Does anyone know any session in Edinburgh in which they play mainly Scottish music at an intermediate to advanced level?
Also, is the repertoire contemporary or more oldish stuff? (I prefer the later).
In short, Sandy Bells on Wednesday tends to be more Scottish and they play "oldish" stuff (not sure what you mean by that). The Antiquary on a Thursday is more or less Scottish, depending on who shows up. The Royal Oak on a Sunday afternoon is either Irish or Scottish, depending on who shows up, and the Reverie on Tuesday is either Irish or Scottish, depending on who shows up. The contemporary-ness or not of the repertoire of all those sessions varies considerably depending on, yes, who shows up.
I've never known Scottish sessions to make much distinction between older stuff and recent compositions but the balance is usually in favour of the "oldish stuff"
Most of the sessions I listed play a combination of both. I don't know anyone (at those sessions anyway) who bothers to make distinctions between old and new tunes -- they just play the tunes they like. Are Gordon Duncan tunes "oldish?" What about ones composed in the 1980s and 90s?
Sunday afternoon in Sandy Bells is very Scottish with lots of "oldish" stuff. It's usually "moothie" led although you'll get all instruments there depending on "who comes along".
You'll get newer tunes too but they generally to be from the older repertoires.
I was at one session once (actually three separate sessions not quite merging into one) where there were a bunch of young musos who only played modern, mostly scottish stuff, in sets straight off of CDs.
I don't think it was snobbery on their part, I think they genuinely didn't know any of the older tunes, even the most common onces like "the maind behind the bar" etc.
I would say there is a big difference in the repertoire of those under around 30 and those over that age in Scotland. The older generation have a bigger percentage of Irish tunes than now. I think the main reason for this would be the RSAMD, the Feis movement and prolific contemporary composers like Gordon Duncan, Charlie MacKerron, Fred Morrison, Donald Shaw, etc. In some sessions the tunes can be almost all Scottish as opposed to twenty or so years ago when it could be as much as half and half.
Interesting observation, Bogman. Why would the RSAMD and Feis movement cause younger players to play more contemporary Scottish tunes? What goes on in those organizations which lends itself to that?
I know a fair few people who have never attended RSAMD or been part of the Feis but who have a repertoire very heavily oriented towards modern Scottish tunes. To me it seems that these are the tunes getting played, so they are the ones people learn. The more they are played, the more people will play them. Why these sorts of tunes get that momentum (Im not saying they aren't good tunes -- many are) and not say, old Donegal fiddle tunes, I've not been around long enough to even have a theory. But I guess that's the question.
I've definitely walked into a session and had people look at me nervously and say, "Uhhh.... we don't really know any Irish tunes."
It's not that hard to explain. It's a simple fact that when I was learning traditional music - early 1970s - there was much more exciting music coming out of Ireland then than Scotland. At that time we were almost totally reliant on commercial recordings , and the odd radio or TV programme for building a repertoire. Far more recordings of traditional music were being made in Ireland than in Scotland. Scottish bands such as "Silly Wizard", "Battlefield Band", "Tannahill Weavers" were very much influenced , and inspired , by what was coming out of Ireland at the time. The number of recordings of traditional music being released in Scotland today is almost equal to that in Ireland, so that's bound to have an effect on the current repertoire. I'm not so sure that the effect of the Feis and RSAMD is greater than the overall availability of music by the mass media and the internet. But hey - Scottish musicians playing Scottish music has to be a good thing, and I'd rather they played Scottish tunes well than Irish tunes badly.
Sorry if this has strayed a bit from the original discussion.
Hopefully though people will grow out of *only* playing sets of recent tunes as recorded on the latest CD, and exactly the same arrangements. Otherwise it can be like going to a tribute band concert. Then again if that is what the kids want to do thne fairplay to them, everyone is entitled to their fun.
