on March 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
gam - you said "try practising without the instrument. Imagine playing the tune".
That is excellent advice which I'm going to try.
zippydw - with ref to the "recall" issue, I find the tunes I originally learnt by ear (from my teacher or session) are embedded in my brain far better than those I learnt from the dots. (I had a classical background so I relied on the dots a lot at the beginning.)
# Posted on March 14th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Mostly I like to practice for 30-60 minutes at a time, except whistle. Because my wife doesn't like to hear practicing on the whistle (and I can't say I blame her, redoing the parts that don't work, over and over, is not a pleasant thing to listen to), my whistle practicing is limited to whatever time she is running an errand, taking a shower, walking the dog, etc, etc.
# Posted on March 14th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
My best practices have been in the morning when I'm by myself and I play a tune and then have a swallow of oatmeal and coffee. Breakfast and playing can last a couple of hours.
When my stomach is happy, my brain works.
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by Leendah
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
For the last couple weeks I feel like I've kind of gotten somewhere practicing. There are moments in a two hour practice session where the tunes seem to have a bit of "nyah" to them. Then I go out to the pub and backslide into my usual sh*te standard of playing in spite of every effort not to. Does anyone else experience this?
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
yep
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
try another 6-8 hours a day!!!
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
I used to use the below technique when working with guitar, and now use it for my fiddle practice.
I will identify something I cannot do, it may be a phrase, right hand technique, or a set of notes or ornamentation, and focus on that phrase. I then work out how slowly I have to play it, so that I can comfortably (no tensing of muscles or strain) play it for five full minutes. This may mean the dreaded metronome, (or perhaps pogo stick). Then when 5 minutes are up (or the metronome has wound down), try the same again later in the practice, at a slightly faster velocity.
I equate it (or at least try to rationalise the madness in this) to a swimmer or runner training for a race. You don't just do one lap as fast as you can, and call it a day. You tend to set yourself a target of a few miles, and work through it at a steady pace. Your stamina increases, the speed at which you are moving allows you to concentrate on good technique which converts into good muscle memory, and overall your "top speed" will then improve.
The sheer repetitiveness of the exercise may be a bit much for all but those with the deepest OCD, but I find of all the practice techniques I use it's by far the most effective.
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by ciaranbradley
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Sometimes, the more I practise the worse I get.
).
Quite often, I'll spend hours trying to work on a new tune(or set of these) only to "crash and burn" when I give them an airing in public. On the other hand, I find that can revisit these at a later date and they don't pose any problem (Though they still may do to the listener
Here's one I prepared earlier
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3597
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Right enough Jon J. Learning stuff is like glue or concrete! There's a long "setting" or "curing" time! Something only recently learned or "perfected" is like glue that has half dried. Put on any pressure and it'll fail or crack. A month or two seems to be the "setting time" for music skills!
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Nice metaphor, TomB-R. I liken it to leaving something to "brew", but your version is much better.
# Posted on March 15th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend to everyone that you get "The Ways of the Hand" by David Sudnow. It is a delightful fugue on the author's effort to learn how to play jazz piano. He describes the process by which the brain teaches the hands how to play, then gets out of the way (or not).
# Posted on March 16th 2009 by Dave McGrath
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Thanks for the advice.
Strange. I've also found my best practice/lessons come after wolfing down a Sausage McMuffin with egg from MCDonalds. A Freind in the dietary business says that hte brain likes the protein and (emotionally the fat). But my poor arteries can't take it!
I've found that the TomB-R method seems to have some validity. I am going back and reviewing the things Iove learned this year, and while it takes a few moments to get intellectually organized about a tune...it does seem to come back and takes less effort.
# Posted on March 16th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
These practice tips come from a famous jazz trumpet player but are applicable to any instrument. They are so obvious and straight forward. Being disciplined with your practice can be very hard but it's the only way to get serious improvement.
http://www.trumpetlessons.net/pract/wyntons12ways.html
# Posted on March 16th 2009 by Colm85
Re: Advice requested about effective practice...No particular instrument in mind
Easy for him to say
# Posted on March 16th 2009 by zippydw