Er, I did think NOT Jon Jay. That's what I posted. But thanks for clearing up any ambiguity that you may have percieved
Although it *could* have been described as particularly bad manners on the particular occasion I was hinting at above.
Ok, well seein' as you aske...
...one week just before xmas, without any prior contact (well maybe with the pub, but not the session) a bus (literally a hired bus) of musos we'd never met turned up at our then session. The guys that turned up were in two quite distinct, though friendly camps: a group of about a dozen in a singesr circle complete with wrods written out on refence sheets, and about a dozen late-teens/early 20s instrumentalists that played exclusively (though not I hasten to add through snobbery) only modern scottish tunes as featured on the latest CD.
Twas an odd night to say the least as there were a simuilar number of regulars (95% trad irish repertior, all old friends) and a couple of visitors back from the states on a catch up re-union.
Effectively three sessions ran that night: the singers & two mutually exclusive instrumental crowd (both of whom did try to find common ground).
Luckily we're quite a laid back bunch of people and saw the funny side of it. The visitors were all nice guys and the night was quite fun.
But....
How lacking in social skills is it to hire a bus (for fecks sake!) and parachute 20-odd visitors into a session without any arrangement? The visitors told us, that this was an annual event. Ever xmas they would "visit" a session in another town that they found out about through listings/the web/wherever. Usually in Scotland, sometimes in Ireland: "Happy Xmas One and All! We've come to take over your party"
Of course, it's bad form to hijack a session and impose your own tunes. There's no harm in musicians playing Irish music in Scottish pubs either especially if they werre there first.
Actually, we played two scottish tunes last night. Newly composed, well, 25 years anyway. They were in A of course, but neither of them had any G sharps, which makes it OK
That said, I have been informed at one point that all Dmix jigs sound the same so it is all down to perspective.
Last night we were balancing Scottish and Irish tunes very well, but it only worked because a few folk in the session know zillions of tunes from both sides of the Irish Sea. More often than not, sessions with a mix of Scottish and Irish players (this is sort of modern construction since a lot of the same tunes can be found in 18th and 19th C Scottish and Irish tune collections but I digress) end up in Chris' two-sessions-in-one scenario. The music bounces between two or more groups or individuals and never gets any energy as a cohesive unit.
And I maintain that all (or at least a lot of) D mix jigs do sound the same, if played badly they are a muddy drag and if they have 5 or even 7(!!!) parts then I want to cry!
Spear, I didn't mean the RSAMD and Feis movements cause younger players to play more contemporary tunes but that it's almost all Scottish tunes that are taught at a Feis, and rightly so. RSAMD studens, as you would expect specialize in Scottish tunes as you would expect. That coupled with new compositions have brought about the change IMO. I agree with Kenny in that 20 or 30 years ago the more exiting music was coming out of Ireland and folk learned lots of Irish tunes. Coming from Skye, I and people around me learned extensive Scottish repertoires first coming from a ceilidh and piping background but were lured by the exiting new (to us) souds from Ireland. There were few folkie style bands other than the ones Kenny mentioned who really caught the attention. Now there are lots and lots of bands to all sorts of tastes to be heard playing Scottish tunes.
The older tunes didn't disappear, they just went out of circulation for a while. Lots of really great Scottish tunes, despite Lligs derogatory remarks, are making a comeback at the moment as folk look for fresh things to play. The sheer number of people playing trad here is mind-boggling compared to when I was younger and everybody discovers at least some tunes new to them. Scottish tunes have even less info than Irish tunes when written down IMO and despite thousands of old tunes in collections you really have to hear them to find their beauty. So with a lot more bands recording old and new Scottish tunes it's hardly surprising that younger players are playing tunes that are more closely linked to their own culture. Irish tunes are really part of the tradition here now so it's fine if there are Scottish sessions with lots of Irish tunes but it would be wrong to 'expect' Irish tunes at a Scottish session. We have our own history, regional styles and culture too.
Yes, I was surprised at all the Irish music in Scotland when I first arrived in the 70s but it sounds right what Kenny said, that most people learned off , or were inspired by, recordings, and Ireland is where all the new recordings were coming from at the time
Multi-part pipe tunes translated to fiddle, or that kind of thing, with slight but crucial variations between parts sound great to me
In spite of finding Michael's comments funny, I actually do play some Scottish tunes (some of you lot have seen my attempts) and obviously like them -- otherwise I wouldn't play them. The origins of many of the tunes is debateable anyway. And as I alluded in my last post, putting boxes around the music doesn't really make sense since tunes have freely wandered between Ireland and Scotland with emigration. But the reality now is that there are boxes around it. I'm working out which sessions I get on well at, whilst playing tunes I want to play based on whether I like them and the physical limitations of the instrument (there are a few) rather than anything else. It just so happens sessions I get on best often (but not always) have more Irish tunes.
Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Hi,
Does anyone know any session in Edinburgh in which they play mainly Scottish music at an intermediate to advanced level?
Also, is the repertoire contemporary or more oldish stuff? (I prefer the later).
Thanks.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by Gallowglass
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
In short, Sandy Bells on Wednesday tends to be more Scottish and they play "oldish" stuff (not sure what you mean by that). The Antiquary on a Thursday is more or less Scottish, depending on who shows up. The Royal Oak on a Sunday afternoon is either Irish or Scottish, depending on who shows up, and the Reverie on Tuesday is either Irish or Scottish, depending on who shows up. The contemporary-ness or not of the repertoire of all those sessions varies considerably depending on, yes, who shows up.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
There are a few more about town as well.. I am sure other members will weigh in.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Thanks.
By "oldish stuff" I mean just tunes that have not been composed in the last few years.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by Gallowglass
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
I've never known Scottish sessions to make much distinction between older stuff and recent compositions but the balance is usually in favour of the "oldish stuff"
# Posted on March 10th 2009 by Bren
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Most of the sessions I listed play a combination of both. I don't know anyone (at those sessions anyway) who bothers to make distinctions between old and new tunes -- they just play the tunes they like. Are Gordon Duncan tunes "oldish?" What about ones composed in the 1980s and 90s?
# Posted on March 10th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Sunday afternoon in Sandy Bells is very Scottish with lots of "oldish" stuff. It's usually "moothie" led although you'll get all instruments there depending on "who comes along".
You'll get newer tunes too but they generally to be from the older repertoires.
# Posted on March 10th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
I was at one session once (actually three separate sessions not quite merging into one) where there were a bunch of young musos who only played modern, mostly scottish stuff, in sets straight off of CDs.
I don't think it was snobbery on their part, I think they genuinely didn't know any of the older tunes, even the most common onces like "the maind behind the bar" etc.
Actually twas an odd night all round.
- chris
# Posted on March 10th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
I would say there is a big difference in the repertoire of those under around 30 and those over that age in Scotland. The older generation have a bigger percentage of Irish tunes than now. I think the main reason for this would be the RSAMD, the Feis movement and prolific contemporary composers like Gordon Duncan, Charlie MacKerron, Fred Morrison, Donald Shaw, etc. In some sessions the tunes can be almost all Scottish as opposed to twenty or so years ago when it could be as much as half and half.
# Posted on March 10th 2009 by bogman
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Interesting observation, Bogman. Why would the RSAMD and Feis movement cause younger players to play more contemporary Scottish tunes? What goes on in those organizations which lends itself to that?
I know a fair few people who have never attended RSAMD or been part of the Feis but who have a repertoire very heavily oriented towards modern Scottish tunes. To me it seems that these are the tunes getting played, so they are the ones people learn. The more they are played, the more people will play them. Why these sorts of tunes get that momentum (Im not saying they aren't good tunes -- many are) and not say, old Donegal fiddle tunes, I've not been around long enough to even have a theory. But I guess that's the question.
I've definitely walked into a session and had people look at me nervously and say, "Uhhh.... we don't really know any Irish tunes."
# Posted on March 10th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
It's not that hard to explain. It's a simple fact that when I was learning traditional music - early 1970s - there was much more exciting music coming out of Ireland then than Scotland. At that time we were almost totally reliant on commercial recordings , and the odd radio or TV programme for building a repertoire. Far more recordings of traditional music were being made in Ireland than in Scotland. Scottish bands such as "Silly Wizard", "Battlefield Band", "Tannahill Weavers" were very much influenced , and inspired , by what was coming out of Ireland at the time. The number of recordings of traditional music being released in Scotland today is almost equal to that in Ireland, so that's bound to have an effect on the current repertoire. I'm not so sure that the effect of the Feis and RSAMD is greater than the overall availability of music by the mass media and the internet. But hey - Scottish musicians playing Scottish music has to be a good thing, and I'd rather they played Scottish tunes well than Irish tunes badly.
Sorry if this has strayed a bit from the original discussion.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by Kenny
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
you might try "the diggers" - see sessions
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
No problem with folks playing scottish tunes.
Hopefully though people will grow out of *only* playing sets of recent tunes as recorded on the latest CD, and exactly the same arrangements. Otherwise it can be like going to a tribute band concert. Then again if that is what the kids want to do thne fairplay to them, everyone is entitled to their fun.
- chris
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Rambling Pitchfork has "No problem with folks playing scottish tunes".
I should think NOT, especially if they're playing in sessions within Scotland.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
"Hey, lets play that tune in A? You know the one, the one with 5 parts that are all the same?"
"Yep, OK. What shall we follow it with? That one in A, the one with 5 parts that are all the same?"
"Yeah. And we can finnish off with that one in A, the one with 5 parts that are all the same?"
......
"Great. What next? A?"
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ...
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
"You touched your bottom two strings yet tonight?"
"Yeah."
"Really? what tune?"
"That one with 5 parts that are all the same."
"But it's in A isn't it?"
"Yeah I know. I was playing it an octave lower for a bit of variety."
"duh."
.....
"Jigs?"
"Key?"
"A"
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ...
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Er, I did think NOT Jon Jay. That's what I posted. But thanks for clearing up any ambiguity that you may have percieved
Although it *could* have been described as particularly bad manners on the particular occasion I was hinting at above.
Ok, well seein' as you aske...
...one week just before xmas, without any prior contact (well maybe with the pub, but not the session) a bus (literally a hired bus) of musos we'd never met turned up at our then session. The guys that turned up were in two quite distinct, though friendly camps: a group of about a dozen in a singesr circle complete with wrods written out on refence sheets, and about a dozen late-teens/early 20s instrumentalists that played exclusively (though not I hasten to add through snobbery) only modern scottish tunes as featured on the latest CD.
Twas an odd night to say the least as there were a simuilar number of regulars (95% trad irish repertior, all old friends) and a couple of visitors back from the states on a catch up re-union.
Effectively three sessions ran that night: the singers & two mutually exclusive instrumental crowd (both of whom did try to find common ground).
Luckily we're quite a laid back bunch of people and saw the funny side of it. The visitors were all nice guys and the night was quite fun.
But....
How lacking in social skills is it to hire a bus (for fecks sake!) and parachute 20-odd visitors into a session without any arrangement? The visitors told us, that this was an annual event. Ever xmas they would "visit" a session in another town that they found out about through listings/the web/wherever. Usually in Scotland, sometimes in Ireland: "Happy Xmas One and All! We've come to take over your party"
>insert puzzled looking smiley<
- Chris
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Of course, it's bad form to hijack a session and impose your own tunes. There's no harm in musicians playing Irish music in Scottish pubs either especially if they werre there first.
Thanks, I know what you meant now.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Actually, we played two scottish tunes last night. Newly composed, well, 25 years anyway. They were in A of course, but neither of them had any G sharps, which makes it OK
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ...
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Re: ""Really? what tune?"
"That one with 5 parts that are all the same."
"But it's in A isn't it?"" etc,
LOL.
That said, I have been informed at one point that all Dmix jigs sound the same so it is all down to perspective.
Last night we were balancing Scottish and Irish tunes very well, but it only worked because a few folk in the session know zillions of tunes from both sides of the Irish Sea. More often than not, sessions with a mix of Scottish and Irish players (this is sort of modern construction since a lot of the same tunes can be found in 18th and 19th C Scottish and Irish tune collections but I digress) end up in Chris' two-sessions-in-one scenario. The music bounces between two or more groups or individuals and never gets any energy as a cohesive unit.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
And I maintain that all (or at least a lot of) D mix jigs do sound the same, if played badly they are a muddy drag and if they have 5 or even 7(!!!) parts then I want to cry!
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Dmix jigs may not be your favourites but they constitute the bollux of my dog. (although they don't all have to have a gazillion parts).
- chris
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
but reels in amaj: bleach
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
that's as in bleee-ach, yuk.
Not as in the stuff that platinises hair.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Spear, I didn't mean the RSAMD and Feis movements cause younger players to play more contemporary tunes but that it's almost all Scottish tunes that are taught at a Feis, and rightly so. RSAMD studens, as you would expect specialize in Scottish tunes as you would expect. That coupled with new compositions have brought about the change IMO. I agree with Kenny in that 20 or 30 years ago the more exiting music was coming out of Ireland and folk learned lots of Irish tunes. Coming from Skye, I and people around me learned extensive Scottish repertoires first coming from a ceilidh and piping background but were lured by the exiting new (to us) souds from Ireland. There were few folkie style bands other than the ones Kenny mentioned who really caught the attention. Now there are lots and lots of bands to all sorts of tastes to be heard playing Scottish tunes.
The older tunes didn't disappear, they just went out of circulation for a while. Lots of really great Scottish tunes, despite Lligs derogatory remarks, are making a comeback at the moment as folk look for fresh things to play. The sheer number of people playing trad here is mind-boggling compared to when I was younger and everybody discovers at least some tunes new to them. Scottish tunes have even less info than Irish tunes when written down IMO and despite thousands of old tunes in collections you really have to hear them to find their beauty. So with a lot more bands recording old and new Scottish tunes it's hardly surprising that younger players are playing tunes that are more closely linked to their own culture. Irish tunes are really part of the tradition here now so it's fine if there are Scottish sessions with lots of Irish tunes but it would be wrong to 'expect' Irish tunes at a Scottish session. We have our own history, regional styles and culture too.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by bogman
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Crikey, post Tuesday night pub gig grammar, sorry.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by bogman
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Yes, I was surprised at all the Irish music in Scotland when I first arrived in the 70s but it sounds right what Kenny said, that most people learned off , or were inspired by, recordings, and Ireland is where all the new recordings were coming from at the time
Multi-part pipe tunes translated to fiddle, or that kind of thing, with slight but crucial variations between parts sound great to me
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by Bren
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
In spite of finding Michael's comments funny, I actually do play some Scottish tunes (some of you lot have seen my attempts) and obviously like them -- otherwise I wouldn't play them. The origins of many of the tunes is debateable anyway. And as I alluded in my last post, putting boxes around the music doesn't really make sense since tunes have freely wandered between Ireland and Scotland with emigration. But the reality now is that there are boxes around it. I'm working out which sessions I get on well at, whilst playing tunes I want to play based on whether I like them and the physical limitations of the instrument (there are a few) rather than anything else. It just so happens sessions I get on best often (but not always) have more Irish tunes.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Scottish Music Sessions in Edinburgh.
Thanks people.
I'm visiting Edinburgh in the middle of May so I'll have a look around.
# Posted on March 11th 2009 by Gallowglass